Two Handed Both Sides
- Thread starter tacoben
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Your ratings point isn't relative because you are using rankings statistics from an American audience. Of course the latter is going to be lower because those are European players. Its not a nice vs nasty for the USA. Its lack of USA players that is the problem.
TennisCoachFLA
Banned
??? That makes no sense. We can't talk about ratings we do not have. The point is that people, in this case Americans, are not running away from louder players and running to prim and proper players.
As far as pop culture....Williams sisters and Sharapova (she might as well be American) are pretty much the WTA's only pop culture icons....the world follows Americans in regards to music and movies and everything else.
Common sense says that the ratings would rise the same as the ratings I posted.
Unless we ever have a super nice and quiet American top women at the same time as a tougher and louder American women we can not compare 1 to 1.
But my hunch, and common sense, says that if a Davenport was at her prime, her ratings would be lower in America and around the world than Serena's.
The world is not flocking to tune into Ms. manners shows, they are flocking to rough reality TV shows.
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Calm down there cowboy - I wasn't even talking about nice vs nasty - I was only disagreeing with your ratings example.
Hey what happened to two handed players on both sides. 
I still think Kimberly's Dad made the right descision to convert her to a one handed forehand. Not that many girls play on the next level with that. Marion Bartoli ? Sivan Krems stated she wanted to go pro (like everybody else) but in my opinion one handed forehand for me.
Lets see how many people chime in on that. the original post.
I still think Kimberly's Dad made the right descision to convert her to a one handed forehand. Not that many girls play on the next level with that. Marion Bartoli ? Sivan Krems stated she wanted to go pro (like everybody else) but in my opinion one handed forehand for me.Lets see how many people chime in on that. the original post
.tennis-silver
Banned
Hey what happened to two handed players on both sides.
Lets see how many people chime in on that. the original post
I'm down with the one handed forehand!~
lovethegame47
New User
Two-handed discussion
Regarding the debate on two-hands both sides (2hbs) vs. one-hand ...that cliche 'different strokes for different folks' seems to be applicable. Seles and Bartoli have proven that 2hbs can make things happen at the highest level of woman's professional tennis. On the men's side, not so sure one can argue the highest ranked have employed that technique; there was Hans Gildemeister from Chile and Frew McMillan eons ago, and more recently Jan-Michael Gambil, and of course the master Fabrice Santoro...The $164,000 question is which person (what attributes physically and mentally) can leverage the stroke best? And then, I've noticed, the stroke itself has variations -- most do not change from right hand on top to right hand on bottom when shifting from forehand to backhand (college players Andre Dome and Ali Ramos,,,juniors Jonny Wang , Catherine Harrison and Anna Mamalat, who won Grass Courts); one individual does make the change, Sivan Krems. Can't recall seeing others who do that speedy rigs shift.. All two-handers, however, have impeccable footwork, court sense, great timing, take the ball on the rise, and have super returns of serve.
Regarding the debate on two-hands both sides (2hbs) vs. one-hand ...that cliche 'different strokes for different folks' seems to be applicable. Seles and Bartoli have proven that 2hbs can make things happen at the highest level of woman's professional tennis. On the men's side, not so sure one can argue the highest ranked have employed that technique; there was Hans Gildemeister from Chile and Frew McMillan eons ago, and more recently Jan-Michael Gambil, and of course the master Fabrice Santoro...The $164,000 question is which person (what attributes physically and mentally) can leverage the stroke best? And then, I've noticed, the stroke itself has variations -- most do not change from right hand on top to right hand on bottom when shifting from forehand to backhand (college players Andre Dome and Ali Ramos,,,juniors Jonny Wang , Catherine Harrison and Anna Mamalat, who won Grass Courts); one individual does make the change, Sivan Krems. Can't recall seeing others who do that speedy rigs shift.. All two-handers, however, have impeccable footwork, court sense, great timing, take the ball on the rise, and have super returns of serve.
Nice point, my Daughter stated whenever she played Sivan, Sivan would disgiuse her shots so well, she could never tell where they were coming from. She has played Catherine Harrison on several occasions, and still unable to figure her out, unbelievable player! Hard to play against all those things you mentioned those two handers could do.
WARPWOODIE
Rookie
If a junior tennis player started out with 2HBS (as early as 8 years old), then switched over to one handed forehand at 11 years old, then finds themselves struggling in tournaments and more importantly, in confidence, should they go back to the 2HBS? I know of a junior who is having this problem.
lovethegame47
New User
2hbs dialogue continued
While there are some male 2hbs players doing some great stuff, i sense it's much harder to excel according to the way mens' tennis is played (eventually); for girls tennis and womens tennis (eventually), conversely, I argue that 2hbs is doable, but again have to figure out if the individual player has what it takes to excel using that technique. Kimberly Y. in Vegas is, I believe, coached by her dad. She moved to one-handed forehand. And that one-handed forehand technique I have observed, doesn't break down, and achieves more heavy topspin than Kimberly was producing with the two-handed forehand -- so, amazing job done by the dad/teacher and Kimberly on reconstruction of the forehand! Different strokes for different folks. If a change is undertaken, it's likely that some short-term setbacks in the win-loss column will happen. Is the 11-year-old that you know able to have the maturity to embrace that? Or should the transition take place later, say, at age 13 or 14? Might want to have Kimbery Y''s dad weigh in here!
While there are some male 2hbs players doing some great stuff, i sense it's much harder to excel according to the way mens' tennis is played (eventually); for girls tennis and womens tennis (eventually), conversely, I argue that 2hbs is doable, but again have to figure out if the individual player has what it takes to excel using that technique. Kimberly Y. in Vegas is, I believe, coached by her dad. She moved to one-handed forehand. And that one-handed forehand technique I have observed, doesn't break down, and achieves more heavy topspin than Kimberly was producing with the two-handed forehand -- so, amazing job done by the dad/teacher and Kimberly on reconstruction of the forehand! Different strokes for different folks. If a change is undertaken, it's likely that some short-term setbacks in the win-loss column will happen. Is the 11-year-old that you know able to have the maturity to embrace that? Or should the transition take place later, say, at age 13 or 14? Might want to have Kimbery Y''s dad weigh in here!
Know Mr. Yee quite well. He started Kimberly with the 1hf when she was about ten. As you noted, she creates heavy top spin because of extreme western grip. But tends to leave it a little short especially on the service return. One reason A.Yee pointed out why she converted was because even though she was quick on the court, her court coverage was not what it should be off that wing. I think he made the right decision for his kid, already one of the top juniors in the country and could only get better.
TennisCoachFLA
Banned
That is the problem many girls who use western grips have, as they age the top girls demolish their short shots. A short service return in the women's game is death. Many top women live off their return games more than their serves.
Very few women are able to generate enough topspin to succeed at the higher levels of tennis. Thats why Macci and others train the girls to hit more penetrating and slightly flatter shots. Coaching a girl as you would a boy can be a disaster.
It will be interesting to watch if Yee is able to continue top success as she gets older. Keep an eye on her record vs blue chips as opposed to lower players, that can be an early sign that her stroke is topping out in its effectiveness.
Sadly, we see talented girls try the extreme topspin forehand and end up hitting brick walls one day. A coach must look ahead to what the girl's and their opponents will be come age 18-19.
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jigglypuff
Rookie
I think this is regardless of whether they are male or female.
TennisCoachFLA
Banned
Yes and no. The boys can take it a good bit further. Macci had a study where the RPMs generated by boys and girls the same age were vastly different.
What happens is that the top girls soon learn to just sit on the short topspin forehands and crush them. But you are correct, even most boys can reach a dead end with a western grip if their forehands start to sit up there.
The service game is totally different men's vs women's. The stats are scary the WTA vs ATP as far as aces, serves won. The women mostly rely on the return game and many women at the D-1 and pro level would rather return that serve.
Is this relative only to the extreme grip? I've seen lots of top girls hit great pace and depth with the semi western grip.
lovethegame47
New User
You know you're a blue chip when....
I found the sentence in a previous post to be intriguing :"Keep an eye on her record vs blue chips as opposed to lower players, that can be an early sign that her stroke is topping out in its effectiveness." Indeed I find the Blue Chip/5-Star/4-Star/3-star/2-star/1-star system set up by Tennisrecruiting.net to be pretty revealing/enlightening. Had this thought and would like others to chime in...We all know comedian Jeff Foxworthy and his 'You know you're a redneck when...' schtick...How about generating a list 'You know you're playing a Bluechip with a higher win-to-loss record when..." Here's a starter list, and hope others contribute...
when...practically no unforced errors, or maybe one, is produced an entire set
when.. the number of their winners in the match has exceeded their number of forced errors
when...your aggressive shot that would be a winner on someone else is neutralized by a smartly executed defensive shot that not only gets the blue-chipper back into the point, but perhaps sets up an error from you
when...you can't remember them double-faulting once during the match
when...they have produced at least one service winner per game when they are serving, and they have produced at least one return winner per game when returning
when...you thought you were in control of the point and one shot for them turned you into being hopelessly on the defensive
when...they produced a sick slice backhand or angle shot that you thought you saw Federer use in a grand slam -- more than once in the match
when...you've got wheels and they've dropshotted you successfully more than three times during a match
when..you're up a set and they show no signs of being disturbed, and have not once showed poor body posture or turned to spectators outside of the court with the 'i can get distracted or down on myself' look on their face
when...they don't utter a word about their play or yours...but just take care of business, match, after match, after match
Feel free to correct/delete/add/substract at will folks!
I found the sentence in a previous post to be intriguing :"Keep an eye on her record vs blue chips as opposed to lower players, that can be an early sign that her stroke is topping out in its effectiveness." Indeed I find the Blue Chip/5-Star/4-Star/3-star/2-star/1-star system set up by Tennisrecruiting.net to be pretty revealing/enlightening. Had this thought and would like others to chime in...We all know comedian Jeff Foxworthy and his 'You know you're a redneck when...' schtick...How about generating a list 'You know you're playing a Bluechip with a higher win-to-loss record when..." Here's a starter list, and hope others contribute...
when...practically no unforced errors, or maybe one, is produced an entire set
when.. the number of their winners in the match has exceeded their number of forced errors
when...your aggressive shot that would be a winner on someone else is neutralized by a smartly executed defensive shot that not only gets the blue-chipper back into the point, but perhaps sets up an error from you
when...you can't remember them double-faulting once during the match
when...they have produced at least one service winner per game when they are serving, and they have produced at least one return winner per game when returning
when...you thought you were in control of the point and one shot for them turned you into being hopelessly on the defensive
when...they produced a sick slice backhand or angle shot that you thought you saw Federer use in a grand slam -- more than once in the match
when...you've got wheels and they've dropshotted you successfully more than three times during a match
when..you're up a set and they show no signs of being disturbed, and have not once showed poor body posture or turned to spectators outside of the court with the 'i can get distracted or down on myself' look on their face
when...they don't utter a word about their play or yours...but just take care of business, match, after match, after match
Feel free to correct/delete/add/substract at will folks!
jigglypuff
Rookie
^^^^^
Wow... you would have to be on the tour raking in money if those were true.
Wow... you would have to be on the tour raking in money if those were true.
TennisCoachFLA
Banned
Yes, the girls with extreme western grips usually hit the wall earlier. Their forehands can't generate enough topspin like the boys to continue to be effective weapons and the top girls can pounce on the shots. And I totally get their are exceptions that people can cite.
The semi western....more balance....still topspin but a flatter and more penetrating shot. This allows the girls to take it further towards the upper levels of tennis.
I wish I had the Rick Macci video where he explains how to train girls to hit flatter and boys to use topspin more....he explains it way better than I can.
lovethegame47
New User
Re jigglypuff comment on 'you know yo'ure playing a bluechip with a greater...'
So Jigglypuff (and others)...do you think that my attributes list for those who are bluechips sporting a greater-win-to-loss record against fellow bluechippers is 'fantastic', i.e. not real? From my observational post, I've seen some bluechippers who possess all those..and i see them being tougher to play than, say, an Oudin.
So Jigglypuff (and others)...do you think that my attributes list for those who are bluechips sporting a greater-win-to-loss record against fellow bluechippers is 'fantastic', i.e. not real? From my observational post, I've seen some bluechippers who possess all those..and i see them being tougher to play than, say, an Oudin.
Ok - right . Thanks!
I'll try to search for that video. I did see some of his tennis tips on youtube.
My kids use the semi-western grip. I had learned early on that the extreme grip was good for juniors and smaller stature kids. Also that the coaches usually change that to semi as they get older.
Do you all change the extreme to semi as they get older and/or taller?
TennisCoachFLA
Banned
Here is one Macci clip about boys vs girls. He mentions the spin with the boys but it cuts off before he really gets into the boys topspin vs girls flatter forehand part.
http://www.tennisresources.com/index.cfm?area=video_detail&rv=1&vidid=2316
Why are boys able to generate more depth with topspin shots? Is it simply their being stronger?
My daughter had extremely flat shots but her new coach has recently changed her grip for both groundstrokes to add more spin. Her shots are still generally very deep. Of course she is 16 and actually very strong. Her coach always says "you are so strong" or "I can't believe how strong you are"
TennisCoachFLA
Banned
You are 100% correct....it is all about strength.
What often happens is the girls with topspin dominate while young. But eventually as their power levels off, the better opponents can handle their topspin and the ball ends up sitting up to be bashed back.
Males on average end up a lot stronger than women the same age by age 18 or so. They can continue to use topspin as a weapon where as for many girls it becomes a liability.
Now this is very general.....every one of us knows examples of strong girls with killer topspin that can flourish even in the older age groups. Your daughter may be one of these exceptions.
But most top coaches play the percentages....they get the girls to hit a little flatter and deeper than the boys. And of course its not that women hit no topspin, they do. The trick is balancing so the balls are deep enough and don't sit up like wounded ducks for the big girls to bash back.
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tennisgreat755
New User
just wondering, who is this player?
JT, in NorCal.
AT NorCal?
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Ah. I only saw AT play once...I remember AT as being fiery (in a good way, but on the edge) more so than him being 2hbs.
You can see I'm pretty narrow banded in kids that I know and am aware of, they are typically +- 2 years from my own kid.
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