The Tennis Serve - What's True?

[Chas Tennis]

Notice also that both Stosur's arm and racket are about in line.

For flat and slice serves the trunk and body tilt forward, arm tilts forward and the racket is about vertical from the side view at impact. (Of course from the behind camera view the racket appears tilted left.)

Federer kick serve racket tilt at impact with arm and racket aligned from side view, same as Stosur. This one is during impact as the ball is squished. Always notice if the racket appears to be short as it does here - why is that?

Toly's composite pictures really show how different the paths of the hands are for the flat and kick serves.

This thread has a lot of information on the racket tilt, how to video it and some general kick serve information.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/junior-twist-serve.643500/

Stosur seems very acrobatic on her serve, is she a good model?

This Toly video shows very clearly a very important fact (or issue?) regarding the Kick Serve. The racket face has a closed angle for the racket's first touch of the ball and is significantly tilted in comparison to the flat serve when viewed from the side camera angle. About 10-15 degrees closed tilt for the kick serve. About 0-3 degrees for flat and slice serves in the side camera view.

Similar side camera views of kick serves should all show this closed tilt. Kick serve for right hander should bounce high and to the right from the server's point of view.

This issue needs some more publications, so please post if your find any.

If you don't have that closed racket tilt for impact, you will never get a kick serve. True or False?

 

[Digital Atheist]

[..]
Fully pronated is in the follow through and servers do not have to do it because they can slow down in a variety of ways. If you look at high speed videos you will find some high level serves that do not get to 'fully pronated'. In other words, nothing specific after impact - like 'fully pronated' - is necessary to impact the ball effectively. Still, many ATP servers do get to 'fully pronated'.

So while this is true, I would still argue that long axis rotation is important, and that action naturally places the hand in a slightly turned out position after contact; that is in the vast majority of cases, but not always, as you have stated. It doesn't have to be the ridiculous ISR demonstrated by Isner to be successful, even at the pro level - on that we agree.

But how many top servers on the ATP can you name that don't do this to some degree or another? Occasionally Kyrgios doesn't, and he is the only one I can think of. Andy Murray might qualify, if it weren't for his second serve weakness. Karue Sell from MyTennisHQ (YT) doesn't always either, and he actually serves well for a dude his height (and that's on the pro circuit).

So if that's the sample size, I would say it is an important aspect of a reliable pro level top 100 serve ... but beneath that, not so much.

 

[Serve Doc]

I've posted before about needless dissection of minutia unless you're curing cancer....it can be very simple to solve issues we face with even the highest level serves and it's easier to convey and for them to apply effectively. Not sure why it has to be so convoluted with complex terminology. Try teaching players of international backgrounds with big language barriers and you'll realize your words are not understood or are misinterpreted at best so you have to be very creative to get results. I personally would run from coaches trying to impress me by trying to talk scientifically over my head and it didn't have any positive impact.

 

[Chas Tennis]

So while this is true, I would still argue that long axis rotation is important, and that action naturally places the hand in a slightly turned out position after contact; that is in the vast majority of cases, but not always, as you have stated. It doesn't have to be the ridiculous ISR demonstrated by Isner to be successful, even at the pro level - on that we agree.

But how many top servers on the ATP can you name that don't do this to some degree or another? Occasionally Kyrgios doesn't, and he is the only one I can think of. Andy Murray might qualify, if it weren't for his second serve weakness. Karue Sell from MyTennisHQ (YT) doesn't always either, and he actually serves well for a dude his height (and that's on the pro circuit).

So if that's the sample size, I would say it is an important aspect of a reliable pro level top 100 serve ... but beneath that, not so much.

I ignore after impact parts of the strokes, unless they are interesting. My tennis stroke bucket list overwhelms me. Top of my list is racket approach to the ball and associated biomechanics. I'm 81.....


'Fully Pronate' Issue - How many ATP servers fully pronate, always, most serves, some serves, not observed in 8 serves
(Note 'Pronate' is in use but a misleading term since Internal Shoulder Rotation is much more significant and completely left out.)

I hope some interested readers will randomly select a few ATP servers, look at a few of their flat or slice serves and post their results. Get a list of the top 100 ATP players and randomly select a few players and find a few serve videos. Compilations often have several players with several serves from each player.

#1 ATP server - 4 serves fully pronated , 1 serve not fully pronated
serve video link.

#2 ATP server...........
....................
#3 .............
...........
#4

Many wide spread tennis beliefs are false and a few high speed videos show that they are false.

 

[Chas Tennis]

To view single frame on Youtube, stop video, go full screen and use the period & comma keys. Observe when she breaks off looking at the ball by her head orientation.

In the above video - 2024 - Sabalenka does not view the ball nearly as long as most ATP servers. Most ATP servers view the ball longer, but are not still viewing it at impact. A few do view at impact. I studied this some years ago, but not recently. For kick serves, breaking off viewing may be earlier for ATP players.

Sabalenka serve lesson video from 2021. Very high toss and breaking off looking at the ball very early. Her Trophy Position (TP) has a pause due to waiting for the high toss timing. Many ATP servers do not have a pause but move through TP.

 

[Chas Tennis]

The problem with AI when it comes to True or False -

Artificial Intelligence weighs in by creating new false information, lots of it. AI should be required to take a Biomechanics 101 course or else it will simply spread false information like this.

Google search I just made.
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"AI overviews are experimental.



Pronation is a rotational movement of the forearm that occurs when the palm of the hand rotates downward. It's required for a tennis serve, and can be difficult to learn at first. Here are some tips for improving pronation:

• Shadow swings
  Face down at the court, hold the racket near the top of the grip, and point your butt cap down. Start with five swings, then throw the ball while still facing forward. When you can do this comfortably, try the same action with your racket, and then with your normal grip."

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[Finster]

This serve video completely misses the significant part played by internal shoulder rotation (ISR) during the serve, as do most other serve instructional videos. Why is that?

Is this because the most significant joint motion - Internal Shoulder Rotation - is widely misidentified as forearm pronation when discussing the tennis serve? (In many countries of the world, Internal Shoulder Rotation is called Medial Shoulder Rotation.)

This issue was settled by tennis biomechanics research in 1995. A follow up publication was written in 2000.

(PDF) Long-axis rotation: The missing link in proximal-to-distal segmental sequencing

PDF | Most assessments of segmental sequencing in throwing, striking or kicking have indicated a proximal-to-distal sequencing of end-point linear... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

In the early 2000s, this research was endorsed by the ITF with reference books on the biomechanics of the serve and other strokes. See the Biomechanics of Advanced Tennis, 2003, B. Elliott et al.

In my opinion and experience as a scrub player, there is no way to purposely do ISR or pronation on the serve. It has to happen naturally, and that occurs if your preparation is correct. No way to tell yourself to ISR or pronate, and if you try to purposely do that it will result in a stiff and jerky serve.

That said, what can you do prior to contact that will let your body to naturally ISR? I've been experimenting with this a lot without much success. What about how the racquet approaches the ball prior to contact? I think if the racquet is coming towards the ball at an angle slightly obliquely from the outside (I suppose that is supinated with ESR), then that will make ISR and pronation more natural. I dunno because my serve still sucks. But I'm still tinkering.

 

[TennisCJC]

In my opinion and experience as a scrub player, there is no way to purposely do ISR or pronation on the serve. It has to happen naturally, and that occurs if your preparation is correct. No way to tell yourself to ISR or pronate, and if you try to purposely do that it will result in a stiff and jerky serve.

That said, what can you do prior to contact that will let your body to naturally ISR? I've been experimenting with this a lot without much success. What about how the racquet approaches the ball prior to contact? I think if the racquet is coming towards the ball at an angle slightly obliquely from the outside (I suppose that is supinated with ESR), then that will make ISR and pronation more natural. I dunno because my serve still sucks. But I'm still tinkering.

I think you can certainly focus mentally on ISR and/or pronation when practicing. And, there are drills you can do to stress ISR and pronation. But, when you put it all together, you don't want to think about much of anything when serving other than type of spin and location. Basically, practice drills can have you focus on individual components but when you are serving in a match or even in practice after working on drills, you want to focus on a good smooth stroke and not break it down into individual checkpoints. That's my view and I am sticking to it.