Strings matter more than the frame does.

[kiteboard]

I've played with babs, and heads, and wilsons, and yamahas, and etc. I've played with poly, and syn gut, and gut, global gut, pac, klip, victor superb, vs team, vs all season, vs etc., and ribbon, and copolys, and nylons, and cheap japanese string, and lux, alu, adrenaline, bbo, ace 18g, timo, alu rough bbo rough, etc, and kevlar, and sppp, and cyber flash, and prince, and gamma, and solinco, and iso speed, and head rip, and intellitour and ashaway, and kirschbaum, and redcode, blackcode, and vs, and duralast, and pac. gut, poly force extreme, and bam, x1, nxt, and og, and spiky shark, etc.

Strings matter more than the frame does. No matter how stiff the frame, no matter how flexy, no matter how open or closed, or modifed with silicone, lead tape, balanced swing wts, etc, string matters more than the frame. Why is that? It's not like a violin out there. The best violin will sound like **** without good gut string. ETc. for all string based instruments. Why do they all sound best with gut? Frequency, connection to the bed. Vibration. Feel. Sound is related to our game. A piano uses metal string, why not gut? Tens. loss occurs with the best piano tuner/string/instrument. You can have the best frame, and it will play like **** with bad string. You can have great string, and the worst frame from costco/walmart/kmart will play great. That's why.

 

[ManuGinobili]

I think is more of the matter of, the variation in modern rackets is not as big as the variation in strings.

As an example, would you be able to beat a 4.0 using a wooden racket and he uses whatever he picks, both of you stringing vs gut/blackcode?

 

[Agent Orynge]

The player > everything else.

 

[Irvin]

...Strings matter more than the frame does...

You are usually right on but this time you missed the target. First and foremost is the player. The top ranked players could play with a ping pong paddle and beat a lot of players. Second (I like to think) is the person that strings the frame. Third is the frame. If any frame would do someone would be playing with wooden rackets. Fourth come back to the first again it is the player's idea of what the 'hit' should feel like. If the everything does not go together the way the player thinks it should feel all is lost. The string is last.

Irvin

 

[pvaudio]

You are usually right on but this time you missed the target. First and foremost is the player. The top ranked players could play with a ping pong paddle and beat a lot of players. Second (I like to think) is the person that strings the frame. Third is the frame. If any frame would do someone would be playing with wooden rackets. Fourth come back to the first again it is the player's idea of what the 'hit' should feel like. If the everything does not go together the way the player thinks it should feel all is lost. The string is last.

Irvin

I'm sorry, but with all due respect, how is that even relevant? The topic wasn't whether the strings are more important than the player's skill, it was strings vs. frame. And I agree. While good strings cannot make a bad frame feel better, bad strings can make ANY frame feel absolutely awful. That's proof enough.

 

[fgs]

1. every player is different hence feels different.
2. I DO NOT AGREE that the string matters more than the frame. i've started to play tennis some 40 years ago. there were quite a lot of wooden frames around at that time too. when i started to "feel" (i mean consciously) the racquet (and the strings) i understood that there are huge differences in the frames (today too!). there was not much choice in strings at that time, you had the vs (still around today), the victor imperial for gut and a few nylon strings (syn gut). so, i dare say that i played some awful frames with gut and some good frames with the same gut (donnay allwood, borg pro, slazenger challenge no.1, dunlop maxply fort for instace - classic high quality racquets of the mid to end '70).
3. I DO NOT AGREE that the racquet matters more than the string. the reasoning is the same as above, but i dare say to a lesser extent. a borg pro strung with a syn gut would still perform much better than a romanian local brand "pluto" with vs.
according to my experience, some frames blend well with some strings, other strings with other frames. it's all about finding the right combination for your style of play and for your technique.
i may give you just the following example - the length of the racquets is basically the same as it was when i started the game. i tuned my strokes on the sweetspot available in those tiny wooden racquets. when i was about 20 midsized racquets (players racquets) started to hit the market (graphite and even wooden - prince woodie, slazenger guillermo vilas).
while there are a few 95-98 frames i really like, i can't hit with them, because i hit in the upper third and they are simply too harsh. the only frames i can play with are soft 104-106 frames. i usually break the 6th or 7th cross string in my hybrid set-ups (this is to illustrate the sweetspot issue i made earlier with the small wooden frames).
so, what i need is a racquet that is forgiving and a string that when constantly hit off-center isn't harsh. now, maybe some of you better understand that everything is important: foremost the player with his technique (the player being a "constant") and then around this you have to build a racquet/string combination (of course not to forrget tension! which is part of the string) that blends well.

 

[Irvin]

...While good strings cannot make a bad frame feel better, bad strings can make ANY frame feel absolutely awful. That's proof enough.

I agree with what you are saying but I also think I could take a racket you love and strings you can't live without and make that feel terrible.

Irvin

 

[pvaudio]

I agree with what you are saying but I also think I could take a racket you love and strings you can't live without and make that feel terrible.

Irvin

Hah, I'm not arguing that, I did it myself when I first started stringing

 

[kiteboard]

I'm sorry, but with all due respect, how is that even relevant? The topic wasn't whether the strings are more important than the player's skill, it was strings vs. frame. And I agree. While good strings cannot make a bad frame feel better, bad strings can make ANY frame feel absolutely awful. That's proof enough.

Nail on the head. Pv has a future as a lawyer. And great strings can make a bad frame feel better imho. And bad strings/stringer can make a great frame feel awful. Why did all the top pros follow Lendl? It worked.

 

[vsbabolat]

The racquet is a lot more important than the strings. With out the racquet what would you put the strings in? This is a which came first a chicken and egg argument. I will go into detail a little later and give some examples. I don't have time now............

 

[kiteboard]

Anyone who has run good tires will remember and rave about them. Strings are nearly identical. Put bad tires on a great chasis, and the ride will be bad. Leave worn tires, that started out great, on a great chasis, and the ride will be dangerously bad, and not only will you lose, but you may crash and literally burn, and never play again. There is damn good reason they remove the tires quickly, not only do their lives depend on it, but their mortgage does too! Top pros have their string jobs dialed in exactly, and change quickly, and use fresh jobs no older than a day or so. Vijay used to stash his sticks strung with gut in the cold dark closet and remove them when they were ready six months later. He let them cure and come down.
So how do most of us relate to that? Not many are cutting out the jobs like I am, and restringing so many times with var. hybrids. Most just play with old string jobs and let their feet do the running, play defensively, and grind out a low powered consistent game, take few risks, and win by attrition.
Most of the guys playing usta are young enough and poor enough to live with that style of game.
Who can afford to cut $20 jobs out and spend 20 min. stringing every day?
High octane hitters take huge risks, and must have their equip. dialed in to a greater degree of perfection and it is a more rarefied air, but smells far sweeter, and feels more solid, and sounds more delicious, and more joyful, than the hacks will ever experience! Still, they win the lower levels most of the time. It's a long hard road to ho. When I gun down a hack, with power shots off both sides, and all court play, with 70mph volleys, and flat bh, and super top fh, with my fat belly, and see the look of shock, it's worth the money and time I spend, on my strings. I can hear them thinking, "This dude is fat and old and slow. How the hell did my **** not work on him?"

 

[kiteboard]

The real test, would be, to give Fed a costco stick, with his fav. strings/stringer, and give Nadal his reg. stick, and let Fed string it anyway he wants to, say, at 20 lbs, with bad string, and then we would have the answer to the debate..... Does anyone in their right mind, think, Nadal would win a single game?

 

[fgs]

kiteboard,
with all due respect (i'm in the 45+ league) your logic is perfect but flawed because it's unilateral. i agree that good tyres in a good chassis are superb. bad tyres in a good chassis are awful. so, i come to the conclusion that the tyres are the strings and the chassis is the racquet. so far so good for now.
the point was "what is more important, strings or frame". you have perfectly well and correctly described what happens when you put good strings and bad strings in a GOOD racquet. but this id just a part of the equation.
what is your take of bad strings and good strings in a bad racquet? only then can we come to a conclusion of which is more important: the racquet or the string.
you just have gone half the way and there is no doubt that a good string in a good racquet (good tyres in a good chassis) are to be preferred over a bad string in a good racquet.
i have played in the old days a donnay borg pro with a truly cheap nylon and have played with a pretty bad local racquet a crazy guy had strung with vs. i'd take the good raacquet with the bad strings anytime over the bad racquet with the good strings.

 

[kiteboard]

People don't intentionally play with a bad frame, but will with bad strings, at the wrong ten. for their game, with a punk kid at the shop stringing, who cares not a whit about them. That is a very common scenario, something we have all exp. who ever picked up a stick ever. A good frame with bad strings, vs a bad frame with good strings, will the points even out? It's not very complicated when you use common sense: our own exp.. That's why all the guys who buy pro stock and ***** about it are *****ing: the wrong strings/ten/stringer in a good frame! No one *****es when they have a great string job in a great frame! I've had the h22 strung with vs/alu by the guy who strings for Fed, and that is not troll. I've also had a costco stick, strung by the punk kid. Visualize Fed with a bad frame, great strings, against Nadal; good stick, bad strings at 35lbs. Who wins? That is the end of the debate, for all honest people anyway.

 

[Wilander Fan]

There was literally a 15 year gap between picking up a racket for me and its more the racket than the strings. For one thing, the biggest difference i noticed was the racket weight. You can really just whip the racket with your wrist now...forehands are like serves and you can create unbelievable spin just because of this. Also, because the rackets are so light, you almost dont need form or technique, You can hit a pretty good groundstroke with just your arm and wrist now. 15 years ago, you really needed your whole body to generate a good stroke.

There is no question the new strings feel great..the ball feels like it is sticking to the racket somehow but the end result is just alot of topspin which is kind of overrated now. One thing that I have learned is that not all stringers are the same. It doesnt matter how great your racket or strings are if your stringer thinks you cant tell the difference between 40lbs and 60lbs.

 

[Ambivalent]

I don't think this is true at all. I can immediately feel a difference if i pick up and try to hit with a racket lower than 11 oz. It's not solid, and i feel like the racket is spasming after contact. I can play with almost any string, since I use a worm dampener.
I would play much better with my MGPM strung with the cheapest string than with a ntour with natural gut. By experience.

 

[fgs]

i don't really have to visualize - i have three sticks, all modded and at that time i hade the same strings in them. i played a match against a quite good player. we went over three sets. bad luck had it that during that match all my racquets broke so at the beginning of the third i had to borrow a completely different racquet from another guy. the racquets could not be more different - mines were 106 nblades strung with kirschbaum competition and wilson sensation at that time, 23/22kg. the racquet i got for the third set was a head (completely different grip shape to start with) radical i think 95sq.in. 18x20 strung with lux bbo at 28/27. the string was dead at that time, the guy was boasting on how long it lasts and what big savings he's doing as he only breaks some 2-3 strings a year. i still managed to win. i think nadal can way better adjust to a known frame (balance!!!-swingweight!!!) with a awful string than fed to a new frame (new balance!!! - swingweight!!!) with the best string. but i don't think we should continue this example as it will be a never ending story.

 

[kiteboard]

If you take a bad chasis with great tires, and take a great chasis with bad tires, the great tires win every time due to the crash/burn effect! You aint going nowhere with a flat tire job, no matter who built your chasis, no matter how well you handle your suspension, you are going into the wall!

 

[kiteboard]

i don't really have to visualize - i have three sticks, all modded and at that time i hade the same strings in them. i played a match against a quite good player. we went over three sets. bad luck had it that during that match all my racquets broke so at the beginning of the third i had to borrow a completely different racquet from another guy. the racquets could not be more different - mines were 106 nblades strung with kirschbaum competition and wilson sensation at that time, 23/22kg. the racquet i got for the third set was a head (completely different grip shape to start with) radical i think 95sq.in. 18x20 strung with lux bbo at 28/27. the string was dead at that time, the guy was boasting on how long it lasts and what big savings he's doing as he only breaks some 2-3 strings a year. i still managed to win. i think nadal can way better adjust to a known frame (balance!!!-swingweight!!!) with a awful string than fed to a new frame (new balance!!! - swingweight!!!) with the best string. but i don't think we should continue this example as it will be a never ending story.

Fair enough said. I was playing a guy in a 4.5, and broke my jobs. He lent me one of his sticks, and I won anyway. But it really wasn't that bad of a job or a stick. He said, "The rule is, if you break your strings, and don't have a replacement, you can't leave the match to get a new stick. You have to play on with the stick you brought. I wanted to see if I could beat you fair and square, so I lent you my own stick." I felt a little guilty, and that guy was a good sport. I would not have objected, if he borrowed a stick from the crowd, as it was his club, his crowd, and his loss. All the come ons in the world, can't beat a good player, against inferior opp., no matter what stick/string job they use, but that's not the argument. It's string vs stick!

 

[bad_call]

I don't think this is true at all. I can immediately feel a difference if i pick up and try to hit with a racket lower than 11 oz. It's not solid, and i feel like the racket is spasming after contact. I can play with almost any string, since I use a worm dampener.
I would play much better with my MGPM strung with the cheapest string than with a ntour with natural gut. By experience.

but for those who think strings matter more - let me string your racquets $$$ with that logic in mind. :mrgreen:

 

[Stinkdyr]

Frame is most important to me.
Strings are second.

 

[BreakPoint]

The racquet is a lot more important than the strings. With out the racquet what would you put the strings in? This is a which came first a chicken and egg argument. I will go into detail a little later and give some examples. I don't have time now............

Well, likewise, without strings in your racquet, what would you hit the ball with? :wink:

 

[JoelDali]

Well, likewise, without strings in your racquet, what would you hit the ball with? :wink:

Criss Angel did this on live TV.

 

[bhupaes]

With all due respect to kiteboard, I don't think one can really make an argument as whether racquets or strings are more important, speaking logically. Both are essential components here, and they address mainly different requirements. No string in the world can compensate for a 20 oz racquet, nor can the best racquet in the world make chickenwire feel good. Within popularly accepted ranges of racquet and string parameters, perhaps there is more flexibility with tuning the combination to one's liking by varying string parameters... I can accept that, but these are qualitative statements...

 

[kiteboard]

I have a 2 lb racquet, filled with silicone if you want to hit with it. Normal ranges of course! Bad string jobs are messing more people up than bad frames. There are those freaks who don't play better nor worse with anything, but they are just that, freaks.

 

[kiteboard]

Well, likewise, without strings in your racquet, what would you hit the ball with? :wink:

You hit the ball with the strings, not the stick, unless you frame every shot. Why not just make a solid stick, no strings, just holes drilled through the frame like a paddle ball stick? The bed frame only determines the stiffness, and the wt, for the most part. The strings determine the connection to the frame, the feel of the bed, the distance of the shot, whether it has trampoline or not, and makes up most of the play result period.

 

[vsbabolat]

To me the racquet is more important than the strings. In my Prestige Classic 600 I can put any type of strings and it plays and feels fantastic!!!!!! It is a testament of how well the PC600 was designed and manufactured. For a short time I was putting Babolat Xcel in my Prestige Classic 600 it felt and played fine but with no durability ( it would break in 2 hours if I ws lucky). When I got the YT Prestige Mid I put Babolat Xcel in it since that is what I had in my Prestige Classic 600 at that time. Well the Xcel played awful in the YT Prestige Mid. The Xcel in the YT Prestige Mid had horrible vibration like a tuning fork. The reverberations were tremendous. While in the Prestige Classic 600 the Xcel played and felt great. I changed the string in the YT Prestige Mid and put HEAD FXP in it and it played very different (like a different racquet) and much better. So you could infer that with the YT Prestige Mid the strings are very important while in the Prestige Classic 600 the strings are not important. But that also shows how important the racquet is.

So, saying the Strings matter more than the frame is not telling the whole story and not being intellectually truthful. The strings are in a partnership with the racquet. The strings are a important component. But not THE component.

 

[Ripper014]

No question for me it is string... I can usually modify tension... to give a frame the feel I am looking for... I can also make adjustments with some lead tape. A crappy string is exactly that... there is not much I can do to make it play any better.

I feel a racket is an extension of myself... and if I can get the tactile feedback I am looking for everything is good.

 

[TennezSport]

Bingo........

Well, likewise, without strings in your racquet, what would you hit the ball with? :wink:

You hit the ball with the strings, not the stick, unless you frame every shot. Why not just make a solid stick, no strings, just holes drilled through the frame like a paddle ball stick? The bed frame only determines the stiffness, and the wt, for the most part. The strings determine the connection to the frame, the feel of the bed, the distance of the shot, whether it has trampoline or not, and makes up most of the play result period.

By jove I think they've got it :wink:

Cheers, TennezSport

 

[mucat]

A good string/tension can make a bad frame playable. However, a bad string/tension can turn the best frame unplayable.

 

[JoelDali]

The only time I've had a wtf moment with strings in a 88 was Lux Adrenaline. Utter garbage. Filth. Despicable. LoL.

 

[fgs]

now you can see how different frames blend differently with the same string - not to mention the player and his biomechanics.
i enjoyed the adrenaline 1.20 in the mains with wilson sensation 1.25 in the crosses (23kg mains / 22kg crosses) in my 106 nblades.
it is a very stiff string and i can easily imagine that in an 88 it is absolutely utter garbage, but in a 106 at a rather low tension you get very good spin and control out of it - and what impressed me most was that it didn't die on me in the 8 hitting hours i got out of it, as opposed to it's much more expensive siblings.

 

[bhupaes]

I have a 2 lb racquet, filled with silicone if you want to hit with it.

Ouch! The very thought is giving me TE!

Normal ranges of course! Bad string jobs are messing more people up than bad frames. There are those freaks who don't play better nor worse with anything, but they are just that, freaks.

Yeah, I don't disagree. I am very sensitive to strings myself, although you might not think that from the string I am currently using...

 

[kiteboard]

now you can see how different frames blend differently with the same string - not to mention the player and his biomechanics.
i enjoyed the adrenaline 1.20 in the mains with wilson sensation 1.25 in the crosses (23kg mains / 22kg crosses) in my 106 nblades.
it is a very stiff string and i can easily imagine that in an 88 it is absolutely utter garbage, but in a 106 at a rather low tension you get very good spin and control out of it - and what impressed me most was that it didn't die on me in the 8 hitting hours i got out of it, as opposed to it's much more expensive siblings.

Ah, ha. Good post. Very diff. results, with diff. frames, same string/ten., as I've noticed also.

 

[kiteboard]

The only time I've had a wtf moment with strings in a 88 was Lux Adrenaline. Utter garbage. Filth. Despicable. LoL.

Ha, ha. Love that garbage alu ****.

 

[kiteboard]

A good string/tension can make a bad frame playable. However, a bad string/tension can turn the best frame unplayable.

Listen to this guy. Simply true.

 

[Centered]

They are equally important.

What is debatable is the importance of differences between specific frames and between specific strings. One could argue that the range of quality may be highest between two strings versus two racquets and thus it's "more important" to note this huge range because of its greatest potential impact — but such an argument is silly because there are so many racquets that have been produced that are unusable for modern tennis (not just the Prince God) and strings that are unusable for modern tennis (steel wire).

 

[marosmith]

So if strings are more important then the frame, why do you currently own about $3,000 worth of frames??

 

[kiteboard]

I own more than that. ($6,000) I've tried bad frames, and bad string, and done the budget thing, and now I just want the best of both worlds, the best frames, and the best strings, so I can play the best I can pos. play, without any more excuses, such as, my stick is cheap, or, my strings suck. I am trying to become more of an owner of my own game/stick/strings. My enjoyment of my shots is increasing also. It's easier to hit pro shots. It's easier to stay in the zone when you do arrive there by chance. The sound is louder. The balls I hit are heavier. The spin I hit is ****withyou spin.

 

[SlapShot]

Jeez.....I'm doing it ALL wrong with my factory frames and cheap syn. gut (tried both poly and gut in my C10, and I seem to come back to syn gut for the crispy feel...).

 

[Dreamcastin]

A good string/tension can make a bad frame playable. However, a bad string/tension can turn the best frame unplayable.

i proved this to myself about a month ago,(and yes i know this is extreme) but i restrung a crappy head walmart racquet when i first got my stringing machine to prove to myself i wouldnt screw up my expensive frames. I strung it up with cheap prince syn gut and it played amazing in comparison to its old self. to add to this my normal frames play worse than walmart racquets when the strings go dead. and i think you might be missing the point slapshot, its not that theirs bad strings, its just that certain strings/tensions can be the best way to utilize your game compared to a racquet.

 

[bad_call]

Jeez.....I'm doing it ALL wrong with my factory frames and cheap syn. gut (tried both poly and gut in my C10, and I seem to come back to syn gut for the crispy feel...).

you want a $150 string job? step right this way...

 

[kiteboard]

Jeez.....I'm doing it ALL wrong with my factory frames and cheap syn. gut (tried both poly and gut in my C10, and I seem to come back to syn gut for the crispy feel...).

No you aren't, now you got plenty of excuses left over for yourself why you have trouble with 50+ crafty types who spend big money on pro stock and vs gut! Syn gut is nice and crispy, and lasts me about 1/2 hr. before it snaps.

 

[SlapShot]

No you aren't, now you got plenty of excuses left over for yourself why you have trouble with 50+ crafty types who spend big money on pro stock and vs gut! Syn gut is nice and crispy, and lasts me about 1/2 hr. before it snaps.

You're getting senile in your old age KB.

I actually had a "personal success" against a crafty older player last week - expected to get my clock cleaned since he's a solid player and coaches young punks like me (he's actually known me since I was 13). End result - I lost 7-6, 6-4, but he was 2 of 12 on break points, and I ended up 1 for 1 on my only break point. All with my cheapie syn gut.

 

[kiteboard]

Ha, ha. Now I'm jealous I'm spending so much money for so little result.
Sometimes, a loss is a good loss, and you don't feel so bad about it. I'm trying to arrive there, by hitting great shots under bad pressure, and remembering only my good shots, due to my old age memory loss. Whenever a young punk comes up, and starts slapping winners on me, I ask him, "Do you want to play a set?", and he always says,
"Sure."
Then I win 6-1, and make him pay for all the ues I end up chasing in practice, like a damn ball boy for him. Little suckers have no respect for an old man like me, even when I kick their asses.

If he's known you since you were 13, it's a psych advantage, and you did well. Now go out and stop missing so damn many returns, and first serves, and keep the ball in the court, and run his fat old ass, and you might win.

 

[kiteboard]

You're getting senile in your old age KB.

I actually had a "personal success" against a crafty older player last week - expected to get my clock cleaned since he's a solid player and coaches young punks like me (he's actually known me since I was 13). End result - I lost 7-6, 6-4, but he was 2 of 12 on break points, and I ended up 1 for 1 on my only break point. All with my cheapie syn gut.

That's called selective senility. It helps me forget all of my losses, all of my bad shots, and all of my stupid decisions, like how much money I spend on top quality frames and string, all of my injuries, all of my bad clothes, all of my bank accounts and credit card balances, and all of the young punk open players who have beaten me by blasting the holy ****t out of the ball.

 

[-Bobo-]

Um okay i don't usually go on the offensive but thats just garbage, the same string plays completely differently in different frames whether it be weight, string pattern, head shape, feedback or etc all of these things combine to give you your response both in what you feel in your hand and what comes off the strings.

 

[bad_call]

Um okay i don't usually go on the offensive but thats just garbage, the same string plays completely differently in different frames whether it be weight, string pattern, head shape, feedback or etc all of these things combine to give you your response both in what you feel in your hand and what comes off the strings.

get this man a drink of kool aid...

 

[kiteboard]

Ha, ha, make it a purple coolaid, from the nethermost regions of jamestown, Afr. 400 of them are at evergreen cem., and they are all arguing about which string to use in hell to string him up with.