Should rec. players be attempting techniques like those on "virtual... and High-tech"

[tricky]

nd only since my last thread have I been working on the 'pulling racquet through the ball by leading it with the hand' idea.

For me, this visualization helps with the takeback and slotting the forward swing. Basically I imagine a side fence or imaginary line close to some point on my body. When I do the entire stroke, I don't want that point in body to touch that fence. Then by going through a progression, everything gets synced up.

1) During takeback and forward swing, imagine the fence close to the right hand. When you do this, you will notice that your focal point is the elbow. This is leading the stroke with the elbow.

2) Now, imagine the fence close to the right elbow. You will then notice the focal point is the shoulder. Leading the stroke with the shoulder. At this point, you will notice the stroke is whippier and more abbreviate.

3) Now, imagine the fence close to the right shoulder. The focal point will be your hips. At this point, you have synced up your unit turn with the shoulder stroke, and you now have a more effortless swing with consistently deep shoulder rotation.

4) Now, imagine the fence close to the right foot *and* shoulder. In your forward swing, you imagine both the right foot and shoulder going forward without touching the fence. At this point, you've synced up your stance and leg drive with the unit turn and rotation. You are also driving through the ball now.

5) Finally, imagine the fence close to the belly button. In your takeback, you want to make sure the belly button doesn't cross the line. You will notice that during your takeback, you will sit in order to coil the body properly. When you drive forward, don't let the belly button cross over this line. You will notice that you lift forward and up in order to protect that line. Sit and lift.

The last step is hard to visualize, but by step 4 you pretty much have the complete thing. Instead of manually coiling back or swinging "harder", you just move the line. In order to get a deeper takeback and to accelerate the forward swing, you just visualize the line closer to that point. In order to accentuate whippiness and thus overall racquet speed, you move that point from hand-to-elbow-to-shoulder-to-leg-belly button.

 

[habib]

For me, this visualization helps with the takeback and slotting the forward swing. Basically I imagine a side fence or imaginary line close to some point on my body. When I do the entire stroke, I don't want that point in body to touch that fence. Then by going through a progression, everything gets synced up.

1) During takeback and forward swing, imagine the fence close to the right hand. When you do this, you will notice that your focal point is the elbow. This is leading the stroke with the elbow.

2) Now, imagine the fence close to the right elbow. You will then notice the focal point is the shoulder. Leading the stroke with the shoulder. At this point, you will notice the stroke is whippier and more abbreviate.

3) Now, imagine the fence close to the right shoulder. The focal point will be your hips. At this point, you have synced up your unit turn with the shoulder stroke, and you now have a more effortless swing with consistently deep shoulder rotation.

4) Now, imagine the fence close to the right foot *and* shoulder. In your forward swing, you imagine both the right foot and shoulder going forward without touching the fence. At this point, you've synced up your stance and leg drive with the unit turn and rotation. You are also driving through the ball now.

5) Finally, imagine the fence close to the belly button. In your takeback, you want to make sure the belly button doesn't cross the line. You will notice that during your takeback, you will sit in order to coil the body properly. When you drive forward, don't let the belly button cross over this line. You will notice that you lift forward and up in order to protect that line. Sit and lift.

The last step is hard to visualize, but by step 4 you pretty much have the complete thing. Instead of manually coiling back or swinging "harder", you just move the line. In order to get a deeper takeback and to accelerate the forward swing, you just visualize the line closer to that point. In order to accentuate whippiness and thus overall racquet speed, you move that point from hand-to-elbow-to-shoulder-to-leg-belly button.

Just confirming that this is all BH slice advice?

 

[tricky]

Oh, that's all about the forehand. I thought you were talking about the FH, actually.

 

[carazymcmahon]

Welcome.


In the example of the baseball pitcher, for instance, the leg drive allows his body to catapult his arm forward faster, but also moves his entire body forward as well, adding that acceleration to the overall speed of his arm - one reason why you can generally hit a harder serve when you toss the ball into the court rather than just above you.

I'm not disagreeing with any of the tennis stuff you said, but a pitcher barely uses any leg drive at all.

 

[habib]

I'm not disagreeing with any of the tennis stuff you said, but a pitcher barely uses any leg drive at all.

This is, in fact, totally untrue. Just as in tennis and so many other sports where the upper body appears to reign supreme, pitchers actually obtain much of their velocity from the leg drive. Though, as in tennis and those other sports, the importance of the leg drive has been a relatively recent discovery.

 

[stormholloway]

The legs contain the strongest muscles in the body. So if you let your legs initiate the kinetic chain the result will be more energy/power.

 

[carazymcmahon]

This is, in fact, totally untrue. Just as in tennis and so many other sports where the upper body appears to reign supreme, pitchers actually obtain much of their velocity from the leg drive. Though, as in tennis and those other sports, the importance of the leg drive has been a relatively recent discovery.

I didn't say that upper body was more important, I just said that legs are barely used to push (leg drive).
I agree with what stormholloway said as to initiating the motion, but a pitcher can throw hard because of momentum - from the leg lifting, delayed hip and shoulder rotation and a long stride. Yes you have to use your legs for endurance reasons, but there is still barely any push off the rubber.

but hey, this is a a tennis thing, not pitching.

 

[carazymcmahon]

the push and pull stuff is really interesting btw

 

[spc9999]

I didn't say that upper body was more important, I just said that legs are barely used to push (leg drive).
I agree with what stormholloway said as to initiating the motion, but a pitcher can throw hard because of momentum - from the leg lifting, delayed hip and shoulder rotation and a long stride. Yes you have to use your legs for endurance reasons, but there is still barely any push off the rubber.

That's not true. You could see if it were: pitchers wouldn't be falling off the mound after each pitch. Gaining momentum would not require more than a gentle movement.

Pitchers such as Clemens and Seaver are described by the amount of power they generate from the legs.

 

[habib]

I didn't say that upper body was more important, I just said that legs are barely used to push (leg drive).
I agree with what stormholloway said as to initiating the motion, but a pitcher can throw hard because of momentum - from the leg lifting, delayed hip and shoulder rotation and a long stride. Yes you have to use your legs for endurance reasons, but there is still barely any push off the rubber.

but hey, this is a a tennis thing, not pitching.

I know you didn't say the upper body was more important, and I don't think I claimed any such thing either.
However, I believe that you are wrong, and that there is in fact significant leg drive and that it contributes greatly to how hard you throw the ball. It's that initial drive off the back leg and step off the mound with the front leg that provides the momentum for a pitcher. Just as in tennis, the upper body is in many ways reactionary in that it doesn't and really shouldn't generate much energy on its own, but rather transfer that energy which the legs provide.

If you play baseball and do not push off the rubber when initiating the release, perhaps you should try it. The few sources I dug up in a 3 second google search fully support this, and I'm sure were I to buy books on the subject, they'd say the same.

Edit: I should probably add, in reference to your comment above, that - where do you think the hip rotation comes from?

 

[carazymcmahon]

Edit: I should probably add, in reference to your comment above, that - where do you think the hip rotation comes from?

from the hip
haha

that was just my opinion on leg drive from the things I've read. I watched a video of myself and it appears that I do push a little, but it just happens, I dont think about pushing, maybe it's time to read up a little more.

I think we should get back to the push and pull stuff

I know you didn't say the upper body was more important, and I don't think I claimed any such thing either

I know, sorry about that.

 

[habib]

from the hip
haha

that was just my opinion on leg drive from the things I've read. I watched a video of myself and it appears that I do push a little, but it just happens, I dont think about pushing, maybe it's time to read up a little more.

Well that's basically how it should work - you don't think about it. You just do it. This is where 90% of my tennis problems originate.

I think we should get back to the push and pull stuff

Good idea.

I know, sorry about that.

No problem.

 

[tricky]

I think we should get back to the push and pull stuff

In regards to pitching, I think it comes from the release point. If you're using a overhand delivery or somewhere near the 3/4, then you're using a "push" style and leg drive is key. If you're throwing sidearm or submarine, you're probably using a "pull" and then your coil is key. I don't know about guys like Pedro Martinez or Francisco Rodriguez, their arm slot is really, really low and they have a tight coil.

 

[habib]

In regards to pitching, I think it comes from the release point. If you're using a overhand delivery or somewhere near the 3/4, then you're using a "push" style and leg drive is key. If you're throwing sidearm or submarine, you're probably using a "pull" and then your coil is key. I don't know about guys like Pedro Martinez or Francisco Rodriguez, their arm slot is really, really low and they have a tight coil.

I don't know, it seems the hip turn initiated by the drive is what propels the throwing arm in either case, except maybe for the real underhanders.

 

[tricky]

I don't know, it seems the hip turn initiated by the drive is what propels the throwing arm in either case, except maybe for the real underhanders.

With guys like Clemens and Erig Gagne who uses a more overhand delivery, it's really the leg drive that charges this. The turn is important so that the arm doesn't come around prematurely before the arm speed is where it should be. When pitchers pitch from the stretch, they give up some of the hip turn in but keep the leg drive. As the release point gets lower, the hip turn becomes bigger and more necessary in the motion.

 

[habib]

With guys like Clemens and Erig Gagne who uses a more overhand delivery, it's really the leg drive that charges this. The turn is important so that the arm doesn't come around prematurely before the arm speed is where it should be. When pitchers pitch from the stretch, they give up some of the hip turn in but keep the leg drive. As the release point gets lower, the hip turn becomes bigger and more necessary in the motion.

But wouldn't the leg drive power the hip turn in either case? Arrgh who cares, anyway. It's not even a sport, it's a game.

 

[tricky]

But wouldn't the leg drive power the hip turn in either case?

In most cases yes, because most people throw overhand style. It's different in the submarine style, though. The twist tends to lead everything.

I *think* it's also indicative by the nature of the leg kick. If you're leading everything by leg drive, your leg kick will be more spread out. If you're leading by twist, your leg kick will be really in and tight. There's also some correlation between this and angle of release point.

It's not even a sport, it's a game.

Touche

 

[ipodtennispro]

Ron Milenko

Skiing is another sport where this happens. Teach everyone the snowplow. Send them to the top of the mountain. Then they are stuck with this weird form of skiing forever.

Good skiiers get their skis parallel and this opens up a world of skiing that the slowplowers will never experience. I've seen this so many times where people will never get their skis parallel after learning the snowplow method.

There is a great book about this beginner technique problem in skiing called "Breakthrough on the New Skis 3 Ed: Say Goodbye to the Intermediate Blues by Lito Tejada-Flores". It reminds me A LOT of Dave's philosophy and teaching experience in his book, which is subtitled "Beyond the 3.5 Level and Never Look Back".

Jeff, I can't slow down the video of Ron's backhand, however, it doesn't look like he is using an eastern backhand grip. So, naturally the face is going to open a bit. He clearly looks like he is trying to hit over the ball so the grip is critical here. What grip is he using? Looks like a continental or close to it.

This is why, like you said, everyone should get their strokes video taped. Players benefit tremendously from this kind of feedback.

 

[Potito]

For me, this visualization helps with the takeback and slotting the forward swing. Basically I imagine a side fence or imaginary line close to some point on my body. When I do the entire stroke, I don't want that point in body to touch that fence. Then by going through a progression, everything gets synced up.

1) During takeback and forward swing, imagine the fence close to the right hand. When you do this, you will notice that your focal point is the elbow. This is leading the stroke with the elbow.

2) Now, imagine the fence close to the right elbow. You will then notice the focal point is the shoulder. Leading the stroke with the shoulder. At this point, you will notice the stroke is whippier and more abbreviate.

3) Now, imagine the fence close to the right shoulder. The focal point will be your hips. At this point, you have synced up your unit turn with the shoulder stroke, and you now have a more effortless swing with consistently deep shoulder rotation.

4) Now, imagine the fence close to the right foot *and* shoulder. In your forward swing, you imagine both the right foot and shoulder going forward without touching the fence. At this point, you've synced up your stance and leg drive with the unit turn and rotation. You are also driving through the ball now.

5) Finally, imagine the fence close to the belly button. In your takeback, you want to make sure the belly button doesn't cross the line. You will notice that during your takeback, you will sit in order to coil the body properly. When you drive forward, don't let the belly button cross over this line. You will notice that you lift forward and up in order to protect that line. Sit and lift.

The last step is hard to visualize, but by step 4 you pretty much have the complete thing. Instead of manually coiling back or swinging "harder", you just move the line. In order to get a deeper takeback and to accelerate the forward swing, you just visualize the line closer to that point. In order to accentuate whippiness and thus overall racquet speed, you move that point from hand-to-elbow-to-shoulder-to-leg-belly button.

Tricky, GREAT ADVICE!!! Sincerely, thank you for your posts.

 

[habib]

Incidentally, Tricky, for puposes of visualization: When you are talking about the imaginery fence, what is its orientation? Is it parallel to the sideline? Does it even matter?

 

[tricky]

Is it parallel to the sideline? Does it even matter?

Parallel to sideline. Now, if you were to really get this down (i.e. where you're synced it with the belly button/core), then this imaginary fence essentially becomes the path of the incoming ball. You imagine parallel line of the ball through the center of your belly button. Then you takeback with the belly button, making sure the belly button (really, the right side of the belly button) doesn't touch this line. And when you drive forward -- with the belly button -- you do the same.

That belly button is essentially the core. And, so, now, you are aiming, holding the takeback, and driving with the core as your focal point. This sets up your unit turn, the angle of your open stance, and coordinates the torso rotation with the leg drive.

The key is to go through the entire progression. The last thing is the core, because when you arrive at the core as the focal point of your stroke, you have a completely integrated stroke. At this point, you have a very compact motion, but you're maxing out the rotational elements in the stroke.

If in the future you want to try different kind of swing styles, you start with that swing, and then you go through the progression to integrate that swing with your body. Or you can drop certain steps out in order to change the mechanics of the stroke toward a more "classical" style.

That all said, this is something I do to make sure everything is synced up, and also to reverse engineer pro strokes. It gives me structure. I'm doing this to kinda break down what Gasquet, and I think I've gotten close to it.

Edit 2.0:

I should mention that you can keep adding stages until you find a focal point that works for you. For example, the next step after the belly button/core is the hips/pelvis.

That is, if you try taking back and driving the belly button against the wall, you'll notice it's the pelvis that aids this movement. It also makes sit and lift very natural part of the stroke.

And, so, you use the pelvis to line up the core against the path. After the pelvis, the next step is around the left shoulder blade and neck. If you want to "slot" the left shoulder, then you turn the neck through the takeback. If you stop here, where the area helps to move the pelvis back, you still have a "still head", where you're kinda looking over your left shoulder to "aim" at the ball.

The final step is to turn your head in the stroke itself, which is considered a big no-no. But I *think* this is what Federer does himself, and at least theoretically the advantage is that now you just watch the path of the ball and everything else kinda flows naturally. In order to arrive here, you'd have to nail down the rest of the progression, which itself gets harder as you add each stage.