I don't find this fun at all. The same way I wouldn't find it fun to make fun of you for having diabetes.
The Drop Serve: Too Bush League to Consider?
- Thread starter SouthernCourts
- Start date
I don't find this fun at all. The same way I wouldn't find it fun to make fun of you for having diabetes.
McLovin
Legend
I was listening to the Tennis Podcast 'Beyond the Baseline' a couple weeks ago, and Wertheim had Pam Shriver on. Pam was talking about how she played in her club's mixed doubles tournament with her son this past year. Her shoulder is apparently shot and can no longer serve overhand. She served the entire match underhand, and they won. She even served & volleyed off it.
The funny thing was, apparently one of her opponents was a highly ranked junior, and he would constantly crank his return into the bottom of the net. She said he had no idea what to do w/ her serve.
So, if its good enough for a multi-major winner at the club level, then it should be 'ok' for any of us hacks.
The funny thing was, apparently one of her opponents was a highly ranked junior, and he would constantly crank his return into the bottom of the net. She said he had no idea what to do w/ her serve.
So, if its good enough for a multi-major winner at the club level, then it should be 'ok' for any of us hacks.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
It's good to know you're such a well-mannered person.
Frost5541
Professional
oh, you mean to say its hard to chase it down? then either request your opponent not to do that (just a normal match, for fun), or get better at running.
No it isn't hard to chase them down for me. But I'm also not your average tennis player as I'm still relatively young and in great physical shape. It's not going to be an effective tactic against me. The only time it would be is if I'm not ready and I'm going to call a let on you and make you serve again.
My issue with it is the fact it's only effective against people who 1) aren't ready 2) have physical limitations.
Congrats if you're like @MathGeek and you want to feel better about yourself by hitting a drop shot serve against the 300 lb guy or 65 year old with double hip replacements who's just trying to have fun playing social tennis.
MathGeek
Hall of Fame
Actually, it's usually the other players using it against me, including an older guy with much more limited mobility.
But this is REC TENNIS. We all have physical limitations.
But if it is to be a legitimate competitive sport, isn't the basic idea to choose strategies and tactics that optimize our strengths and take advantage of the opponents' limitations?
Otherwise, how is it any different from fishing? Or hiking? Or other non-competitive activities?
Why if one's physical limitation is a slow reaction time? (It is one of mine.) Should opponents not hit the ball so hard?
That's just dumb.
tennis tom
Legend
If you can get the serve into the box they have to play you--that's why THE SERVE is the most important shot to learn first and foremost and to spend valuable time practicing the techniques and the locations.
I think I understand what you are describing here and I use it on rare occasions although never in a tournament or a competitive serious match. This is NOT an easy shot to pull off and it's one that I've never practiced. It's like a drop-shot, very low percentage and to be tried only when all the conditions are there, opponent lingering way back and you're ahead on the score so you can waste a point--or out of desperation or mirth. The last point in the epic Eisner-Mahut three day marathon match 70-68 set, was Mahut losing it on a "drop-shot", likely from bodymind fatigue and just wanting to get it done and to hit the bed.
If you win using it will not hurt your reputation, only with the losers. Good players will admire a cleverly played stroke by their opponent and be amused and motivated by it--adding another element of fun to the match mix. Michael Chang, while cramping, successfully used an under-hand serve, out of desperation against Lendl, and it made his reputation for persistence--whatever works.
The "drop-shot" serve is a very difficult shot to pull off and nine out of ten times I've tried it, it goes into the net--but it's fun to try. If an opponent takes offense at it--then they are a *****. Maybe I need to practice these and drop-shots occasionally--but only in private.
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S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
IMO, the reason this is happening is that you're trying to hit a great DSS, where the margin of error is small. Unless you're playing a jackrabbit, you only need to hit a good or even just a decent one. Even if your opponent gets to the ball, his momentum will be forward and he'll be vulnerable to the lob. You should also be closing in to the net to cut off his angles. If you do that twice to someone in a set, you may seriously deplete their energy reserves. Twice in one game could be deadly.
I found out that my limit is 3: I had to sprint from the net diagonally back behind the BL to cover a lob over my partner, then run to the other side to cover another lob, then a 3rd time. After that, I couldn't sprint anymore.
tennis tom
Legend
Thank you for the tips, yes better-over-then-under--especially over the net, hitting into the net gets you nowhere. It's just my bad luck I keep getting Usain Bolt in the first rounds.
In order to do that I would have to take a time out to get my wheel-chair out of the trunk of the Honda.
SouthernCourts
Semi-Pro
Really fun reading all these responses, thanks. For the record, I would never use it against an older opponent, or someone who couldn't run for whatever reason, as that would be a dick move. Nor would I use it more than twice in a match. I just imagine being up something like 4-3, 40-30, on my serve, and needing to win a critical point, and pulling it out of the holster just for that one moment. I'm still sort of undecided, but I love the debate.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Hmm, Bolt would definitely qualify for "jackrabbit" status. So the solution is simple: just pull out the Isner/Karlovic/Raonic serve and back him up to the fence. Then pull out the dropper. This strategy stuff is so easy.
MathGeek
Hall of Fame
I think this is the key point most rec players fail to see. Even if the opponent gets to the ball, odds are they are stuck at the net, likely did not make a good return, and now very vulnerable to your next shot. Drop serves (and shots) don't need to be winners to create a huge advantage in the point.
And further, odds are they will bring your opponents forward in anticipation of you doing it again. Thus your serves with pace will be more effective.
Out of shape players will always be at a disadvantage even against mediocre drop serves if they fail to put away the return. Shoot, I consider myself among the more fit players in my tennis circles, and I have a hard time defending against servers with both a big serve and a decent drop or dink serve.
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
If the server drop serves in doubles, can the returner's partner at the net play the return?
SouthernCourts
Semi-Pro
I'm pretty sure the answer is no, but I do know that in World Team Tennis, where you don't play lets, the net man can return a let serve that lands in the box. I have only played one WTT match, and this didn't come up, but I really want to do it at least once for the novelty.
OrangePower
Legend
That's right. And I've been curious about that WTT rule:
One of the reasons for playing let serves is to remove the need to call lets. In the college game, there had been cases of players cheating by calling phantom lets, so playing let serves simplified things.
So back to WTT; service lets are not called. But after a service let, either player on the return team can return.
But what about returning a non-let serve? The phrasing of the WTT rules makes it sound like the 'either player can return' part applies only for a let serve. But there is no call or decision made for a let serve. So what if returner's partner returns the serve (any serve) and then claims that it was a let serve?
SouthernCourts
Semi-Pro
It's an interesting question, but I don't think it's super practical. First, isn't it illegal for the doubles partner to stand in the box? So for this to work, you'd have to stand close to the center line, hit a weird volley off the serve, and then either hope it was a let or lie about it being a let. I don't see it being a major problem, haha.
OrangePower
Legend
Pretty sure that per the rules, returner's partner can stand anywhere.
Here's what could happen - all in theory. You are returning from the ad court, partner from deuce. Your partner has been 'on', and returning better than you. Critical point coming up on the ad side. You step a bit aside, and your partner gets ready to return from ad (wrong) side. Opponents can complain, but this is totally within the rules so far - there is no restriction on where you or your partner have to stand for the return.
Opponent serves, your partner returns, and you both claim it was a let serve.
Since WTT does not cover calling let serves, and in fact states that let should never be called on serve (you lose the point if you call let on a serve), who's to say?
Obviously a contrived extreme example, but I think it points out the logical hole in the WTT rules.
If you are not going to recognize let serves, then you cannot have any rule that is specific to a let serve.
So either require the official returner to always return (partner cannot return let serve), or else make it a free for all and let anyone return anything!
SouthernCourts
Semi-Pro
That's really interesting. Even in a less complicated way, you could have your partner stand up the middle while you stand in the alley, letting you both cover more ground.
Frost5541
Professional
honestly, @Startzel seems like a person i would hate playing with. you complain too much. if i am able to get better racquet and ball manipulation skills, i would and will use the drop serve anytime! seen fed's tornado drop? it will be effective against almost anybody (unless your in a great phys condition, which you dont sound like)
we're obliged to have a slight chuckle here and there. hell, i would even ask to play the point again cause its literally just for laughs. i could do it in a match and still ask for the point to be either replayed or given to my opponent entirely.
now youre just pissing me off. if you dont like it, explicitly explain that to your playing partner.
we're obliged to have a slight chuckle here and there. hell, i would even ask to play the point again cause its literally just for laughs. i could do it in a match and still ask for the point to be either replayed or given to my opponent entirely.
now youre just pissing me off. if you dont like it, explicitly explain that to your playing partner.
The WTT rules specifically say "let serve". So, yes, you could still play a "phantom let" and let your partner return the serve if you are supposed to receive. Obviously, if they were to clear this loophole, it would mean that "either player may return any serve" so one person could just return the whole game. In order to avoid this from happening, players would be required to be in some sort of mandatory formation, sort of like volleyball I guess. I'm guessing the starting returning positions for "any player may return the serve" type of rule would make the formations resemble table tennis doubles serve return formation.
As far as to where you're allowed to stand, that answer is "anywhere you want". You could technically have both players standing in the doubles alley opposite of the service box the serve must land in. You could have both players standing at the net like volleyball. One thing to point out is that the ball MUST bounce inside the box before you hit it, even in WTT. If the serve hits the tape and bounces 10 ft. in the air somehow, you or your partner still must let the ball bounce before hitting it. You wouldnt be allowed to hit it in the air even if it hits the tape.
The most bizzare thing about WTT rules is that you lose the point if you call a let for a serve that hits the tape. If both teams call a let, the point is replayed. For some reason, that just seems wrong to me. If both teams call a let on a serve, someone should win the point.
I served underhand for about a month while recovering from an injury, both playing singles ladder matches and in mixed doubles league matches. I didn't do it for the element of surprise; gave opponents notice that I'd be serving underhanded. Didn't get punished much more than my normal subpar serves would, in my opinion. Used exaggerated slice.
I personally wouldn't be upset if someone tried a surprise underhand drop serve, but can see how others would, so have not employed such a tactic.
I personally wouldn't be upset if someone tried a surprise underhand drop serve, but can see how others would, so have not employed such a tactic.
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
lol, it's only annoying to me if my opponent is successful...
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
got invited to play some 3.0-3.5 tennis... i played a couple sets this weekend serving this way... i had a lot of fun
honestly, they had a better chance returning my underhand serve, than they did returning my kicker
lol, i've caught plenty of young folks 20's-and-in-shape...
yes they signaled they were ready (ie. i showed them the ball, and they nodded)... but they weren't ready for the quick service motion
that said it usually never works more than once against good players... and most folks >=4.0 are quick to pick up on the different service motion (ie. your arm moves in the opposite direction), and quickly rush in...
BaddJordan
New User
When I need a switch in momentum, I sometimes pull it out. If you do it and you have shame doing it, you'll lose the match.
First time it happened to me it caught me by surprise. It was one of the better players in my league who was suffering from a bad knee and who got pissed at me because I had been practicing my serve a lot and aced him a couple of times that night, which was quite rare against this guy. He had a pretty high-bouncing kick serve and I had backed up more than usual behind the baseline, and he got me. He tried it again later in the match and I was a bit quicker to jump on it and hit a forehand back at him about as hard as I could, which went out by a bit, but made him jump. The third time he did it, I wound up big and then chopped a little drop shot back over the net, totally taking him by surprise and pissing him off as much as I had been when he drop served on me. That was the last time he did it. Several other people have drop served on me the past few years but I've always been expecting it a bit so I've not been caught by surprise. Usually the drop shot back keeps them from trying it again, but once when the ball bounced up pretty high, I bashed a hard forehand at the feet of the net player which was a successful strategy.
tennis tom
Legend
I don't understand getting pissed off at any legal shot. To me it would be a wake-up call to change things around, to be more alert, to move-in on my return a step. I would relish the opportunity to change and hopefully improve. If he's got a bad knee, maybe he shouldn't be playing--the adage is "don't play injured", he should be on the deck holding an ice-bag, and having a beer with the rest of the week-end wounded warriors. Or, he should take his lumps like a man, suck it up--or move onto golf or croquet, where vigorous running is not required. I can see being pissed off at an opponent who is cheating, or trying to get in your head with gamesmanship but not due to a well executed shot.
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Shaolin
G.O.A.T.
For those that enjoy doing the drop shot serve, I came up with a way to do it that I haven't seen anyone do before and it really works if you time it right. It is however more difficult to do than the typical Chang type drop shot serve.
Basically you go about your serve routine normally, bounce the ball then do the toss normally. Then you stay in the trophy pose and freeze that way as the ball drops. Before the ball hits the ground sweep under the ball in your same service grip and impart massive underspin.
This way is difficult but if you time it right you can get the ball to cut to the side about 4-5 feet after it drops. Its easier on the ad side as a righty but you can do it on the deuce side down the T also. I had an ace against a 5.5 D1 college player down the T and have won a lot of points with it, many of which the opponent doesnt even move.
Since its difficult to do no one has gotten upset about me doing it, usually its the opposite, they like seeing a new serve they've never seen.
Hope you guys give it a try.
Basically you go about your serve routine normally, bounce the ball then do the toss normally. Then you stay in the trophy pose and freeze that way as the ball drops. Before the ball hits the ground sweep under the ball in your same service grip and impart massive underspin.
This way is difficult but if you time it right you can get the ball to cut to the side about 4-5 feet after it drops. Its easier on the ad side as a righty but you can do it on the deuce side down the T also. I had an ace against a 5.5 D1 college player down the T and have won a lot of points with it, many of which the opponent doesnt even move.
Since its difficult to do no one has gotten upset about me doing it, usually its the opposite, they like seeing a new serve they've never seen.
Hope you guys give it a try.
Some people are quite egotistical and overly proud of their skills at sports. This guy at one point in his life had probably been at least a 4.5 or 5.0 and I believe he may have played in college, but he was used to being the star of our 3.5 league and felt he had a monopoly on hitting impressive winners. Part of the issue may have been that I had such a pathetically bad serve when I first started in the league that he could not believe that I had been able to practice enough to regain my form from many years ago and hit hard, quality serves in the latter portion of our season. I'm sure part of it, too, is temporarily misplaced anger. When he hit the first drop serve on me that caught me so badly by surprise, I got angry and my initial thought was that was a cheap, bush league shot, and he did it to be cocky and to belittle me. A moment later I was still angry, but mostly mad at myself for having been surprised and caught unaware. I'm sure some of the expression I saw on his face was anger at himself for getting outsmarted. I deliberately hit the drop return back that third time because I figured with his knee wrap and slowed mobility, there was no way he was going to get to it, plus there was some poetic justice in giving him back a taste of his own medicine.
Some people are quite egotistical and overly proud of their skills at sports. This guy at one point in his life had probably been at least a 4.5 or 5.0 and I believe he may have played in college, but he was used to being the star of our 3.5 league and felt he had a monopoly on hitting impressive winners. Part of the issue may have been that I had such a pathetically bad serve when I first started in the league that he could not believe that I had been able to practice enough to regain my form from many years ago and hit hard, quality serves in the latter portion of our season. I'm sure part of it, too, is temporarily misplaced anger. When he hit the first drop serve on me that caught me so badly by surprise, I got angry and my initial thought was that was a cheap, bush league shot, and he did it to be cocky and to belittle me. A moment later I was still angry, but mostly mad at myself for having been surprised and caught unaware. I'm sure some of the expression I saw on his face was anger at himself for getting outsmarted. I deliberately hit the drop return back that third time because I figured with his knee wrap and slowed mobility, there was no way he was going to get to it, plus there was some poetic justice in giving him back a taste of his own medicine.
drop server or unhand serve is perfectly legal. and a changeup is a great tactic.
after all, why would you give the opponents what they like? you feed them balls they dont like if you want to win!
if you do this all the time, usually the opponents can get use to it very soon, and kill the returns for winners
funny story, my wife in a 4.0 ladies doubles match was having trouble serving, ie started to double fault in the 10 tiebreak, so on match point she hit an underhand serve to her
opponent who promptly dropped it into the net. the opponent went "crazy" not abusive, but started to talk to everyone about how she was
a good player, and couldnt believe it. i was watching and had to restrain myself from laughing out loud. all the spectators and opponents team members just
"rolled their eyes" and said, that is the way she is, she cant stand to lose!
very entertaining!
have fun
z
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
I was thinking about this thread while practicing serves yesterday.
Let's face it, 3.5 2nd serves are fairly useless.
They are at a nice comfortable pace.
I bet at 3.5 an underhanded drop serve is more effective than a proper 2nd serve.
I can totally picture either getting an ace or them just blasting it into the net or long.
I am very tempted to try this.
It is a totally legitimate strategy to bring opponent closer to return your big 1st serve.
A big 1st becomes pointless if that's all you got, and the guy waits 5 feet behind baseline.
For that, drop serve seems like a smart tactical move.
I see it as no different than serving down the T after serving wide for a few games.
Let's face it, 3.5 2nd serves are fairly useless.
They are at a nice comfortable pace.
I bet at 3.5 an underhanded drop serve is more effective than a proper 2nd serve.
I can totally picture either getting an ace or them just blasting it into the net or long.
I am very tempted to try this.
It is a totally legitimate strategy to bring opponent closer to return your big 1st serve.
A big 1st becomes pointless if that's all you got, and the guy waits 5 feet behind baseline.
For that, drop serve seems like a smart tactical move.
I see it as no different than serving down the T after serving wide for a few games.
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
If someone can't return a drop serve, it means they are bad at tennis.
Deal with it. This will dismantle a 3.5, since they have almost no concept of an approach shot.
Almost none know extreme topspin while charging the net. Most will hit it WAY long.
Deal with it. This will dismantle a 3.5, since they have almost no concept of an approach shot.
Almost none know extreme topspin while charging the net. Most will hit it WAY long.
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
Even the #1 ranked player in the world can not return a drop serve!
shamaho
Professional
One player on the top 3 or 4 on my club's very competitive ladder tournament has as his second serve exactly what you suggest.
I can tell you that that serve is very very hard to attack by hitting hard as you say, you cannot club the ball as it would go into the back fence.
The only viable solution for me at least was to chip the ball and charge the net.
Excuse my brevity, sent from mobile on puny keyboard and rocking public transport
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
i like bharami's version:
Shaolin
G.O.A.T.
Yeah I do that one also but not sure if its legal. Bahrami is kind of hero of mine. I posted my own tennis tricks video here awhile back..here is the thread..
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/my-tennis-tricks-video.504963/
SouthernCourts
Semi-Pro
I practice this once in a while, it's awesome. Horribly inconsistent still, so I haven't tried it in a match, but the side-spin is so awesome when you get it right.
Shaolin
G.O.A.T.
Yeah you have to practice it a lot to actually use it. it helps to have a fresh string job or tight tension in general, and aiming short. Easy to hit it long. But when you get it right the sidespin is insane.
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
In the Brahimi video, what was the first serve in the video?
Was that just a regular ace? Why "so clever" ?
Was that just a regular ace? Why "so clever" ?
stapletonj
Hall of Fame
unless you are injured, or are are match point in a tourney you are 100% sure you will never come back to for the rest of your life, just don't do this.
even in a tourney, 20 years later when your child plays that tourney, they will be known as the child of "THAT guy" and suffer accordingly
even in a tourney, 20 years later when your child plays that tourney, they will be known as the child of "THAT guy" and suffer accordingly
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
i believe he hit it with the opposite side of the racquet... ie a reverse slice (ie. a righty hitting a lefty slice).... interesting serve, and have actually encountered it in usta 4.5 (was vs a teaching pro when he was up 40-love)
but like the drop shot, you get used to the movement cue, and anticipate it... but if you can execute it consistently, it's definitely a good change of pace (like varying fast/slow, top/flat/slice/reverseslice, deep/short, etc...)
Shaolin
G.O.A.T.
Yes it was a reverse slice. There are videos of Tursunov and Rosol doing good ones online. I like to hit it occasionally but it hurts my shoulder.
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Angle Queen
Professional
Too funny.
And I, too, while far from a winner (of any kind, for that matter), like to use it against overly aggressive youngsters. They've no clue what to do with it.
The other situation I'll use it in is if I've been serving well and the returner has inched further and further back...I'll throw it in when I'm up in the game and mostly on the ad side (esp if against a lefty receiver). Had it happen to me a few times. Sometimes, I get to it, other times not...but always have a good laugh with the attempter when it transpires.
Bash and Crash
Semi-Pro
Been teaching one of my older students who has shoulder issues and she now holds serve 60-70% of the time at 3.5 level. Other older ladies hate returning it. I told her I would teach her, but she had to be ready for lots of swearing and grumbling. What is interesting is that as I teach her I'm also playing around with it and now can kick the ball sideways a few feet pretty easily, and also have a little power cutter, and one that barely clears net then kicks sideways. I don't use in match play out of respect for opponents and my shoulder is fairly healthy. But, since she now has multiple underhand serves she is very dangerous player and winning much more.
OrangePower
Legend
Well, if you and your opponent are competitive in level, then any legal shot is appropriate. I personally don't think the drop serve is effective so I would not use it myself, but if someone thinks it gives them an advantage, then have at it.
But if your opponent is lower level than you, then yes I think it's disrespectful to hit certain shots against them, the drop serve being one of them.
Bash and Crash
Semi-Pro
Good one. No but playing with 4.5-5.0 players and serving underhand it will be hard to find hitting partners. Most struggle returning my serves anyway so not that much of an advantage. Hit whatever works, or what you like. I like to hit hard and seems to work.
BTurkoglu
New User
I normally hit hard serves and I have come up against players that stand well behind the baseline. Nowadays, I let my opponents know before the first point that I may hit underhand serves. Never sneaky but I have learned to break it severely to the right or left. Most don't have a problem with me doing it.
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