Top 1000 player teaches 3.5 what an effective forehand is....

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I believe you ... you are still around tournaments and I am not. Do I think strings and racquets today change my premise for rec tennis ... Nope.

This is the easiest way to explain my point. I saw a couple of guys make it to 4.5 tennis in a very few years. Two of them were ex-college baseball players. Serving, overheads, volleys, balance and agility came very quick for them. Groundstrokes ... not as fast. If they had to stay back ... were not likely to win in a 4.0 tournament, because many were much better from the baseline. Living at the net ... one was a regular 4.5 singles tournament winner ... and other always a contender.

I never saw anyone get there that quick as a baseliner. I'm sure it happens now all the time in juniors ... but that was my experience in adult tennis. That was my only point. I also had friends in 4.5 tournaments that were not natural volleyers or very fast, but moved from bottom 4.5 to upper by 4.5 by forcing net play in there game. No S&V ... but they used their quality groundstrokes to come in at the right time.

OK but you'll admit that using 2 ex-collegiate athletes is an outlier for the garden variety USTA league?

 

[ByeByePoly]

OK but you'll admit that using 2 ex-collegiate athletes is an outlier for the garden variety USTA league?

 

[Dolgopolov85]

I believe you ... you are still around tournaments and I am not. Do I think strings and racquets today change my premise for rec tennis ... Nope.

This is the easiest way to explain my point. I saw a couple of guys make it to 4.5 tennis in a very few years. Two of them were ex-college baseball players. Serving, overheads, volleys, balance and agility came very quick for them. Groundstrokes ... not as fast. If they had to stay back ... were not likely to win in a 4.0 tournament, because many were much better from the baseline. Living at the net ... one was a regular 4.5 singles tournament winner ... and other always a contender.

I never saw anyone get there that quick as a baseliner. I'm sure it happens now all the time in juniors ... but that was my experience in adult tennis. That was my only point. I also had friends in 4.5 tournaments that were not natural volleyers or very fast, but moved from bottom 4.5 to upper by 4.5 by forcing net play in there game. No S&V ... but they used their quality groundstrokes to come in at the right time.

I really couldn't agree more with this. My serve is weak and as a result I really struggle in tournaments because it breaks down into a Kournikova-esque procession of DFs. There have been sets where I lost in spite of breaking my opponent twice, because I couldn't win a single service game. I avoid tapping the ball in because I don't want it to become a crutch to lean on (and besides it would anyway get me in trouble against good players). It's not that I haven't tried to improve the serve and I may have finally got a clue from Salzenstein's videos (there was another excellent video by a lady on the slice serve, forget her name). But most of the instruction I received was lopsided towards groundstrokes and specifically the forehand. For whatever reason, coaches seem to struggle to teach the serve. Those who are tall seem to work it out on their own but shorties like me really need good guidance just to get the serve over the net and into the box consistently.

 

[Wander]

I really couldn't agree more with this. My serve is weak and as a result I really struggle in tournaments because it breaks down into a Kournikova-esque procession of DFs. There have been sets where I lost in spite of breaking my opponent twice, because I couldn't win a single service game twice. I avoid tapping the ball in because I don't want it to become a crutch to lean on (and besides it would anyway get me in trouble against good players). It's not that I haven't tried to improve the serve and I may have finally got a clue from Salzenstein's videos (there was another excellent video by a lady on the slice serve, forget her name). But most of the instruction I received was lopsided towards groundstrokes and specifically the forehand. For whatever reason, coaches seem to struggle to teach the serve. Those who are tall seem to work it out on their own but shorties like me really need good guidance just to get the serve over the net and into the box consistently.

^Funny you say that. I have been to my first two tennis lessons recently where I get coached once a week in a group of 4 students. The other three have been doing this for some years now I believe - the one I asked said 4 years. Two of them could regularly beat me in ground stroke rallies. However, all three had weak serves. My serve is not great, but it was by far the best of the four and the coach didn't have much to say except for general praise for my serve motion. I'm sure he serves better than I do, but he seemed at a loss to get the other students to even reach my level of serve.

My theory really is simply that the serve takes tons of repetitions and hours spent practicing to get right and those classes so far were 90% focused on groundstroke drills. I, on the other hand, have suffered from a lack of playing partners so almost 90% of my recent tennis practice has been specifically on the serve (which, by the way, used to be uttely crap just one year ago).

And for reference, my serve motion looks like this:

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

The problem with going to net is that if you can't volley, you'll just give away points.
1) Hit a deep groundstroke that generates a short ball
2) Approach shot that pull him out wide.
3) Volley into the net. Lose point.

At that point, you just lost to a 2.0 bunter.
So, yea, you can't just go into the net and expect magic.

The exception to this is if opponent panics and overhits ball into net, or lobs long.
Is that how those 4.5 hacks advanced so quickly?
I find volley is the single hardest stroke in tennis.

Most rec coaches have no idea how to teach the serve.
It is something you just need to figure out on your own, naturally.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

^Funny you say that. I have been to my first two tennis lessons recently where I get coached once a week in a group of 4 students. The other three have been doing this for some years now I believe - the one I asked said 4 years. Two of them could regularly beat me in ground stroke rallies. However, all three had weak serves. My serve is not great, but it was by far the best of the four and the coach didn't have much to say except for general praise for my serve motion. I'm sure he serves better than I do, but he seemed at a loss to get the other students to even reach my level of serve.

My theory really is simply that the serve takes tons of repetitions and hours spent practicing to get right and those classes so far were 90% focused on groundstroke drills. I, on the other hand, have suffered from a lack of playing partners so almost 90% of my recent tennis practice has been specifically on the serve (which, by the way, used to be uttely crap just one year ago).

And for reference, my serve motion looks like this:

Looks good! Maybe because the serve is so tough to master, coaches don't want to scare rec hacks away and teach them groundies which are easier. My serve IS better than on day 1 when I started with an abbreviated motion. But improvement has been very, very slow compared to the groundies. I mean, the improvement in serve over 3 years is roughly equal to the improvement in my forehand from day one to three months on.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I really couldn't agree more with this. My serve is weak and as a result I really struggle in tournaments because it breaks down into a Kournikova-esque procession of DFs. There have been sets where I lost in spite of breaking my opponent twice, because I couldn't win a single service game. I avoid tapping the ball in because I don't want it to become a crutch to lean on (and besides it would anyway get me in trouble against good players). It's not that I haven't tried to improve the serve and I may have finally got a clue from Salzenstein's videos (there was another excellent video by a lady on the slice serve, forget her name). But most of the instruction I received was lopsided towards groundstrokes and specifically the forehand. For whatever reason, coaches seem to struggle to teach the serve. Those who are tall seem to work it out on their own but shorties like me really need good guidance just to get the serve over the net and into the box consistently.

"I really couldn't agree more with this. "

Wow ... someone agreed with me on something. I think I just teared up a little.

I should just leave it there ... but let me describe most of these guys serves they learned early. Not pace ... or aces, but spin or kick they could s&v behind. Hardly ever double faulted.

My advice on serving is tap the 2nd in rather than double fault. In all my years of rec tournament singles, it was rare to see anyone hit clean winners on returns. Serve placement is king in rec singles. If you can add pace and spin to non-double faulting accurate placement ... even better. Kick is our short player friend. Also ... our flat serves to the t are tough on opoonents because they skip.

By seniors, you really don't see guys banging serves. One of the top 4.0s (maybe the best) hits a frying pan serve with short stroke/pop. Big guy ... ex-running back. He never double faults ... can skim it over the net to good targets (surprisingly). And occasionally ... he will pop that sucker with surprising pace. Turns out strong 220lb guys can do things weak 162lbers can't.

NEVER double fault. Practice serve with hopper.

 

[ByeByePoly]

The problem with going to net is that if you can't volley, you'll just give away points.
1) Hit a deep groundstroke that generates a short ball
2) Approach shot that pull him out wide.
3) Volley into the net. Lose point.

At that point, you just lost to a 2.0 bunter.
So, yea, you can't just go into the net and expect magic.

The exception to this is if opponent panics and overhits ball into net, or lobs long.
Is that how those 4.5 hacks advanced so quickly?
I find volley is the single hardest stroke in tennis.

Most rec coaches have no idea how to teach the serve.
It is something you just need to figure out on your own, naturally.

Learning to hit a block volley to open court is easier than learning a backhand.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Learning to hit a block volley to open court is easier than learning a backhand.

imo transitioning to net is what folks (me) have trouble with

i was like most, once i'm at net, i can volley ok

but getting there: approach/recognize, move, split, calm, transition volley, move, split, calm, etc,...

 

[Dolgopolov85]

"I really couldn't agree more with this. "

Wow ... someone agreed with me on something. I think I just teared up a little.

I should just leave it there ... but let me describe most of these guys serves they learned early. Not pace ... or aces, but spin or kick they could s&v behind. Hardly ever double faulted.

My advice on serving is tap the 2nd in rather than double fault. In all my years of rec tournament singles, it was rare to see anyone hit clean winners on returns. Serve placement is king in rec singles. If you can add pace and spin to non-double faulting accurate placement ... even better. Kick is our short player friend. Also ... our flat serves to the t are tough on opoonents because they skip.

By seniors, you really don't see guys banging serves. One of the top 4.0s (maybe the best) hits a frying pan serve with short stroke/pop. Big guy ... ex-running back. He never double faults ... can skim it over the net to good targets (surprisingly). And occasionally ... he will pop that sucker with surprising pace. Turns out strong 220lb guys can do things weak 162lbers can't.

NEVER double fault. Practice serve with hopper.

Thanks a lot for the suggestions. Yeah, guess I will have to learn a tapping serve for second serve because dropping points without giving the other guy an opportunity to win it off his own racquet is costly. In fact, I will probably practice just tapping it in every time without finding net and without pulling long every time. I won't give up working on a good serve but even the tapped in serve needs practice else it doesn't work when I decide to try it for the first time in tournaments facing defeat (duh! why would it!).

 

[iChen]

imo transitioning to net is what folks (me) have trouble with

i was like most, once i'm at net, i can volley ok

but getting there: approach/recognize, move, split, calm, transition volley, move, split, calm, etc,...

well said. I will probably take a lesson to learn an approach shot, so far....well it's like a weak FH or a slice to make the opponent come forward and hopefully bounce up an easy ball

 

[ByeByePoly]

imo transitioning to net is what folks (me) have trouble with

i was like most, once i'm at net, i can volley ok

but getting there: approach/recognize, move, split, calm, transition volley, move, split, calm, etc,...

For me ... all of it is hard... and players get better based on reps. Players tend to follow their comfort zone ... so that is what gets the reps.

Use me as the example (for others, you have heard this). I hit over 7500 2hbhs with the ball machine that first summer trying to learn the 2hbh. By the end of that year ... it was still only average.

Now imagine a player that "isn't comfortable" with transitioning to the net for a volley. How many players go out and drill 7500 approaches to the net? It would be hard to imagine that a player wouldn't improve their comfort level by the end of 7500 summer approach reps.

BTW ... I have reversed back into the "uncomfortable approach" stage in tennis. Not because I can't volley, and not because I forgot the right shot to come in on. It's all about legs, balance on overheads, lateral coverage at the net. I find my lateral movement at the baseline still pretty good/fast ... but obvious loss moving forward. This winter I plan on not taking the winter completely off ... even if it's just one doubles a week. Also ... this winter will be my first squats and lunges. I've never been much of a weights guy, but never legs. I always played so much tennis ... I viewed my legs as good to go. And that has been true ... until now.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Thanks a lot for the suggestions. Yeah, guess I will have to learn a tapping serve for second serve because dropping points without giving the other guy an opportunity to win it off his own racquet is costly. In fact, I will probably practice just tapping it in every time without finding net and without pulling long every time. I won't give up working on a good serve but even the tapped in serve needs practice else it doesn't work when I decide to try it for the first time in tournaments facing defeat (duh! why would it!).

Whoa ... not selling the tap frying pan serve. Let's say it like this ... use the best non-double faulting 2nd serve you have. For me, that eventually became the kicker with lots of net clearance (that was for TTPS). If you have a little spinner/slice use that. BUT ... if poke tapper is it ... use it.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Whoa ... not selling the tap frying pan serve. Let's say it like this ... use the best non-double faulting 2nd serve you have. For me, that eventually became the kicker with lots of net clearance (that was for TTPS). If you have a little spinner/slice use that. BUT ... if poke tapper is it ... use it.

Yeah, I get you. Didn't mean to say I will stop trying to serve properly but I am going to keep the tap practiced and ready so that I do have SOME second serve capable of getting into play every time. Go for it on the first and tap it in on the second is what I am thinking for now.

 

[ByeByePoly]

well said. I will probably take a lesson to learn an approach shot, so far....well it's like a weak FH or a slice to make the opponent come forward and hopefully bounce up an easy ball

Experienced help on tactics is great ... but at the end of the day it's just reps. I have never had a lesson ... unless you count the beatings on the singles court. Just run to the net. Even if it's the wrong type of approaches, that is part of the learning.

Great instructors like @nytennisaddict can help you with what you don't know, and help you avoid deadend paths. OMG ... wish he was there at the start of my tennis yelling "BBP ... turn your damn shoulders". But at the end of the day ... you learn your own muscle memory. It's all a lot of uncomfortable zone reps. It's also a great time ... those early learning years. That's what the 2hbh project was for me ... I got to go back and relive those moments of "did you see that shot... I am awesome!!!".

 

[Wander]

I play lots of people who tap all their serves and still play more or less even with me because my other strokes are no better than theirs, but I would personally still never recommend someone to go back to tapping if they can hit a proper serve with top spin. Double faulting understandably really sucks though if you are playing a match against someone. But I'd rather even hit an underhand sidespinner than tap it, but that takes practice to not be a complete sitter too and has an element of risk.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Yeah, I get you. Didn't mean to say I will stop trying to serve properly but I am going to keep the tap practiced and ready so that I do have SOME second serve capable of getting into play every time. Go for it on the first and tap it in on the second is what I am thinking for now.

They came up with the following saying for a reason:

"You are only as good as your second serve".

In a tournament, if you have a weak 2nd serve, you need to change your mindset on your first serve. You need to blow off ace hunting, and get a lot of first serves in.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Great instructors like @nytennisaddict

thx for the kind words... i'm not an instructor... just a student sharing things i'm learning on my path to rec greatness
there are far more knowledgeable folks in here (too many to name, for fear of missing someone)

 

[ByeByePoly]

OK but you'll admit that using 2 ex-collegiate athletes is an outlier for the garden variety USTA league?

Winning 4.5 in less than 5 years is an outlier. It took me 10+, and I played a lot of tennis in those 10+ years. Even then ... wouldn't have happened from the baseline. We have discussed this before ... so I know @S&V-not_dead_yet gets it.

Tennis is cruel. At 28 I had 4.5 s&v game ... but baseline needed to be better. At 59 ... baseline much stronger, but not the legs. I think if I could send the current groundstrokes back in time to 28 BBP, might have a 5.0. Then again ... might work against 28 BBP having options. It saved a lot of thinking when it was as simple as "I lose if I stay back".

You have to sell s&v to the new players ... you don't want to be the last rec player that served and volleyed. They will put your statue in a museum.

 

[ByeByePoly]

thx for the kind words... i'm not an instructor... just a student sharing things i'm learning on my path to rec greatness
there are far more knowledgeable folks in here (too many to name, for fear of missing someone)

Sorry buddy ... you are a quality instructor. I don't like to name names either, because there is so much quality help here. I will name @SinjinCooper ... because I get great instruction with great humor. I figure if I got lessons from him, even when I sucked I would be laughing. Oh my ... can you imagine the verbal abuse he could hit you with. Sinjin ... is that right? Are you brutal ... or a good bedside manner? Probably depends if teaching babes.

NYTA ... you do have one logic flaw. You say if you can't 1) mini ... or 2) hit high ts ... you must not have that skill. Well ... I don't drive the wrong way down the highway, or swim with sharks, or sleep with guys. Lack of skills?

 

[iChen]

You have to sell s&v to the new players ... you don't want to be the last rec player that served and volleyed. They will put your statue in a museum.

Interesting. Everyone seems to like baseline and pace and hard hits for winners. Alpha males.

I like the serve and approach shot -> get beaten by passing shot If not then I get a volley

 

[ByeByePoly]

Interesting. Everyone seems to like baseline and pace and hard hits for winners. Alpha males.

I like the serve and approach shot -> get beaten by passing shot If not then I get a volley

OK sir Chen ... if you dish it out, you should be able to take it. I threw myself into "uncomfortable" in my singles match this morning. The pattern with my buddy this summer has been if I stick to 1hbh slice (including returns) I generally win. If I hit my 2hbh a lot, he wins. I had a great 2hbh drill session yesterday ... so time for a little Chen uncomfortable. 2hbh everything for first 4 games was unconscious ... hit through everything and went up 4 zero. We were both laughing because it was obviously one of those moments I should go straight to Vegas. Sure ... after 4 games 2hbh went back to a different type of unconscious (sleeping kind) ... but this is my story and we aren't going to dwell on that.

Here is another lesson you have to keep learning. When we add or change something in a stroke we tend to tense up and/or try and help guide the stroke. My 2hbh has been ball machine for two summers. It was also drill session good yesterday. The difference is as soon as I play a set (always want to win) ... I start "thinking"... which leads to "guiding". In golf there is an expression "trust your swing". If you have a bad driving day off the teebox ... and try to help by guiding it gets much worse. I find the same thing with the 2hbh ... you gotta let it go/release... even if 6 feet over the net (brought it back to topic).

So 2hbh "uncomfortable" singles #1. I figure if I stick with it until winter, I will get to 2 full sets comfortable.

Edit: a couple winning volleys and got passed more than a couple. Hard to work on approach and baseline 2hbh at same time.

 

[iChen]

Sometimes the strokes are just awesome when you're not expecting them to be.

I hit a cross court nice forehand last night for a winner, good pace. Felt like Federer. Then I hit 2 straight FHs 3 feet past baseline, got broken. And then remembered why I was relying on backhand all night long.

Yeah I feel like I overthink it sometimes on approach shots and think too much on placement. Then I mistime and hit a loopy, here's a free winner for you.

Instead of just not overthinking and just push the ball over where he'd need to run..

 

[ByeByePoly]

Sometimes the strokes are just awesome when you're not expecting them to be.

I hit a cross court nice forehand last night for a winner, good pace. Felt like Federer. Then I hit 2 straight FHs 3 feet past baseline, got broken. And then remembered why I was relying on backhand all night long.

Yeah I feel like I overthink it sometimes on approach shots and think too much on placement. Then I mistime and hit a loopy, here's a free winner for you.

Instead of just not overthinking and just push the ball over where he'd need to run..

dtl better for approaching. Did I hit cc fh today, come in and pay for it ... yes I did.

My buddies don't analyze their games or gear like we do here at ttw, but I've noticed they are curious often on some technical stuff. My friend today is a perfect example. A couple of weeks ago I mentioned to a friend that I noticed he served with level shoulders. I told him I had recently read the shoulder joint/arm arm built to deliver with tilted shoulders. He immediately said he heard the same thing in D1 collge baseball. He was a catcher. I'm not sure he is willing to change ... but I could see the gears turning.

Same thing today ... same friend. I was saying I kept hitting too many FHs with an abbreviated shoulder turn. I had to explain it to him in terms of stance, and shoulder line past hip line. Like I said ... most don't have the interest in this type of thing, so I always watch to drop it if it's boring someone. Not this time ... he immediately said "Exactly". He had felt it himself in his own FH ... effortless pace sometimes, and not others. He would not have been able pinpoint the issue as shoulder turn. Some of this actually helps to hear it once ... changing habits after is another matter.

 

[Dartagnan64]

The problem with going to net is that if you can't volley, you'll just give away points.
1) Hit a deep groundstroke that generates a short ball
2) Approach shot that pull him out wide.
3) Volley into the net. Lose point.

At that point, you just lost to a 2.0 bunter.
So, yea, you can't just go into the net and expect magic.

The exception to this is if opponent panics and overhits ball into net, or lobs long.
Is that how those 4.5 hacks advanced so quickly?
I find volley is the single hardest stroke in tennis.

Most rec coaches have no idea how to teach the serve.
It is something you just need to figure out on your own, naturally.

Then learn to freaking volley. It's not even close to the hardest stroke in tennis. You just have to line up the racket with the ball. BH overhead smash is probably the hardest stroke in tennis followed closely by the twist serve.

There is no way someone should be able to set up a weak sitter beautifully and not be able to finish it at the net. No point in even playing tennis if your goal just becomes winning by "pushing until the other guy makes an error". Learn how to move people around, give them varieties in depth, pace and spin until you get a weak reply, attack and finish at the net. That's tennis at its best and what anyone really trying to develop their game should strive for. Pushing and defending should be the fallback position for players too unskilled and undedicated to develop a solid repertory of groundstrokes, overheads, volleys and serves.

I would gladly lose 100 straight matches if it meant I could develop a solid foundation of tennis strokes and tactics and not have to rely on gimmickry and opponents failure to play winning tennis. I want the game on my racquet and I want to know i can execute the best shot for the situation. And yes sometimes the best shot for the situation is a lob or moonball, but it shouldn't be the only shot in your bag.

 

[iChen]

TTPS just sounds weird with his thoughts on strategy lol

But seriously like volley to me is just about stable base of footing and anticipation.

 

[ByeByePoly]

TTPS just sounds weird with his thoughts on strategy lol

But seriously like volley to me is just about stable base of footing and anticipation.

Singles volley is seldom a reflex volley. Doubles volley requires more skill ... at least at the higher levels. Most singles volleys will be won or lost on the approach ... with volley just being a finishing block. As you go higher in levels ... a lot more passing shots, but still surprising points end with a simple block volley.

 

[iChen]

Singles volley is seldom a reflex volley. Doubles volley requires more skill ... at least at the higher levels. Most singles volleys will be won or lost on the approach ... with volley just being a finishing block. As you go higher in levels ... a lot more passing shots, but still surprising points end with a simple block volley.

Ah okay. Probably should take a lesson on better approach shots and not leaving open court for the opponent then thank you

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

I can only speak for 3.5 and 4.0, but dinking your 2nd serve in is the best way to win matches.
When you double fault, you lose the point.
When you dink it in, the returner might go full **** on that and hit it into the fence.
Or he gets it in, and now you have a chance of playing the point. 2 ways to win.

I must have DF'ed at least once per service game tonight.
One service game, 3 DF's. If I dinked, I would have done much better.

This is why if you are developing a new stroke, don't bother playing matches you care about winning.
You'll do worse with all the new error you are making.
I played on a whole new level today, and made winners like I never have in my life.
I also made twice as many mistakes as I normally do, and got crushed worse than usual.

 

[Dartagnan64]

I can only speak for 3.5 and 4.0, but dinking your 2nd serve in is the best way to win matches.
When you double fault, you lose the point.
When you dink it in, the returner might go full **** on that and hit it into the fence.
Or he gets it in, and now you have a chance of playing the point. 2 ways to win.

I must have DF'ed at least once per service game tonight.
One service game, 3 DF's. If I dinked, I would have done much better.

This is why if you are developing a new stroke, don't bother playing matches you care about winning.
You'll do worse with all the new error you are making.
I played on a whole new level today, and made winners like I never have in my life.
I also made twice as many mistakes as I normally do, and got crushed worse than usual.

This is why someone needs to learn a second serve before a first. If you can't reliably get a decent second serve in you are toast generally. As someone once said, "you are only as good as your second serve"

If you are dinking in second serves for fear of double faulting, you will never progress past 3.5. I've yet to meet a 4.0 second serve dinker. Plenty of them at 3.0 and 3.5. Beating pushers and learning a second serve are rights of passage to 4.0.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Then learn to freaking volley. It's not even close to the hardest stroke in tennis. .

Easier said than done. I spent 3 straight months of daily hitting on FH, BH, serve, 2nd serve, approach shot.
I ran out of time for volleys.
So, it will have to wait until next year.
But, in the meantime, the scenario I listed is very real.

No point in learning to volley if you have junk baseline skills and no approach shot skills.
I spent weeks on just approach shot, which most 3.5 players have no idea how to hit.

 

[Noveson]

uh, no, even 5.0s are not gonna nuke that "moonball" (with that depth).

a 4.0 might even hit an ufe. a 4.5 (like me) will probably try to neutralize,... but certainly not attack it. a 5.0 might be aggressive with it, but it's not gonna be an automatic consistent winner,... and fairly easy to defend given how much further it has to travel.

he's hitting high over the net with plenty of topspin... not slow moving.

that said, getting consistent doing that will be a lifetime learning.

Glad someone said it. I'm sure as hell not hitting a winner off that every time. Probably hitting it hard and making their next shot weaker(hopefully), maybe a winner once in a while.

 

[iChen]

Easier said than done. I spent 3 straight months of daily hitting on FH, BH, serve, 2nd serve, approach shot.
I ran out of time for volleys.
So, it will have to wait until next year.
But, in the meantime, the scenario I listed is very real.

No point in learning to volley if you have junk baseline skills and no approach shot skills.
I spent weeks on just approach shot, which most 3.5 players have no idea how to hit.

FH landing one deep with low bounce? BH slice to make opponent run? What's the point of learning approach shot without learning volley at sort of same time?

Also even if you have good baseline skills for a 3.5, that also leaves me room to just loop/slice/defensive shot back because then I know the other player doesn't have an approach shot they feel confident with, can't attack my defensive shot well at the net.

 

[atp2015]

I play lots of people who tap all their serves and still play more or less even with me because my other strokes are no better than theirs, but I would personally still never recommend someone to go back to tapping if they can hit a proper serve with top spin. Double faulting understandably really sucks though if you are playing a match against someone. But I'd rather even hit an underhand sidespinner than tap it, but that takes practice to not be a complete sitter too and has an element of risk.

Players who just tap their serves, usually have great defensive skills. It did not make sense initially that they play at my level with a serve 2 levels below - they have moved up because of the great defensive skills. I play quite a few of players who don't make one offensive shot, if I'm against a clock that day to finish the match in less than 90 minutes the result is not in doubt at all.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

I play lots of people who tap all their serves and still play more or less even with me because my other strokes are no better than theirs, but I would personally still never recommend someone to go back to tapping if they can hit a proper serve with top spin. Double faulting understandably really sucks though if you are playing a match against someone. But I'd rather even hit an underhand sidespinner than tap it, but that takes practice to not be a complete sitter too and has an element of risk.

The thing is I can 'hit' a proper serve but not one that goes in regularly enough. It gets frustrating even in friendlies. That being the case, as much as I would not want to go back to tapping, I have to consider it at least for the second serve. When I have stabilised my proper serve, I will just go for a strong second serve on the first delivery sort of like what @ByeByePoly has advocated.

 

[Deleted member 754093]

Glad someone said it. I'm sure as hell not hitting a winner off that every time. Probably hitting it hard and making their next shot weaker(hopefully), maybe a winner once in a while.

Former college player right here, everyone.

Case closed

 

[5263]

No u really don't. Post a vid of you hitting moon balls like that in a 4.0+ Usta match

I guess these two 5.0s couldn't hang in your area, right? They didn't know they were supposed to smoke winners off the shots at 1:34, 1:54, 1:59, 2:01 etc.....

 

[5263]

Sorry, no 4.0 on the planet is going to "nuke" a ball with heavy spin, high bource, that lands near the baseline.
...........
You'd be surprised at how UNCOMMON this knowledge is.
...........
Well said. Stick to what works in the real world.
The guy teaching me has steamrolled local 5.0 USTA hacks, and I am basically quoting what he's told me all summer.
No one I ever play in this lifetime will be attacking high topspin shots that land on the baseline.

+1. That line is what he's been saying all summer. In the real world, at my level, half of these deep balls don't even get hit back to me.

I'm with your coach 90% here and love that high explosive ball. This is one of the regular TT battles we see over and over. I can only guess they just don't realize how much slower balls tend to look on video. Your ball has good pace and is really biting down nicely, which will make it kick up off the bounce. It's the same reason Nadal's balls rarely get attacked by the best on the planet.

Now for the 10% that concerns me. Sure depth is good with the right application and timing, but there seems to be an overemphasis on it here. Players working for too much depth get into a loop that has no real solution. It's not that hard to do pretty good, but trying to be exceptional with depth tends to leave you always feeling like you need just need to get better, to do it better; and often at the expense of consistent execution overall improvement. Different players will affect the depth you get on their balls too. Charting a lot of matches, both pro and rec, tells me that too much concern for depth will result in a 2 to 1 negative ratio where the player will just miss long 2 or 3 times for every super deep shot they make. Thats a losing percentage unless the guy on the other side is doing the same thing. (often the case in US tennis) So SURE, hit for good depth....just don't let it push you into a corner where your intent for depth is causing too many long shots.

 

[iChen]

Well as long as just it isn't the focus of the strategy, just like slicing isn't just the point of the strategy. Woz is using this higher net clearance TS shot right now well in the 2nd set, resetting control of point but also gaining chance to take control.

 

[jmnk]

Can we just a get vid of this being used? Thats all I want at this point. Just someone show me this strat in action against a legitimately good player.

that legendary TTW video should do. The ever popular 'shirtless pusher' video. Almost all of it is a steady diet of high someone deep balls that makes the opponent almost lose his mind.....

oh, and yes, the opponent _is_ a 4.5 lever player, at least he was at the time that video was recorded.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Easier said than done. I spent 3 straight months of daily hitting on FH, BH, serve, 2nd serve, approach shot.
I ran out of time for volleys.
So, it will have to wait until next year.
But, in the meantime, the scenario I listed is very real.

No point in learning to volley if you have junk baseline skills and no approach shot skills.
I spent weeks on just approach shot, which most 3.5 players have no idea how to hit.

Play some doubles. That'll work on your volley game in a hurry.

 

[GuyClinch]

Pshhaww. 45 minutes on the ball machine is more volleys then 20 doubles matches. Doubles is pretty good at killing time. Not so good for tennis.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Pshhaww. 45 minutes on the ball machine is more volleys then 20 doubles matches. Doubles is pretty good at killing time. Not so good for tennis.

i find that volleys on the ball machine are terrible, because i can't practice the critical timing of the split,... and my transition volley.

doubles is a good way to practice (transition) volleys and protect your ego (i.e. losing a singles match you'd normally win if you stayed at the baseline)

ideal is playing half court singles,... but it's rare (for me) to find people that will do that (or in general will do deliberate practice,.. most just "want to hit" (ie from the center hash), or play sets (full court))