Which way to go to further develop my first serve

[johnmccabe]

I feel I'm at a crossroad and can't decide how to develop my first serve. Here are the two options. Thoughts and suggestions are welcome.

I've been using pin point stance low toss motion like Ruud Kygrios for a while. I practiced most hitting flat and have a clear idea of how to control placement. I can hit hard slice but haven't practiced it enough. This motion is efficient to generate power and feels very easy on arm. But the percentage is not as high as I would like.

J and another friend told me to stop jumping and add more topspin into the first serve. I recently figured out how to do that with higher toss on a narrow platform stance. It's mostly a topspin or topslice first serve. The result is my first serve percentage went up a lot. controlling placement became very difficult and ball speed dropped. My arm definitely feels the stress after serving hard for couple sets.

Being 40+ and short, if I stick to pinpoint motion, I probably need to really focus on getting the hard slice serve down for good percentage and placement. I somehow can't mix in topspin to the pinpoint first serve.

If I don't jump and continue to hit more topspin first serves, I will have to learn to use my core muscles to drive the cartwheel motion better, otherwise arm injury is a matter of time, because I'm trading power from leg for consistency. Also I need to learn how to control placement in the topspin serve.

I think the reason why I get lower percentage but more easy power with the pinpoint is that I can toss more into the court and make contact higher with more forward body momentum. Maybe I can get the toss and jumping to work consistently enough, but maybe not.

So that's where I am and can't decide what to do next. What do you think?

 

[Jonesy]

Stop jumping, and cut the ball more. The more simple you make the motion the better it is to master it to make it great. At your level placement and control is everything.

 

[johnmccabe]

Stop jumping, and cut the ball more. The more simple you make the motion the better it is to master it to make it great. At your level placement and control is everything.

Maybe I know this is the way to go and am still in denial. Don't want to throw away the work I put into that jumping motion. Also jumping and landing like the pros looks much better on videos, lol

 

[tendency]

I feel I'm at a crossroad and can't decide how to develop my first serve. Here are the two options. Thoughts and suggestions are welcome.

I've been using pin point stance low toss motion like Ruud Kygrios for a while. I practiced most hitting flat and have a clear idea of how to control placement. I can hit hard slice but haven't practiced it enough. This motion is efficient to generate power and feels very easy on arm. But the percentage is not as high as I would like.

J and another friend told me to stop jumping and add more topspin into the first serve. I recently figured out how to do that with higher toss on a narrow platform stance. It's mostly a topspin or topslice first serve. The result is my first serve percentage went up a lot. controlling placement became very difficult and ball speed dropped. My arm definitely feels the stress after serving hard for couple sets.

Being 40+ and short, if I stick to pinpoint motion, I probably need to really focus on getting the hard slice serve down for good percentage and placement. I somehow can't mix in topspin to the pinpoint first serve.

If I don't jump and continue to hit more topspin first serves, I will have to learn to use my core muscles to drive the cartwheel motion better, otherwise arm injury is a matter of time, because I'm trading power from leg for consistency. Also I need to learn how to control placement in the topspin serve.

I think the reason why I get lower percentage but more easy power with the pinpoint is that I can toss more into the court and make contact higher with more forward body momentum. Maybe I can get the toss and jumping to work consistently enough, but maybe not.

So that's where I am and can't decide what to do next. What do you think?

Another good technique is to start the serve from the trophy position, work on toss mechanics and keeping off arm up then correct shoulder rotation into ball. can start by staying largely stationary then slowly work on adding in weight transfer etc.

 

[johnmccabe]

Another good technique is to start the serve from the trophy position, work on toss mechanics and keeping off arm up then correct shoulder rotation into ball. can start by staying largely stationary then slowly work on adding in weight transfer etc.

I think I have passed that stage of learning. But maybe not...

 

[user92626]

I wonder what specific things that make the serve so hard to learn and master.

Once we have identified those very specific things then we would have real chance. Otherwise it's throwing darts in the dark.

 

[mcs1970]

You say that if you don’t jump up you are sacrificing using core for consistency. That is a fundamental misunderstanding.

A lot of great servers of the past used their cores well and were mandated to have one foot always in contact with the ground. Look at the serve doctors videos on yt. The key to a great serve is just two things: core balance and throwing the ball into the court even on topspin so that your weight is moving forward.

 

[johnmccabe]

You say that if you don’t jump up you are sacrificing using core for consistency. That is a fundamental misunderstanding.

A lot of great servers of the past used their cores well and were mandated to have one foot always in contact with the ground. Look at the serve doctors videos on yt. The key to a great serve is just two things: core balance and throwing the ball into the court even on topspin so that your weight is moving forward.

If not using the legs, I need to better use the core to compensate for the power loss. That's what I said.

 

[PKorda]

Whatever motion is causing arm strain, I would choose the other one and work on refining that

 

[mcs1970]

If not using the legs, I need to better use the core to compensate for the power loss. That's what I said.

I am saying if you are relying on the legs to jump up get your power you are doing something wrong in the first place. Did you watch that video?

 

[socallefty]

There are no general answers to these kinds of questions that are right for every player. Ask your coach.

 

[LuckyR]

Maybe I know this is the way to go and am still in denial. Don't want to throw away the work I put into that jumping motion. Also jumping and landing like the pros looks much better on videos, lol

I disagree that you have to necessarily stop getting some air (jumping-wise) on your serve. Rather I'd switch to a higher toss, which will give you 1) more consistancy on your (preferred) flat serve and 2) give you more leeway when you toss off target.
As to jumping I'd dial it back such that your natural upward motion takes you a couple of inches off the ground (as opposed to an intentional "jumping" motion).

 

[MyFearHand]

I think I have passed that stage of learning. But maybe not...

I had to do things like that to revamp my serve. It’s never too late to go back to basics.

 

[Chas Tennis]

You can observe exactly what the ATP players are doing in slow motion Youtubes. (~240 fps recording speed.) I identified many serving sub-motions of the ATP serve and posted on those. For example, Forum Search: Thoracic Extension tennis serve

On the forum, you can post an ATP server's Youtube under your own serving Youtube and step through single frame and see the differences. Search: my posts in the lasts 3-4 years to see instructions on how to compare and observed poster differences. If you don't want to post a video on the forum, you can post it in a forum "Conversation" to someone that you know that is a forum member. A tennis buddy would be perfect. Mostly you will see missing sub-motions or those that are not effectively performed. The missing sub-motions probably lower the performance level of the serve.

There is a safety issue discussed by Todd Ellenbecker in a video, "Rotator Cuff Injury", where the upper arm should not be too high to the shoulder joint during the serving motion. See Ellenbecker and search my posts on Internal Shoulder Rotation (ISR) Ellenbecker Impingement

If you do not want to attempt the ATP serving technique, then decide on what you are going to do. In other words, specify the sub-motions. DIY? I do not know of other recommended serving techniques.

The Waiter's Tray technique (lacks ISR) seems to have a reasonable safety record. ?

Pat Dougherty has a rare Youtube on improving the low performance WT technique.
'Hammer that Serve'

DIY = Do-It-Yourself (DIY sub-motions are what most active tennis players do.)

 

[johnmccabe]

I am saying if you are relying on the legs to jump up get your power you are doing something wrong in the first place. Did you watch that video?

Will do

 

[johnmccabe]

There are no general answers to these kinds of questions that are right for every player. Ask your coach.

There are two good coaches I want to work with locally. One is too busy. The other just moved to the west.

 

[johnmccabe]

Whatever motion is causing arm strain, I would choose the other one and work on refining that

But it's so much more dependable in matches. Not exaggerating at all.

 

[johnmccabe]

Another good technique is to start the serve from the trophy position, work on toss mechanics and keeping off arm up then correct shoulder rotation into ball. can start by staying largely stationary then slowly work on adding in weight transfer etc.

Reading this again. You are correct. That's definitely a progression I should go through.

 

[PKorda]

But it's so much more dependable in matches. Not exaggerating at all.

I would hire a coach then to figure it out, whatever it costs will be less than the medical bills and lost tennis time down the line.

 

[badmice2]

Misconception to the jump in serve.

It’s not a jump, but a follow through. Just like groundies where players leave the ground. It’s not intentional.

Dialing it back a bit. Do you know your optimal contact point for each of your serve you want to hit? Before getting into the motions of your technique, you may want to get a full grasp knowing where you like your ball toss. Your body momentum should flow to the contact point. Without know how your ball toss looks, it’s hard to know how your body is following.

Video will help give better insight…

 

[johnmccabe]

Misconception to the jump in serve.

It’s not a jump, but a follow through. Just like groundies where players leave the ground. It’s not intentional.

Dialing it back a bit. Do you know your optimal contact point for each of your serve you want to hit? Before getting into the motions of your technique, you may want to get a full grasp knowing where you like your ball toss. Your body momentum should flow to the contact point. Without know how your ball toss looks, it’s hard to know how your body is following.

Video will help give better insight…

I think I know the optimal contact point. On my pinpoint 1st serve, tossing further into the court to tap into body momentum seems harder to achieve consistency and I don't coil a lot. On the narrow platform, I coil upper body more and toss less into the court. It's becoming clearer in my head the issue boils down to generating consistent reliable power and these are my basic options:
1. Keep relying on the legs and forward body momentum (pinpoint), and learn to reach optimal contact point consistently by coordinating toss location and leg drive direction.
2. Learn to use core muscles to better drive the shoulder cartwheeling to gain power (platform) without messing round on the toss.

 

[badmice2]

I don’t see any problems with your toss, your weight transfer, your stances, etc. I do see a problem with your hands.

To be more specific, your hands are late getting to a set position to hit. Case in point 2 second mark…ball is travel up and your racket/hand is still at the bottom…my guess is youre hitting when the ball is on the way down; or you’re rushing your hands to chase the ball, unable to delivery forward properly.

 

[coolvinny]

I suggest platform (PF) and focusing on driving from the legs.

Your main serve problem however is that in both PF and PP you’re not making contact with a straight arm. Arm was more bent in the PP example. PP is just more complicated and makes it harder to address fundamental issues such as a straight arm, racket angle at impact, toss location, etc.

 

[johnmccabe]

I don’t see any problems with your toss, your weight transfer, your stances, etc. I do see a problem with your hands.

To be more specific, your hands are late getting to a set position to hit. Case in point 2 second mark…ball is travel up and your racket/hand is still at the bottom…my guess is youre hitting when the ball is on the way down; or you’re rushing your hands to chase the ball, unable to delivery forward properly.

That racquet lag or delay is by design. It's good for easy power, harder for timing.

 

[badmice2]

That racquet lag or delay is by design. It's good for easy power, harder for timing.

Something has to give…you want power? Or you want better control on your delivery?

 

[johnmccabe]

Something has to give…you want power? Or you want better control on your delivery?

I'm willing to give away power for consistency, which is why I made this thread in the first place. But this racquet lag is a key for racquet head speed without straining the arm.

 

[badmice2]

I'm willing to give away power for consistency, which is why I made this thread in the first place. But this racquet lag is a key for racquet head speed without straining the arm.

Well the location of your low racket start is likely messing with your timing to delivering your racket on point regardless of platform or pin point stance. I suggest you compromise somewhere so that it allows more time. Otherwise you’re going to need miraculous timing and a robotic toss with near zero degree of error.

 

[johnmccabe]

Well the location of your low racket start is likely messing with your timing to delivering your racket on point regardless of platform or pin point stance. I suggest you compromise somewhere so that it allows more time. Otherwise you’re going to need miraculous timing and a robotic toss with near zero degree of error.

Sounds reasonable... More stuff to try then

 

[eah123]

I think you have a pretty good serve. Probably arming it too much. What I suggest is that you stick with the pinpoint but increase the amount of loading after you step. Really get a feeling of sinking your weight down toward the court before exploding up into the ball.

 

[coolvinny]

Sounds reasonable... More stuff to try then

Racket lag on serve is so overrated in this YouTube era. Nothing wrong with more sync’d timing as long as hitches are avoided (and even then, depends how you define “hitch”). Virtually all non pro serves have much bigger problems then whether some toss/racket lag will give 5% more power.

 

[nyta2]

I feel I'm at a crossroad and can't decide how to develop my first serve. Here are the two options. Thoughts and suggestions are welcome.

I've been using pin point stance low toss motion like Ruud Kygrios for a while. I practiced most hitting flat and have a clear idea of how to control placement. I can hit hard slice but haven't practiced it enough. This motion is efficient to generate power and feels very easy on arm. But the percentage is not as high as I would like.

J and another friend told me to stop jumping and add more topspin into the first serve. I recently figured out how to do that with higher toss on a narrow platform stance. It's mostly a topspin or topslice first serve. The result is my first serve percentage went up a lot. controlling placement became very difficult and ball speed dropped. My arm definitely feels the stress after serving hard for couple sets.

Being 40+ and short, if I stick to pinpoint motion, I probably need to really focus on getting the hard slice serve down for good percentage and placement. I somehow can't mix in topspin to the pinpoint first serve.

i'm 50+ and short, and use narrow platform...
if you're having issue with topspin, i'm guessing you're (a) tossing too far out in front (b) leaning in too much to chase the toss (like it's flat or slice), or both (a+b)
being short, i tend not to hit "flat" unless i'm up in the score...

If I don't jump and continue to hit more topspin first serves, I will have to learn to use my core muscles to drive the cartwheel motion better, otherwise arm injury is a matter of time, because I'm trading power from leg for consistency. Also I need to learn how to control placement in the topspin serve.

i don't "jump".
i elevate up and through my contact, which does cause me to leave the ground, but it's not a "jump"... more like a pole vault to use @Serve Doc terminology.
a good leg drive will add racquet head speed, which you can choose to use for spin or pace (depending on whether you're "hitting through" the ball or "hitting across" the ball

I think the reason why I get lower percentage but more easy power with the pinpoint is that I can toss more into the court and make contact higher with more forward body momentum. Maybe I can get the toss and jumping to work consistently enough, but maybe not.

out in front, is great for flat... can lean in,
but when slicing, i toss closer to the baseline, and when topspinning or kicking, i toss "on/around" the baseline

So that's where I am and can't decide what to do next. What do you think?

 

[nyta2]

Racket lag on serve is so overrated in this YouTube era. Nothing wrong with more sync’d timing as long as hitches are avoided (and even then, depends how you define “hitch”). Virtually all non pro serves have much bigger problems then whether some toss/racket lag will give 5% more power.

racquet lag is a by product of staying loose, and letting the racquet trace the proper path...
i think it's wrong to focus on it (instead focus on letting the racquet swing like a pendulum - eg. sock drill).
when i try to serve lefty for example, i find myself tensing and arming the ball (thus no racquet lag), because i'm trying to coordinate the swing and contact.
i have to force myself to stay loose, and focus on sync'ing the timing of the toss with my loose swing...

[edit]
oops wrong context of racquet lag.
i find that lagging the racquet (vs up together down together), helps me tilt my shoulders better, so i can get into a position more easily to "throw the racquet up and through contact"... does result in some racquet head speed gain, but i didn't do it for that reason

 

[nyta2]

That racquet lag or delay is by design. It's good for easy power, harder for timing.

i do a lag as well... took a long time to break the up together down together rhythm...
main benefit for me is being able to tilt my shoulder better.

 

[fecund345]

Go to a tennis court fence, stick a flatter ball in the fence 1.5 times your height. Practice your ball toss until you can get it to a foot higher than that height in your sleep. You will get more first and second serves in play. You will hit it at 1.5 times height level.

 

[johnmccabe]

Go to a tennis court fence, stick a flatter ball in the fence 1.5 times your height. Practice your ball toss until you can get it to a foot higher than that height in your sleep. You will get more first and second serves in play. You will hit it at 1.5 times height level.

Interesting idea! I've seen ball stuck there, never thought that had a purpose.

 

[johnmccabe]

i'm 50+ and short, and use narrow platform...
if you're having issue with topspin, i'm guessing you're (a) tossing too far out in front (b) leaning in too much to chase the toss (like it's flat or slice), or both (a+b)
being short, i tend not to hit "flat" unless i'm up in the score...

i don't "jump".
i elevate up and through my contact, which does cause me to leave the ground, but it's not a "jump"... more like a pole vault to use @Serve Doc terminology.
a good leg drive will add racquet head speed, which you can choose to use for spin or pace (depending on whether you're "hitting through" the ball or "hitting across" the ball

out in front, is great for flat... can lean in,
but when slicing, i toss closer to the baseline, and when topspinning or kicking, i toss "on/around" the baseline

I'll give it a go for a while and see what happens.

 

[user92626]

Go to a tennis court fence, stick a flatter ball in the fence 1.5 times your height. Practice your ball toss until you can get it to a foot higher than that height in your sleep. You will get more first and second serves in play. You will hit it at 1.5 times height level.

I start to like your posting style. You came up with alot of ideas. Nice.

 

[fecund345]

Interesting idea! I've seen ball stuck there, never thought that had a purpose.

There are serving windows based on the height of contact and speed of service. Physics for tennis books suggest the biggest windows exist at a contact point 1.5 times your height. Those windows are bigger with more spin, but even your flat serve percentages go up if you abide by this rule. Of course Isner is going to have bigger windows. If you try jumping higher it could mess up you leverage, power you recieve from the ground.

 

[TennisCJC]

Your serve is pretty good in the video above. Based on your statement that you are short and hit mostly flat, my advice is don't to that (hit flat). If you are under 6 feet tall, you have very little margin to hit flat serves. Learn to hit a power slice serve with a lot of spin. I did notice that on your slice serve from the ad side, there isn't much internal shoulder rotation. Try hitting more up and L to R across the contact point. Even on 1st serves, try getting your hand slightly outside of the contact point so the angle from your hand to ball contact looks like \ from the back. For a 2nd serve the angle would be even lower to hit up on the ball. Spin on the serve if your best friend. I've watched Isner, Federer and Roddick live and they all bend their 1st serves with a lot of spin. Very rarely, Isner does take spin off the ball but he's 6' 10" and he stills hit the vast majority of his serves with a load of spin. I've watched Roddick hit 120-125 mph 1st serves that had huge spin and break on the ball.

 

[johnmccabe]

Your serve is pretty good in the video above. Based on your statement that you are short and hit mostly flat, my advice is don't to that (hit flat). If you are under 6 feet tall, you have very little margin to hit flat serves. Learn to hit a power slice serve with a lot of spin. I did notice that on your slice serve from the ad side, there isn't much internal shoulder rotation. Try hitting more up and L to R across the contact point. Even on 1st serves, try getting your hand slightly outside of the contact point so the angle from your hand to ball contact looks like \ from the back. For a 2nd serve the angle would be even lower to hit up on the ball. Spin on the serve if your best friend. I've watched Isner, Federer and Roddick live and they all bend their 1st serves with a lot of spin. Very rarely, Isner does take spin off the ball but he's 6' 10" and he stills hit the vast majority of his serves with a load of spin. I've watched Roddick hit 120-125 mph 1st serves that had huge spin and break on the ball.

okay! Thanks! For hard slice first serve involving ISR, I can't figure out how to brush L to R. I don't have it on video, but for that particular serve, I have to make contact more like 1-2 oclock on the ball (12 oclock being the top of the ball) to generate both spin and pace with ISR. That is one option to further develop. For that hard slice serve, I also toss more into the court and use pinpoint stance to chase the toss a little. when it worked, it was great. but I haven't practiced enough to make that serve really reliable. I'm starting to think my problem on pinpoint stance is largely the toss. maybe I don't have a good control on how far into the court I'm tossing.

The angle between racquet and forearm at contact is a tough nut to crack. I'm working on it too...

 

[jz000]

Try higher prep position with right arm.
Let arm 'drop' and come back up to gain momentum to meet the ball that's dropping (since you are tossing high now).
Good luck!

 

[onehandbh]

I think I know the optimal contact point. On my pinpoint 1st serve, tossing further into the court to tap into body momentum seems harder to achieve consistency and I don't coil a lot. On the narrow platform, I coil upper body more and toss less into the court. It's becoming clearer in my head the issue boils down to generating consistent reliable power and these are my basic options:
1. Keep relying on the legs and forward body momentum (pinpoint), and learn to reach optimal contact point consistently by coordinating toss location and leg drive direction.
2. Learn to use core muscles to better drive the shoulder cartwheeling to gain power (platform) without messing round on the toss.

What kind of serve are you trying to hit?

These don't appear to have much topspin and seem to be more slice. Looks like you are contacting at around 12 o'clock.
Also, the racquet and forearm look to be close to a 180 degrees (straight line). This makes it harder maximize spin and power.

 

[Chas Tennis]

I think I know the optimal contact point. On my pinpoint 1st serve, tossing further into the court to tap into body momentum seems harder to achieve consistency and I don't coil a lot. On the narrow platform, I coil upper body more and toss less into the court. It's becoming clearer in my head the issue boils down to generating consistent reliable power and these are my basic options:
1. Keep relying on the legs and forward body momentum (pinpoint), and learn to reach optimal contact point consistently by coordinating toss location and leg drive direction.
2. Learn to use core muscles to better drive the shoulder cartwheeling to gain power (platform) without messing round on the toss.

I have posted on how to compare one Youtube serve video to an ATP server's video - with instructions And do this frame-by-frame and one video above another - on this forum.

Check your motion leading to the ball with about 240 fps and small motion blur. Buy a used Casio FH100 or other high speed video camera. It has a shutter speed of 25 microseconds (!) and the videos are small video files.

Effective ATP serves with ISR.

Google: Chas Tennis Youtube
Find: Tennis Serve Internal Shoulder Rotation

Compare these ATP serves to your serve. Compare at the forearm to racket shaft angles plus when you are doing ISR.

I was completely ignorant of this for over 35 years....................do better...........

 

[TennisDawg]

Misconception to the jump in serve.

It’s not a jump, but a follow through. Just like groundies where players leave the ground. It’s not intentional.

Dialing it back a bit. Do you know your optimal contact point for each of your serve you want to hit? Before getting into the motions of your technique, you may want to get a full grasp knowing where you like your ball toss. Your body momentum should flow to the contact point. Without know how your ball toss looks, it’s hard to know how your body is following.

Video will help give better insight…

Agree feet leaving the ground is a result of the serve momentum. It’s not something you should be actively doing it should occur naturally.

 

[CAREDDINGTON]

I feel I'm at a crossroad and can't decide how to develop my first serve. Here are the two options. Thoughts and suggestions are welcome.

I've been using pin point stance low toss motion like Ruud Kygrios for a while. I practiced most hitting flat and have a clear idea of how to control placement. I can hit hard slice but haven't practiced it enough. This motion is efficient to generate power and feels very easy on arm. But the percentage is not as high as I would like.

J and another friend told me to stop jumping and add more topspin into the first serve. I recently figured out how to do that with higher toss on a narrow platform stance. It's mostly a topspin or topslice first serve. The result is my first serve percentage went up a lot. controlling placement became very difficult and ball speed dropped. My arm definitely feels the stress after serving hard for couple sets.

Being 40+ and short, if I stick to pinpoint motion, I probably need to really focus on getting the hard slice serve down for good percentage and placement. I somehow can't mix in topspin to the pinpoint first serve.

If I don't jump and continue to hit more topspin first serves, I will have to learn to use my core muscles to drive the cartwheel motion better, otherwise arm injury is a matter of time, because I'm trading power from leg for consistency. Also I need to learn how to control placement in the topspin serve.

I think the reason why I get lower percentage but more easy power with the pinpoint is that I can toss more into the court and make contact higher with more forward body momentum. Maybe I can get the toss and jumping to work consistently enough, but maybe not.

So that's where I am and can't decide what to do next. What do you think?

You need to focus on your ball toss. The only difference between platform and pinpoint is how you use your momentum to drive-up and forward. Believing that platform gives you an advantage for a topspin or slice serve is only because you are throwing the ball closer to you in position with you body. A pinpoint stance forces you to throw the ball farther away.