Strong year end number 1s

[nolefam_2024]

I would take any number 1 winning over 11000 pts in ATP rankings as a strong number 1.

In 2003 Roddick won 4535 ranking points which roughly will be around 9000 pts. Not bad but not quite great.

Since 2004 to 2008 was too much records breaking and new targets set. Roger reached 15300 pts ranking record in 2006. He was too dominant.

Even in 2009, Federer was barely below 11k, granted it was not as strong as previous number 1s but barely. He won 10550 pts.

2011 gave another ranking breakthrough with Nole now going above 15k. 2012 even during peak competition, Nole had virtually 13k and 2016 Murray made 12k points to become year end number 1.

But that is when the ranking started to go back to pre 2004 level. This was year ending ranking pts after 2016. Each year.

2017 - 10645 fairly good
2018 - 9045 under 10k
2019 - 9985 under 10k
2020 - covid year 6455
2021 - 9370
2022 - asterisk year 6820
2023 - 11245

The dominance to the ATP rankings is BACK.

When you hit 11k in rankings, you are definitely in your prime. Roger and Rafa in their best years made 11k. Rafa has not won 11k points after 2013 when he made 13030 pts, his personal record.

Federer had not hit 11k after 2009 ever.

Murray hit 11k once in his career in 2016.

 

[weakera]

Can you summarize in 50 characters or less

 

[Mainad]

Murray hit 11k once in his career in 2016.

At the end of that season he was on 12,685 points.

 

[nolefam_2024]

At the end of that season he was on 12,685 points.

Yes I said so in the post.

I mean the 11k mark Murray hit only once.

 

[Razer]

Ranking points of Rank 1 only shows how strong he is with respect to the field, but strength of the field is not something which can be measured.

Murray having more points in 2016 than Federer in 2009 does not mean Federer won't crush Murray if they played each other.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Ranking points of Rank 1 only shows how strong he is with respect to the field, but strength of the field is not something which can be measured.

Murray having more points in 2016 than Federer in 2009 does not mean Federer won't crush Murray if they played each other.

Please relax

Federer lost to Delpo in New York and he was getting his behind kicked for a long time in between slams.

And ok still fed was not that bad making it almost to 11k in 2009. There is another thing matchup which can be to his advantage

Vs the field Murray did better. He beat Nole in ATP finals and Rome. Fed beat Rafa in Madrid and maybe ATP finals I don't know.

Both needed a big win to win their slams, fed in Roland Garros and Murray in Wimbledon. But it may be possible for Murray to win Wimbledon even with Nole in it.

Finally both benefitted from injured or declined opponents. We can't exaggerate injuries of Nole and Rafa in 2016 and 2009 respectively but yes both were not at their best for full season.

Fed won what 4 titles in 2009? He was very selective. While Murray tried his best to win every single title post USOpen. And succeeded. Plus he got zero pts for winning Olympics that year too. He could have gone well in USopen but he played such a long season with Olympics.

I don't like defending Murray myself but he was pretty good in 2016. Maybe a bit less than fed in 2009 but fed himself wasn't so good, could have lost to Roddick in Wimbledon finals, lost to Delpo in USopen finals.

 

[Razer]

Please relax

Federer lost to Delpo in New York and he was getting his behind kicked for a long time in between slams.

And ok still fed was not that bad making it almost to 11k in 2009. There is another thing matchup which can be to his advantage

Vs the field Murray did better. He beat Nole in ATP finals and Rome. Fed beat Rafa in Madrid and maybe ATP finals I don't know.

Both needed a big win to win their slams, fed in Roland Garros and Murray in Wimbledon. But it may be possible for Murray to win Wimbledon even with Nole in it.

Finally both benefitted from injured or declined opponents. We can't exaggerate injuries of Nole and Rafa in 2016 and 2009 respectively but yes both were not at their best for full season.

Fed won what 4 titles in 2009? He was very selective. While Murray tried his best to win every single title post USOpen. And succeeded. Plus he got zero pts for winning Olympics that year too. He could have gone well in USopen but he played such a long season with Olympics.

I don't like defending Murray myself but he was pretty good in 2016. Maybe a bit less than fed in 2009 but fed himself wasn't so good, could have lost to Roddick in Wimbledon finals, lost to Delpo in USopen finals.

Murray is 3 tiers below Federer, no ?

He ending as 1 means the season is inferior - You dont need to analyze titles counts won and such stuffs man...

 

[nolefam_2024]

Murray is 3 tiers below Federer, no ?

He ending as 1 means the season is inferior - You dont need to analyze titles counts won and such stuffs man...

No

 

[Razer]

No

Murray is 3 tiers below Federer

Tier 1 is Novak, Peter, Roger, Rafael and that man who lost a 100M race to Pele
Tier 2 is Lendl, Connors and Mcenroe
Tier 3 is Becker Agassi Wilander and Edberg
Tier 4 is where you Murray resides along with Courier

 

[Neptune]

Ranking points of Rank 1 only shows how strong he is with respect to the field, but strength of the field is not something which can be measured.

Murray having more points in 2016 than Federer in 2009 does not mean Federer won't crush Murray if they played each other.

2009: Murray vs Fed 2-2 real matches
2004-2009: Murray vs Fed 6-4 real matches

 

[nolefam_2024]

Murray is 3 tiers below Federer

Tier 1 is Novak, Peter, Roger, Rafael and that man who lost a 100M race to Pele
Tier 2 is Lendl, Connors and Mcenroe
Tier 3 is Becker Agassi Wilander and Edberg
Tier 4 is where you Murray resides along with Courier

When talking about whole careers you can bring tiers.

Year to year discussion is far less nuanced. Roger won 2 slams so he has better year but Murray is just alongside him for that particular year. He might be ahead of Nole's 2018 by accomplishment as well because he won Olympics and ATP finals while Nole won 1 more slam. It's the same scenario as 2016. A slam is worth a lot but I think 1 ATP finals and 1 og can be better.

 

[Razer]

2009: Murray vs Fed 2-2 real matches
2004-2009: Murray vs Fed 6-4 real matches

Murray could not even beat Federer in slams ever except 2013 when Fed was having back issues..... you think such an inferior specimen is even comparable based on his little bo3 matches that got him a winning h2h or level h2h ? LOL

Let the little man keep his winning H2H of 04-09, Federer will keep his 15 slams from 03-09 while Murray keeps 0 Slams

 

[Razer]

When talking about whole careers you can bring tiers.

Year to year discussion is far less nuanced. Roger won 2 slams so he has better year but Murray is just alongside him for that particular year. He might be ahead of Nole's 2018 by accomplishment as well because he won Olympics and ATP finals while Nole won 1 more slam. It's the same scenario as 2016. A slam is worth a lot but I think 1 ATP finals and 1 og can be better.

Strong year end 1 and Weak year 1 is a subjective discussion based on playing levels, Murray himself is a weak era rank 1, the strong era sorta ended when Novak was injured and so were Fedal in second half of 2016 leaving Murray to vulture all the remaining tournaments.

This thread was just not necessary, Nole won the slams race, now just rest on it instead of trying to do strong-weak conversations.

Many years had great competition, you need to factor that as well before you determine who was strong and weak, it is not a title counting contest to find out who is ahead.

 

[Neptune]

Strong year end 1 and Weak year 1 is a subjective discussion based on playing levels, Murray himself is a weak era rank 1, the strong era sorta ended when Novak was injured and so were Fedal in second half of 2016 leaving Murray to vulture all the remaining tournaments.

This thread was just not necessary, Nole won the slams race, now just rest on it instead of trying to do strong-weak conversations.

Many years had great competition, you need to factor that as well before you determine who was strong and weak, it is not a title counting contest to find out who is ahead.

So is a 11780 point No2 a strong or weak year No2 ?

 

[BauerAlmeida]

Basically, all the Big 3 YE1s were strong. 2020 for Djokovic might not be strong because of being a weird year, but Djokovic numbers were great. Alcaraz last year was weakish comparably.

 

[Mainad]

Murray could not even beat Federer in slams ever except 2013 when Fed was having back issues..... you think such an inferior specimen is even comparable based on his little bo3 matches that got him a winning h2h or level h2h ? LOL

Let the little man keep his winning H2H of 04-09, Federer will keep his 15 slams from 03-09 while Murray keeps 0 Slams

Yeah, "the little man" had more serious back issues than Fed back in 2013. It wasn't Fed who had to undergo back surgery towards the end of that year. Plus don't forget that the 2012 Olympic final (on Fed's favourite surface on his favourite court) was a Bo5 match too!

 

[nolefam_2024]

Strong year end 1 and Weak year 1 is a subjective discussion based on playing levels, Murray himself is a weak era rank 1, the strong era sorta ended when Novak was injured and so were Fedal in second half of 2016 leaving Murray to vulture all the remaining tournaments.

This thread was just not necessary, Nole won the slams race, now just rest on it instead of trying to do strong-weak conversations.

Many years had great competition, you need to factor that as well before you determine who was strong and weak, it is not a title counting contest to find out who is ahead.

Again No.

 

[Razer]

Top 10 Highest GAP % between year end 1 & 2 in the last 34 Years

Rank		Name	No. 2 Player	Points No. 1	Points No. 2	Points Pct. Diff.	Season
1		Roger Federer	Rafael Nadal	8370	4470	87.2%	2006
2		Novak Djokovic	Andy Murray	16585	8945	85.4%	2015
3		Roger Federer	Andy Roddick	6335	3655	73.3%	2004
4		Pete Sampras	Andre Agassi	5097	3249	56.9%	1994
5		Andre Agassi	Yevgeny Kafelnikov	5048	3465	45.7%	1999
6		Novak Djokovic	Rafael Nadal	13630	9595	42.1%	2011
7		Pete Sampras	Patrick Rafter	4547	3210	41.7%	1997
8		Roger Federer	Rafael Nadal	6725	4765	41.1%	2005
9		Rafael Nadal	Roger Federer	12450	9145	36.1%	2010
10		Pete Sampras	Michael Chang	4865	3597	35.3%	1996