To Tennismastery with love

[JohnYandell]

Andy,

I wrote a long post that touched on this but a direct question for you. What is the state of the 3D data from Indian Wells/LA--and is any plan or interest in making it available so that everyone could learn from it?

John

 

[Bungalo Bill]

I tried this once. As soon as I saw the lobbing coming I just sprinted back.
I turned around when I got back and it bonked me in the head. Actually I only
do this when it is a heavy topspin lob I can't reach and the trajectory is directly
over my head and I know I'll have to make an all out sprint to have any
hope of getting to it and trying a desperation lob or b/w the legs shot.

It is more beneficial to teach people how to anticipate a lob so they can move fluidly and be able to judge the ball better to make a decision.

We saw players get hit on the head, nearly lose their balance or in some respects get a bit "dizzy", others were nowhere near the bounce of the ball and went back in line to wait for another embarassing moment.

Of all the things that happened that day, this real was the only thing we questioned, the rest of the lessons were good and practical.

 

[maverick1]

I am a 3.5-4.0 player, but this is one of the things I can do without much difficulty for underspin lobs. When a lob goes over my head, I have an approximate idea of where it is going to bounce. I turn around and run to a spot well behind the ball. I only look for it as I am approaching the estimated contact point. I don't have much trouble finding the ball and even hitting it with my weight moving forward.

I have experience in chasing balls over my head in Cricket, which was my primary activity(not just primary sport) growing up. Catching a ball in the air is very difficult to do once you take your eyes off the ball. So you are trained to keep the eye on the ball the whole time.

Despite the training to keep an eye on the ball, my tennis experience is that it is hardly worth it because it is so trivial to re-track an underspin lob. The underspin lob moves much slower than a baseball or cricket ball hit to the outfield and becomes even slower after the bounce. I feel you are better off trying to get to a good position ahead of time and then find the ball.

That is just my experience.

 

[maverick1]

I tried this once. As soon as I saw the lobbing coming I just sprinted back.
I turned around when I got back and it bonked me in the head.

If it hit you in the head, you were doing quite well in terms of having time to hit the ball comfortably. Just run a bit more to the side to make it a comfortable forehand, and you will be in good shape.

 

[Tennis_Monk]

I am a 3.5-4.0 player, but this is one of the things I can do without much difficulty for underspin lobs. When a lob goes over my head, I have an approximate idea of where it is going to bounce. I turn around and run to a spot well behind the ball. I only look for it as I am approaching the estimated contact point. I don't have much trouble finding the ball and even hitting it with my weight moving forward.

I have experience in chasing balls over my head in Cricket, which was my primary activity(not just primary sport) growing up. Catching a ball in the air is very difficult to do once you take your eyes off the ball. So you are trained to keep the eye on the ball the whole time.

Despite the training to keep an eye on the ball, my tennis experience is that it is hardly worth it because it is so trivial to re-track an underspin lob. The underspin lob moves much slower than a baseball or cricket ball hit to the outfield and becomes even slower after the bounce. I feel you are better off trying to get to a good position ahead of time and then find the ball.

That is just my experience.

I do this a lot too. Depending on the depth of lob, i sometimes overrun and wait for it with out seeing it while in Air. As you indicated , there is an approximation of where it would land. I can comfortably do this.

Unless there is wind and etc, most times one can approximate where the ball is going to land with reasonable certainity. (if someone cant after playing so much tennis, then i am not so sure they are cut out for Tennis). TopSpin can also change things but having played with that opponent should give a reasonable idea of that variable.


Having an eye on the ball is always preferably and fundamental. But there are times when one has to Guesstimate.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

Having an eye on the ball is always preferably and fundamental. But there are times when one has to Guesstimate.

So, for those few times and the limited time people are at the college, why implement this drill? Wouldn't it be more beneficial to perform another drill that can get to the root of overhead issues with the students? Something they can go home with? Aren't there other drills that get to core fundamentals in hitting an overhead given the time constraints and amount of money people paid?

 

[Tennismastery]

What was his name?

It was a 'her' and her first name is Janou, last name was Gundestouw...of course, I believe I'm spelling her last name wrong! She is part of the ITF Dutch National Training program and was very knowlegable. She came to learn about the two-handed forehand (as their top player Ramon Sluiter uses) and something we are somewhat authorities on.

 

[AndyFitzell]

Don`t agree with that. Example. Fundamentals teach us that one wants to have a large hitting zone. That`s one of the reasons why I still teach beginning players to hit with a square stance on most of their shots: because they need that large hitting zone because their timing isn`t perfect. But if you have perfect timing, why would you want to have a large hitting zone, when there is no need for one?

Interesting comment. I don't think pros have perfect timing. They are great athletes and have better timing than most, but surely not perfect. By watching high-speed video it is clear that the racket continues to goes towards the target well after the ball is struck. That is why the pros are as consistent as they usually are. To ask you a question, what is the advantage of NOT having a large hitting zone as you put it?

-Andy

 

[AndyFitzell]

Andy,

I wrote a long post that touched on this but a direct question for you. What is the state of the 3D data from Indian Wells/LA--and is any plan or interest in making it available so that everyone could learn from it?

John

John,

We have finished some stuff on Federer, Clijsters, Dementieva, and a few others. We have plans to finish as much digitizing as we can this fall and be ready to present the findings and video in as many ways possible. I will try to keep you posted.

-Andy

 

[AndyFitzell]

So, for those few times and the limited time people are at the college, why implement this drill? Wouldn't it be more beneficial to perform another drill that can get to the root of overhead issues with the students? Something they can go home with? Aren't there other drills that get to core fundamentals in hitting an overhead given the time constraints and amount of money people paid?

Bill,

We practice this drill for maybe 10 min. during our lob portion of the program. The program consists of over 15 hours of instruction in 3 days where we cover each stroke in depth using video analysis etc.

-Andy

 

[nickybol]

Interesting comment. I don't think pros have perfect timing. They are great athletes and have better timing than most, but surely not perfect. By watching high-speed video it is clear that the racket continues to goes towards the target well after the ball is struck. That is why the pros are as consistent as they usually are. To ask you a question, what is the advantage of NOT having a large hitting zone as you put it?

-Andy

There is no advantage of not having a large hitting zone, but sometimes it`s one thing or another. We all know the advantages an open stance can have sometimes, and we all know one of the consequences of an open stance: a smaller hitting zone. Another example: if you hit with much topspin, you have a steeper swing path and a smaller hitting zone. You sacrifice your hitting zone for topspin.

 

[Tennis_Monk]

So, for those few times and the limited time people are at the college, why implement this drill? Wouldn't it be more beneficial to perform another drill that can get to the root of overhead issues with the students? Something they can go home with? Aren't there other drills that get to core fundamentals in hitting an overhead given the time constraints and amount of money people paid?

Agreed. It may not be time well spent in the grand scheme of things unless one is planning on becoming a Pro(in which case he/she better learn to keep eyes on the ball at all times rather than Guesstimate!).

 

[JohnYandell]

Andy and All,

This isn't news because you and I and Vic have discussed it before, but to me, revealing what 3D data can actually tell us--in all it's overwhelming quantitative glory--is the next step in understanding the strokes.

I don't mean the teaching systems that are based on it, or derived from it, or justified by it. I mean the data about racket head speed, speed and position of the body parts--all that stuff at all the important moments in the swings.

It's one thing to make a claim about teaching. It's another to have a data base that can be examined. This, as I think we also discussed, is one of the things our foundation is developing as well.

There are other people out there like Bruce Elliot and Brian Gordon. Obviously this is the goal of creating the stroke archives on Tennisplayer as well--even if purely qualitative they are phenomenally deep.

What I think is that every point of view, system, etc that claims to be based on data can ususally be interpreted in several ways. Others that aren't may lack reality on many points. These are the things we should be striving to examine together even if the end result is an agreement to disagree.

But I don't think it's necessarily in the best interest of the game for all that information to remain hidden or strictly proprietary. Again, that can be a matter of opinion and/or disagreement.

John Yandell

 

[Bungalo Bill]

Agreed. It may not be time well spent in the grand scheme of things unless one is planning on becoming a Pro(in which case he/she better learn to keep eyes on the ball at all times rather than Guesstimate!).

With all of this said, you do realize that I agree with an awful lot of stuff from Vic and can see his influence and fundamentals in nearly every modern coaches instruction. Vic will always be a great guy and someone to listen too.