Too much ESR -> Balls to the other side fence

[Nicholas Kakatsis]

I recently started training with a former ATP player, now in his mid 50.
Have a problem i want to fix. Hit the ball with too much power but mostly flat and very inconsistently.
He had a look and said :” well you have only one major problem. Too much ESR, no or limited ISR and as such racquet face is mostly vertical or open. When you get it vertical then all is great. Otherwise a disaster. To compensate you go “under the ball” again though with open racquet face and end up golfing the ball to the next court.”

He showed me my arm in slow mo. The ESR is so much that the “inside of my elbow” (where we usually get our blood drawn for tests) is pointed to the right side! Then ltd ISR and so on...

so he made me do ISR without using the forearm and only the shoulder. The thing he asked my to have in mind is :” Forget the ESR. It will happen automatically since you have a relaxed arm, hand etc. DO NOT ESR! Start the swing as if you want once you start to hit the ball by rotating the elbow so the outer side “points the sky”. It is a queue to force your mind to use the shoulder a lot sooner in the stroke.”

it helped me a lot. And not only with the stroke but also with the balance of my body. Significantly improved.

hope it helps others too

 

[Fxanimator1]

I recently started training with a former ATP player, now in his mid 50.
Have a problem i want to fix. Hit the ball with too much power but mostly flat and very inconsistently.
He had a look and said :” well you have only one major problem. Too much ESR, no or limited ISR and as such racquet face is mostly vertical or open. When you get it vertical then all is great. Otherwise a disaster. To compensate you go “under the ball” again though with open racquet face and end up golfing the ball to the next court.”

He showed me my arm in slow mo. The ESR is so much that the “inside of my elbow” (where we usually get our blood drawn for tests) is pointed to the right side! Then ltd ISR and so on...

so he made me do ISR without using the forearm and only the shoulder. The thing he asked my to have in mind is :” Forget the ESR. It will happen automatically since you have a relaxed arm, hand etc. DO NOT ESR! Start the swing as if you want once you start to hit the ball by rotating the elbow so the outer side “points the sky”. It is a queue to force your mind to use the shoulder a lot sooner in the stroke.”

it helped me a lot. And not only with the stroke but also with the balance of my body. Significantly improved.

hope it helps others too

Not sure that I am understanding what you’ve written here (bolded text). It sounds interesting though.
Could you reword it so that someone that doesn’t know what you’re referring to can understand it?

 

[Dragy]

Sounds perfectly legit for your case. If you already got massive ESR you didn't need to focus on it. Meanwhile, holding ESR through contact was an issue, so you needed to start internally rotating your arm before contact.

 

[ZanderGoga]

If you're worried about which way your S is R'ing during a stroke, you're going to screw it up. Proper movement of the limbs and joints is an automatic result of a proper stroke. It's not an active way to make proper strokes happen.

 

[Slowtwitcher]

I got it. The end product is probably a chicken-wing FH with zero ISR.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Are you talking about a forehand or serve? Straight elbow or bent elbow forehand?

You should work with high speed videos to see and discuss what you are doing. I don't think that any two readers can get a clear picture of what you are doing. Narrating a video, frame-by-frame, keeps things on track.

Also, the words ISR & ESR can be used in one of two ways:
1) to indicate position (or angle) or
2) to indicate the direction of motion.

Usage 1 example - 'the shoulder joint is in a position of +20 degrees ESR' (this would also automatically give the angle of ISR) See videos on the measurement of ESR & ISR angles from a defined 0 degrees position.

Usage 2 example - 'the shoulder joint is moving with ESR' (toward the position of maximum ESR and regardless of position)

 

[sureshs]

An ATP player has actually heard of ESR and ISR?

 

[Chas Tennis]

An ATP player has actually heard of ESR and ISR?

The usage of defined joint terms and by who is a very interesting question.

I have found two instructional videos using the defined joint motions.

 

[Nicholas Kakatsis]

Are you talking about a forehand or serve? Straight elbow or bent elbow forehand?

You should work with high speed videos to see and discuss what you are doing. I don't think that any two readers can get a clear picture of what you are doing. Narrating a video, frame-by-frame, keeps things on track.

Also, the words ISR & ESR can be used in one of two ways:
1) to indicate position (or angle) or
2) to indicate the direction of motion.

Usage 1 example - 'the shoulder joint is in a position of +20 degrees ESR' (this would also automatically give the angle of ISR) See videos on the measurement of ESR & ISR angles from a defined 0 degrees position.

Usage 2 example - 'the shoulder joint is moving with ESR' (toward the position of maximum ESR and regardless of position)

Straight arm forehand.

Maybe I am misusing the terms form a scientific point of view.

In a nutshell I always thought it is best to try to generate ESR as the ISR will come as a by-product of the SSC.
I ended up afer many years with tremendous elasticity in the shoulder and elbow joint such that the shoulder remains at ESR must more time than is required during the swing. Not only that, imagine the racquet is found parallel behind me rather than being perpendicular behind me at the initiation of the forward swing.

Now I have begun to try the conscious ISR at the initiation of the forward swing by having as a queue in my mind to turn the elbow upside down (NOT THE PALM!).

I don't know what a chicken wing FH is... sorry

But as it is written above...I was holding ESR through contact....

 

[Slowtwitcher]

Straight arm forehand.

My head hurts now.

 

[yossarian]

My head hurts now.

As opposed to the classic gay arm forehand

 

[Slowtwitcher]

As opposed to the classic gay arm forehand

Not that there's anything wrong with it!

 

[PilotPete]

Sounds like good advice.

 

[pencilcheck]

He is trying his hard to undo the rec tennis mistakes but at the same time keep in mind he is also suggesting a more harder approach that require better fitness. If you don't have those fitness then it will not be easy to hit like that esp at high speed and while running and stretching.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Straight arm forehand.

Maybe I am misusing the terms form a scientific point of view.

In a nutshell I always thought it is best to try to generate ESR as the ISR will come as a by-product of the SSC.
I ended up afer many years with tremendous elasticity in the shoulder and elbow joint such that the shoulder remains at ESR must more time than is required during the swing. Not only that, imagine the racquet is found parallel behind me rather than being perpendicular behind me at the initiation of the forward swing.

Now I have begun to try the conscious ISR at the initiation of the forward swing by having as a queue in my mind to turn the elbow upside down (NOT THE PALM!).

I don't know what a chicken wing FH is... sorry

But as it is written above...I was holding ESR through contact....

If the ball goes long, first get a high speed video of your racket face, its angle, just before impact.

This thread has some of the best displays of racket face just before impact. See late in article.

TennisSpeed Research: A Roadmap to a Hall-of-Fame Forehand - Part 9: An Anatomical Comparison of the Federer and Djokovic Forehands

tennisspeedresearch.blogspot.com

Federer & Nadal have straight elbow forehands and Djokovic has a bent elbow forehand.

Notice that the racket face is 'closed' (top edge more forward than lower edge). Maybe 5-10 degrees?

 

[socallefty]

An ex-ATP player who knows about ESR/ISR and uses it when coaching strokes - sounds like a fairy tale to me. I don’t think I’ve ever met a player outside of TTW who uses these terms particularly for ground strokes - a handful of players might know of ISR on serves if they spend a lot of time watching online coaching.

Most college players I’ve met barely know what grip they use or what string is on their racquet and will have no clue about whether they hit an ATP or WTA style forehand - they would have absolutely no idea what ISR or ESR means.

 

[GuyClinch]

An ex-ATP player who knows about ESR/ISR and uses it when coaching strokes - sounds like a fairy tale to me. I don’t think I’ve ever met a player outside of TTW who uses these terms particularly for ground strokes - a handful of players might know of ISR on serves if they spend a lot of time watching online coaching.

Most college players I’ve met barely know what grip they use or what string is on their racquet and will have no clue about whether they hit an ATP or WTA style forehand - they would have absolutely no idea what ISR or ESR means.

Fairy Tale or nightmare? If explaining anatomical concepts helped tennis players we would all be 5.0 here..

 

[Dragy]

Fairy Tale or nightmare? If explaining anatomical concepts helped tennis players we would all be 5.0 here..

Explaining on court and drilling properly helps. Chatting on the internet with no practice and dedicated work on changes... not so much.

 

[Nicholas Kakatsis]

If the ball goes long, first get a high speed video of your racket face, its angle, just before impact.

This thread has some of the best displays of racket face just before impact. See late in article.

TennisSpeed Research: A Roadmap to a Hall-of-Fame Forehand - Part 9: An Anatomical Comparison of the Federer and Djokovic Forehands

tennisspeedresearch.blogspot.com

Federer & Nadal have straight elbow forehands and Djokovic has a bent elbow forehand.

Notice that the racket face is 'closed' (top edge more forward than lower edge). Maybe 5-10 degrees?

He filmed me and imagine that at guis frame as Fed https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_BQyZNLTB1s/UR5l0t0TmGI/AAAAAAAAAcY/TOVyFdI46F4/s1600/B98+-+F006.jpg the racquet lags behind significantly more. Swinging towards the ball my hand remains in ESR so the racquet string bed is below the ball but with an open face.

 

[Chas Tennis]

An ex-ATP player who knows about ESR/ISR and uses it when coaching strokes - sounds like a fairy tale to me. I don’t think I’ve ever met a player outside of TTW who uses these terms particularly for ground strokes - a handful of players might know of ISR on serves if they spend a lot of time watching online coaching.

Most college players I’ve met barely know what grip they use or what string is on their racquet and will have no clue about whether they hit an ATP or WTA style forehand - they would have absolutely no idea what ISR or ESR means.

There is a disconnect somewhere. Colleges offer courses in biomechanics and other subjects that involve defined joint motions for medical purposes, Dr, nurse, physical therapist, also there are athletic applications. Once these terms are used there is no ambiguity in communication. ??

It seems that the use of the defined joint motion terms should not be rare.

 

[Chas Tennis]

........................................................................
He had a look and said :” well you have only one major problem. Too much ESR, no or limited ISR and as such racquet face is mostly vertical or open. When you get it vertical then all is great. Otherwise a disaster. To compensate you go “under the ball” again though with open racquet face and end up golfing the ball to the next court.”

He showed me my arm in slow mo. The ESR is so much that the “inside of my elbow” (where we usually get our blood drawn for tests) is pointed to the right side! Then ltd ISR and so on...

so he made me do ISR without using the forearm and only the shoulder. The thing he asked my to have in mind is :” Forget the ESR. It will happen automatically since you have a relaxed arm, hand etc. DO NOT ESR! Start the swing as if you want once you start to hit the ball by rotating the elbow so the outer side “points the sky”. It is a queue to force your mind to use the shoulder a lot sooner in the stroke.”
...........................................................................

He filmed me and imagine that at guis frame as Fed https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_BQyZNLTB1s/UR5l0t0TmGI/AAAAAAAAAcY/TOVyFdI46F4/s1600/B98+-+F006.jpg the racquet lags behind significantly more. Swinging towards the ball my hand remains in ESR so the racquet string bed is below the ball but with an open face.

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tennisspeed

Observe your racket face at impacts. ATP are all closed but yours are open or neutral, is that correct? Your racket face angle will elevate the ball trajectory. Suggest that you find and use the most commonly used ATP grip for a straight arm forehand and modify your stroke to get a closed racket head at impact.

I believe that Federer uses an Eastern Forehand Grip, but I do not trust my ability to identify grips from videos or pictures. Nadal also has a near straight elbow. I do not think that Nadal's grip is Eastern Forehand.

In biomechanics they use the term 'Projection Angle' for the angle of a ball's trajectory relative to the horizontal, a very important angle for whether the ball goes out or stays in.

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[Slowtwitcher]

[...] he is also suggesting a more harder approach [...]

That sounds pretty harder.