should racket face angle remain constant during the "hitting zone"?

[dominikk1985]

I have seen an interesting video posted by topspin shot. it states that the racket angle should stay constant during the hitting zone (maybe 15 inches before till 5 inches after contact or so)

do you think that the best players are doing that, especially on FHs? or is the racket angle changing approaching contact or after contact?

to me it sometimes looks like the racket is very closed in the PTD, then more open as it gets into the slot and then sometimes closing again a little but I'm not sure.

what do you think?

 

[JohnMartin]

topspin is right.

the same principle applies to basically all the shots, fh, bh, volleys.

even some types of serves.

 

[DefensiveTennis]

Sigh another one of these threads that will be filled with technical image analysis bs.

I just want my racquet face to be appropriate to the shot I want to hit at contact. I dont want to hit it up to the sky (open) or hit it down into the ground (closed).

 

[dominikk1985]

here is a mega slow motion by nadal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2IduNtpE5I

he seems to change the racket angle quite a bit from PTD to the "slot" (maximum wrist layback) but from then on keep the racket angle quite constant till contact. after contact it seems to close a little.

 

[spun_out]

Sigh another one of these threads that will be filled with technical image analysis bs.

I just want my racquet face to be appropriate to the shot I want to hit at contact. I dont want to hit it up to the sky (open) or hit it down into the ground (closed).

I agree to the extent that I believe the racquet face angle shouldn't be something that is micro-managed. Yes, it should probably be kept near a specific angle just before and after contact. I like to use the base of my thumb as a reference point and try to move this in a static upward angle.

With this said, I wouldn't be so dismissive of such threads. The bottom line is tennis as an industry is so bad at so many things compared to other sports, including golf, and coaching is definitely at the top. If a coach can fix such issues or answer such questions, then there would be no need for such threads or even desire to find out the answer for oneself. I for one do not trust a coach to fix my stroke. I would rather ask the posters here. I am not dismissing all coaches. No doubt there are very good ones, some who post here, but by and large, they are the minority. All I see on the public courts are coaches who are destroying the future development of young kids from the start. Sorry for the rant, but I feel that tennis as it stands now is a sport you need to try to improve on your own (and through the help of others who are just as dedicated as those on this forum). It would certainly be better if there was a coach who can give you immediate and direct feedback, but most do not have that opportunity.

 

[rkelley]

I have seen an interesting video posted by topspin shot. it states that the racket angle should stay constant during the hitting zone (maybe 15 inches before till 5 inches after contact or so)

do you think that the best players are doing that, especially on FHs? or is the racket angle changing approaching contact or after contact?

to me it sometimes looks like the racket is very closed in the PTD, then more open as it gets into the slot and then sometimes closing again a little but I'm not sure.

what do you think?

I don't know what the exact measurements are, but YES, you want to establish the plane of the racquet before contact and maintain that plane through the contact zone.

Do not attempt to roll the racquet over or under the ball to generate spin. All you'll generate is inconsistency.

 

[Topspin Shot]

I think you all know what my take on this is. In a nutshell, the racket face angle usually remains constant from the end of the lag phase to the top of the windshield wiper arc. Of course, there will be shots where the face varies a little, but these are more by accident than anything else. By keeping the strings facing the target throughout the swing arc and brushing up on the ball for heavy topspin, you can swing as fast and relaxed as you want while making very few errors.

 

[julian]

Heath Waters and double handed backhand

I think you all know what my take on this is. In a nutshell, the racket face angle usually remains constant from the end of the lag phase to the top of the windshield wiper arc. Of course, there will be shots where the face varies a little, but these are more by accident than anything else. By keeping the strings facing the target throughout the swing arc and brushing up on the ball for heavy topspin, you can swing as fast and relaxed as you want while making very few errors.

Please see
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=485248&page=2
post #35
and a corresponding video by Heath Waters.
It is more related to doublehanded backhand that to your post above.

 

[dominikk1985]

Please see
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=485248&page=2
post #35
and a corresponding video by Heath Waters.
It is more related to doublehanded backhand that to your post above.

could you please make a one sentence summary ("yes, study has shown that, see xy et. al") instead of just cross refering? it really is bad for reading experience if I have to click two links to get an answer because post 35 is another cross reference and the waters video while very good doesn't really mention racket angle either)

should the racket face remain constant or not?

this is not to pick on you as I like your posts but if there are 5 different interlaced cross references it gets hard to read. I realize you have limited time but a one sentence essence doesn't take too much time and really makes for a better reading (and it will silence some of the anti science guys).

 

[dominikk1985]

bump my thread with this picture since it got lost in the flame wars of the other thread

It seems like the racket angle indeed stays constant over most of the hitting zone and also remains at the same angle after contact unless you hit below or above center. there seems to be no "rolling" of the racket face.



Images of fed and nadal from those two vids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1sIydMZiXo&hd=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6icR4QaI84&hd=1

 

[dominikk1985]

strings always face the net during the "roll finish" but there is a very slight closing caused by below center contact here (I doubt it is intentionally).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmtkSzhB8GI&hd=1

what is interesting to see is that they while they don't close the face while swinging the racket face mostly seems to be slightly closed throughout the whole stroke. probably to make the launch angle lower.

if you hit a rising and spinning ball with a 30-45 degrees upswing but only want like a 5 degrees launch angle you might need to close the racketface a little.

for rec players who don't hit as much on the rise against lesser spinning balls (the topspin wants to make the ball roll up the strings causing a higher launch angle- table tennis players know that well because the lighter ball increases that effect) a more vertical angle might be more usefull.

 

[Topspin Shot]

strings always face the net during the "roll finish" but there is a very slight closing caused by below center contact here (I doubt it is intentionally).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmtkSzhB8GI&hd=1

what is interesting to see is that they while they don't close the face while swinging the racket face mostly seems to be slightly closed throughout the whole stroke. probably to make the launch angle lower.

if you hit a rising and spinning ball with a 30-45 degrees upswing but only want like a 5 degrees launch angle you might need to close the racketface a little.

for rec players who don't hit as much on the rise against lesser spinning balls (the topspin wants to make the ball roll up the strings causing a higher launch angle- table tennis players know that well because the lighter ball increases that effect) a more vertical angle might be more usefull.

You're right about this. Higher level players are slightly closed (maybe 5 degrees of so) in the hitting zone to counter the lift effect from hitting and returning topspin. But it's just easier to tell someone to keep the face vertical, and if they're getting too much net clearance that they've got the face too open.

 

[dominikk1985]

You're right about this. Higher level players are slightly closed (maybe 5 degrees of so) in the hitting zone to counter the lift effect from hitting and returning topspin. But it's just easier to tell someone to keep the face vertical, and if they're getting too much net clearance that they've got the face too open.

so they slightly closed face you often see is more for launch angle control rather than increasing spin?

 

[Topspin Shot]

so they slightly closed face you often see is more for launch angle control rather than increasing spin?

As a primary purpose, I would say so. That's a good point that it does increase spin, but players don't go, "I want more spin, so I should close the racket face more." If they want spin, they focus on brushing up more and working with the face they've got.

 

[5263]

But it's just easier to tell someone to keep the face vertical, and if they're getting too much net clearance that they've got the face too open.

I can agree with that, but also think you should relate it to amount of low to high, which is a factor as well. I'm convinced the more you work across the ball the less sensitive the shot is to small deviations in face angle.

 

[Topspin Shot]

I can agree with that, but also think you should relate it to amount of low to high, which is a factor as well. I'm convinced the more you work across the ball the less sensitive the shot is to small deviations in face angle.

Are you referring to putting sidespin on the ball intentionally (in which case are you talking about Nadal-esque hooks or Federer-esque inside out spin?), or are you talking about just emphasizing swinging across the body?

 

[boramiNYC]

Depends. When practicing in half court hitting very soft shots the window of rac face control can be much narrower than hitting pretty hard full court.

 

[5263]

Are you referring to putting sidespin on the ball intentionally (in which case are you talking about Nadal-esque hooks or Federer-esque inside out spin?), or are you talking about just emphasizing swinging across the body?

Imo they are sort of one in the same, but I avoid the term sidespin as it seems to confuse many posters and they think that means totally flat 3-6 oclock spin. I try to say diagonal spin to get the point across more clearly. They rarely if ever hit straight over the top spin due to the across aspect of the contact working the ball.

You would be a good one to try working across the ball more for attacking mid ct sitters with less launch angle for less net clearance but with precise control...

 

[Topspin Shot]

Imo they are sort of one in the same, but I avoid the term sidespin as it seems to confuse many posters and they think that means totally flat 3-6 oclock spin. I try to say diagonal spin to get the point across more clearly. They rarely if ever hit straight over the top spin due to the across aspect of the contact working the ball.

You would be a good one to try working across the ball more for attacking mid ct sitters with less launch angle for less net clearance but with precise control...

Are you talking about outside in diagonal spin (for example, Nadal's crosscourt hooks) or inside out diagonal spin (for example, Federer's inside out forehands)? I've never really understood which kind of spin you're talking about.

 

[5263]

Are you talking about outside in diagonal spin (for example, Nadal's crosscourt hooks) or inside out diagonal spin (for example, Federer's inside out forehands)? I've never really understood which kind of spin you're talking about.

Those are just 2 different types of Fh. I agree Nadal goes with the hooker crossct mostly, but not always. Either way, it takes an across the ball swing to get that spin. I don't use the hooker for crossct as much and mostly do that if my contact is a bit late and still want to get it back cross court. I use the hooker mostly DTL like Rafa and like to use the I/O spin for crossct as well as I/O.

Mainly I'm speaking of the I/o stroke and spin, as I feel that is the primary power Fh of the day, especially for attacking mid ct balls.

 

[Topspin Shot]

Those are just 2 different types of Fh. I agree Nadal goes with the hooker crossct mostly, but not always. Either way, it takes an across the ball swing to get that spin. I don't use the hooker for crossct as much and mostly do that if my contact is a bit late and still want to get it back cross court. I use the hooker mostly DTL like Rafa and like to use the I/O spin for crossct as well as I/O.

Mainly I'm speaking of the I/o stroke and spin, as I feel that is the primary power Fh of the day, especially for attacking mid ct balls.

This makes sense. I'll try to feel around with it on the balls I look to attack. Thank you.

 

[5263]

Topspin, do you think of your normal rally shot as topspin right over the top? I suspect you do and that is part of what gives you such a high trajectory. I also think your intent for shaping the shot is a big factor, but much of that may have grown out of concern for hitting too close to net or into it.

I think by adjusting the diagonal or across aspect of your swing...you can get more or less trajectory and control your net clearance with more precision. This is a big key in learning to attack mid ct balls aggressively with consistency...avoiding the yo-you of hitting long or in the net too often, which can force you to back off your power too much, and get too concerned with face angle.... to be effective with the attacks. Make any sense to you?

 

[Topspin Shot]

Topspin, do you think of your normal rally shot as topspin right over the top? I suspect you do and that is part of what gives you such a high trajectory. I also think your intent for shaping the shot is a big factor, but much of that may have grown out of concern for hitting too close to net or into it.

I think by adjusting the diagonal or across aspect of your swing...you can get more or less trajectory and control your net clearance with more precision. This is a big key in learning to attack mid ct balls aggressively with consistency...avoiding the yo-you of hitting long or in the net too often, which can force you to back off your power too much to be effective with the attacks. Make any sense to you?

You would be right. I'll see what I can do to get more inside out action and hopefully more aggression on my shots.

 

[5263]

You would be right. I'll see what I can do to get more inside out action and hopefully more aggression on my shots.

Good....may take some experimenting, but you should be able to harness a bit more driving power along with being able to even hit out a bit more with the net clearance control this should help to provide.

The hooker spin is a bit more trick and lends to more spin/arc imo...which fits certain situations better than others...Nadal tends to combine his hooker with his Rev alot, so he uses the hooker more often. BUT...Working with the I/O stroke should be THE big key to hitting a flatter driving Fh with more precise net clearance control. You can swing almost horizontal when you really after it and it can be sort of a driving powerful WW Fh.

 

[TennisCJC]

so they slightly closed face you often see is more for launch angle control rather than increasing spin?

I think slightly closed face helps with launch angle and spin.

I think the face maintains a relatively consistent angle just before, during, and after contact too.

 

[Power Player]

I have always closed the racquet face a hair due to my SW/W grip. Only time that comes back to bite me is if I rush a shot and end up clipping the inside of the frame due to the racquet being too closed. I still close the face too much sometimes and it is annoying.

 

[DefensiveTennis]

This makes sense. I'll try to feel around with it on the balls I look to attack. Thank you.

Being a little more aggressive might help you make the push to the top of the 4.5 level.

 

[Topspin Shot]

Being a little more aggressive might help you make the push to the top of the 4.5 level.

The awkward moment when hacks think they know more than a coach and d1 college tennis player.

Which D1 college do you play for?

 

[DefensiveTennis]

Which D1 college do you play for?

Dont wish to say, as my name is on the roster which I dont want to reveal.

 

[Topspin Shot]

Dont wish to say, as my name is on the roster which I dont want to reveal.

Did you get the chance to hit with the team before you committed? If so, how did it go?

 

[tennisbike]

I belief this thread can be remove permanently since it is meaningless to discuss what you can do in the short span of 5 ms with the racket face.

The real question is how to hit with the same racket face angle shot after shot, even with the same incoming ball.