Tennis Elbow: Try a wooden tennis racket...

[ccambil@gmail.com]

I have chronic TE and GE and have been using PK 5G for over a year.

TE/GE has improved significantly but they are still there.

I started using wooden tennis racket ($5 from Salvation army, 65 sqi headsize) 3 weeks ago because i saw a friend of mine using it to improve his accuracy.

The first few days i know i am mis-hitting the ball a lot because the wooden racket keeps vibrating a lot for any mis-hits. I adjusted by aiming better. After 3 weeks i feel less and less racket vibration because i am hitting the ball better (sweetspot) i think.

I also notice that my TE/GE felt better compared to when playing with PK 5G.
I don't know why.

Question:
Is a wooden tennis racket better on the arm than the acclaimed PK 5G?

Or is it because the wood tennis racket forced me to aim better while the PK 5G eliminated all the feel including the mis-hits?

 

[defrule]

Where can you get woods now? Sure want to try one.

 

[ccambil@gmail.com]

where can you get wooden tennis rackets?

wooden tennis rackets are everywhere..

craiglist, salvation army store, value village, garage sales, the web...

 

[pshulam]

A wood tennis racket, in general, is more flexible than a graphite racket. A typical wooden racket has a flex rating in the 40s compared to 60s of a typical graphite racket.

 

[mawashi]

Another convert... sort of to a soft heavy frame.

Let's see why it might be helping you.

Soft, heavy (have you measured that chunk of wood yet?), prob gut strings, since the darn thing is prob so heavy you can't muscle the frame so that is better for your arm (smoother strokes).

Think that says it all.

mawashi

 

[ccambil@gmail.com]

wooden tennis racket spec...

headsize = 65 sqi
weight = 12.8 oz
lenght = 27
balance = almost an inch head light
price = $5 from salvation army, original string
model = bancroft wimbledon bjorn borg, maybe 1970s

 

[v205]

I never recalled this many injury issues in the pre poly days with heavy or light rackets. Is poly the culprit?? It may be suitable for top level physique only.

 

[defrule]

Things to do list, trying a woodie is one.

 

[ccambil@gmail.com]

I never recalled this many injury issues in the pre poly days with heavy or light rackets. Is poly the culprit?? It may be suitable for top level physique only.

It may be true that poly is one major contributing factor. the other one is racket stiffness and i speak from personal experience.

i never had TE/GE when using wood rackets. However, i got one when i bought and used a wilson profile 2.7 (75 flex rating i think). I junked the wilson profile and bought a wilson hammer 6.2 95 (62 flex) and i still got TE again. So now i am back to using woods...

 

[v205]

Try Max 200G, it's a solid feeling noodle.

 

[BreakPoint]

headsize = 65 sqi
weight = 12.8 oz
lenght = 27
balance = almost an inch head light
price = $5 from salvation army, original string
model = bancroft wimbledon bjorn borg, maybe 1970s

That's the unstrung weight, right (printed on the frame)? Because that's pretty light for a wood racquet.

The Bancroft Wimbledon Bjorn Borg sounds like a big box store model and not really a competition racquet so maybe it was lighter. The model that was supposed to be the one that Borg used on tour was the Bancroft Borg Personal (black painted shaft). I used to own one.

 

[pshulam]

The three factors leading to TE are:
1. Technique (how you hit the ball)
2. stiffness of racket
3. stiffness of string

Technique:
- correct timing
- hitting the sweet spot consistently (off-center shots hurt)
- avoiding top spins
- using two-handed backhands

Stiffness of racket
- select flex rating below 60 (e.g., PK Copper Ace, Head Graphite Edge)

Stiffness of string
- select rating below 200 (natural guts, Multifilaments)

My 2 cents worth ..

 

[movdqa]

One of my hitting partners has had huge arm problems the last few years - he's using the Redondo indoors and the K95 outdoors. I suggested that he try the KPS88 yesterday and he hit a few with it and he said that it felt very solid, though, of course, heavy. I think that he hit well with it (he has classic strokes). The KPS88 is rated as 67 and I have Poly at 52 pounds but it feels very soft when I hit with it. So I think that weight may be a factor in arm-friendliness.

My problems with TE were from a widebody. I hit with it for many years and then one time when I went out it hurt quite a bit. This was well before poly came out. I switched to a players racquet which fixed the problem.

I have a number of wood and aluminum racquets in my closet and I use the aluminum racquets from time to time but the wood racquets are all pretty soft. Wood racquets wear out fairly quickly.

If any arm problems return, then I'll just go back to using the Redondo. I've had no problems at all with the KPS88 and I do lift regularly so I don't expect problems with it.

 

[ccambil@gmail.com]

That's the unstrung weight, right (printed on the frame)? Because that's pretty light for a wood racquet.

The Bancroft Wimbledon Bjorn Borg sounds like a big box store model and not really a competition racquet so maybe it was lighter. The model that was supposed to be the one that Borg used on tour was the Bancroft Borg Personal (black painted shaft). I used to own one.

i did not see weight printed on the frame.

i measured the weight using my kitchen scale.

yes this is a big box store model not a player's racket. i just bought from salvation army for $5 just to see how easy it is on my pain-prone forehand.

so far it is an eye opener. this wood racket told me i was not hitting the ball properly 80% of the time. it vibrates a lot when i mishit the ball. however, when i hit the sweetspot, there is virtually no vibration, just s solid 'thud' sound.

after a few weeks (maybe 4) , i know i am hitting the sweetspot 70% of the time because i can no longer feel the vibration.

this is in big contrast to the PK 5G where i feel no vibration most of the time whether i hit the sweetspot or not.

one big difference i notice between the wood and the PK 5G is arm-soreness.
my arm felt a little better with the wood. for a $5 racket, this is amazing...of course playability is another matter. however, my TE takes first priority so i will keep using the wood for a while...

 

[jackcrawford]

one big difference i notice between the wood and the PK 5G is arm-soreness.
my arm felt a little better with the wood. for a $5 racket, this is amazing...of course playability is another matter. however, my TE takes first priority so i will keep using the wood for a while...

On pages 73 and 74 of Levels of the Game by John McPhee it discusses how moving to a steel racket in 1967 from wood cured Clark Graebner's tennis elbow. Oscar Wegner has discussed in his latest McGraw-Hill published book how much more prevalent arm problems were with wood rackets when he played pro tennis in the 50's and 60's than today. If you read back issues of World Tennis from the old days, you will see lots of reports of arm trouble. It is a misconception, perhaps started by the well-meaning site racquetresearch, that modern equipment causes more arm problems than wood did.

 

[ccambil@gmail.com]

using wood forces you to improve your technique..

I think one of the benefits of using a wood tennis racket is that it will tell you if your technique is not correct and it forces you to fix it.

if i miss the sweetspot, the racket vibrates/shakes violently. If i hit the sweetspot, there is virtually no vibration just the 'thud' sound. On the other hand, most supposedly arm-friendly racket will dampen this vibration so you will never know whether you are hitting the sweetspot or not. As a consequence, most arm-friendly rackets fixes the side-effects of incorrect technique instead of fixing the incorrect technique. In effect, arm-friendly rackets will not tell you about your incorrect technique so you will keep doing it.

since using the wood racket, my accuracy has improved (from 80% mis-hits to 30% mishits, i.e not hitting the sweetspot).

using a wood racket is like having a personal trainer: it will tell you what you are doing wrong...

 

[movdqa]

I think that modern racquets cause more problems then wood racquets did. With wood racquets, people gave it up if they couldn't hit because of bad technique or if the bad technique and the heavy racquet resulted in injuries.

If you're a good player, those larger players frame will tell you when you have a bad hit but not directly. You may see it in less depth, less spin, the ball not going where you want it to, etc.

 

[ccambil@gmail.com]

More comfortable: baseball bat made of rubber or made of steel...

Consider 2 baseball bats having the same weight, one made of flexible rubber and the other made of steel.

Imagine hitting a solid concrete wall repeatedly with these two bats as hard as you can. Which do you think wil injure your arm more?

By using just commong sense, most of you will say the steel bat will injure your arm maybe 20x more than the rubber bat and i fully agree.

When you hit the concrete wall with the rubber bat, it flexes and vibrates because it is absorbing the shock. The steel bat will not flex nor vibrate because it is passing on the shock to your arms causing the injury..

My analogy is the rubber bat = wood racket and the steel bat = graphite racket.

On mishits, the wood racket vibrates a lot indicating that it is absorbing the initial shock (it is the initial shock that causes the racket frame to vibrate).
The more flexible the wood, the more it vibrates and the more shock it is absorbing.

Much stiffer rackets made of graphite vibrates less during mishits but transfer more of the shock to your arm, causing more injury. the stiffer the racket, the less vibration but the more shock is transferred to your arm.

 

[BreakPoint]

The three factors leading to TE are:
1. Technique (how you hit the ball)
2. stiffness of racket
3. stiffness of string

Technique:
- correct timing
- hitting the sweet spot consistently (off-center shots hurt)
- avoiding top spins
- using two-handed backhands

Stiffness of racket
- select flex rating below 60 (e.g., PK Copper Ace, Head Graphite Edge)

Stiffness of string
- select rating below 200 (natural guts, Multifilaments)

My 2 cents worth ..

You forgot the weight of the racquet - the lighter it is, the more likely it will cause tennis elbow.

You also forgot the length of the racquet - the longer it is, the more likely it will cause tennis elbow.

Also, aside from the technique (the actual mechanics of your stroke), you are much more likely to develop TE with a one-handed backhand than with a two-handed backhand.

Lastly, age is a great contributor to TE - the older you are, the more brittle and less resilient your tendons become and the more likely you will tear your tendon resulting in TE.

 

[BreakPoint]

On pages 73 and 74 of Levels of the Game by John McPhee it discusses how moving to a steel racket in 1967 from wood cured Clark Graebner's tennis elbow. Oscar Wegner has discussed in his latest McGraw-Hill published book how much more prevalent arm problems were with wood rackets when he played pro tennis in the 50's and 60's than today. If you read back issues of World Tennis from the old days, you will see lots of reports of arm trouble. It is a misconception, perhaps started by the well-meaning site racquetresearch, that modern equipment causes more arm problems than wood did.

All I know is that back in the days of wood, I never saw anyone playing tennis with an arm band. Today, it seems like almost everyone is wearing an arm band of some sort with their big, stiff, light modern racquets.

 

[pshulam]

Lastly, age is a great contributor to TE - the older you are, the more brittle and less resilient your tendons become and the more likely you will tear your tendon resulting in TE.

It may not be a bad idea to switch to other forms of fun, i.e., swimming, walking, biking as one ages since they demand less on shoulders, arms, and knees.

 

[ccambil@gmail.com]

It may not be a bad idea to switch to other forms of fun, i.e., swimming, walking, biking as one ages since they demand less on shoulders, arms, and knees.

I agree it is not a bad idea to switch to other forms of fun.

However, for some of us, tennis is an addiction.

I remember my days without TE. How i missed making those un-returnable servers, killer forehands, making the other guy run from side to side.

Some of us miss those glory days and the only thing preventing us is the TE.

I have to get rid of my TE by educating myself (like TW discussion forums) and experimenting with different rackets (woods, wilson triads, improve techniques like hitting sweetspot 99% of the time etc.).

 

[ilian]

To permanently cure your tennis elbow, you need to buy one of Dunlop's IMF series racquets. They are made of graphite, but the technology Dunlop used (injection moulding) made those racquets transfer close to zero vibrations to your arm. They are more flexible than modern graphite racquets and were made with chopped carbon fibers, reinforced with nylon. You can test those frames just by hitting the floor slightly and hearing the ss
ound that they make compared to the modern graphite frames.

 

[ilian]

On pages 73 and 74 of Levels of the Game by John McPhee it discusses how moving to a steel racket in 1967 from wood cured Clark Graebner's tennis elbow. Oscar Wegner has discussed in his latest McGraw-Hill published book how much more prevalent arm problems were with wood rackets when he played pro tennis in the 50's and 60's than today. If you read back issues of World Tennis from the old days, you will see lots of reports of arm trouble. It is a misconception, perhaps started by the well-meaning site racquetresearch, that modern equipment causes more arm problems than wood did.

I am not sure why anyone would try to suggest that softer frames (like wood ones) would cause more TE or any other arm damage, caused by transferred shock, than stiffer frames (like graphite ones). I personally share the opinion of the racquetresearch website and don't think it is a misconception. Wood racquets may have been heavier and thus causing more fatigue, but they definitely did not cause more arm injury due to transfered shock. Actually, the heavier the racquet, the more stable it is at impact with the ball so that is a good thing since you don't have to muscle through with your arm... You can generate much more power and a heavy ball with a heavier racquet than you can ever do with a lighter one. Just try to hit a nail with the wood (light) handle of a hammer and see how easy it will be to nail it down. Then, turn the hammer around and hit the nail with the metal (heavy) part of it and see what happens. No matter how hard you hit the nail with the handle, you will not be able to get that nail moving. On the other hand, you just tap the nail with the metal part of the hammer, without much force, and low and behold, the nail moves like going into butter...

 

[Boricua]

I never recalled this many injury issues in the pre poly days with heavy or light rackets. Is poly the culprit?? It may be suitable for top level physique only.

Dead poly strung over 50.

 

[movdqa]

With wood racquets, a lot of people that tried tennis gave up on it pretty soon afterwards as they tired of spending all of their time picking up balls.

 

[Anton]

I never recalled this many injury issues in the pre poly days with heavy or light rackets. Is poly the culprit?? It may be suitable for top level physique only.

But in pre-poly days the rackets were also heavier and more flexy.

I think racket stability is the biggest factor.

 

[TennisMaverick]

I am not sure why anyone would try to suggest that softer frames (like wood ones) would cause more TE or any other arm damage, caused by transferred shock, than stiffer frames (like graphite ones). I personally share the opinion of the racquetresearch website and don't think it is a misconception. Wood racquets may have been heavier and thus causing more fatigue, but they definitely did not cause more arm injury due to transfered shock. Actually, the heavier the racquet, the more stable it is at impact with the ball so that is a good thing since you don't have to muscle through with your arm... You can generate much more power and a heavy ball with a heavier racquet than you can ever do with a lighter one. Just try to hit a nail with the wood (light) handle of a hammer and see how easy it will be to nail it down. Then, turn the hammer around and hit the nail with the metal (heavy) part of it and see what happens. No matter how hard you hit the nail with the handle, you will not be able to get that nail moving. On the other hand, you just tap the nail with the metal part of the hammer, without much force, and low and behold, the nail moves like going into butter...

The greatest amount of elbow injuries occurred during the wood era. One reason was definitely do the the fact that OHBHs ruled 99% of the playing population. Today, the majority arm joint issues are wrist and shoulder, not to mention overall joint issues of the back, hip and knee, which were not as prevalent as they are today.

 

[makinao]

In the "old days", most models of rackets were offered in three weights, light (about 12 oz), medium (13-14 oz), and heavy (15-16 oz). So when you bought a racquet, you specified the weight and grip size you wanted. Apparently, companies stopped that practice sometime in the 90s. My first racquet was a hand-me-down from an uncle was a medium, so until the 90's, all my racquets were medium 4 5/8.

I've used wood, composite, metal, and graphite racquets. I've used standard lengths and longbodies, thin bodies and widebodies. I've had small heads, mids, mid plusses, and over sizes. The only type of racket I never had was head-heavy. The only racquet that ever gave me tennis elbow was the 2009 Pure Drive Plus with Cortex.

 

[Devilito]

With wood racquets, a lot of people that tried tennis gave up on it pretty soon afterwards as they tired of spending all of their time picking up balls.

tennis was a far more popular sport when people had only wood racquets to play with

 

[Anton]

tennis was a far more popular sport when people had only wood racquets to play with

Golf wasn't around

 

[Player#1]

Wood racquet tennis has a better feel and is effective with a broader range of shots. Unless you are competing in the juniors or have a shot at winning open tourneys, I don't know why you would choose anything over a wood racquet.

 

[TennisMaverick]

Wood racquet tennis has a better feel and is effective with a broader range of shots. Unless you are competing in the juniors or have a shot at winning open tourneys, I don't know why you would choose anything over a wood racquet.

Dude....I played my first event with a wood frame in '81, and switched to graphite by the middle of '82. There is NO way that I could do with wood with what I could do with my Kneissl White Star Lendl Pro, and there is absolutely no way I could hit the same shots with a wood frame which I can now hit with a BB DC nano carbon frame. I mess around with my old Snawaert fairly frequently as a training tool, but I certainly lose a lot at net and with return of serve, for sure. It's also tough to hood high balls; it is nearly impossible to hit low balls with curved topspin; taking balls on the rise and hitting short angle cross court 6 feet in front of the service line is impossible, totally; and ripping a passing shot moving backwards, especially from behind the baseline, JUST AIN'T HAPPENING. If you can hit those shots with a wood stick, I would counter that you are a character playing tennis in Japanese anime in the Prince of Tennis.

 

[Mick]

With wood racquets, a lot of people that tried tennis gave up on it pretty soon afterwards as they tired of spending all of their time picking up balls.

haha. but then there are also plenty of people who are using modern oversize racquets who would spend a lot of the time picking up the balls too

 

[Mick]

wooden tennis rackets are everywhere..

craiglist, salvation army store, value village, garage sales, the web...

it's tougher if you want to get new (unused) wooden racquets but they can still be found.

 

[PrinceMoron]

I steer clear of sports where I am likely to do myself an injury. Coaches should be blunt and tell most of their clients to try fishing or something else in their feetime. It is just not bad technique and wanting to run before they can walk, but if people don't have the flexibility/strength needed, they are just asking for trouble.

I have every sympathy for people with good technique who play a style that suits their physique, but who have injuries. But the rest just need to be told the truth.

 

[li0scc0]

tennis was a far more popular sport when people had only wood racquets to play with

Because there were only 4 channels and no video gaming systems and no Facebook.
Now juniors, instead of playing tennis, watch TV, waste their life on Facebook, and play video games.
Oh wait, that is what adults do too.

 

[dpli2010]

My experience in how to correct the tennis elbow issue with the current rackets is (1) improve your timing; (2) do not grip your racket tight and; (3) make your swing a smooth one (this has to be done by combining with (1)).

 

[dpli2010]

And switching to a less rigid racket helps too...

 

[JSummers]

I know we are talking about rackets. But in case folks here are bothered by TE, an exercise like this that helped my friend. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsKGbqA9aNo&feature=fvwrel

Just sharing a tip.

 

[sunof tennis]

You forgot the weight of the racquet - the lighter it is, the more likely it will cause tennis elbow.

You also forgot the length of the racquet - the longer it is, the more likely it will cause tennis elbow.

Also, aside from the technique (the actual mechanics of your stroke), you are much more likely to develop TE with a one-handed backhand than with a two-handed backhand.

Lastly, age is a great contributor to TE - the older you are, the more brittle and less resilient your tendons become and the more likely you will tear your tendon resulting in TE.

Ouch-that last factor you listed hit too close to home.

 

[LeeD]

From a guy who played 4 years when wood was king.
PLENTY of guys had tennis and shoulder problems using wood rackets.
Keeping the stroke as simple as possible caused the least stress.
Modern style is big swing and loopy REPEATED strokes.
The more balls you hit, the more chances of getting some kind of overuse injury.

 

[big-banger]

All I know is that back in the days of wood, I never saw anyone playing tennis with an arm band. Today, it seems like almost everyone is wearing an arm band of some sort with their big, stiff, light modern racquets.

good point ! it s ironic eh ?

 

[Ronaldo]

good point ! it s ironic eh ?

Don't get fooled again, TE was a problem BITD of wood too. But is was usually due to poor technique. And one-handed BH.

 

[dpli2010]

This does help a lot!

 

[dpli2010]

I meant this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xfb3DS_tqA&feature=related

 

[DeShaun]

My take on this question is that the sweet spot in a woody is much more rewarding in terms of being able to produce a gently rifled ball--not one hit flat, but one hit with moderate spin--albeit it, understandably, along a flatter trajectory than one hit with most mid size or larger rackets. I do not know why this is from a physics standpoint but am certain that the smaller the hoop is, the more closely I watch the ball with my feet as they say, and the better my hitting positions seem to be.
But there is no denying that woodies feel really nice on the arm.