What is wrong with Nadal

[NLBwell]

Watching the Nishikori/Nadal match, it was apparent to me what Nadal's problem is: he just isn't running as hard or swinging as hard as he used to.
He managed to do it for a little streak in the second set, but couldn't keep it up. The margin between players is so thin at that level that even a few mph and rpm can make the difference between a ball the opponent has trouble with and one he can attack.
On TV, they showed the stats on the players' spin, and Nadal's was down below 3000 rpm - significantly below his usual level. Yes, the night air was slowing the conditions, but it wouldn't have affected him that much in the past. Normally, for him, less spin translates to more speed, but this was not the case.
Part of it was that he wasn't running as hard to get in position for his forehand to take control of the point, and part of it was his swing speed. On his serve, he hit a couple of hard serves, but his bread and butter serve over the years was a sliding serve that was tricky and effective. The serve seemed to sit up more and be more attackable - maybe not as much spin on the serve as prior years also.
There could be 3 reasons for this that I can think of right now:
1. Mental - not trusting that his body can do it and not willing himself to drive his body to the limit
may be able to recover his previous form
2. Physical Conditioning - After injuries and layoffs he isn't in the condition to play his previous game, but may be able to recover that conditioning
may be able to recover his previous form
3. Long term wear and tear - As age and injuries occur, after a while it is just physically impossible to do the things you used to do
will never recover his previous form

(please don't turn this into a PEDS/No PEDS thread, I don't care about the reason in this poll)

 

[hup]

he is declining simple as that. he has alot of tennis mileage but continues to play the same way as he did when he was younger which is not going to give him results.

 

[MichaelNadal]

You touched on one with the spin. He's not hitting with any ferocity at all compared to how he has his whole career. His racquet head speed is absolutely gone at this point and he's popcorning soft, fuzzy balls right into flat hitters strike zone with no pace. Then when they murder it, he's standing far enough back to make me a sandwich. Look where he was standing in 2013.

 

[nguyentuanson16792]

(please don't turn this into a PEDS/No PEDS thread, I don't care about the reason in this poll)

First

 

[Tennis_Hands]

Could we stop with this "Nadal is a mental giant" (and the subsequent "his problem is mental") stupidity?

He was a "mental giant" when he had a number of absolutely real advantages over his biggest rivals.

No more.

 

[thatguyoverthere440]

IMO it's a combination of all three.

Mental (I think confidence here):
He can drive forehands and backhands at the most ridiculous situations. We've seen that before, even this year. Against Kei he showed he can really attack a ball (second set), but I think his confidence isn't quite where it was and he's not comfortable consistently playing more aggressive tennis that we all know he's capable of.

Physical Conditioning:
During that match, a healthy number of Nadal's shots and topspin (particularly this forehand weapon) were landing shorter in the court, where before he'd be able to near the baseline keeping his opponents in neutral (or even defense). As Kei showed, these shots were VERY attack-able, pulverizing corner to corner with Nadal's famous foot speed keeping rallies alive (sometimes barely).

Wear and Tear:
This one really needs no explanation. Many major injuries and he's already 28.

That being said, the first two problems can be fixed over time, like he has done previously with his resurgences.

 

[thatguyoverthere440]

Correction: he's 29

 

[Tennis_Hands]

During that match, a healthy number of Nadal's shots and topspin (particularly this forehand weapon) were landing shorter in the court, where before he'd be able to near the baseline keeping his opponents in neutral (or even defense). As Kei showed, these shots were VERY attack-able, pulverizing corner to corner with Nadal's famous foot speed keeping rallies alive (sometimes barely).

I believe that he reserves his best in that regard for the US Open.

There is no reason why he would be putting balls short, if he can get to them on time. No reason at all.

 

[MichaelNadal]

His shots don't even sound the same when he hits them anymore. In retrospect, he should have stayed with the new racquet. I can't imagine it wouldn't be starting to pay at least some dividends by now. Nadal needs Apollo Creed in a bad way. There is no tomorrow!!!!

 

[bjsnider]

Subtle loss of speed/movement. Doesn't quite get into perfect position to hit shots anymore. The tour moves on, but many people on this site haven't (yet).

 

[NGM]

You touched on one with the spin. He's not hitting with any ferocity at all compared to how he has his whole career. His racquet head speed is absolutely gone at this point and he's popcorning soft, fuzzy balls right into flat hitters strike zone with no pace. Then when they murder it, he's standing far enough back to make me a sandwich. Look where he was standing in 2013.

This statistics are important. It means Nadal's forehand is not heavy as it used to be, and other players can send them back with more pace than before.

 

[The_18th_Slam]

Maybe nothing is wrong with Nadal. Maybe the field caught up with him! Just like how it did with Federer in 2010/2011!

 

[BeatlesFan]

So many people on this Forum have only discovered tennis in the past 5-10 years, so they've never experienced their favorite player declining. The older people here will all clearly remember how their favorites from the past slowly (or sometimes quickly) became a shell of what they once were. It's unavoidable and it's clearly happened to Nadal in the past year. Watching Rafa against Kei was like watching Sampras play Roddick in Miami in 2001: you knew then he was done. He had one last, grand hurrah in the USO, but such fairytale endings happen once in a lifetime in tennis.

Nadal is simply old in tennis terms. A lot of that is his doing: he chose to play a defensive, grinding, brutal style of play. He's an all-time great, and he won on all surfaces despite a very one-dimensional style of play. But even lithe, beautifully talented players like Edberg or Mac got old and deteriorated too.

You can discuss this forever and come up with endless "what if's?" with Nadal... it won't change the fact he's done. Sure, he can still win 250's and 500's on clay. He is not contending for majors anymore, that chapter is closed. There's not some magic light switch he can flip and once again make in 2008. The most interesting question with Nadal is whether his ego can take losing early in most non-clay tournaments he plays. I can't see him crashing out in the QF's (or earlier) week after week and being OK with that. I think he if can't contend for majors anymore he will leave the game. Give him till September, 2016 and see what he does, because that will mean two straight years with no slams and he'll be an old, damaged 30 years of age.

 

[JohnnyMac Fan!]

What's wrong with Nadal?

Everything!

 

[Mac33]

He's like a golfer who has lost 10 yards off the tee. It compounds to the next shot remember.

Hitting the ball with a few percent less RHS speed equates to a loss of power and control.

His movement while still excellent is far short of the super sprinter he once was.

His natural game is more loopy than flat so changing to powerful strokes is difficult.

It certainly looks like on hard courts any Masters 1000 or Grand Slam short of the FO is well beyond him.

Getting old happens to everyone. Nadal has gotten a little older just a bit quicker than some of the others.

 

[goeblack]

I firmly believe that his heart is just not in it. I say that in response to many of his interview statements. Not everyone is Fed, where they wake up every morning wanting to hit the practice court. Look at some past statements from Stephie Graf. How about Agassi, he hated the game at the end.

Sure, he wants to support his team. He wants to please Tony, but I think for him it is now nothing short of agony. My heart goes out to him. He has been truly great for the game.
I do not see him hanging on like Fed with many near miss majors.

 

[SoBad]

Nishikori highly talented and dangerous on path to first slam.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Nishikori highly talented and dangerous on path to first slam.

I'd love to see Nissin win a slam. One of the coolest guys on tour imo.

 

[sureshs]

He is like Federer, in decline mode.

 

[SoBad]

I'd love to see Nissin win a slam. One of the coolest guys on tour imo.

Yes, totally -- I also want to see him winning slams. Even without the slams though, he’s already pulling in 10x more than Davydenko who was too busy playing mickey-mouse every week instead of focusing on smart management and PR.

 

[antonico]

If you want a synopsis on Nadal as a player, here it is: Nadal has taken poor technique and despite that, created a legendary career for himself. That alone attests to what is likely the most powerful sheer will the game has seen. The Nadal game is a game that cannot really be taught because it's a unique invention by him, for him. His problem now is the fact he wasn't properly trained as a kid on how to play, and that lack of proper technique is more glaring now. His whole career has been largely making up the deficiency in technique with his fast feet. But as you age, your feet are not there for you as much, so your technique has to be flawless to compensate for slower foot speed. Really, Nadal should have the world's greatest Backhand because he's right-hand dominant. But instead of driving through that shot, he rolls it high and looped with spin 90% of the time, all to get back to the middle and look for the FH. It's a move that's costing him now. He never had proper training on how to play tennis, and when you slow down with age, poor technique just becomes more obvious.

Nadal is left in the position today of having to basically learn how to play the game the way his opponents learned as kids - which means, with proper technique. And that's his problem. It's really too late for him to learn what he never knew. Nadal has taken clay court tennis and through sheer determination willed himself into success on other surfaces. And he relied on his feet to do the lifting for him that way. But today, with poor technique, no power on your shots and slower feet, it's no wonder we see what we do from him - a plummeting ranking. The last question regarding him is simple: how long will he stick around as losses like last night continue to pile up? He's played 3 Majors and 6 Masters events in 2015. He's managed to get past the QF stage in only 2 of the 9 events. He's now 2-7 vs. Top 10 players in 2015. He's been saying is how "healthy" he is now, and that he's going to "keep working hard" to get back to his best. But that song's been sung by him all year, and nobody can really say his game itself is in any better state now than it was in January. Billie Jean King was asked about Nadal in the spring. She, being the single biggest proponent of remaining in a totally positive mindset at all times, was horrified that Nadal would actually be saying publicly he's fearful, nervous, anxious and unconfident. To her, this is a self-fulfilling prophecy. And he should stop immediately thinking and saying it. She said flatly: it will take him a year to get confidence back. That is, if he's still able to stomach the losses until then, and try to find better ways to play. With no consistent power on any of his shots, a Serve that begs to be clobbered far too often, and a Return that doesn't damage anybody anymore, you do have to wonder what lies ahead for him if he decides to keep playing.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

If you want a synopsis on Nadal as a player, here it is: Nadal has taken poor technique and despite that, created a legendary career for himself. That alone attests to what is likely the most powerful sheer will the game has seen. The Nadal game is a game that cannot really be taught because it's a unique invention by him, for him. His problem now is the fact he wasn't properly trained as a kid on how to play, and that lack of proper technique is more glaring now. His whole career has been largely making up the deficiency in technique with his fast feet. But as you age, your feet are not there for you as much, so your technique has to be flawless to compensate for slower foot speed. Really, Nadal should have the world's greatest Backhand because he's right-hand dominant. But instead of driving through that shot, he rolls it high and looped with spin 90% of the time, all to get back to the middle and look for the FH. It's a move that's costing him now. He never had proper training on how to play tennis, and when you slow down with age, poor technique just becomes more obvious.

Nadal is left in the position today of having to basically learn how to play the game the way his opponents learned as kids - which means, with proper technique. And that's his problem. It's really too late for him to learn what he never knew. Nadal has taken clay court tennis and through sheer determination willed himself into success on other surfaces. And he relied on his feet to do the lifting for him that way. But today, with poor technique, no power on your shots and slower feet, it's no wonder we see what we do from him - a plummeting ranking. The last question regarding him is simple: how long will he stick around as losses like last night continue to pile up? He's played 3 Majors and 6 Masters events in 2015. He's managed to get past the QF stage in only 2 of the 9 events. He's now 2-7 vs. Top 10 players in 2015. He's been saying is how "healthy" he is now, and that he's going to "keep working hard" to get back to his best. But that song's been sung by him all year, and nobody can really say his game itself is in any better state now than it was in January. Billie Jean King was asked about Nadal in the spring. She, being the single biggest proponent of remaining in a totally positive mindset at all times, was horrified that Nadal would actually be saying publicly he's fearful, nervous, anxious and unconfident. To her, this is a self-fulfilling prophecy. And he should stop immediately thinking and saying it. She said flatly: it will take him a year to get confidence back. That is, if he's still able to stomach the losses until then, and try to find better ways to play. With no consistent power on any of his shots, a Serve that begs to be clobbered far too often, and a Return that doesn't damage anybody anymore, you do have to wonder what lies ahead for him if he decides to keep playing.

What a story!

I am interested now.

 

[jm1980]

Nadal is being written off again it seems. He'll play until he surpasses Fed's Slam record, even if it takes him 4 RGs to do so.

 

[antonico]

What a story!

I am interested now.

The Nadal Fan Boiz can be so....comical

 

[swizzy]

i think he should only play clay.. return to his beloved surface and become an even greater specialist..

 

[donquijote]

Of course he is not good psychologically at the moment as he's been losing. That's why his GF is traveling with him now.
But the reason his shots are weak and badly placed hence giving the opponent a chance to attack is because his footwork is way off. He is usually late. Not sure if he has a problem with the legs.

 

[antonico]

Of course he is not good psychologically at the moment as he's been losing. That's why his GF is traveling with him now.
But the reason his shots are weak and badly placed hence giving the opponent a chance to attack is because his footwork is way off. He is usually late. Not sure if he has a problem with the legs.

Yes, and the footwork being way off is a result of the foot speed being slower. He's rushed on shots because these guys are hitting into holes in the court his old foot speed would have closed, or at least narrowed. Nadal is having more Winners hit against him because his feet are not there for him.

 

[Tennisanity]

Nadal is actually playing pretty close to peak level as many Nadal fans say Fed is. The field has simply caught up. Happens to all eventually. The game evolves and your best is simply no longer good enough. It's ok though Nadal achieved a lot with his best so he'll be fine.

 

[Deleted member 3771]

Watching the Nishikori/Nadal match, it was apparent to me what Nadal's problem is: he just isn't running as hard or swinging as hard as he used to.
He managed to do it for a little streak in the second set, but couldn't keep it up. The margin between players is so thin at that level that even a few mph and rpm can make the difference between a ball the opponent has trouble with and one he can attack.
On TV, they showed the stats on the players' spin, and Nadal's was down below 3000 rpm - significantly below his usual level. Yes, the night air was slowing the conditions, but it wouldn't have affected him that much in the past. Normally, for him, less spin translates to more speed, but this was not the case.
Part of it was that he wasn't running as hard to get in position for his forehand to take control of the point, and part of it was his swing speed. On his serve, he hit a couple of hard serves, but his bread and butter serve over the years was a sliding serve that was tricky and effective. The serve seemed to sit up more and be more attackable - maybe not as much spin on the serve as prior years also.
There could be 3 reasons for this that I can think of right now:
1. Mental - not trusting that his body can do it and not willing himself to drive his body to the limit
may be able to recover his previous form
2. Physical Conditioning - After injuries and layoffs he isn't in the condition to play his previous game, but may be able to recover that conditioning
may be able to recover his previous form
3. Long term wear and tear - As age and injuries occur, after a while it is just physically impossible to do the things you used to do
will never recover his previous form

(please don't turn this into a PEDS/No PEDS thread, I don't care about the reason in this poll)

Good post. he cant do the things he used to with the hollow babolat. The hollow babolat he uses is a major handicap. His regular shots are not damaging enough, they sit up too much and they're just too safe, and his winner shots are too high risk. It seems like he needs to hit miraculous looking high risk shots just to hit a standard winner. He has compensated for the handicap of using the hollow babolat with his supreme talent, and by being able to hit with zillion rpm's, but now that he has declined he can no longer do it. How many slams would Federer or Djoko or Murray have won if they handicapped themselves with the hollow apd. None would be a good estimate. He needs to move away from the hollow apd and switch to a racket that helps him hit the ball differently so that his regular shots are more penetrating with less effort. Rafa would get a huge shock at how much easier tennis is if he spent a month test driving every other player's racquets. A change might not get him back to the level he used to be but it would improve his game and help him to continue improving.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Good post. he cant do the things he used to with the hollow babolat. The hollow babolat he uses is a major handicap. His regular shots are not damaging enough, they sit up too much and they're just too safe, and his winner shots are too high risk. It seems like he needs to hit miraculous looking high risk shots just to hit a standard winner. He has compensated for the handicap of using the hollow babolat with his supreme talent, and by being able to hit with zillion rpm's, but now that he has declined he can no longer do it. How many slams would Federer or Djoko or Murray have won if they handicapped themselves with the hollow apd. None would be a good estimate. He needs to move away from the hollow apd and switch to a racket that helps him hit the ball differently so that his regular shots are more penetrating with less effort. Rafa would get a huge shock at how much easier tennis is if he spent a month test driving every other player's racquets. A change might not get him back to the level he used to be but it would improve his game and help him to continue improving.

 

[Uncle Ebeneezer]

So strange the way Nadal was hit fierce groundstrokes the day before against Youzhny and serving impressively. Against Nishikori he was hitting weak shots (serve and groundies) right from the beginning. It was only in the second set when he started belting some deep balls that he started to look like he did the day before. Granted, Kei is a MUCH better player than Youzhny (and hats off to Nishikori who played amazing) and Kei was jumping on every short ball and giving Rafa very little time, but even on alot of neutral balls Rafa was just floating them into the service box when he could have tried to hit them with more depth. I would have thought that "serve big, hit deep" would have been his gameplan going in, especially since it looked to be his strategy against Youzhny. I don't know how much of it is confidence or the cooler night temps.

I think the new racquet idea is probably a good one. Both for the serve and deeper groundstrokes.

 

[donquijote]

So strange the way Nadal was hit fierce groundstrokes the day before against Youzhny and serving impressively. Against Nishikori he was hitting weak shots (serve and groundies) right from the beginning. It was only in the second set when he started belting some deep balls that he started to look like he did the day before. Granted, Kei is a MUCH better player than Youzhny (and hats off to Nishikori who played amazing) and Kei was jumping on every short ball and giving Rafa very little time, but even on alot of neutral balls Rafa was just floating them into the service box when he could have tried to hit them with more depth. I would have thought that "serve big, hit deep" would have been his gameplan going in, especially since it looked to be his strategy against Youzhny. I don't know how much of it is confidence or the cooler night temps.

I think the new racquet idea is probably a good one. Both for the serve and deeper groundstrokes.

Youzhny used to be a good player but he is set to retire soon. Nadal may have looked better against him but I watched that match and he had the same problems. He is usually half a step late and therefore not comfortable making a good stroke. He tried getting into the warrior mode against Nishikori but of course it didn't work as he is a much better player. Nishikori look intimidated at the end (a minus for his mental strength) but even his standard shots were good enough to close it out.

 

[Deleted member 735320]

he is declining simple as that. he has alot of tennis mileage but continues to play the same way as he did when he was younger which is not going to give him results.

True and also the other players are not afraid of him as much or in Nishikori's case at all. That's the same reason Federer can spank some people but the last two W finals Joker won, lack of intimidation. Nadal is done. He needs to check with 1989 and following Wilander, post 1993-Wimbledon Jim Courier and post 1985 US Open John McEnroe.

 

[rossi46]

 

[big ted]

when do you think his level started to go down? i think for some reason that 2014 AO final really hurt him mentally and physically. he was usually playing well up until then. he seemed very distraught after that loss and maybe he did something to his back? he had stem cell treatment on it toward the end of last year. easy to say now but i think he shouldnt have finished that warwinka match as it may have shortened his career

 

[Deleted member 307496]

Maybe nothing is wrong with Nadal. Maybe the field caught up with him! Just like how it did with Federer in 2010/2011!

Not only that, Nadal is playing better than ever. He's at his absolute best today, he just keeps improving.

People say he was at his peak on clay in 2008, yet forget that he was even better in 2012. In 2015 he played at the same level, it's just that the game moved on.

 

[West Coast Ace]

His shots don't even sound the same when he hits them anymore.

Sure, kid. No credit to the opponents. This Revisionist History that he was some kind of super-being who could run down every shot is just hysterical.

4th option: the locker room has figured out how to beat him. He coughs up a short ball - you attack. He hit plenty of balls throughout his career with too much top that fell short - the players just didn't take advantage.

 

[JRAJ1988]

With what the OP has said, is there a way back for Nadal? What does he have to do to get back in contention for Masters/Slams?

Time to dump Toni? Hire Carlos Moya maybe?

 

[MichaelNadal]

Sure, kid. No credit to the opponents. This Revisionist History that he was some kind of super-being who could run down every shot is just hysterical.

4th option: the locker room has figured out how to beat him. He coughs up a short ball - you attack. He hit plenty of balls throughout his career with too much top that fell short - the players just didn't take advantage.

If it wasn't so blatantly obvious Nadal has declined, this post might actually have been good trolling. Tired, lame, weak. Save it for someone who trashes Federer and don't come for me just bc Nadal is in my username and he's kept you from sleeping for too many nights, junior.

 

[Deleted member 512391]

Not only that, Nadal is playing better than ever. He's at his absolute best today, he just keeps improving.

People say he was at his peak on clay in 2008, yet forget that he was even better in 2012. In 2015 he played at the same level, it's just that the game moved on.

It may sound silly, but you could make an argument that his performances on clay* in 2012 were slightly better than in 2008.

In 2012, he won Monte Carlo, Barcelona, Rome and Roland Garros with the loss of one set. That's just ridiculous. And if had not been for the rain in the Roland Garros final, he would have straight-setted Djokovic, because he had been much superior player until the court became muddy at the start of the third set.

In 2008, he played exceptionally well at Roland Garros, but hadn't been that convincing in other tournaments. Although he won Monte Carlo and Barcelona with the loss of one set as well, the only reason he won that Hamburg final is because Federer choked so badly. And he also lost to Ferrero in his first match in Rome.

To me, his 2012 on clay looks at least as impressive as his 2008.

* Madrid was played on the famous blue clay that year.

 

[antonico]

Not only that, Nadal is playing better than ever. He's at his absolute best today, he just keeps improving.

People say he was at his peak on clay in 2008, yet forget that he was even better in 2012. In 2015 he played at the same level, it's just that the game moved on.

Nadal's best year on clay was 2010. He won Monte Carlo that year losing only 14 games in 5 matches. He skipped Barcelona that year, but added Madrid and Rome, and went through Roland Garros without losing a set in his seven matches there. So he won every clay event he played in 2010. When you add in he won Wimbledon and the US Open that year, it was his career year, and certainly his career year on clay. The most remarkable thing was that he went through the 3 Majors he won in 2010 losing only 6 sets in 21 matches, and five of those sets lost were at Wimbledon.

And, how has "...the game moved on", exactly? When I look at the Top 10 guys today, I see six of them who were there 3 years ago. So "the game" hasn't "moved on" from the other guys at the top who've been there for years. I will say it's moved past Nadal, but not the tour as a whole. And there is no argument to make that he's better in 2015 than before. The losses he's had to players in 2015 are not beating up the rest of the Top 10 guys. Djokovic, Murray and Federer have not been beaten by guys like Michael Berrer, Dustin Brown - both ranked outside the Top 100. Much less have the Top 3 lost to guys like Verdasco and Fognini - and Nadal has lost to all of them this year. The game hasn't "moved on". Nadal has moved down. Unequivocally.