What separates the world #1 tennis player from the #250 one?

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Dylan Wright
( coach and 15+ years of experience as a high level player )

What separates the world’s #1 tennis player from the #250 one? Does the #1 player just have slightly less unforced errors, slightly faster serve, etc., that accumulate to make him/her more likely to win a 5 set match, or is he/she just better?


Well to start, I’ve played some of the guys who have reached around that #300 level. They’re really damn good. But they don’t touch the top guys. We’re talking light years away.
I can grace the court with some of those guys and not look silly; I suspect Djokovic would pants me, metaphorically speaking. (To my defense, I’m not training for competition, so I’m going to give myself a reprieve on that one.)
It’s not that they’re going to lose 0 and 0 every time. But as far as the level is concerned, light years. Bear in mind that the higher the level the more subtle differences in understanding mean. Basically, little things become very big things. But attaining the little things also becomes radically more difficult. It’s very difficult to find the things that almost nobody even realizes are there, present, evident — but only if you come at it from a particular place — a place of truth. That level of clarity is hard to come by.
Essentially, we’re talking about the difference in that last one percent. The #250 guy knows 99% of all tennis understanding, but the #1 guy is at around 99.8%. There are things in the #250 guy’s game that aren’t clear or fully understood, that in crucial moments lead to either physical breakdowns or mental doubt. And make no mistake, when there’s a misunderstanding, you are going to have doubts at some point, at some level. You are going to meet with a wall somewhere along the way, and then you are going to remember the experience of running into that wall, and then you are going to understand fear.
That’s the last thing you want as a competitor. All you want to understand in the significant moments is the sensation of confidence, that you left no stone unturned and that there is no oversight anywhere in your game. It’s so freaking clear to you that it’s already decided, that you’re simply the better player, and that all you have to do is let unfold what you’ve already built and created.
That 0.8% is the difference between making mega-millions and losing money chasing a dream. At #250, you’re one or two breakthroughs/epiphanies away from making a good living at it, but you’re like 100 epiphanies away from being world #1.
As far as what you were asking, there’s not all that much physical difference. But it’s a big enough difference to where the #1 guy would be able to exploit it without fault 100 out of 100 times against the #250 guy. They may play some 1 or 2 break sets, but never will it be in doubt who is going to win. Seriously. Never. The #1 guy will know the entire time that he knows things that the #250 guy simply does not, and he will never wane in his ability to exploit it.
The Key Differentiating Factors — What Makes Up That 0.8%?
There may be a difference in the physical abilities depending on who you’re talking about. That difference comes in foot speed, foot-eye, and quickness more than anything else. But this isn’t necessarily the case. I’ve seen guys who were distinctly better athletes than Djokovic, with just as much foot-eye skills and quickness, who never even got to #250. So that’s not the major difference.
There’s a distinct difference in knowledge between the #1 guy and the #250 guy. When I say knowledge, I mean knowledge on how to hit the ball. But then attaining this knowledge takes a mental aptitude that few possess. So we’re talking about knowledge, and we’re talking about an aptitude that enables them to attain said knowledge.
The #1 guy knows exactly how to hit a forehand. He knows all of the fundamentals, and then he knows all of the refinements. He knows all of the tricks that made it easy for him to learn the fundamentals and make the refinements.
He just knows more about the game, and that knowledge manifests into a cleaner, more effective game. He knows more partly because of coaching and partly because of an otherworldly level of self-awareness — always in tune with how it feels in the body hitting a ball, always in tune with how that feel impacts the shot’s result. Using this self-awareness to keep himself in line, physically when talking about technique, tactically when in a match, and emotionally when talking about life. His knowledge base develops surreptitiously through minor insights, that arise out of a solid conceptual understanding of the game’s fundamentals, over the course of his entire career starting at age 5. There is a certain amount of right-place-right-time involved in being the very best.
The fundamentals were instilled in him early on, and he grew up within the proper foundation from close to day one. The #1 guy never had to do any major technical overhauls, like Ryan Harrison on his forehand for example. The #250 guy has probably had to make relatively major technical adjustments later in development. It may seem like they’ve been able to make the adjustments successfully, but they don’t have the same amount of reps under pressure that the #1 guy has. And thus, they don't have the same level of trust and confidence.
What this means is that the feel of a true forehand or backhand or serve is the only feel the #1 guy knows. The experience of playing tennis is a truly unconscious experience for the #1 guy. It’s all feel. He doesn’t know the feel of the forehand if it were to deviate sideways this way or that way; physically, tangibly, he only knows the correct feel. He is blissfully oblivious to all of the other bad habits and moves the rest of us make. It’s hard to explain how huge an advantage this is when faced with near-overwhelming adversity. To only know one pure thing. To be unconscious to how it can go wrong and having no understanding of the feel of it going wrong in a particular way. The #250 guy may not even know the feel for a true forehand or backhand or serve. And if they do, it’s certainly not engrained to the extent that it is for the #1 guy.
For the #1 guy, just about everything from day one developed within a context of tennis truth. This is rarely the case for the #250 guy, who probably understands the feel of how shots can go awry intimately.
The feel that the proper tennis fundamentals produce is so deeply, deeply engrained to muscle memory for the #1 guy. It is branded into his brain, and that branding emanates through every cell in his body. There is no left over re-wirings from former bad habits for him to accidentally fall back into. He never instilled any bad habits into muscle memory to begin with.
All of this means that the #1 guy has an easier time playing tennis. Tennis is easier for the #1 guy than it is for the #250 guy. Hitting specific spots, with a specific amount of spin and power, is easier for the #1 guy. And easier means more consistent. More consistent means more confident. More confident means much, much harder to beat.
This all sounds a bit romanticized, but it is in fact quite practical. Right coach, with the right knowledge and understanding. Right player, with the right mind and aptitude and physical ability. Right family life, that enables the balance in the player necessary to develop a keen and necessary level of self-awareness, to continue to just play a game when others start trying to forge careers out of it. To keep it a game.
The #250 guy was missing something in their development. Maybe his childhood coach had some misunderstandings about the tennis fundamentals that she passed along to the player. Maybe his parents had issues when he was a little kid, and he wasn’t able to be attune enough and have the realizations necessary to develop a great tennis game.
Whatever the reason, the mental and physical aspects are invariably intertwined. The one tends to go with the other. Because of a greater understanding of the game, the top guy has an easier time playing the game than the #250 guy. And the difference in tennis effectiveness between the two is significant.
 
I think honestly the biggest difference is athleticism.

Yeah occasionally you have a great athlete who lacks technique, tactics or mental stuff (monfils) but for the most part the top yguys have great technique with all facets of top shelf athleticsm (hitting power, speed, agility, balance..)

If you look at the lower ranked atp players they usually lack one or both athletic components (either they have hitting power but lack speed and agility like a Sam groth type or they have foot speed but lack top end hitting power).

Guys with great hitting power, foot speed and endurance are rare because usually harder hitters tend to be heavier and slower so generating ton of power with a thin body like Novak or fed is hard but it is easy if you are built like groth but that makes you slow
 
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sureshs

Bionic Poster
If the article is true, then why do #1s still have a first serve percentage of only 60%? What happens to all their feel and no ingrained bad habits?
 

Dragy

Legend
If the article is true, then why do #1s still have a first serve percentage of only 60%? What happens to all their feel and no ingrained bad habits?
With that serve percentage you bring up in several threads, the reply is "because they choose to". They choose to go for particular level of risk, particular margins for error which result in number of free points and number of second serves they are mostly ok with. If you keep in mind you are 100% safe winning around 70% of balls on your serve, you see that 30-40% missed first serves are absolutely ok.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
With that serve percentage you bring up in several threads, the reply is "because they choose to". They choose to go for particular level of risk, particular margins for error which result in number of free points and number of second serves they are mostly ok with. If you keep in mind you are 100% safe winning around 70% of balls on your serve, you see that 30-40% missed first serves are absolutely ok.

Is that conscious? They just seem to always try to hit the first serve the same way (except for direction of course) and 40% of the time they fail. Doesn't gel with the kind of god-like qualities attributed to them in the article.

I also remember how much Federer struggled on the backhand against Nadal's topspin till he switched to a bigger racket. The pattern was totally predictable. Nadal would pound his backhand, Federer would spend all his energy getting it across, and then Nadal would pummel the forehand. Federer made many adjustments, including going from slicing most of the time to topspin, and then the bigger frame. The article makes it seem that the pros need to make very few adjustments.
 

Dragy

Legend
The article makes it seem that the pros need to make very few adjustments.
I get it in a way that top pros know most of the adjustments required to beat other players and can do them, rather than don’t need adjustments. And in line with that it’s quite possible that they may face shots/opponents they fail to adjust to. Just that this happens extremely rarely for world best players.

PS I’m not going to take that article as dogma, but the point of view is interesting.
 

PrinceMoron

Legend
Watch SLO mo of Ednerg volley and you will get an idea of the balance and footwork needed.

I can hit picture perfect ground stokes if I am just taking a step but it all goes to sh@t if I have to move.

I don’t have much in reserve so can’t get an extra 20kph on the serve when needed.

end of the day most people I play are never going to beat me, but if I step up a level I am never going to trouble anyone. What looks solid in the leagues I play just falls to pieces and I wouldn’t know where to start to make an impression on their game. Trying harder just makes things worse.

even just hitting shots you own and nothing else won’t ding a better player’s game.

I played in a competition where you could win a car, every year for 6 years and only won one match.

When the big guns come out to play you realise the gulf between you and the next level.

you need some massive weapon to beat top players or you can’t trouble them at all

One odd thing is that players just outside the top 100 close the gap with the best players when they get older. I know players who were super consistent just outside top 100 but only ever took the odd set off top 10 players but now win everything in seniors tennis and look as good or better than them. You could say the top player basically retired and don’t need the money but I think they slow down a lot and lose whatever separated them form the pack.
 

RyanRF

Professional
The #250 player is gonna have to give lessons to pay the bills after he retires from the tour :cool:
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
I think that injuries, slight variances in technique that lead to lesser errors under pressure and self-confidence are key differentiators between the top-ranked pros and the guys who are #100-250 in the world.

- Injuries have a huge impact on the careers of very promising stars. If they have a serious injury or two early in their career, they will struggle mentally and financially to ever get to the top echelon where they can then hire a team of coaches and fitness trainers to travel with them which is essential to be a fixture within the top 30.
- The Big 3 have almost perfect technique on all their shots and have improved the shots where they had minor issues. So, they don’t miss shots under pressure against lesser players. If you look at the younger players, no one has textbook technique on all their shots without weaknesses and that’s why they are more inconsistent especially over a 2-week Slam. The closer you are to textbook shots, the less things can fall apart under pressure.
- The actual game of the top 250 players on tour doesn’t have too much variance and it is confidence and self-belief that decides who wins close matches and moves up in rankings. You can’t get confident if you don’t win early in your career and you don’t win consistently unless you are very confident with a lot of self-belief. So, players who don’t move into the top 100 quickly in their career due to injuries or otherwise probably find it tough to ever feel like they belong at the top and should beat higher ranked players which is then self-limiting on the highest rankings they can achieve. Once you start thinking you are a journeyman on tour, you typically will always be a journeyman.

I have watched more than 30-40 pro tournaments in person from top events like Indian Wells to challenger/futures events. I have always believed that if you don’t know who is the higher seeded player in a match, it is very hard to tell just by watching their early games who should and will win a match. But, the higher ranked player or the one who has a big lead in head-head record wins a huge majority of matches like clockwork including just about all the close sets. So, I think that mental edge where a player believes they should win the match right from the start because they think they are better becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and the lower seeded player rarely plays well on big points.

It is true at the rec level too where self-confident players win a lot along with those who have the technique to make less errors while hitting at the pace/spin suitable for their level. As the level goes up, the pace/spin goes up, but the more consistent players still win the big points typically.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
The difference between hitting a bullseye and missing the target altogether is a tiny difference in aim when viewed at the source but gets bigger and bigger the further the target is.

That's how it is for me to try and judge the #250 with someone at the top: if I didn't know either player and was asked to figure out who was going to crush whom, I probably wouldn't be able to tell. The determining factors are too subtle for me to observe.
 
Whoever wrote the OP is very verbose, but his main premise, that the top players never developed bad habits, is wrong. Djokovic and Nadal have made major improvements to their serves, Federer to his backhand, etc. IMO the answer is that just like a 5.0 is better than a 4.5, a player who's been ranked #1 is simply better than a player ranked #250. The areas where he's better can differ across #1s (with Djokovic it's his unprecedented court coverage and lack of weaknesses, with Nadal it's his ultra-heavy forehand and ability to play every point at 100% intensity, and with Federer it's his incredible footwork and hand-eye coordination), but there's no single magic bullet to being a #1.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
Whoever wrote the OP is very verbose, but his main premise, that the top players never developed bad habits, is wrong. Djokovic and Nadal have made major improvements to their serves, Federer to his backhand, etc. IMO the answer is that just like a 5.0 is better than a 4.5, a player who's been ranked #1 is simply better than a player ranked #250. The areas where he's better can differ across #1s (with Djokovic it's his unprecedented court coverage and lack of weaknesses, with Nadal it's his ultra-heavy forehand and ability to play every point at 100% intensity, and with Federer it's his incredible footwork and hand-eye coordination), but there's no single magic bullet to being a #1.


Yeah sounded like some BS coach speak to me. Sometimes a guy might be faster - sometimes he might have a better serve - sometimes another guy might be technically better or a better student of the game..etc etc. Could be any number of reasons why someone is better then another.. Just like at any other level..
 

AnyPUG

Hall of Fame
Whoever wrote the OP is very verbose, but his main premise, that the top players never developed bad habits, is wrong. Djokovic and Nadal have made major improvements to their serves, Federer to his backhand, etc. IMO the answer is that just like a 5.0 is better than a 4.5, a player who's been ranked #1 is simply better than a player ranked #250. The areas where he's better can differ across #1s (with Djokovic it's his unprecedented court coverage and lack of weaknesses, with Nadal it's his ultra-heavy forehand and ability to play every point at 100% intensity, and with Federer it's his incredible footwork and hand-eye coordination), but there's no single magic bullet to being a #1.

I think the point of the OP is that the top players never developed bad habits in their top weapons that made them 0.0001 percenters from the rest of the players they trained with when young. (it's not just tennis, in any area of pursuit in life/business/profession - the very top guys have something very very special that separated them from everybody else and they didn't have to rebuild it in the middle to reach the top).
Djokovic and Nadal tweaked their serves - but it's not the serves that made them champions (another 100+ players have or had better serves than them). Or it's not Fed's backhand that took him to the top.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Usually the top guys have something that they are better than anyone else at or even a couple things.
Federer's footwork and touch were always the best. Nadal's FH spin was always the best and at one point his speed was as well. Djokovic's court coverage and Groundstroke depth are unparalleled. Sampras had the best serve in the game. Agassi had the best Return of serve.

These guys always had something that was top notch and then made everything else excellent as well.
 

Harry_Wild

G.O.A.T.
It is all mental, desire to win a point after point! Go the distance! Believe in your abilities that you can win! They top 5 fight for every point, never give up! It all about providing to themselves they are great tennis players! RF, Rafa, Djokovic give credit to their opponent when the loose a match; saying he was the better player today!
 
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sureshs

Bionic Poster
Looks like the article was written with Fedalovic in mind, hence the god-like attributes.

Current #3 is Medvedev. Does he really fit the description in the article?
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
Forget #250. Players outside the top 5 have asked this question when the big 3 were tops in the rankings.

One of the players who was able to break through in that time was Wawrinka. If you look at him as a guide to see what it would take, then no major weaknesses, one outstanding weapon, and not playing it safe under pressure woul be the main takeaways.
 

pencilcheck

Hall of Fame
I believe the OP article is not totally wrong but it is not totally true. What may be the winning "feel" 10 years ago, would not be the right "feel" 10 years later. Esp when the tennis court changes, ball changes, racquet technology changes, string changes your body and age changes. That why no matter what ranking you are, you always have to hit the court and hit. There is no slacking off just because you get natural feel.

Tennis is a very counter intuitive game, nothing in this game is intuitive.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
I heard Federer say he had figured out after a few years on the tour that talent wouldn’t be enough seeing how hard other players were working and he also started to put all the necessary effort into getting better.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
@Curious
Isn’t this coach stating the opposite of your philosophy to improving in tennis? He is saying that the sooner you develop a solid foundation of textbook strokes and keep practicing with the same form, your game will hold up under pressure and stress much better.

You on the other hand seem to have fun copying the shots of different pros every other week, constantly changing your technique with every new trendy fad you see online or on this forum and trying to understand the biomechanical theory of every shot ad nauseum. If you keep changing your strokes all the time and delay the development of a solid foundation for years like you seem to be doing, do you think your shots will hold up under pressure in a close match against opponents who have been hitting the same way since they were coached as kids? Or do you avoid those kind of ex-junior players and play only adult hackers who also constantly change their technique?
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
@Curious
Isn’t this coach stating the opposite of your philosophy to improving in tennis? He is saying that the sooner you develop a solid foundation of textbook strokes and keep practicing with the same form, your game will hold up under pressure and stress much better.

You on the other hand seem to have fun copying the shots of different pros every other week, constantly changing your technique with every new trendy fad you see online or on this forum and trying to understand the biomechanical theory of every shot ad nauseum. If you keep changing your strokes all the time and delay the development of a solid foundation for years like you seem to be doing, do you think your shots will hold up under pressure in a close match against opponents who have been hitting the same way since they were coached as kids? Or do you avoid those kind of ex-junior players and play only adult hackers who also constantly change their technique?
I know I’m in a messy place. Actually I’m thinking of switching from SW grip forehand back to Eastern tonight!
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
I know I’m in a messy place. Actually I’m thinking of switching from SW grip forehand back to Eastern tonight!
Your extensive research of different pros and online coaching lessons should have affirmed to you by now that you can hit as well as a pro with any grip, any takeback style, any finish etc. as many players have made it to the pro level with different styles. Good footwork, proper spacing, a swing that generates a lot of topspin and a lot of repetition is what produces a good player typically. Once you have somewhat of a textbook swing (Eastern/SW/Western grip, ATP/WTA takeback, Open/Closed stance, WW or Regular finish) that starts low and finishes high to generate spin, all you need is a lot of repetition doing the same thing over and over again to get the muscle memory to be consistent. But, if you keep changing your grip and form, you will never have enough repetition to develop the muscle memory to feel confident in your swing.

Thats why you never find good players constantly changing every aspect of their basic technique or changing their racquet/strings all the time. What they do is go out and practice every day for hours, however good they are and this is what top juniors do also - that’s the example to follow and not their exact grip or swing. Most good players can barely explain what their grip or technique style is and they don’t think about it at all when they are playing - they just go out every day and hit the same way they’ve been hitting since they were a kid.
 

FatHead250

Professional
Bunch of mystical f***ing nonsense. Federer, Nadal and Djokovic are better athletes. Better athletes. Quicker, more explosive, more relaxed. They've trained more. Federer, Nadal and Djokovic live with tennis, they're consumed by it; unlike some other tennis athletes. That's why they win.

A lot of other people have the passion to think about tennis 24/7, but they dont have athletic tennis training, so they dont get to their level. Nadal for example is an amazing football player. What other player has the same level of athletic ability?
 
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sureshs

Bionic Poster
Bunch of mystical f***ing nonsense. Federer, Nadal and Djokovic are better athletes. Better athletes. Quicker, more explosive, more relaxed. They've trained more. Federer, Nadal and Djokovic live with tennis, they're consumed by it; unlike some other tennis athletes. That's why they win.

A lot of other people have the passion to think about tennis 24/7, but they dont have athletic tennis training, so they dont get to their level.

I agree. Most of these mystical sounding arguments boil down to a lack of saying something precise.
 

Hit 'em clean

Semi-Pro
Many years ago I was at Van DerMeer and was chatting up a few of the teaching pros that were there. These guys help train and hit with up an comers and current pros on a regular basis and it was very interesting to hear them talk about the differences. Being top 250 in the world to them was not even in the same country as being in the top ten. They said getting into the top 100 was unreal... from there the top 50... then top 30, top 20... top 10 are out of their minds good. Within the top 10 they said there could be another 3-4 more jumps in level of play depending on the players at that time. But they way they talked about it... it was like a 5.0 playing 4.5 kind of level jump. Yeah you can play with the higher level guy and maybe on a really good day have a chance to beat them, but it's very unlikely.

At the time an American was there training who was in the top 50 (can't really remember his name). But the things they talked about were never how hard someone could hit, but rather the mental game and confidence. It was also the ability of players to put themselves in high percentage plays where they could be confident and make the opponent feel pressure. Yes, sometimes athleticism provides a player a slight edge, but ultimately the top players have an innate ability to make their opponents feel pressure... to squeeze the court and make it feel smaller than it is. If you can make your opponent feel you... feel pressure... you have a big advantage. The final aspect was the ability of the top players to handle pressure and the will to win. Fed, Nadal, and Djokovic... all the past champs... had a unbelievable ability to play under immense pressure and get better. That is one of the rarest things you can have. And there is no substitute for a crazy off the charts will to win.

Lots of guys on tour are fast, hit hard, have unbelievable balance and some have that in amounts that separate them... but will to win, handling pressure, and knowing how to create pressure are things that really separate the top guys.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Many years ago I was at Van DerMeer and was chatting up a few of the teaching pros that were there. These guys help train and hit with up an comers and current pros on a regular basis and it was very interesting to hear them talk about the differences. Being top 250 in the world to them was not even in the same country as being in the top ten. They said getting into the top 100 was unreal... from there the top 50... then top 30, top 20... top 10 are out of their minds good. Within the top 10 they said there could be another 3-4 more jumps in level of play depending on the players at that time. But they way they talked about it... it was like a 5.0 playing 4.5 kind of level jump. Yeah you can play with the higher level guy and maybe on a really good day have a chance to beat them, but it's very unlikely.

At the time an American was there training who was in the top 50 (can't really remember his name). But the things they talked about were never how hard someone could hit, but rather the mental game and confidence. It was also the ability of players to put themselves in high percentage plays where they could be confident and make the opponent feel pressure. Yes, sometimes athleticism provides a player a slight edge, but ultimately the top players have an innate ability to make their opponents feel pressure... to squeeze the court and make it feel smaller than it is. If you can make your opponent feel you... feel pressure... you have a big advantage. The final aspect was the ability of the top players to handle pressure and the will to win. Fed, Nadal, and Djokovic... all the past champs... had a unbelievable ability to play under immense pressure and get better. That is one of the rarest things you can have. And there is no substitute for a crazy off the charts will to win.

Lots of guys on tour are fast, hit hard, have unbelievable balance and some have that in amounts that separate them... but will to win, handling pressure, and knowing how to create pressure are things that really separate the top guys.

"but ultimately the top players have an innate ability to make their opponents feel pressure... to squeeze the court and make it feel smaller than it is."

You make it sound as if it is a mystical thing, just like the OP. It may be, but what use is it if it cannot be made more precise? How can I squeeze the court?

And again I notice that Fedalovic is the standard. What about current #3 Medvedev? Does he also possess the same qualities? After all, he is #3.

What about current WTA #1 Ashley Barty? Same mystical description? Or does it apply only to the men?
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
Practice anyone?

250 - 1; 249 spot down in the rankings! Big difference in earnings, sponsorship and fame!


Absolutely loved that video. Thanks for posting.

RBA also has a very early prep just like the rec guy mentioned on a different thread here.
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
It is not just athleticism. A lot of players are incredibly athletic. Plus they are all tennis athletic if that is the argument. Else they wouldn’t be high level pros.

It is a combination of athleticism and skills and then that extra something that cannot quite be described. Players like Fed, Nadal and Djoker were considered prodigies long before they went more all in with their fitness and other things. When Sampras was very young the people watching him convinced his dad to pay for his son to get better coaching because they felt there was something special about him

The truly great have that extra something that immediately catches the eye and cannot be easily quantified. Then other things like mental toughness and work ethic to fully realize that potential come in. However there will be many in the top 250 who might have the work ethic but never had that extra something that captured the attention of those who watched them long before they become stars.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
It is not just athleticism. A lot of players are incredibly athletic. Plus they are all tennis athletic if that is the argument. Else they wouldn’t be high level pros.

It is a combination of athleticism and skills and then that extra something that cannot quite be described. Players like Fed, Nadal and Djoker were considered prodigies long before they went more all in with their fitness and other things. When Sampras was very young the people watching him convinced his dad to pay for his son to get better coaching because they felt there was something special about him

The truly great have that extra something that immediately catches the eye and cannot be easily quantified. Then other things like mental toughness and work ethic to fully realize that potential come in. However there will be many in the top 250 who might have the work ethic but never had that extra something that captured the attention of those who watched them long before they become stars.

What about the previous and present people in top 3 who are not FedalovicWilliams? Do they also have that "extra something?"

Fedalovic trio is a rare thing, something like Phelps or Bolt occurring thrice simultaneously. Probability of that is exceeding low. Sampras/Courier/Agassi/Chang were nowhere near this (and Sampras could never win the French). Only Rod Laver was of the same caliber and probably greater, because he played with a woodie.
 

Hit 'em clean

Semi-Pro
"but ultimately the top players have an innate ability to make their opponents feel pressure... to squeeze the court and make it feel smaller than it is."

You make it sound as if it is a mystical thing, just like the OP. It may be, but what use is it if it cannot be made more precise? How can I squeeze the court?

And again I notice that Fedalovic is the standard. What about current #3 Medvedev? Does he also possess the same qualities? After all, he is #3.

What about current WTA #1 Ashley Barty? Same mystical description? Or does it apply only to the men?
Fed, Nadal and Djoker are just a very good and easy to use example. Also, in my post... I was referencing a specific conversation I had with the Van DerMeer Pros after they had a training session with a top 50 male American (Grant something was his name, still can't remember it). It was obvious to me then... that even though they were referencing the men's game... it applies to all the top players at any given year... male or female. Those were the key things they seem to think separated the good from the great. Of course these things apply to Barty and Medvedev... I just reached for the easy most prominent example. Medvedev is brilliant in his ability to adjust his game, shot selection and court positioning... not just during a match, but within a point... to create pressure on his opponent.

Their conversation about the different levels in terms of top 100, 50, 30 and so on was specific to the men's tour. This convo happened like twenty years ago, but I still think it applies... I'm sure it's changed and continues do so. It mentioned it to illustrate that there are definite big jumps in levels of play among the pros... and they are all pretty aware of where those lines are... even if they might change a bit over time... year to year, etc. I'm sure the women's tour has the same thing, but this part was specifically about the men's tour during our conversation.

As to your comment regarding on the mystical... how is making an opponent feel pressure and/or being able to handle pressure mystical? You don't ever feel pressure when you play? You don't feel rushed during a point or don't feel like you're robbing your opponent of time, etc.? I also don't find what I said any more mystical than someone that has the god given ability to be faster, stronger, etc. than someone else. You can improve any of these things, but there are limits for all of us at physical and yes... a mental level. I've seen players that are better at this than others.

There are so many things we can do to improve our games that have nothing to do with stroke mechanics, physical speed, power, etc. Improving your ability to understand what's happening on the court, especially during the point can pay just as big of a dividend as learning how to hit a big topspin forehand. Is it always easy to learn or teach... I don't know. The reason I can't answer that is because that it's not really taught very much... and if it is... not with the same intensity, depth and importance that is placed on learning to hit the ball. It hasn't been until the last 5-10 years or so, IMHO, that we've really started to see a lot of content about that part of tennis readily available and discussed with the tennis masses. Tennis magazine for years would give some articles about basic strategy... but most articles were on how hit the serve... how to serve and volley... how to hit the new big forehand... cuz that's what sells.

I like a lot of what Karue talks about on his My TennisHQ YouTube channel. He down plays mechanics a lot and talks about a lot of mental things and point play challenges we all experience. He talks about what he feels/experiences during a point and how he wants his opponent to feel... which drives his shot selection choices. It really makes sense to me and isn't mystical. It reminded me a lot of what those guys at Van DerMeer were talking about.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Let us face the reality: most pro players play reactively and don't have much shot tolerance. They are impatient and make a lot of silly mistakes. The best athletes don't play tennis. Put all this together, and a guy who can gather himself up will look like he is way beyond the others.
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
What about the previous and present people in top 3 who are not FedalovicWilliams? Do they also have that "extra something?"

Fedalovic trio is a rare thing, something like Phelps or Bolt occurring thrice simultaneously. Probability of that is exceeding low. Sampras/Courier/Agassi/Chang were nowhere near this (and Sampras could never win the French). Only Rod Laver was of the same caliber and probably greater, because he played with a woodie.

You are mixing up number of titles with something extra that the great ones had that caught the eyes of those who watched them very early in their lives.

Yes Sampras,Agassi, Chang and Courier all had that. As I said that is the base. Then other things such as mental toughness, staying injury free, and work ethic come into play.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
You are mixing up number of titles with something extra that the great ones had that caught the eyes of those who watched them very early in their lives.

Or it could be that others also caught the eye at a very early age but you never heard of them making it to the top (Donald Young for example). Tennis is full of anecdotes told and exaggerated in hindsight once someone becomes famous.
 

AnyPUG

Hall of Fame
The verbose OP says 3 things each.

1 The #1 guy knows how to hit the ball better than the rest with the right amount of pace and spin.
2 The #1 guy knows the game fundamentals (to be in right place at the right time) better than the rest.
3 The #250 guy only knows 99% instead of 99.8% about tennis shots and fundamentals.

How was that made possible?
1 The #1 guy had a great coach who taught him the fundamentals when the player was young, and had a great childhood with healthy parental support.
2 The #1 guy didn't have to re-discover or overhaul his major part of the game after childhood.
3 The #250 guy was missing something in his development that number #1 guy had.

It's NOT specific athletic ability, speed or any other physical ability - it's all about knowledge that makes them overcome physical limitations to gain confidence and achieve major breakthrough!
(It's not my opinion, but my understanding of what OP talks about)
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
Or it could be that others also caught the eye at a very early age but you never heard of them making it to the top (Donald Young for example). Tennis is full of anecdotes told and exaggerated in hindsight once someone becomes famous.

Again they had that base of having that extra something Then other things come into play which affect whether they realize the potential accorded by that base . Height for eg with Chang. Work ethic with Gasquet and Agassi. But that extra something is the base.

One of the guys who has made a nice chunk of money by selling the myth that if he could crack into the top 5 then anyone can, is Brad Gilbert. But he was an excellent player. If you question folks who watched him in his formative years,, I am sure the consensus would be that he had something special about him.
 

sgrd0q

New User
Also, Edberg’s backhand was a major liability in his junior years. He then concentrated on the backhand for a number of years during practice and ended up having one of the best backhands. Complete overhaul.
Pete switched from a 2 handed BH to a 1 handed one in his teens.
 

Harry_Wild

G.O.A.T.
rafael-nadal-nikeusopen11.jpg
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
One of the guys who has made a nice chunk of money by selling the myth that if he could crack into the top 5 then anyone can, is Brad Gilbert.

Winning Ugly* [which really should be titled *Winning Intelligently* but that's not as edgy even though it's more descriptive] explained a lot of sensible ways to approach the game. I didn't get the vibe about the top 5.

But he was an excellent player. If you question folks who watched him in his formative years,, I am sure the consensus would be that he had something special about him.

But you could probably find people who thought the same thing about anyone who turned pro. Did Gilbert stand out that much more from his peers than the others who never cracked the top 100? Sure, in hindsight people could say that. But in foresight?
 

GuyClinch

Legend
Bunch of mystical f***ing nonsense. Federer, Nadal and Djokovic are better athletes. Better athletes. Quicker, more explosive, more relaxed. They've trained more. Federer, Nadal and Djokovic live with tennis, they're consumed by it; unlike some other tennis athletes. That's why they win.

A lot of other people have the passion to think about tennis 24/7, but they dont have athletic tennis training, so they dont get to their level. Nadal for example is an amazing football player. What other player has the same level of athletic ability?

This. Athletes love it when they get someone who toots their horn - that they win because they have more dedication - or they worked harder - or even better they are smarter.

But the formula is early exposure to good training + very high level of natural athleticism + good dedication to the game. Fed at least has the guts to admit he was a superior athlete growing up.. The problem with god given talent is that people don't respect it like hard work or intelligence. So coaches and such like to spin it - scores them points with players and the fans.

Michael Phelps is both quite tall and double jointed - has the perfect body type to swim. Are there some other guys built like him who never went into swimming - sure. But god given talent is a big part of it..

Why Michael Phelps Has the Perfect Body for Swimming - Biography

And FWIW while the best athletes in America don't go into tennis - there are plenty of guys in some of the other countries who do. Because tennis is so individual you have millions of other people competing for those spots. Novak, Fed and Nadal are all exceptional athletes. US loses all its athletes to other sports. Drew Brees, Gordon Hayward and now Mac Jones all had pro potential in tennis. But they went into football and basketball (Hayward).
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
Winning Ugly* [which really should be titled *Winning Intelligently* but that's not as edgy even though it's more descriptive] explained a lot of sensible ways to approach the game. I didn't get the vibe about the top 5.



But you could probably find people who thought the same thing about anyone who turned pro. Did Gilbert stand out that much more from his peers than the others who never cracked the top 100? Sure, in hindsight people could say that. But in foresight?


I don’t think anyone can honestly say that any player can be a top 5 just watching them at a young age. Maybe all pros who crack the top 100 have the xfactor from a young age. As I said there are other factors such as height, mental toughness, work ethic, competetive fire, injuries, .. etc that come into play. Along with an expectation of growth in their games.

What I am saying though is that these folks are blessed to have something special that is difficult to quantify and does give them an inherent advantage that others who might put the same sweat equity won’t have. Someone here talked about Courier blowing many other teens in some reaction time test. I asked RogerRoger here why he felt his son who was 6’4” and a high level junior who could get a tennis scholarship could not make it as a pro. He mentioned the same thing about some reaction time and coaches who have seen folks become high level pros knowing who have it and who don’t.
 
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