Struggling to bring my A game against pushers

[StilltheGOAT]

Heyy,

So I play with advance players (I won't exactly call myself one, you'll know why as you read). When playing with them, I use their speed while rallying -- not that I cannot generate speed by myself -- but I find it pretty easy to use my opponent's speed when playing with top guys. And that is also why I started to play advance, due to the fact that I can handle very high levels of speed and spin. (probably because I used to train a lot on the wall in my early days, I do a lot less now. But that's not the point anyway)

I can give a tough fight to my coach who was ranked 1100 something. Of course he is retired, for two years now. But he is aged 27 and can move just as well, just doesn't have his earlier level. So this was just to give some perspective.

But at the same time, I turned out horribly against a guy 4 years younger to me, he was top-3 from his category, but 4 years younger was embarasing. You must have realized by reading till now, that I fall in the category where the older guys are better i.e. below men's

So the thing is, I can rally well against nationals-playing guys from my category. But I'm not as good when playing points against them, and that's the reason I'm typing out this thread and not playing Nationals myself.
But the real problem I face is against the pushers or weak guys. When I play club matches, all my matches are going to be against people like these. And they just seem to have my number.
Their shots are too low on topspin, don't bounce much, have little to no power on them, and are rarely very deep. And then there's the most annoying lob, where they just f****** push the ball skywards. These are the most uncomfortable players for me. And I end up either in the net or the fence.

It has started becoming very humiliating and embarrassing for me when I mess up routine shots against these guys, and have to use my mental strength to get past them. But some of the times, th UFEs are too high, and I lose.

Did that happen to anyone when they switched to playing with hard hitters?
Or even if it didn't, if you watch this thread, please help out. I cannot go any longer with such performances.
Please help
Thanks.

 

[a12345]

Quite often when you play better players, ironically the ball arrives to you closer to your sweet spot. It also arrives to you faster.

Combined together it means you need to do less with the ball. In this scenario theyre the attacker and youre the defender.

When you play weaker players, the balls have less pace, they get lobbed in the air, it doesnt arrive where you want it to be. In this scenario now youre the attacker and theyre the defender.

So you need to work on your attacking game. When you need to add pace to the ball it can throw you off your rhythm so thats likely what you need to work on - adding pace to the incoming ball.

 

[FiddlerDog]

Play the pusher as much as possible so you can adapt.
Anyone can return a topspin ball. Not everyone can return a junk ball

 

[Demented]

I've recently encountered the unicorn of pushers. He hits a topspin ball but only at about 5 feet of height. It lands within 2-3 of the base line and then checks up with no power. He's lefty so it side spins in toward my body making me lose spacing. This completely negates my ability to whip up the back of the ball. I've played 6 sets against him this month and only in the last one did I manage to see a set point and then I collapsed.

He's a 70 year old 4.0 and it's driving me mad. I beat the assistant club pro 3 days ago and I can't handle this dude.

 

[FiddlerDog]

I've recently encountered the unicorn of pushers. He hits a topspin ball but only at about 5 feet of height. It lands within 2-3 of the base line and then checks up with no power. He's lefty so it side spins in toward my body making me lose spacing.

I don't think you know what that word means

 

[Pumpkin]

Pushers are playing tennis. The goal in tennis is to hit the ball over the net and into the court and that's what pushers do. With so called advanced players they are making errors for you. A genuine advanced player is a pusher but hitting with a higher quality of shot.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Heyy,

So I play with advance players (I won't exactly call myself one, you'll know why as you read). When playing with them, I use their speed while rallying -- not that I cannot generate speed by myself -- but I find it pretty easy to use my opponent's speed when playing with top guys. And that is also why I started to play advance, due to the fact that I can handle very high levels of speed and spin. (probably because I used to train a lot on the wall in my early days, I do a lot less now. But that's not the point anyway)

I can give a tough fight to my coach who was ranked 1100 something. Of course he is retired, for two years now. But he is aged 27 and can move just as well, just doesn't have his earlier level. So this was just to give some perspective.

But at the same time, I turned out horribly against a guy 4 years younger to me, he was top-3 from his category, but 4 years younger was embarasing. You must have realized by reading till now, that I fall in the category where the older guys are better i.e. below men's

So the thing is, I can rally well against nationals-playing guys from my category. But I'm not as good when playing points against them, and that's the reason I'm typing out this thread and not playing Nationals myself.
But the real problem I face is against the pushers or weak guys. When I play club matches, all my matches are going to be against people like these. And they just seem to have my number.
Their shots are too low on topspin, don't bounce much, have little to no power on them, and are rarely very deep. And then there's the most annoying lob, where they just f****** push the ball skywards. These are the most uncomfortable players for me. And I end up either in the net or the fence.

It has started becoming very humiliating and embarrassing for me when I mess up routine shots against these guys, and have to use my mental strength to get past them. But some of the times, th UFEs are too high, and I lose.

Did that happen to anyone when they switched to playing with hard hitters?
Or even if it didn't, if you watch this thread, please help out. I cannot go any longer with such performances.
Please help
Thanks.

Here is the TL;DR executive summary:
- Stop judging your opponent as weak
- Stop judging yourself as weak because you are losing to someone you perceive as weak
- Stop carrying around expectations ["I should be able to hit that shot."; "I shouldn't be making so many errors."; "I shouldn't be losing to this hacker." etc.]
- Stop using how you practice against the good players as the benchmark for everything else [ie "If I practice well against X and X would crush the pusher, I should be able to crush the pusher also"]
- Start practicing against pushers: they're obviously doing things that exploit your weaknesses. You need to address those weaknesses, which are not exploited when practicing with the good players as that is not their game style [although they could easily play the role of pusher if you asked them to]
----------------


Suggestions:
- Stop worrying about things you can't control like your opponent's age, playing style, stroke appearance, unathletic appearance, etc. Of course, observe them because they will probably give you useful information: what doesn't he like to do? What are his strengths and weaknesses? How can I use my strength to exploit his weakness and hide my own weaknesses?


- Stop judging your opponent: "But the real problem I face is against the pushers or weak guys." Instead of thinking of them as a pusher or weak, simply analyze them for strengths and weaknesses. Avoid the value judgments.

If you didn't know who Federer was and he came to the court with 1980s clothes and a wooden racquet and just pushed, you might think he's a weak player. You don't have all of the information so you jump to the wrong conclusion. Be slower to reach a conclusion. Give your opponent respect. By disrespecting your opponent [categorizing him as weak], you are setting yourself up for a struggle when you find yourself losing. It's not helping your game; it's hurting it.


- Stop judging yourself: the fact you mentioned he was 4 years younger implies you thought it relevant. Since most of us on this forum are adults, +/- 4 years means nothing. Injuries, or lack thereof, are a lot more important. Heck, I played a kid who 40 years my junior and he was already better than I.

If you mentioned the age difference, you are likely a junior when 4 years can mean a huge difference. Say you're an U18 and he's an U14. Since everyone [including you] "knows" you're supposed to beat him, the loss causes the embarrassment.

You're too worried about what others will think, that's why you're judging yourself harshly. It's like a wearing a weight vest while trying to sprint: it's just going to weigh you down. Even more important than stroke technique, you need to work on the mental side of the game. You're expending too much energy in areas with no payoff [ie "It has started becoming very humiliating and embarrassing for me..." This humiliation and embarrassment is internally-generated. You are the source, not your opponent. Until you learn and internalize that, you will struggle against this type of player]. Instead, you need to practice concentrating on the process ["What am I doing well? What am I doing poorly? I'm making a lot of UEs because I'm overhitting. Let's go for bigger targets, more TS, and stay away from the lines. Vamos!"].


The solution is obvious: your game is calibrated against a certain type of opponent. You do well against the "advance" players because they all hit a certain type of ball in a certain pattern. The reason you do horribly against the "weak" players is two-fold: A) they totally don't fit the pattern you're accustomed to; and B) you tie yourself up in mental knots trying to understand why you're playing poorly and can't come up with an answer.

You're like someone who has trained at sea level but occasionally goes to 20,000' to play a match: your body is calibrated for the atmospheric pressure at sea level. If you go to 20,000' with no time to acclimate, you will struggle to climb a flight of stairs, let alone do something strenuous. The problem isn't the altitude: everyone else is playing just fine. The problem is your lack of preparation. Do you see the analogy? You need to train at least some of the time at 20,000' [or never go to that altitude]. Likewise, you have to train against pushers.

Looked at another way, a well-built car will do wonderfully on the German Autobahn, whizzing smoothly along at 200Km/hr. How well will that car do on an unpaved rocky road with 3' boulders jutting out and big patches of deep mud? Not so well. The car is not optimized for those conditions. Your game is not optimized for pushers...yet.

Changing your technique to handle pushers will be the easy part. The tough part will be changing your mental approach from one of disbelief that you're losing to such a weak player to non-judgmental acceptance of your opponent and getting on with the business of winning the match. Once you can flip that switch, you'll find that a lot of other things just fall into place.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

@StilltheGOAT,

Regarding your statement "Their shots are too low on topspin, don't bounce much, have little to no power on them, and are rarely very deep. And then there's the most annoying lob, where they just f****** push the ball skywards. These are the most uncomfortable players for me."

You need to switch your focus from blaming them for not hitting a "correct" shot ["too low on TS", "too low of a bounce", "too little power", "too short", etc] and flip it to something positive to work on [dealing with lower TS shots, dealing with lower balls, generating more of the power rather than relying on the incoming power, being able to play longitudinally as well as laterally].

The former is passive and externalizes the blame.

The latter is active and is blameless.

 

[BallChaser]

What you are describing sounds familiar and you are not certainly alone. S&V already gave you comprehensive mental advice. Therefore, I am listing a few technical tips.

1. Try not to add the pace 10% more than incoming balls. When a no-pace ball comes, you may be tempted to kill, get tense and end up ovehitting. 10% rule will keep you relaxed.
2. When low balls come, focus on lifting them and slice when you can. These low bounce balls are more difficult than they appear. Some of them have wicked side spins. The last thing you want to do is to rush and net them.
3. Some pushers thrive on drop shot and lob combination. Be careful about giving pace when you retrieve drop shots. You may get lobbed before you get ready.

 

[matterer]

If they're hitting with no pace, step in and blast it low over the net. As long as you can make contact at or above tape height, it's really easy to aim low over the net so you can safely hit with a lot of pace and blow them off the court. Most club players who struggle with pushers can't reliability generate pace, and that's usually because they can't hit drive topspin groundstrokes with a low trajectory (ie topspin without coming from under the ball)

 

[BallChaser]

If they're hitting with no pace, step in and blast it low over the net. As long as you can make contact at or above tape height, it's really easy to aim low over the net so you can safely hit with a lot of pace and blow them off the court. Most club players who struggle with pushers can't reliability generate pace, and that's usually because they can't hit drive topspin groundstrokes with a low trajectory (ie topspin without coming from under the ball)

Agreed. Step in. Waiting too much kills your rhythm and footwork.

 

[Pumpkin]

I remember playing a nightmare pusher once. He told me after the match he was a squash player and fitness fanatic.

I ran him around all over the place but he was super fast and tracked everything down and just pushed it back. There was not a bead of sweat on him. Breathing was relaxed.

Somehow I won 6-4 but it was so difficult.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I remember playing a nightmare pusher once. He told me after the match he was a squash player and fitness fanatic.

I ran him around all over the place but he was super fast and tracked everything down and just pushed it back. There was not a bead of sweat on him. Breathing was relaxed.

Somehow I won 6-4 but it was so difficult.

I played an ex-pro soccer player. Seems like I had to win every point 3 times because he kept running everything down. If I hadn't been able to attack the net, I'd probably have lost.

 

[Bagumbawalla]

For what it's worth, here's how I suggest preparing for "pushers".
When playing against or practicing with a solid hitter, we often sort of get lazy- relying
On the other player to feed you pace.

So for practice against a puff-ball hitter, have someone toss you balls that basically bounce straight up, with no forward momentum at all. They should be tossed almost randomly, here an there- forcing you to get to the ball, set yourself up to
connect with the ball in your strike zone- forcing you to uncoil into the stroke, creating your own pace, spin and direction from out of nothing at all. If you can hit these nothing balls solidly and place them well, with pace and spin, then pushers should be no problem (he says).

 

[celito]

For what it's worth, here's how I suggest preparing for "pushers".
When playing against or practicing with a solid hitter, we often sort of get lazy- relying
On the other player to feed you pace.

So for practice against a puff-ball hitter, have someone toss you balls that basically bounce straight up, with no forward momentum at all. They should be tossed almost randomly, here an there- forcing you to get to the ball, set yourself up to
connect with the ball in your strike zone- forcing you to uncoil into the stroke, creating your own pace, spin and direction from out of nothing at all. If you can hit these nothing balls solidly and place them well, with pace and spin, then pushers should be no problem (he says).

Those high balls are hard because the stay in the strike zone way shorter than a top spin regular height or driven ball since the ball is dropping horizontally quickly. It's harder to attack those balls with top spin without over hitting them. At least for me.

 

[Bagumbawalla]

Those high balls are hard because the stay in the strike zone way shorter than a top spin regular height or driven ball since the ball is dropping horizontally quickly. It's harder to attack those balls with top spin without over hitting them. At least for me.

Yes, everybody hates that sort of ball/player, but the more balls you hit like that in practice, the " easier" it will be in an actual match.

 

[Johnny505]

When I struggle to raise my game to compete against opponents who are beating me, I drag them down to my level and lower. They soon get frustrated and start losing points and concentration, then go for the kill.
Yes it makes me look like a gimp playing such tennis but if it wins me matches

 

[Demented]

I'm still baffled as to how to handle a left pusher that adds a bit of side spin to every shot. All my forehands end up with no spacing which makes it hard to rip up the back with my normal spin. I either have to drift sideways while hitting which robs me of control or plant my feet and end up pulling my elbow into my chest trying to adjust.

 

[zaph]

I love these threads because there is always a ton of justification about how the OP is really a good player, with loads of talk about how they beat or are competitive with better players. Of course the OP in these threads never actually loses against the pusher, which makes me question the point of these threads. You claim you already beat the pusher, so what is the problem? Carry on with what you're doing.

Though if you really are struggling against actually pushes and not disrespecting more defensive players who should really be called counterpunchers; the reality is, you're not as good as you think you are. I have seen good club players against good pushers and the pusher is always destroyed, it is rarely close. So if you can really deal with ranked players, you should not be having a problem with genuine pushers.

 

[a10best]

Here is the TL;DR executive summary:
- Stop judging your opponent as weak
- Stop judging yourself as weak because you are losing to someone you perceive as weak
- Stop carrying around expectations ["I should be able to hit that shot."; "I shouldn't be making so many errors."; "I shouldn't be losing to this hacker." etc.]
- Stop using how you practice against the good players as the benchmark for everything else [ie "If I practice well against X and X would crush the pusher, I should be able to crush the pusher also"]
- Start practicing against pushers: they're obviously doing things that exploit your weaknesses. You need to address those weaknesses, which are not exploited when practicing with the good players as that is not their game style [although they could easily play the role of pusher if you asked them to]
----------------
Suggestions:
- Stop worrying about things you can't control like your opponent's age, playing style, stroke appearance, unathletic appearance, etc. Of course, observe them because they will probably give you useful information: what doesn't he like to do? What are his strengths and weaknesses? How can I use my strength to exploit his weakness and hide my own weaknesses?

- Stop judging your opponent: "But the real problem I face is against the pushers or weak guys." Instead of thinking of them as a pusher or weak, simply analyze them for strengths and weaknesses. Avoid the value judgments.

This humiliation and embarrassment is internally-generated. You are the source, not your opponent. Until you learn and internalize that, you will struggle against this type of player]. Instead, you need to practice concentrating on the process ["What am I doing well? What am I doing poorly? I'm making a lot of UEs because I'm overhitting. Let's go for bigger targets, more TS, and stay away from the lines. Vamos!"].

The solution is obvious: your game is calibrated against a certain type of opponent. You do well against the "advance" players because they all hit a certain type of ball in a certain pattern. The reason you do horribly against the "weak" players is two-fold: A) they totally don't fit the pattern you're accustomed to; and B) you tie yourself up in mental knots trying to understand why you're playing poorly and can't come up with an answer.

Outstanding post above and spot on. I wish I could favorite this to come back to.

I recently judged a player by appearance. He was visibly overweight. In fact, so obese he was trying to hide his huge stomach with a long sleeve sweatshirt. We had some small talk before the match and I asked how long you been playing. He said, "since I was "7". I thought to myself "uh oh" but was confident his court movement would be terrible.
Boy was I surprised, he moved and anticipated much better than me and his strokes, serves, returns were all former college level which he confessed to playing for one later. He was superior and handled me easily in games of 21 (5 to 7 points more). I think his weight issue was genetic b/c he's a pacific islander.

Against pushers (no pace block and bunters) you cannot be mentally weak or impatient.
Yet, I also struggle against some of them when forced to generate the usual pace I'm used to.
When I find their weakness like a weak service return or weak rally ball from a low slice or deep topspin, you have to put it away or set up the next shot to put away; Sometimes this "put away" has become a weakness for me against some of them. It's like a Subaru Forester beating a Dodge Challenger Hellcat

I've noticed after playing more on clay the past few years you get passed more often when you approach the net and tend to not flatten out your strokes as much. You prepare for and accept the grind. With that mindset, I think I lost my natural attack game due to playing on clay more and staying back.

 

[a10best]

For what it's worth, here's how I suggest preparing for "pushers".
When playing against or practicing with a solid hitter, we often sort of get lazy- relying
On the other player to feed you pace.

So for practice against a puff-ball hitter, have someone toss you balls that basically bounce straight up, with no forward momentum at all. They should be tossed almost randomly, here an there- forcing you to get to the ball, set yourself up to
connect with the ball in your strike zone- forcing you to uncoil into the stroke, creating your own pace, spin and direction from out of nothing at all. If you can hit these nothing balls solidly and place them well, with pace and spin, then pushers should be no problem (he says).

^^^ Yes. That's what I saw a father doing for his son on college break from Univ of Michigan on a court next to us.

 

[Pumpkin]

Outstanding post above and spot on. I wish I could favorite this to come back to.

I recently judged a player by appearance. He was visibly overweight. In fact, so obese he was trying to hide his huge stomach with a long sleeve sweatshirt. We had some small talk before the match and I asked how long you been playing. He said, "since I was "7". I thought to myself "uh oh" but was confident his court movement would be terrible.
Boy was I surprised, he moved and anticipated much better than me and his strokes, serves, returns were all former college level which he confessed to playing for one later. He was superior and handled me easily in games of 21 (5 to 7 points more). I think his weight issue was genetic b/c he's a pacific islander.

Against pushers (no pace block and bunters) you cannot be mentally weak or impatient.
Yet, I also struggle against some of them when forced to generate the usual pace I'm used to.
When I find their weakness like a weak service return or weak rally ball from a low slice or deep topspin, you have to put it away or set up the next shot to put away; Sometimes this "put away" has become a weakness for me against some of them. It's like a Subaru Forester beating a Dodge Challenger Hellcat

On clay you get passed more often when you approach the net and tend to not flatten out your strokes as much accepting the grind. With that mindset, I think I lost my natural attack game due to playing on clay more and staying back.

That's good but why don't we all face the awful truth. We spend all our time trying to perfect our shots but it's for nothing. Because we come up against someone who has spent no time perfecting their shots but they just decide they are going to tap the ball over the net and never miss and they are virtually impossible to beat.

 

[vex]

Heyy,

So I play with advance players (I won't exactly call myself one, you'll know why as you read). When playing with them, I use their speed while rallying -- not that I cannot generate speed by myself -- but I find it pretty easy to use my opponent's speed when playing with top guys. And that is also why I started to play advance, due to the fact that I can handle very high levels of speed and spin. (probably because I used to train a lot on the wall in my early days, I do a lot less now. But that's not the point anyway)

I can give a tough fight to my coach who was ranked 1100 something. Of course he is retired, for two years now. But he is aged 27 and can move just as well, just doesn't have his earlier level. So this was just to give some perspective.

But at the same time, I turned out horribly against a guy 4 years younger to me, he was top-3 from his category, but 4 years younger was embarasing. You must have realized by reading till now, that I fall in the category where the older guys are better i.e. below men's

So the thing is, I can rally well against nationals-playing guys from my category. But I'm not as good when playing points against them, and that's the reason I'm typing out this thread and not playing Nationals myself.
But the real problem I face is against the pushers or weak guys. When I play club matches, all my matches are going to be against people like these. And they just seem to have my number.
Their shots are too low on topspin, don't bounce much, have little to no power on them, and are rarely very deep. And then there's the most annoying lob, where they just f****** push the ball skywards. These are the most uncomfortable players for me. And I end up either in the net or the fence.

It has started becoming very humiliating and embarrassing for me when I mess up routine shots against these guys, and have to use my mental strength to get past them. But some of the times, th UFEs are too high, and I lose.

Did that happen to anyone when they switched to playing with hard hitters?
Or even if it didn't, if you watch this thread, please help out. I cannot go any longer with such performances.
Please help
Thanks.

There is a SUPER SIMPLE answer here: If they’re pushing the ball skyward… why are you letting it hit the ground? Volleys and overheads counter the moonballer.

 

[vex]

That's good but why don't we all face the awful truth. We spend all our time trying to perfect our shots but it's for nothing. Because we come up against someone who has spent no time perfecting their shots but they just decide they are going to tap the ball over the net and never miss and they are virtually impossible to beat.

If they tap the ball over the net and you aren’t putting it away you’ve been camping on the baseline perfecting only one shot and it’s not the shot you need to beat pushers.

That comes off harsh but it’s true. Don’t just stand on the baseline expecting them to hit you a rally ball. Watch thier racket, thier footwork, thier setup. Anticipate the shot that’s coming. Move earlier. Get to the ball earlier. Send it wide off court, or at his feet or just hit an outright winner - it doesn’t get much easier to hit winners than no pace pusher balls left short. If those shots come back, Your next ball should be an overhead or volley put away.

 

[a10best]

That's good but why don't we all face the awful truth. We spend all our time trying to perfect our shots but it's for nothing. Because we come up against someone who has spent no time perfecting their shots but they just decide they are going to tap the ball over the net and never miss and they are virtually impossible to beat.

Perfecting your shots raises your ceiling. The player tapping and bunting no pace balls over the net has a lower max ceiling. As far as I know they don't usually make it deep in 4.0 to 5.0 leagues or tournaments, yet I can't say that for all leagues/tournaments.
The tapper/bunter relies on hustle more than their form. The player with a perfected shot relies on their shot technique, court movement, and mental knowledge.

We need to play our game and strategically attack more. It's a physical game of chess against an opponent that requires some changes.
Example: If 4.5 player John & you split sets or play close matches yet John always destroys the tapper/pusher and you struggle. Then you need to work on your attack and strategy tactics more.

We may be talking about a different category of pushers.
I have high respect for speed demon pushers/slicers which are different from the tapper/bunter/blocker/lobber, in my opinion.

 

[Pumpkin]

Perfecting your shots raises your ceiling. The player tapping and bunting no pace balls over the net has a lower max ceiling. As far as I know they don't usually make it deep in 4.0 to 5.0 leagues or tournaments, yet I can't say that for all leagues/tournaments.
The tapper/bunter relies on hustle more than their form. The player with a perfected shot relies on their shot technique, court movement, and mental knowledge.

We need to play our game and strategically attack more. It's a physical game of chess against an opponent that requires some changes.
Example: If 4.5 player John & you split sets or play close matches yet John always destroys the tapper/pusher and you struggle. Then you need to work on your attack and strategy tactics more.

We may be talking about a different category of pushers.
I have high respect for espeed demton pushers/slicers which are different from the tapper/bunter/blocker/lobber, in my opinion.

I am confident that if you got federer at his best against the best pusher in the world federer would lose.

 

[a10best]

I am confident that if you got federer at his best against the best pusher in the world federer would lose.

Santoro was the best pusher junk baller in the world. Fed was 9-2 H2H and those 2 losses were in 99 and 02'; early in his career but beat him 7 consecutive times after that.
Santoro had a great career but that style only gets you so far.
Actually in his long career, he also beat Sampras, Agassi, Andres, Gomez, Goran, Becker, Muster, Rios, Stich, Brugeura, Hewitt, Safin, Rafter, Haas, Moya, Nabandian, Roddick, and Djokovic.

 

[Pumpkin]

If they tap the ball over the net and you aren’t putting it away you’ve been camping on the baseline perfecting only one shot and it’s not the shot you need to beat pushers.

That comes off harsh but it’s true. Don’t just stand on the baseline expecting them to hit you a rally ball. Watch thier racket, thier footwork, thier setup. Anticipate the shot that’s coming. Move earlier. Get to the ball earlier. Send it wide off court, or at his feet or just hit an outright winner - it doesn’t get much easier to hit winners than no pace pusher balls left short. If those shots come back, Your next ball should be an overhead or volley put away.

Ah hahaha I know what you are thinking. Just work them around and come to the net and knock off the volley? I've got news for you. The second you come to the net they become a proper tennis player and belt a passing shot. They are evil mate.

 

[Pumpkin]

Santoro was the best pusher junk baller in the world. Fed was 9-2 H2H and those 2 losses were in 99 and 02'; early in his career.
Santoro had a great career but that style only gets you so far.
Federer "perfected his shots" and strategy we all see that his ceiling rose.

Don't underestimate them mate. Winning is not their ultimate goal. Destroying your soul is their ultimate goal.

 

[a10best]

Don't underestimate them mate. Winning is not their ultimate goal. Destroying your soul is their ultimate goal.

That was never implied. Different tactics for a very different style of opponent. Adapt and overcome.
This happens in all sports; where two completely opposite style players or teams clash.
finesse vs physical, offensive vs. defensive minded styles.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Perfecting your shots raises your ceiling. The player tapping and bunting no pace balls over the net has a lower max ceiling. As far as I know they don't usually make it deep in 4.0 to 5.0 leagues or tournaments, yet I can't say that for all leagues/tournaments.
The tapper/bunter relies on hustle more than their form. The player with a perfected shot relies on their shot technique, court movement, and mental knowledge.

We need to play our game and strategically attack more. It's a physical game of chess against an opponent that requires some changes.
Example: If 4.5 player John & you split sets or play close matches yet John always destroys the tapper/pusher and you struggle. Then you need to work on your attack and strategy tactics more.

We may be talking about a different category of pushers.
I have high respect for speed demon pushers/slicers which are different from the tapper/bunter/blocker/lobber, in my opinion.

A wise man [@nyta2] wrote that "Pushers are the guardians of 4.0", meaning that if you want to get past 4.0, you have to be able to deal with the pusher, not because 4.0 is rife with pushers but because that's typically the highest that this particular style goes [exceptions exist, of course].

BTW: I define "pusher" as having these characteristics [everyone as a different definition]
- Places the highest emphasis on not making errors
* Things like flashy shots, highlight reel tweeners, Nadalian TS, painting the lines are not what he's after; he knows what he is good at
- Understands [consciously or not] that the typical match is lost due to errors rather than won with winners
- Typically doesn't have a lot of power or spin
- Aims for the fat part of the court [ie the middle]; why? Because aiming there leads to the fewest errors
- Might have "non-traditional" technique
- Slices more than the typical player
- Doesn't go for winners unless the % is heavily in his favor
- Typically does not like moving forward, volleying, or OHs
- His game is optimized for lateral movement; he doesn't typically like longitudinal movement [up and back]
- Typically does not like the opponent coming to the net because that forces him out of his comfort zone: he cannot hit the neutral, high % ball into the middle of the court because for a volleyer, that becomes a relatively easy putaway. Now he has to either go for a passing shot, which is higher reward if he makes it but also higher risk and remember that the pusher is risk-averse so he doesn't like this choice; or he lobs and it comes down to how well the attacker can OH [and I've seen plenty of players melt down because their OH is below par and the pusher can sense that like a shark can smell blood a mile away]




This

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

That was never implied. Different tactics for a very different style of opponent. Adapt and overcome.

This is paramount.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Outstanding post above and spot on. I wish I could favorite this to come back to.

Here ya go

Struggling to bring my A game against pushers

Heyy, So I play with advance players (I won't exactly call myself one, you'll know why as you read). When playing with them, I use their speed while rallying -- not that I cannot generate speed by myself -- but I find it pretty easy to use my opponent's speed when playing with top guys. And...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

 

[a10best]

Hopefully the pusher after beating you in a tournament or league match doesn't;
- go to his phone and play the "na, nah, nah, nah ...na, na, na, hey, hey,... goodbye" song
- say, "you're the first match I played in two weeks due to tennis elbow."

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Hopefully the pusher after beating you in a tournament or league match doesn't;
- go to his phone and play the "na, nah, nah, nah ...na, na, na, hey, hey,... goodbye" song
- say, "you're the first match I played in two weeks due to tennis elbow."

Even worse:
- "I am not left-handed" [after beating you while playing lefty]
- "I've been in a coma for 7 years and just came out of it yesterday."
- "This is only the second time I've played tennis. I normally play Pickleball."
- "Why did you make so many errors?"

 

[a10best]

This is paramount.

In a second match with a pusher/no pace guy, I served and volleyed the whole match and came in a lot . He hated it, lost, and didn't like that I changed my game. Haven't heard from him since. Initially, he practices with me hitting normal height balls for 30minutes but in a match decides to loop them too much. He helped me adapt because I don't like that style of game.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

In a second match with a pusher/no pace guy, I served and volleyed the whole match or came in a lot . He hated it, lost, and didn't like that I changed my game. Haven't heard from him since. He practices with me hitting normal height balls but in a match decided to loop them too much. He helped me adapt.

That's my preferred tactic [if you couldn't guess by my username]. S&V is the worst matchup a pusher can face, IMO. It forces them out of their comfort zone all match long and pushes them to hit shots they don't like hitting [passers=high reward but also high risk]. And their main counter, the lob, typically doesn't work very well against someone comfortable at net.

Well-played!

 

[a10best]

That's my preferred tactic [if you couldn't guess by my username]. S&V is the worst matchup a pusher can face, IMO. It forces them out of their comfort zone all match long and pushes them to hit shots they don't like hitting [passers=high reward but also high risk]. And their main counter, the lob, typically doesn't work very well against someone comfortable at net.

Well-played!

I was an all-in Edberg and Sampras fan. Edberg or Rafter vs. Chang or Pete vs. Agassi were the best of opposite styles. Seeing less beautiful S&V players today due to technology has shaped people's game to lack that skillset.
Moreover, serve & volley is a suicide game in Florida. On clay it's less effective and you deal with the punishing sun and humidity that drains you on those sprints to the net.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I was an all-in Edberg and Sampras fan. Edberg or Rafter vs. Chang or Pete vs. Agassi were the best of opposite styles. Seeing less beautiful S&V players today due to technology has shaped people's game to lack that skillset.
Moreover, serve & volley is a suicide game in Florida. On clay it's less effective and you deal with the punishing sun and humidity that drains you on those sprints to the net.

I hear there are tournaments where everyone has to play with a wood racquet. I still have my Jack Kramer lying around somewhere. But what happens if I break a string? Can modern string machines handle a wood racquet?

 

[FiddlerDog]

In fact, so obese he was trying to hide his huge stomach with a long sleeve sweatshirt.

Huh ?

 

[FiddlerDog]

Santoro was the best pusher junk baller in the world. Fed was 9-2 H2H and those 2 losses were in 99 and 02'; early in his career but beat him 7 consecutive times after that.
Santoro had a great career but that style only gets you so far.
Actually in his long career, he also beat Sampras, Agassi, Andres, Gomez, Goran, Becker, Muster, Rios, Stich, Brugeura, Hewitt, Safin, Rafter, Haas, Moya, Nabandian, Roddick, and Djokovic.

Here is 33 year old Santoro against
Peak 2005 Federer age 23, defending USO champ, #1 ATP

All 3 sets went to 7 games.
Basically a tie match, against Peak Fed.

 

[a10best]

Huh ?

Yeah, when he ran a few times or served it was showing big time. Picture the comedian Kevin James running. Same body type but the dude was very quick and he slapped winners off both sides with beautiful form. His quickness made no sense to me for his size. I think he even slid into a couple of drop shots I hit on a hard court.

 

[a10best]

Here is 33 year old Santoro against
Peak 2005 Federer age 23, defending USO champ, #1 ATP

All 3 sets went to 7 games.
Basically a tie match, against Peak Fed.

I love the magician. His 40 wins against top 10 players from the 90s to retirement is amazing. Yet his W-L against them is very one-sided in their favor.
Ok, so pushers and slicer/dinkers can win against a better player. I think you baited me into it.
He is 7-2 against Safin..wow; 2-2 against Nalbandian, 3-3 against Agassi, 3-4 against Sampras, 1-1 Rafter, 1-1 Becker.
Yet he has no slam singles championships and just one of these wins happened in a slam; 2006 Safin at the FO.

Your point is proven he can win against the elite but ours is proven that this style only goes so far.
You can still have a great career but likely not win it all in singles.

 

[3virgul14]

Btw, Santoro is not a typical weekend pusher, he attacks the net and volleys a lot, plus his low skidding slices are very offensive shots-pace injected.

 

[FiddlerDog]

You can still have a great career but likely not win it all in singles.

 

[vex]

Ah hahaha I know what you are thinking. Just work them around and come to the net and knock off the volley? I've got news for you. The second you come to the net they become a proper tennis player and belt a passing shot. They are evil mate.

If a pusher can hit an on-the-run passing shot off a high pace offensive ball you just ripped off thier weak push… well, they’re not really a pusher as much as they are a great player. In which case, not much you can do but accept that the guy is a better player.

 

[StilltheGOAT]

Here is the TL;DR executive summary:
- Stop judging your opponent as weak
- Stop judging yourself as weak because you are losing to someone you perceive as weak
- Stop carrying around expectations ["I should be able to hit that shot."; "I shouldn't be making so many errors."; "I shouldn't be losing to this hacker." etc.]
- Stop using how you practice against the good players as the benchmark for everything else [ie "If I practice well against X and X would crush the pusher, I should be able to crush the pusher also"]
- Start practicing against pushers: they're obviously doing things that exploit your weaknesses. You need to address those weaknesses, which are not exploited when practicing with the good players as that is not their game style [although they could easily play the role of pusher if you asked them to]
----------------


Suggestions:
- Stop worrying about things you can't control like your opponent's age, playing style, stroke appearance, unathletic appearance, etc. Of course, observe them because they will probably give you useful information: what doesn't he like to do? What are his strengths and weaknesses? How can I use my strength to exploit his weakness and hide my own weaknesses?


- Stop judging your opponent: "But the real problem I face is against the pushers or weak guys." Instead of thinking of them as a pusher or weak, simply analyze them for strengths and weaknesses. Avoid the value judgments.

If you didn't know who Federer was and he came to the court with 1980s clothes and a wooden racquet and just pushed, you might think he's a weak player. You don't have all of the information so you jump to the wrong conclusion. Be slower to reach a conclusion. Give your opponent respect. By disrespecting your opponent [categorizing him as weak], you are setting yourself up for a struggle when you find yourself losing. It's not helping your game; it's hurting it.


- Stop judging yourself: the fact you mentioned he was 4 years younger implies you thought it relevant. Since most of us on this forum are adults, +/- 4 years means nothing. Injuries, or lack thereof, are a lot more important. Heck, I played a kid who 40 years my junior and he was already better than I.

If you mentioned the age difference, you are likely a junior when 4 years can mean a huge difference. Say you're an U18 and he's an U14. Since everyone [including you] "knows" you're supposed to beat him, the loss causes the embarrassment.

You're too worried about what others will think, that's why you're judging yourself harshly. It's like a wearing a weight vest while trying to sprint: it's just going to weigh you down. Even more important than stroke technique, you need to work on the mental side of the game. You're expending too much energy in areas with no payoff [ie "It has started becoming very humiliating and embarrassing for me..." This humiliation and embarrassment is internally-generated. You are the source, not your opponent. Until you learn and internalize that, you will struggle against this type of player]. Instead, you need to practice concentrating on the process ["What am I doing well? What am I doing poorly? I'm making a lot of UEs because I'm overhitting. Let's go for bigger targets, more TS, and stay away from the lines. Vamos!"].


The solution is obvious: your game is calibrated against a certain type of opponent. You do well against the "advance" players because they all hit a certain type of ball in a certain pattern. The reason you do horribly against the "weak" players is two-fold: A) they totally don't fit the pattern you're accustomed to; and B) you tie yourself up in mental knots trying to understand why you're playing poorly and can't come up with an answer.

You're like someone who has trained at sea level but occasionally goes to 20,000' to play a match: your body is calibrated for the atmospheric pressure at sea level. If you go to 20,000' with no time to acclimate, you will struggle to climb a flight of stairs, let alone do something strenuous. The problem isn't the altitude: everyone else is playing just fine. The problem is your lack of preparation. Do you see the analogy? You need to train at least some of the time at 20,000' [or never go to that altitude]. Likewise, you have to train against pushers.

Looked at another way, a well-built car will do wonderfully on the German Autobahn, whizzing smoothly along at 200Km/hr. How well will that car do on an unpaved rocky road with 3' boulders jutting out and big patches of deep mud? Not so well. The car is not optimized for those conditions. Your game is not optimized for pushers...yet.

Changing your technique to handle pushers will be the easy part. The tough part will be changing your mental approach from one of disbelief that you're losing to such a weak player to non-judgmental acceptance of your opponent and getting on with the business of winning the match. Once you can flip that switch, you'll find that a lot of other things just fall into place.

Hey man, that really helps. Thanks.
It's so kind of you to take the time out and write out such a long message, also exercising your mind for my purpose. Thanks.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Hey man, that really helps. Thanks.
It's so kind of you to take the time out and write out such a long message, also exercising your mind for my purpose. Thanks.

You're welcome; I hope it helps you on your journey. Tennis is a game for life, after all.

 

[Jamieson27]

I play a few regularly as practice at my club. It went from 1-6, 2-6 to 6-3,6-2 and if i drop a set it usually is in a tie breaker.
Like what many have said theres a lot of mental in the game against counter punchers.

My #1 rule (for me anyway and borrowed from my squash days) - "if they're running - they're losing" - control the point /dictate the point /play your game.
#2 Patience: I learned to get comfortable rallying - not trying to kill every shot, and like someone mentioned a 10% rule, its similar to what i would do. Set up your shot - dont kill out of impatience or frustration.
#3 Awareness - my particular counter puncher loves to float me a "shiny object", looping second serve with no pace and high bouce hoping i'll blast it into the curtain - knowing that i employ the 10-15% rule. Placed right it wins the point, at worst he returns defensively.

PS. Did a lot of work on Overheads.

 

[StilltheGOAT]

I love these threads because there is always a ton of justification about how the OP is really a good player, with loads of talk about how they beat or are competitive with better players. Of course the OP in these threads never actually loses against the pusher, which makes me question the point of these threads. You claim you already beat the pusher, so what is the problem? Carry on with what you're doing.

Though if you really are struggling against actually pushes and not disrespecting more defensive players who should really be called counterpunchers; the reality is, you're not as good as you think you are. I have seen good club players against good pushers and the pusher is always destroyed, it is rarely close. So if you can really deal with ranked players, you should not be having a problem with genuine pushers.

After reading the helpful answers on this thread, and watching a few videos besides taking court with another pusher, I have come to the following conclusion:-

More than the defensive ability of the pushers, what makes them a lot more difficult to play, is the shot they hit.
The reason I can play match advanced players, is that they hit the ball a lot harder, and deeper. That makes the ball easy to take on the rise. When I play against pushers, the bounce is inside the service line more often than not. And, the ball stands up awkwardly when it comes to my body.

That shouldn't have been a very big problem right? But somehow it is. Now there are 2 things I want you guys to know.
1) I'm from India. On here (At least where I come from) there is little importance given to your footwork. Speed and endurance are seen as the most important, but footwork get little attention. That is why, I focused solely on running fast on the court. But I don't step or split as fast. I'm very lazy to move around, and that is the reason I find playing the better guys easier. They hit the ball near my strike zone.
2) I used to hit with an eastern grip until yesterday.... (switched to eastern from semi two years back)..... eastern is better for using the opponents pace with little loss in power. But against the pushers, I find it really hard to add speed because there is only so much topspin you can add with eastern. (changed to semi yesterday without any problems....)

I have decided to work on my movements and topspin when playing these guys. Let's see how it goes.....