These people don't know the rules?

[heycal]

I'm sure this has been discussed in one way or another in 12 different threads by now, but here's my take on the hindrance thing:

I hear Serena yell before Stosur hits the ball and I instantly think "Oops, you can't do that. Point to Stosur".

But apparently the only who agreed with me at the time was the umpire. Not Serena, not McEnroe, Carillo, etc, (and Stosur said later she didn't know the rule either). And so this big controversy ensues.

So my question is this: How the hell does casual tennis fan and recreational hack heycal of Talk Tennis seem to know it's a point penalty, and all these people who've devoted their lives to playing, studying, and analyzing tennis and breathing it 24/7, have no frickin' clue and think Serena is entitled to a let after making a mistake like that?

Very strange to me.

 

[krizzle]

I don't know why the average TT'er would know. It could be common sense—if you do something on purpose to distract your opponent, you shouldn't be able to call a let (it would be abused if you were losing in a point and made a commotion).
The WTA and ITF (Majors) rules are different in this aspect, leading to potential confusion.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Heycal,

That is *exactly* what I thought and how I saw it. We can't have people cheering their own shots in the middle of the point. Everyone knows this. Or should know this.

But seriously. I have played tennis for all of five years. McEnroe has played for 45 years. How on earth can he not know this clear rule? "Play a let?" Why would you play a let?

Sheez. I think it would be a very, very good idea for all tennis commentators to be forced by their networks to take the national certification test one must pass annually to remain an umpire. I think it's about 100 questions, open book.

Look. If you are in the booth, you are there because of your knowledge of the sport. If you can't be bothered to know the friggin' rules on something so basic and important . . . It's like a surgeon who doesn't know where the appendix is. Good grief.

 

[heycal]

Heycal,

That is *exactly* what I thought and how I saw it. We can't have people cheering their own shots in the middle of the point. Everyone knows this. Or should know this.

But seriously. I have played tennis for all of five years. McEnroe has played for 45 years. How on earth can he not know this clear rule? "Play a let?" Why would you play a let?

Sheez. I think it would be a very, very good idea for all tennis commentators to be forced by their networks to take the national certification test one must pass annually to remain an umpire. I think it's about 100 questions, open book.

Look. If you are in the booth, you are there because of your knowledge of the sport. If you can't be bothered to know the friggin' rules on something so basic and important . . . It's like a surgeon who doesn't know where the appendix is. Good grief.

It was totally nuts. And it wasn't just McEnroe, which was bad enough, but both players too. Stosur could have theoretically felt guilty about receiving the point 'unfairly' and thus been pysched out a bit, when she was absolutely entitled to it.

Maybe they should spent 1% of all that training and practice time to learn the basic rules of the game that even most fans know. It can only help them.

 

[woodrow1029]

I'm sure this has been discussed in one way or another in 12 different threads by now, but here's my take on the hindrance thing:

I hear Serena yell before Stosur hits the ball and I instantly think "Oops, you can't do that. Point to Stosur".

But apparently the only who agreed with me at the time was the umpire. Not Serena, not McEnroe, Carillo, etc, (and Stosur said later she didn't know the rule either). And so this big controversy ensues.

So my question is this: How the hell does casual tennis fan and recreational hack heycal of Talk Tennis seem to know it's a point penalty, and all these people who've devoted their lives to playing, studying, and analyzing tennis and breathing it 24/7, have no frickin' clue and think Serena is entitled to a let after making a mistake like that?

Very strange to me.

This is one thing that drives me crazy about the commentators. I get frustrated that they consistently use incorrect terminology in several cases, and they consistently give incorrect information about the rules and/or officials in general. When I say something about it, people brush what I say off and say, "oh they're not that bad." or something like that, until something happens such as what happened yesterday.

Then, because a lot of observers who have been listening to the rubbish that the broadcasters have been feeding for years believe what they say and then take it out on the umpires on this forum.

Heycal makes a good point that there is absolutely no reason in the world why Serena should not have known why she lost the point.

 

[woodrow1029]

I don't know why the average TT'er would know. It could be common sense—if you do something on purpose to distract your opponent, you shouldn't be able to call a let (it would be abused if you were losing in a point and made a commotion).
The WTA and ITF (Majors) rules are different in this aspect, leading to potential confusion.

The hindrance rule is a "rule of tennis." While the ATP/WTA/ITF have some different rules/procedures as far as the dress code and time rules, the "Rules of Tennis" are consistent with all such as this one.

 

[ollinger]

At the pro level I wouldn't expect many people to know the full rule because it's something pros just don't generally do or see. The shrieking generally occurs as someone hits their own shot, not somebody else's. I watch plenty of tennis and have never seen this situation arise.

 

[dirtballer]

This is at least the third time that I've heard John McEnroe not know a rule which most serious tennis players would know. A couple years ago (I can't remember who was playing) he didn't know the the rules concerning balls which hit on your side of the court then spin back over the net. During a Marat Safin match, he didn't know the details of the center stripe foot fault rule. Of course, yesterday he didn't know the difference between an intentional and unintentional hindrance. I can't believe CBS didn't get a rules official into the booth to explain the rule to the viewers because I'm sure with McEnroe's non-stop blathering about it, the viewers were totally confused.

 

[heycal]

At the pro level I wouldn't expect many people to know the full rule because it's something pros just don't generally do or see. The shrieking generally occurs as someone hits their own shot, not somebody else's. I watch plenty of tennis and have never seen this situation arise.

Even if you've never seen it before, doesn't common sense suggest to you that Serena made a mistake and thus should have lost the point?

So even if all the players and commentators don't know the rules of their game for some reason, one would think they'd be able to intuitively grasp the situation and not question the call.

 

[ATXtennisaddict]

Anyone remember Kiefer/Grosjean a few years back when Kiefer flung his racquet in the direction of Grosjean as he was about to hit a volley? Who got the point?

 

[Bartelby]

She got a one point deduction, so hardly a life sentence let alone a DSK perp walk.

 

[heycal]

This is at least the third time that I've heard John McEnroe not know a rule which most serious tennis players would know. A couple years ago (I can't remember who was playing) he didn't know the the rules concerning balls which hit on your side of the court then spin back over the net. During a Marat Safin match, he didn't know the details of the center stripe foot fault rule. Of course, yesterday he didn't know the difference between an intentional and unintentional hindrance. I can't believe CBS didn't get a rules official into the booth to explain the rule to the viewers because I'm sure with McEnroe's non-stop blathering about it, the viewers were totally confused.

Why are we focusing on McEnroe? Everyone seemed to get this wrong at the time, and I would think it's more important for Serena and Stosur to be up on this than him. McEnroe's a color commentator.

 

[dominikk1985]

I'm sure this has been discussed in one way or another in 12 different threads by now, but here's my take on the hindrance thing:

I hear Serena yell before Stosur hits the ball and I instantly think "Oops, you can't do that. Point to Stosur".

But apparently the only who agreed with me at the time was the umpire. Not Serena, not McEnroe, Carillo, etc, (and Stosur said later she didn't know the rule either). And so this big controversy ensues.

So my question is this: How the hell does casual tennis fan and recreational hack heycal of Talk Tennis seem to know it's a point penalty, and all these people who've devoted their lives to playing, studying, and analyzing tennis and breathing it 24/7, have no frickin' clue and think Serena is entitled to a let after making a mistake like that?

Very strange to me.

Even the umpire doesn't know the rules. two years ago she ruled the same incident against serena and gave her a let.

 

[fuzz nation]

Look at it this way: Does McEnroe have more in common with Serena or with the chair umpire?

Loudmouth, egomaniac, bully... not much to figure out here I think. Why make the effort to be knowledgeable when you can do just fine by making it all about you?

I don't miss him in the game and I won't miss her one bit.

 

[heycal]

Anyone remember Kiefer/Grosjean a few years back when Kiefer flung his racquet in the direction of Grosjean as he was about to hit a volley? Who got the point?

Think Keifer did, and he shouldn't have.

 

[Bartelby]

'a color commentator'? - Out of the mouths of babes.

Why are we focusing on McEnroe? Everyone seemed to get this wrong at the time, and I would think it's more important for Serena and Stosur to be up on this than him. McEnroe's a color commentator.

 

[heycal]

Even the umpire doesn't know the rules. two years ago she ruled the same incident against serena and gave her a let.

Got some evidence of this claim?

 

[Kevin T]

Even if you've never seen it before, doesn't common sense to you that Serena made a mistake and thus should have lost the point?

So even if all the players and commentators don't know the rules of their game for some reason, one would think they'd be able to intuitively grasp the situation and not question the call.

I believe Carillo said a let should be played? She did mention a few moments later that Pam Shriver texted her and said the call was correct and had actually been made in another match earlier in the tournament. Regardless, Serena's US Open Tirade Part Deux was one for the ages. To quote Brian Fantana, "she's got mental problems, man".

 

[dominikk1985]

Got some evidence of this claim?

the commentator on eurosport said it (although he said that this time the ump was correct with discounting the point).

 

[heycal]

I believe Carillo said a let should be played? She did mention a few moments later that Pam Shriver texted her and said the call was correct and had actually been made in another match earlier in the tournament.

Yes, I believe Carillo may have also been ignorant of the rules.

 

[athiker]

I thought the same thing and the only explanation I can come up with is the pros have had all their calls and rulings made for them for so long they have forgotten and just don't bother reading USTA "Friend at Court" anymore!

I read the rules b/c I know if I get in a situation I need to be able to explain myself...they don't I guess. Though if my job depended on it I'd darn well know the rules for almost all situations and call for a referee if the on court ump misinterpreted.

Even so, you would think the sheer volume of matches they have played in and watched they would almost have to know all the rules...just from personal experience.

Its prett baffling.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Why are we focusing on McEnroe? Everyone seemed to get this wrong at the time, and I would think it's more important for Serena and Stosur to be up on this than him. McEnroe's a color commentator.

Stosur and Serena did not have the benefit of slow motion instant reply.

I believe Stosur perhaps did not know she touched the ball. Or did not know the timing of when Serena screamed. I would not expect her to clearly understand what was going on.

Serena perhaps did know the rule, but was hoping by feigning ignorance she could confuse the umpire into changing her ruling.

The players, IMHO, are entitled to rely on the umpire to know the rules, so I can't harsh on Stosur.

I agree completely with Woodrow, so +1 there.

Maybe what the networks need are rules interns. Someone whose job it is to sit right next to McEnroe and Carillo and tug their shirt sleeves when they say something remarkably stupid and wrong.

 

[athiker]

I initially thought it was pretty funny McEnroe basically stated Stosur should have stepped in and offered a let. I thought never in a million years would Mac do that. But then I believe I do recall him giving a point to an opponent in a match once. It was after some fracas...maybe a serve or something and then he conceded the next point...also was a bad call. Anyone remember? Was this him or his opponent?

Still, I don't see many pros calling a ball out and giving their opponent the point when the linesman fails to call it...pretty much the same thing...actually that situation is truly correcting a wrong whereas in this case they simply went by the rules.

EDIT: Found it...he had a chance to correct a bad call...crucial situation in 2nd set tiebreaker (the point before set point) and didn't. Then later in the first game of the 3rd set, down 15 - love, Borg on serve, Mac gave Borg a point after hitting Borg's 1st serve into the net. The 1st serve was called out so Mac launched the 2nd serve into the stands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVwPAOpFweY

 

[pmerk34]

Even if you've never seen it before, doesn't common sense to you that Serena made a mistake and thus should have lost the point?

So even if all the players and commentators don't know the rules of their game for some reason, one would think they'd be able to intuitively grasp the situation and not question the call.

Actually no, common sense didn't tell me she should have lost a point that she clearly won anyway. If anything I thought she would get a warning because Stosur had no play on the ball other than barely getting her frame on it. Then they stated the hindrance rule but we know she didn't scream to try and make Stosur miss she screamed because she thought it was a winner. Then you had Mac saying it should be a let and Carillo didn't offer an opinion right away. Only during the next game was Fernandez able to relay that the tournament ref said the chairs ruling was correct. We also have people here stating Serena had to play a let for doing the same thing at some other match.

 

[cknobman]

I think this had less to do with the fact that Carillo and McEnroe did not know the rule and more that they are American commentators on an American network in the American grand slam final witnessing and American get her @ss kicked trying to somehow "defend" the American's embarrassing display of poor sportsmanship by keeping the American audience watching from turning the channel.

 

[Bartelby]

no, you really should shut your mouth till the point is over no matter what the 'color commentator' thinks

 

[cknobman]

Actually no, common sense didn't tell me she should have lost a point that she clearly won anyway. If anything I thought she would get a warning because Stosur had no play on the ball other than barely getting her frame on it. Then they stated the hindrance rule but we know she didn't scream to try and make Stosur miss she screamed because she thought it was a winner. Then you had Mac saying it should be a let and Carillo didn't offer an opinion right away. Only during the next game was Fernandez able to relay that the tournament ref said the chairs ruling was correct. We also have people here stating Serena had to play a let for doing the same thing at some other match.

ACTUALLY you nor anyone else KNOWS anything about Serena's intentions.

What we do KNOW is:

• Replay's clearly show visibly and audibly that Serena started screaming after she had hit the ball and it crossed the net, before and during Stosur hit on the ball.
• The rule clearly states the violation is a hindrance and an automatic point penalty, there is no mention of taking players "intentions" into account.
• It was stated by Fernandez and verified that point penalties at this years US Open had already been handed out in previous matches for the exact same thing.

 

[GS]

Remember back in 1990 at the Australian Open when McEnroe got thrown out of the tournament? He said he didn't know that the 4-step process to get defaulted had been changed to a 3-step process---first a warning, then a point penalty, then a default.
And this guy wanted to be the first Commissioner of tennis?
Jeez....

 

[Cindysphinx]

ACTUALLY you nor anyone else KNOWS anything about Serena's intentions.

What we do KNOW is:

• Replay's clearly show visibly and audibly that Serena started screaming after she had hit the ball and it crossed the net, before and during Stosur hit on the ball.
• The rule clearly states the violation is a hindrance and an automatic point penalty, there is no mention of taking players "intentions" into account.
• It was stated by Fernandez and verified that point penalties at this years US Open had already been handed out in previous matches for the exact same thing.

I would add that so long as you intend to do that act that creates the hindrance, it's "intentional." If you didn't mean to do the act, then it's not intentional.

Serena meant to scream "Come on." Point to Stosur.

 

[sureshs]

At the pro level I wouldn't expect many people to know the full rule because it's something pros just don't generally do or see. The shrieking generally occurs as someone hits their own shot, not somebody else's. I watch plenty of tennis and have never seen this situation arise.

Exactly. Serena, Stosur, and JMac are the ignorant ones compared to the wise people here.

Pros play high-level tennis.

Tennis hacks with an anal interest in the rules and umpires who live and breathe the rules post here. That is why you don't see them playing on TV and no body would pay money to see them.

Whenever I read some of the court call situations in Tennis magazine, I learn something (and forget about it soon). Because I am out there playing and enjoying my tennis, not arguing.

 

[LDVTennis]

Even the umpire doesn't know the rules. two years ago she ruled the same incident against serena and gave her a let.

That is not correct. The penalty is different in WTA events, hence the let. In ITF events (the majors), the penalty is the loss of a point. If you look at the clip of the incident, you will see that the umpire tried to explain the difference to Serena. It is not clear what prompted the explanation. But, the umpire was on top of her game.

 

[pmerk34]

ACTUALLY you nor anyone else KNOWS anything about Serena's intentions.

What we do KNOW is:

• Replay's clearly show visibly and audibly that Serena started screaming after she had hit the ball and it crossed the net, before and during Stosur hit on the ball.
• The rule clearly states the violation is a hindrance and an automatic point penalty, there is no mention of taking players "intentions" into account.
• It was stated by Fernandez and verified that point penalties at this years US Open had already been handed out in previous matches for the exact same thing.

Why are you posting this?

 

[rickwestland]

This thread made a very good point. It is odd Serena would get penalized on those trivial things in grand slam finals.

 

[woodrow1029]

what?
10 char

 

[cknobman]

Why are you posting this?

Why did you post this? My post was in response to your nonsensical comment.

Actually no, common sense didn't tell me she should have lost a point that she clearly won anyway. If anything I thought she would get a warning because Stosur had no play on the ball other than barely getting her frame on it. Then they stated the hindrance rule but we know she didn't scream to try and make Stosur miss she screamed because she thought it was a winner. Then you had Mac saying it should be a let and Carillo didn't offer an opinion right away. Only during the next game was Fernandez able to relay that the tournament ref said the chairs ruling was correct. We also have people here stating Serena had to play a let for doing the same thing at some other match.

 

[Bartelby]

It's really the same as not touching the ball until it bounces even if it is clearly out, you don't shout until it is already clearly out or called out.

 

[pmerk34]

Why did you post this? My post was in response to your nonsensical comment.

Your post made no sense. Delete it

 

[pmerk34]

I would add that so long as you intend to do that act that creates the hindrance, it's "intentional." If you didn't mean to do the act, then it's not intentional.

Serena meant to scream "Come on." Point to Stosur.

According to ITF rules, the chair umpire has the latitude not to make the call if he or she thinks the hindrance was unintentional.

So the WTA and ITF have different rules for differing events? Bizarre

 

[woodrow1029]

According to ITF rules, the chair umpire has the latitude not to make the call if he or she thinks the hindrance was unintentional.

So the WTA and ITF have different rules for differing events? Bizarre

I think a lot of people are misunderstanding the definition of "intentional hindrance." It does not mean that you intentionally meant to distract someone. It means an intentional act (in this case screaming "COME ON.") that hindered or had the chance to hinder the opponent.

If Serena had gotten stung by a bee during the point and screamed something because of that, then a let would have been played.

 

[pmerk34]

I think a lot of people are misunderstanding the definition of "intentional hindrance." It does not mean that you intentionally meant to distract someone. It means an intentional act (in this case screaming "COME ON.") that hindered or had the chance to hinder the opponent.

If Serena had gotten stung by a bee during the point and screamed something because of that, then a let would have been played.

Ok, gotcha thanks!

 

[rickwestland]

See, Serena surely had no desire to intentionally lose any point, so by this logic, there was no way the "hindrance" was intentional.

 

[woodrow1029]

See, Serena surely had no desire to intentionally lose any point, so by this logic, there was no way the "hindrance" was intentional.

You didn't read my last post. Her screaming was an intentional act that had the chance to hinder her opponent. She did not intentionally mean to hinder Stosur, but this is considered an intentional or deliberate hindrance.

 

[baseliner]

The logical extension of the intentional hindrance rule is for a player to request the point after Sharapova shrieks when she hits the ball ala Martina Navritilova several years ago against a shrieker. It would be a tremendous improvement in the women's game to cut out the needless shrieking.

 

[Bud]

This thread made a very good point. It is odd Serena would get penalized on those trivial things in grand slam finals.

The point of the thread .. it's appropriate Serena did received a penalty for a hindrance, regardless of the commentator's ignorance in stating it was incorrect

Nice try

 

[Bartelby]

intentional here probably means simply not involuntary

 

[Bartelby]

that's true, but for some reason shrieking is now seen as involuntary

The logical extension of the intentional hindrance rule is for a player to request the point after Sharapova shrieks when she hits the ball ala Martina Navritilova several years ago against a shrieker. It would be a tremendous improvement in the women's game to cut out the needless shrieking.

 

[SoCal10s]

good thing you're not playing golf.. golf has so many wacky rules you'll go crazy ,but at least the golf TV commentators knows the rules... players are all prima-donnas ,old ones like JMac or present ones like Serena ,they don't spend time knowing all the rules and equipment stuff..

 

[pmerk34]

that's true, but for some reason shrieking is now seen as involuntary

That's too bad. One day they should stop it.

 

[Magnetite]

Honestly, in that scenario, the best thing to do was play a let.

I know it's not in the 'rule book', and it is somewhat subjective as to whether Serena was trying to distract her opponent, but there's no way in hell Stosur was doing anything other than framing it.

Stosur obviously deserved a let, but being awarded the point and thus the game, seemed a bit much.

That being said, Serena's behaviour was terrible. It made her look like a immature brat. She should have taken the high road.

 

[woodrow1029]

Honestly, in that scenario, the best thing to do was play a let.

I know it's not in the 'rule book', and it is somewhat subjective as to whether Serena was trying to distract her opponent, but there's no way in hell Stosur was doing anything other than framing it.

Stosur obviously deserved a let, but being awarded the point and thus the game, seemed a bit much.

That being said, Serena's behaviour was terrible. It made her look like a immature brat. She should have taken the high road.

Well if you believe that, then I guess you don't know the rules either.