Where does Barty rank all time in the open era?

tennisfan911

New User
Where would you put Barty against all the greats of the open era? Only 3 grand slam titles, but 121 weeks at world no 1, more than names like Davenport, Cawley, Capriati, Henin, Sharapova , Clijsters, V.Williams. How many of those names would you put over Barty?
 

buscemi

Hall of Fame
-Davenport is ahead of her with 4 YE#1 and much better competition beaten in her three Major victories.

-Goolagong has 7 Majors and is well ahead of her.

-Capriati is ahead based on her 3 Majors coming against much better competition.

-Henin with 7 Majors is way ahead.

-Sharapova with 5 Majors is easily ahead (ignoring doping issues).

-Venus with 7 Majors is well ahead.

Basically, Capriati is the only question mark. But compare who they beat to win their Majors:

Capriati:
-2001 Australian Open: beat Seles/Davenport/Hingis in QF/SF/F
-2001 French Open: beat Serena/Hingis/Clijsters in QF/SF/F
-2002 Australian Open: beat Mauresmo/Clijsters/Hingis in QF/SF/F

Barty:
-2019 French Open: beat Keys/Animisova/Vondroušová in QF/SF/F
-2021 Wimbledon: beat Tomljanović/Kerber/Plíšková in QF/S/F
-2022 Australian Open: beat Pegula/Keys/Collins QF/SF/F

That's like night and day in terms of quality of opponents in money rounds of Majors.
 
Last edited:

boredone3456

G.O.A.T.
The only 3 slam winner that MAYBE I would put Barty over in a GOAT ranking is Capriati....and even then its close.

Barty won 3 of the 4 majors vs 2 of the 4 for Capriati. Capriati however successfully defended a major.

Barty has more titles (barely) at 15 compared to 14 for Capriati. Capriati however has made more overall finals.

Barty also won more WTA 1000 level tournaments (Miami twice and Cincy) vs Capriati winning Rome. Capriati also won Charleston when it was a tier 1 event however we want to take that.

Barty also has way more weeks at number 1...however Capriati arguably faced a tougher field.

Capriati also won Olympic gold (epic win over Graf)....Barty was able to win the tour finals.

Its close between those 2. All the others I'd probably place over her including Osaka (although maybe there one could try and make a case...but its not much)
 

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
How do you come to the Osaka > Barty conclusion
Higher peak level imo, beat Serena multiple times in Slams and Kvitova/Azarenka are of a higher quality than Barty’s best wins.

Not at all consistent and struggled year round but when she was on she hit a pretty close to ATG level on HC. Barty had more variety, better commitment to the game, and had a lot more to give when she retired… but I feel Osaka would be better equipped to face stronger competition, her Slams more bulletproof so to speak.
 

Steffi-forever

Hall of Fame
Barty had a 11-3 W-L record in 2020, and yet she has stay at #1 all 2020 and 2021!

Also she only has reached 4 slams SF, and 6 QF.
 
Last edited:

boredone3456

G.O.A.T.
Barty had a 11-3 W-L record in 2020, and yet she has stay at #1 all 2020 and 2021!

2020 you could quibble...Covid royally destroyed that year royally.

However in 2021 she won Wimbledon, The Miami Open, The Cincinnati open, as well as titles in Stuttgart and Yarra Valley. Also made the finals of Madrid. None of the other major winners that year had that level of success (I mean...that was the year that gave us Raducanu...). Osaka won the AO then imploded. Krejcikova...love her...but she was only able to win 1 other title besides the French. Barty earned it in 2021 relatively speaking.
 

Steffi-forever

Hall of Fame
2020 you could quibble...Covid royally destroyed that year royally.

However in 2021 she won Wimbledon, The Miami Open, The Cincinnati open, as well as titles in Stuttgart and Yarra Valley. Also made the finals of Madrid. None of the other major winners that year had that level of success (I mean...that was the year that gave us Raducanu...). Osaka won the AO then imploded. Krejcikova...love her...but she was only able to win 1 other title besides the French. Barty earned it in 2021 relatively speaking.
Yes she deserved her year- end at #1 in 2021, however she stay many weeks at #1 that year based on her 2020 year record. 11-3 W-L
 

boredone3456

G.O.A.T.
Yes she deserves her year- end at #1 in 2021, however she stay many weeks at #1 that year based on her 2020 year record. 11-3 W-L

Like I said, Covid. It destroyed travel and forced the cancellation of most tournaments or severely restricted the ones that did happen. EVERYONE'S rankings ended up hyper inflated. It was a mess of a year. Barty did benefit, but at the end of the day in 2021 she went out and proved she was #1 by winning titles and getting results. Something other players weren't doing.
 

Steffi-forever

Hall of Fame
Like I said, Covid. It destroyed travel and forced the cancellation of most tournaments or severely restricted the ones that did happen. EVERYONE'S rankings ended up hyper inflated. It was a mess of a year. Barty did benefit, but at the end of the day in 2021 she went out and proved she was #1 by winning titles and getting results. Something other players weren't doing.
Barty did benefit as she only finished 12th in the race in 2020:

12
23px-Flag_of_Australia_%28converted%29.svg.png
Ashleigh Barty (AUS)​
1,601
Steady
4

Also her slam results until she won Wimbledon in 2021 were:
2020 Australian Open SF
2020 US Open DNP
2020 Roland Garros DNP
2021 Australian Open QF
2021 Roland Garros 2nd Round
 
Obviously Graf, Court, Navratilova, Evert, Serena, King are way ahead. And that is even counting Court and King's Open Era career only, they still are far above.

Seles, Venus, Henin, Goolagong, are all far ahead as well. We are now up to 10 players already. These are 7 slam winners (Seles a 9 slam winner), so there is no discussion whatsoever against a 3 slam winner, regardless of 10 more weeks at #1 or whatever.

Sharapova has 5 slams and the Career Slam. No contest, she is ahead.

Hingis has 5 slams, more time at #1, 3 YE#1, a 3 slam year, a 3 repeat at the Australian Open, 2 YEC. Again no contest, ahead.

Davenport has 3 slams, like Barty, but 3 different ones like Barty too, but 55 career titles to Barty's 15. Played in a WAY stronger time for the womens game, if she played in any era other than her own peak coinciding with the Williams sisters which was the worst luck possible for her, as they are not only superior players (particularly Serena) but stylistically her ultimate worst match ups ever, even peaking jointly with Graf/Seles would have been far better for her. And still won as many slams, and almost quadruple the titles. By contrast as much as I like her, there are some eras Barty might win only 1 major (or even 0, but I will be generous and say she is talented enough she always manages to sneak 1 out, especialy as she probably plays longer if she still major less), and almost none she wins more than 3 except the exact one she played in, and choosing to play longer or not blowing that Aussie semi to Kenin. Both have a YEC but Davenport has an Olympic Gold as well. Yes Barty has 23 more weeks at #1, but Davenport has an extra YE#1, so that is a wash too. Some of Davenport's YE#1 are controversial, especialy 2001 when nobody considered her having even a case for best player or best year compared to people like Venus and Capriati that year, but a lot of Barty's time at #1 is Covid related and sort of silly, so that too is a wash. In short Davenport is easily ahead for the stronger era, and 55 titles to 15. Plus a ton more slam final, semi final, and quarter finals which I didn't even mention yet (7 slam finals to 3 just for starters).

Clijsters has 101 fewer weeks at #1 which is significant. However 1 more major, 1 more YEC, a legacy at the US Open where she won 3 straight times she played, 41 titles to only 15 for Barty, and a ton more slam final and semi final appearances (over twice as many of both) is enough for me to have her ahead. Anyway Barty's weeks at #1 are a bit asterisked by the Covid period as I already explained, and unlike Davenport's which is also inflated, Clijsters's is realistically deflated vs reality a bit. For instance she has only 20 weeks at #1, yet the WTA named her Player of the Year for both 2005 and 2010, and the ITF for 2005. Barty won the WTA twice and ITF twice, so almost no difference there. Without even factoring in Clijsters playing in a way tougher era, I would have Clijsters ahead personally as well.

We are now at 14.

Now onto Capriati. Both have 3 majors. Both have a similar low number of titles- 15 for Barty and 14 for Capriati. Barty has a lot more time at #1. Barty has a YEC which slightly beats Capriati's Olympic Gold. However Capriati has a ton more slam semis (13 to 4), a ton more slam quarters (23 to 6). Yes the huge difference is largely Barty's relatively short career, when she was a late bloomer to start with, but that was entirely her own choice. It is close but I think Capriati's much higher number of quality finishes in majors, which count for players with low slam counts, not just wins, and her longevity, unlikely comeback to greatness, and playing in a far tougher era her entire career put her ahead. Also worth noting 2 of Capriati's slam semi final losses- 2003 US Open semis vs Henin, 91 US Open semis vs Seles, are often referenced as 2 of the best matches in history, even though she lost. Both are still talked about today. The Henin-Capriati even has highlight reels done to music by numerous people on youtube. Austin and Shriver and Evert reference both matches all the time. She likely wins both if she won either match, both which she served for and had points to close out. Which was a bit of failure of nerve on her part both times, but nobody talks about any match of Barty's like that decades from now guaranteed, not even any of her slam wins. And I am a big Barty fan too, but being realitistic here.

The absolute highest she could ever be is 16th behind these 15, so out of the top 15 at best. You then could discuss her vs Mauresmo, Wade, Halep, Kerber, Sanchez Vicario, Mandlikova, Austin. and determine if she even belongs in the top 20. I suspect she would make the top 20 somewhere, but outside the top 15 IMO, as I already broke down 15 women minimum I think should be over her. Bottom line is she needed to play longer, achieve a lot more, and prove longevity to climb any higher than that.
 
Last edited:
I forgot Osaka. She is another who could go ahead, but I am uncertain on her as she is really a slams only player, a hard court only player, and this is the first one Barty's #1 stats are meaningful in comparision with little else for Osaka to counter that with. Osaka's only edge really is 1 more major, and perceived higher peak level play (although that is still really only on surfaces outside grass and clay), but that isn't enough. I think Barty should over her probably, but she is another who you could make a case for being over her all the same.
 
The only 3 slam winner that MAYBE I would put Barty over in a GOAT ranking is Capriati....and even then its close.

Barty won 3 of the 4 majors vs 2 of the 4 for Capriati. Capriati however successfully defended a major.

Barty has more titles (barely) at 15 compared to 14 for Capriati. Capriati however has made more overall finals.

Barty also won more WTA 1000 level tournaments (Miami twice and Cincy) vs Capriati winning Rome. Capriati also won Charleston when it was a tier 1 event however we want to take that.

Barty also has way more weeks at number 1...however Capriati arguably faced a tougher field.

Capriati also won Olympic gold (epic win over Graf)....Barty was able to win the tour finals.

Its close between those 2. All the others I'd probably place over her including Osaka (although maybe there one could try and make a case...but its not much)

Capriati didn't arguably face a tougher field, LOL! Capriati unquestionably faced a far tougher field, and it isn't even close. Whether you are talking 91-93 where she contended, but was constantly held just short of real greatness but the people on top then, or 2001-2003/2004 where she won her slams and again regularly contended. I have a feeling you were purposely being nice here, but that part isn't even close. Barty faced pretty much nothing except an old Serena, even Osaka was nearly done by that point, and Halep and Kerber were just about too.

Your points are good but you also have to add on Capriati's far higher number of quality finishes in majors. I mentioned this already but 13 slam semis vs only 4 for Barty and 23 quarters vs only 6 for Barty is huge. It shows just how often and long Capriati was a legitimate contender in majors, even though she wasn't successful in ultimately winning a lot of them (only as many as Barty). And yes some of that is Barty's shortended career, but that was her own doing, and even if she had a very long career I don't see her ever making 13 slam semis and 23 slam quarters for instance (in this scenario she likely has more than 3 majors mind you, but obviously as is has only 3).
 
Top