NoleFam
Bionic Poster
He was top 30 in 2006 and 2008, but that wasn't the point you made. You said he was semi-retired but clearly he wasnt.
Why do you think?
Which is it?
- Thread starter Chanwan
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RF-18
Talk Tennis Guru
Not according to him. He is great at both.
“I don't know,” he said. “All I can say is I got two titles on clay and one on hard court. Yeah, I feel very comfortable in both surface, so I don't mind playing on clay or on hard court. But I feel comfortable on both.”
Mivic
Hall of Fame
He might feel more comfortable on HC and might even have a higher absolute level on that surface but that doesn't change the fact that he matches up favourably against a greater number of top opponents on clay than he does on hard within the context of the current field.
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Incognito
Legend
Commentators on Eurosport said during an interview This year that hardcourt was his favorite. He grew up on clay so he is comfortable moving on it but not as fluid as Nadal at the same age. He often runs to the ball instead of sliding on clay. A quality not indicative of a pure clay court specialist.
Anyway, he has a major on hc and two masters already.
Razer
Legend
Me liking @Holmes 's comments means that I agree with the idea of his post, not word by word. While I dont agree that Federer was at its peak in 2015 or 2017 I certainly do believe that ATGs slowed down their decline a lot by modern day medications, training methods, obviously more motivation as well due to records being chased and a lot of money at the disposal as well. So I agree with the idea of the post made by holmes and thats why I liked it. I never agreed that fed is at his peak in 2015/2017 but in Fed's own words he can beat his 10 years younger versions, so I must take into account that even though Fed is a bit past his prime he is very close to prime levels by additional improvements on his serve and improved net game to compensate for decline in returning prowess. Everybody knows that Federer was physically at his best in 2003-07, this is not the same in 2015 but then skill levels also do compensate for a loss in athleticism.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
81.7% winning percentage on clay with 7 titles compared to 73.2% win percentage on hardcourt with 3 titles. As of now, he looks to be better on clay.
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Incognito
Legend
Are you really counting his 250 titles in south america. I dont count those lol.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
He also has 2 Masters, one where he went through Nadal and Djokovic.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Well, he did beat Fed to win his first slam at 20.
But 2007 RG specifically Djokovic wasn't gonna win, I agree.
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Holmes
Hall of Fame
Your point has some validity, given 21 year old Novak destroyed defending champion Roger at the AO in 2008, and then went on to destroy his legacy and surpass him in almost every way. I think this relationship is more correlation than causation, though we will have to wait to see:
1- Whether Alcaraz even beats Novak
2- Whether Alcaraz also utterly surpasses Novak the way Novak did Fed
Only after both can we really draw any conclusions.
Pandora Mikado
Semi-Pro
Carlos seems like the kind who’s going to go on a wild run for 1-3 years and taper off. 5-7 slams maybe.
Young Nadal was like this, but he also had a huge lefty advantage on the tour and the top player Federer at the time. For years Federer would decimate the field and meet Nadal whom he lost to mentally, physically, tactically.
It’s just a freak coincidence Nadal came along in Federer’s prime and became his nemesis. Lefty heavy spin into that tiny 90 BH.
I don’t see Carlos having this natural advantage on the number #1. He’s ahead of the curve but in a more conventional way. I don’t see him anywhere near the big 3 who are light years ahead of everyone else in the history of tennis. Who knows? Maybe he surprises and has a long career that takes him near that level.
Young Nadal was like this, but he also had a huge lefty advantage on the tour and the top player Federer at the time. For years Federer would decimate the field and meet Nadal whom he lost to mentally, physically, tactically.
It’s just a freak coincidence Nadal came along in Federer’s prime and became his nemesis. Lefty heavy spin into that tiny 90 BH.
I don’t see Carlos having this natural advantage on the number #1. He’s ahead of the curve but in a more conventional way. I don’t see him anywhere near the big 3 who are light years ahead of everyone else in the history of tennis. Who knows? Maybe he surprises and has a long career that takes him near that level.
aldeayeah
G.O.A.T.
ELO is a bad metric in tennis, and absolute value ELO is even worse.
Anyway if you want to compare oranges to oranges, Alcaraz has about the same ELO Rafa did in late 2005-early 2006, or pre-2011 Djokovic, which seems about right.
Spin Diesel
Hall of Fame
Both good arguments actually.
Tennfan123
Legend
You can only be close to the peak of your powers at 36 if there are no played aged 20-27 close to theirs. If that is the case, it is a weak era.
initialize
Hall of Fame
I like how virtually every thread like this essentially tells us that Fed is the GOAT
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
Alcaraz should dispatch Djokovic pretty easily, say three or four sets. If he doesn't, it's an inexcusable loss on his part.
With the way he's been playing the last three years or so, Djokovic should have already been firmly replaced by the Medvedev/Zverev generation, but that never happened because that generation just isn't very good compared to others in the past (e.g. Lendl/Becker/Edberg replacing Mac, Sampras/Agassi replacing Lendl, Fed replacing Sampras and Agassi). Now we have to rely on the generation after Medvedev and Zverev to actually put an end to this nonsense.
Djokovic hasn't been at his A game in a long, long time (not since 2016 and parts of 2018 maybe). We've been searching forever for someone who is at least capable of matching Djokovic's B or C game. Hopefully, Alcaraz is that player, and hopefully that happens sooner rather than later. This semifinal will be pretty important for him.
With the way he's been playing the last three years or so, Djokovic should have already been firmly replaced by the Medvedev/Zverev generation, but that never happened because that generation just isn't very good compared to others in the past (e.g. Lendl/Becker/Edberg replacing Mac, Sampras/Agassi replacing Lendl, Fed replacing Sampras and Agassi). Now we have to rely on the generation after Medvedev and Zverev to actually put an end to this nonsense.
Djokovic hasn't been at his A game in a long, long time (not since 2016 and parts of 2018 maybe). We've been searching forever for someone who is at least capable of matching Djokovic's B or C game. Hopefully, Alcaraz is that player, and hopefully that happens sooner rather than later. This semifinal will be pretty important for him.
Sampras-Bruguera 1993
Legend
Anyone in the top 5 (If it was true quality) and in their 20s, probably shouldn't be losing to a 36 year old Djokovic. . Thats pretty old for tennis even in 2023. LOL. Djoker has been a top dog since basically late 2007. I mean thats 16 years of deep runs and heavy mileage, all year long, year in year out. How can you be losing to him if you're in your 20s with no mileage and a top guy?
Even if Djokovic is GOAT. 36 is still 36 and heavy heavy mileage
Even if Djokovic is GOAT. 36 is still 36 and heavy heavy mileage
JustMy2Cents
Hall of Fame
almost everybody following the game thinks so too.
but here is Kyrgios... ever the contrarian!! comparing the situation to some fictional hype of unplayable Med.
what 'exposing of flaws' is he talking about??
abmk
Bionic Poster
doesn't work vs a high level sustained barrage over Bo5. see fed vs djoko in Wim 15/USO 15 or AO 16 or even Wawa in RG 15...
Djoko definitely not even close to prime, let peak.
he's not improved his clutchness at all. just that field is so bad it makes it look like that. tactical approaches/shot selection is pretty much related.
he's not just lost athleticism and speed, also return reflexes, fh/bh consistency, wreight of shot.
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
Again, it's not like I'm expecting Alcaraz to have Nadal's career on clay. I expect him to beat a 36 years old on his worst surface, is it really asking too much?
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
And he will do so stop stressing about it.
Yeah, it is hard to come up with an ideal scoring system.
General trends seem to match by an assortment of metrics.
Elo, atp points, utr's etc.
not comparing GOATS, so 50 puts here or there is okay
This website claims to have a custom tennis elo. Don't know the details.
Ultimate Tennis Statistics - Peak Elo Ratings
Peak Elo Ratings compare peak player strengths across Eras, overall, by surface, by in/out or by set/game/tie-break
www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com
Ray Mercer
Hall of Fame
Djokovic is 36 years old and past his best. He’s still winning because of playing bums like Tsitsipas, Kyrgios etc. Alcaraz should put him to bed like Federer did Agassi. A true phenom should put down an old great player on clay best of 5.
Holmes
Hall of Fame
Don't be so sure. Novak has a way of scraping to a win even when playing poorly. All we need is the audience to side against him, which given Carlos's popularity is very possible, and I'd bet on him for the W.And he will do so stop stressing about it.
RaulRamirez
Legend
Among many, not all, there's just rampant negativity on this forum.
One doesn't have to like the two players in question, but I don't understand the lack of appreciation for Alcaraz, about as good a 20-year-old (yes, one might argue Rafa, Becker or Borg) as many of us have seen come through the ATP in a lonnng time. And...with as much objectivity as I can bring, the guy is pure excitement -- athletic, skilled , competitive, charismatic.
And I know how controversial Novak is, but the guy is the most accomplished player in the OE, and still hungry to achieve more. And yes, still playing at a very high level, despite all the sports actuaries (my newly coined term) on this forum.
(This shouldn't be happening. I don't like what is happening. I need to denigrate it.)
No one match is going to prove that Alcaraz is an ATG or the heir to the legacy of The Big 3, nor will one match derail his ambitions or eventual legacy. He just turned 20 years old!!
As to sentiments like "He should demolish Djokovic. He's 36 and this is his worst surface."
I shouldn't have to point out how, well, idiotic this is.
For one, Novak's worst surface - or worst major - would be the absolute best for all but (not counting) 8-10 players in OE history. Two titles, four more finals (not counting 2013's de facto final), 6 additional semis and 5 more additional QFs. That's insane, and even more insane given the presence of Mr. Nadal, who dominated this slam as nobody else has dominated any slam.
One doesn't have to like the two players in question, but I don't understand the lack of appreciation for Alcaraz, about as good a 20-year-old (yes, one might argue Rafa, Becker or Borg) as many of us have seen come through the ATP in a lonnng time. And...with as much objectivity as I can bring, the guy is pure excitement -- athletic, skilled , competitive, charismatic.
And I know how controversial Novak is, but the guy is the most accomplished player in the OE, and still hungry to achieve more. And yes, still playing at a very high level, despite all the sports actuaries (my newly coined term) on this forum.
(This shouldn't be happening. I don't like what is happening. I need to denigrate it.)
No one match is going to prove that Alcaraz is an ATG or the heir to the legacy of The Big 3, nor will one match derail his ambitions or eventual legacy. He just turned 20 years old!!
As to sentiments like "He should demolish Djokovic. He's 36 and this is his worst surface."
I shouldn't have to point out how, well, idiotic this is.
For one, Novak's worst surface - or worst major - would be the absolute best for all but (not counting) 8-10 players in OE history. Two titles, four more finals (not counting 2013's de facto final), 6 additional semis and 5 more additional QFs. That's insane, and even more insane given the presence of Mr. Nadal, who dominated this slam as nobody else has dominated any slam.
btsjungkook
Professional
Djokovic won't win but if Alcaraz doesn't bagel or breadstick him like declined Nadal did, it would prove even declined Nadal is better than 20 year old Alcaraz on clay.
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