Who has the best PAIR of groundstrokes ever?

singlehander

New User
We talk all the time about Nadal and Federer as having great forehands, Djokovic and Kuerten as great backhands etc. but who has the best pair of groundstrokes?

My vote would be for Djokovic
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
It's hard to judge the ground-strokes. Do we just include everything, such as lobs, droppers, slices, rally strok, X-factor shot-making???


If we were able to isolate the strokes, I'd take Agassi's. After him I'd take Nadal's or Borg's.

Lendl is another very strong contender.

Rosewall was extremely solid and reliable.

Federer's and Djokovic's are excellent.

Safin does probably deserve a mention here.
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
Judas said:
Some interesting and unique strengths of Ralph's and DjoDjo's baseline games:

Ralph ******

*Incredible forehand spin which often overwhelms the opponent and pushes them further back into the court, exposing gaps to then continue to exploit, enabling Ralph to often pummel the opponent into submission.
*An uncanny loopy FH cross-court hook defensive shot when on the full run which almost always goes to the opponents ad court, often neutralising the attack.
*Unbelievable ability to defend on the full stretch with lobs that land curiously close to the baselines, again often neutralising the rally from initial disadvantageous positions.
*Extremely reliable defensive floating BH slice which lands deep in the ad court which once again has a great neutralising effect.
*An often deadly I/O FH.
*Spectacular passing shots.
*Able to produce shot-making on the full stretch that no other player on tour can, including specialties such as extreme DTL FH banana shots.
*The best on tour at killing short mid-court balls; he rarely nets these shots and is extremely reliable and accurate with the forehand.

Supernova Djokonaut

*An incredible ability to absorb attacks on the BH side with an aggressive counter-punch which immediately transforms defense into attack.
*An extremely reliable BH DTL dropshot.
*Outstanding ability to redirect angles of attacks throughout rallies on both sides.
*One of the best lobs on tour.
*An all around very good ability to take the ball early, not allowing himself to give up ground to opponents, even against those who have the capacity to overwhelm the opponent with incredible topspin and/or pace.
*A backhand which acts as a genuinely prolific offensive weapon rather than merely being a containing weaker groundstroke that doesn't leak errors. By contrast, Federer and Nadal will have more matches where the BH is solid and containing but any truly major offense is produced on the FH side. Nole is 'guilty' of this too - the FH is just the more prolific offensive stroke at the top level - but has done everything to turn his BH into a true offensive weapon.
*As an extension to the above, he consistently has weapons on both sides throughout matches, where as many other players will only consistently have a weapon on one side.


Feel free to add points, as it should be interesting to compare various attributes and discuss the things that make those these players unique and effective.

***

I agree with the above sentiments regarding Andreas Murray.

..............
 
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RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
''Players run around the ball to hit their best shot (forehand mostly), for Djokovic it doesn't matter''

-RF-18
 

cc0509

Talk Tennis Guru
''Players run around the ball to hit their best shot (forehand mostly), for Djokovic it doesn't matter''

-RF-18

The question was who has the best pair of groundstrokes ever? Don't just look at the players of this era. No doubt Djokovic is very solid off both wings but tennis did not start in 2006.
 
N

Nathaniel_Near

Guest
Another 3-year-old post...

Judas said:
No. All it means is that, Nadal's style of baseline play works really really well on clay. It has worked much less well on grass (despite impressive achievements) and even less well on faster hard courts. Though you will see more net play on the faster surfaces on the whole, the entire calendar year is more or less a baseline game.

Having a great baseline game is not just about having incredible consistency and durability - attributes of attrition that help one to win on clay in general - but also about how quickly and fatally one can strike, variety, and other things I can't think of right now. In general, faster surfaces favour a more aggressive style of baseline play than the clay courts, hence why Roger Federer has seen amazing success on the courts of Wimbledon and the US Open as well as many other tournaments of faster conditions; his baseline game has likely been superior to Nadal's in those sorts of conditions.

It goes without saying that to win on any surface requires all these properties, but certain kinds of surfaces will lend themselves to some sort of attribute bias.

Having the best baseline game is not just about consistency and durability, it isn't just about who can last the longest and who can defend and absorb the attacks of others; it's also about who can strike the strongest and can strike most frequently in an unanswerable fashion.

Right now, Djokovic has an excellent strength in both the defensive and offensive sides of baseline play. Nadal at his best has more defensive strengths than Djokovic but probably less strength offensively. Federer at his best is quite clearly weaker than both defensively and stronger than both offensively.

In short, the clay = Nadal wins argument is naive, I reckon.

***

As an extension to this basic argument, it would be reasonable to conclude that the best baseline players in history are those who have seen the greatest success across a variety of conditions. S & V players can force the issue as much as they like, there's almost always going to be a lot of baseline play in any match. To have major successes on all surfaces you must have an excellent all around and versatile baseline game - one that can adapt fluidly to changing conditions. Going by this, it would be possible to come up with a shortlist of the best baseline players of the Open Era. A list - which is only based on achievements attained during the Open Era (sorry Laver and Rosewall) - might go something like:

Agassi, Borg, Federer, Lendl, and Nadal.


Are these the best of the best? Some names have been left out, I'm sure you will have noticed. Jimmy Connors for his lack of even a Roland Garros final, Novak Djokovicfor the very same reason, and Mats Wilander for not getting close to a final on the faster grass of Wimbledon. Connors did have a lot of success on faster clay variants but on slow red clay he struggled. Though I appreciate that he boycotted Roland Garros out of anger/disagreements for some time, I find it difficult to include him in the very elite group of the very best baseline players in the Open Era.

Achievements attained are ultimately the tangible evidence of excellence from a player, and in this list I cannot include Novak Djokovic. It goes to show that even though we can argue that Djokovic's peak baseline game is equal to or better than Nadal's, ultimately what matters is sustaining those excellent levels. Nadal and Djokovic are roughly the same age, but what has been revealed thus far is that Nadal has been a superior baseline player to Djokovic across the board for more or less the whole of their concurrent careers.
 
N

Nathaniel_Near

Guest
''Players run around the ball to hit their best shot (forehand mostly), for Djokovic it doesn't matter''

-RF-18

That quote also doesn't matter until Djokovic wins many more titles. He has not proven that the Fedalian archetype is yet outdated or inferior. Being balanced does not = superior.

If Djokovic's BH remained the same quality but he had the best forehand in history, he would run around his backhand more frequently than he does to hit a FH.
 

m2nk2

Hall of Fame
I think Borg had better groundstrokes than Djoovic though. Also I add Muster, Agassi and Bruguera on the list too. Really solid groundstrokes on both wings.
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
The question was who has the best pair of groundstrokes ever? Don't just look at the players of this era. No doubt Djokovic is very solid off both wings but tennis did not start in 2006.

Yes, and I answered the question.

He is certainly up there though, not saying it's the best but one of the top.
 

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
''Players run around the ball to hit their best shot (forehand mostly), for Djokovic it doesn't matter''

-RF-18

That has zero to do with how good or bad Nadal's backhand is. Novak running around his FH wouldn't do as much good bc Nadal's FH is better.
 

Sysyphus

Talk Tennis Guru
I agree with the suggestions of Agassi and Borg.

Agassi had fantastic timing on both his groundies, really nonpareil.

The question of best pair of groundies implicitly demands that there be a certain amount of parity between the groundstrokes—Federer and Nadal are not the best options in that sense. Much of their dominance from the ground stems from the fact that, at their best, they are able to take way more than 50% of groundstrokes on their forehand wing.
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
People harp on about Nole's balance but how balanced is he really anyway. Laver, McEnroe and Edberg had an incredible balance of legitimately high quality and dangerous baseline AND net games. They also had terrific returns. McEnroe especially had a wicked serve to boot.
 

SpinToWin

Talk Tennis Guru
Tough one… It kinda depends how you define a good pair of groundstrokes. Is it very balanced groundstrokes such as Djokovic, or is it perhaps groundstrokes which complement each other very well such as Federer's (using his backhand very effectively to set up his forehand), etc.?

There are many ways to define a good pair of groundstrokes, so the answer kinda depends on that I suppose.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Djokovic does run around his backhand anyway - the forehand will always be a better put away shot.
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
That quote also doesn't matter until Djokovic wins many more titles. He has not proven that the Fedalian archetype is yet outdated or inferior. Being balanced does not = superior.

If Djokovic's BH remained the same quality but he had the best forehand in history, he would run around his backhand more frequently than he does to hit a FH.

Well he has already achieved a hell of alot so I think he is worth mentioning atleast.

The guy is pretty much complete off both wings, you can't exploit him and it doesn't matter wich shot he uses. Wich leads us to the thread question, who has the best pair of groundstrokes.

IMO he is up there, but not the best.
 

Sysyphus

Talk Tennis Guru
People harp on about Nole's balance but how balanced is he really anyway. Laver, McEnroe and Edberg had an incredible balance of legitimately high quality and dangerous baseline AND net games. They also had terrific returns. McEnroe especially had a wicked serve to boot.

Definitely. When compared in this sense, he has a less "balanced" or game than those you mentioned in that sense. The comparison is tricky though—the McEnroe type player doesn't really exist today, and when compared to the standard of this era, Djokovic does seem quite balanced in the sense that he ties together offense and defense, and has began attacking the net a bit (not enough?). And of course, most people mean the parity of his groundstrokes, don't they?
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
To me, best means best by test (ergo: results).


If you isolate the strokes then you lose some nuances such as how Federer combines his vastly different stroke types to facilitate his ground-game. A lot of how good his "ground-game" (not individual strokes) is then comes about by how he uses his mind—how he thinks strategically and tactically, and then also his paradigm bias.

Best by test would mean best by results. Whose ground-game has been most integral to their success? Agassi, Borg and Nadal must be mentioned. Also, Federer won all his Slams in era where baseliners preponderate more than the norm.

Agassi, Borg, Federer, Nadal.

On the verge: Lendl, Djokovic, Connors.
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
Big weapon (without a weakness) > Balanced.

Not really, because it's theoretically possible to have two all-time ground-strokes and then you'd be very balanced with two mega weapons. It's just that we haven't really seen this player yet in the history of tennis.

It's not about balanced or biased it's just about how good is it? It's possible for somebody with a ground-stroke bias or with balanced strokes to be the best off the ground but someone is not the best off the ground just because they happen to be balanced or have ground-stroke bias.
 

Sysyphus

Talk Tennis Guru
Big weapon (without a weakness) > Balanced.

Generally I guess I agree. But I think it depends a lot on other stuff. It is worth noting that two of the most successful players of the last years (Murrovic) have been more of the balanced kind without the dominant weapon. I see Nishikori as a part of this type as well in that he has good equilibrium between his groundstrokes.
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
Definitely. When compared in this sense, he has a less "balanced" or game than those you mentioned in that sense. The comparison is tricky though—the McEnroe type player doesn't really exist today, and when compared to the standard of this era, Djokovic does seem quite balanced in the sense that he ties together offense and defense, and has began attacking the net a bit (not enough?). And of course, most people mean the parity of his groundstrokes, don't they?

No, not enough yet. Yes, but parity/balance alone is incredibly misleading.

I'm sure a bunch of top 500 players are balanced.

At the moment, it is true that at least two of the main three contenders that people are bringing up had a tremendous balance and solidity to their ground-games, but that does not preclude someone like Nadal from being in the conversation here... and in my view he surely is.
 
N

Nathaniel_Near

Guest
Another thing to remember is we are discussing two players here who are in the discussion for having the best single ground-stroke in the whole history of tennis.

Try balancing that.


Each player has their own balance which works best the them. The question is, who has the best balance, not who is the most balanced (most equal across wings).
 
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D

Deleted member 716271

Guest
I think just pure groundstrokes is Djokovic.

Ground GAME is possibly Nadal edging out Djokovic
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Not really, because it's theoretically possible to have two all-time ground-strokes and then you'd be very balanced with two mega weapons. It's just that we haven't really seen this player yet in the history of tennis.

It's not about balanced or biased it's just about how good is it? It's possible for somebody with a ground-stroke bias or with balanced strokes to be the best off the ground but someone is not the best off the ground just because they happen to be balanced or have ground-stroke bias.

I thought it was implied that meaning was,

FH 9 BH 7 > FH 8 BH 8

Of course a hypothetical player with a super backhand and forehand will be better than someone with just a super forehand and a good backhand. But I'm not so interested in discussing hypotheticals.

The point is being able to reliably win points in any scenario with great regularity.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Generally I guess I agree. But I think it depends a lot on other stuff. It is worth noting that two of the most successful players of the last years (Murrovic) have been more of the balanced kind without the dominant weapon. I see Nishikori as a part of this type as well in that he has good equilibrium between his groundstrokes.

Murray has a relatively weak forehand.
 

Sysyphus

Talk Tennis Guru
No, not enough yet. Yes, but parity/balance alone is incredibly misleading.

I'm sure a bunch of top 500 players are balanced.

At the moment, it is true that at least two of the main three contenders that people are bringing up had a tremendous balance and solidity to their ground-games, but that does not preclude someone like Nadal from being in the conversation here... and in my view he surely is.

Well yeah, but the remarkable thing with Djokovic is clearly that both of his wings are probably top five in the world, and he is the only player one can say that about. So you see it's not just the balance itself.

re: Nadal, well yeah, that depends a bit on how one wants to look at it. If we are just talking good ground game they have in general, then Nadal is probably top dawg. But the question can (and is by me) interpreted slightly different. It asks about pair of groundstrokes, and that implicitly invokes the notion of parity. To take a hypothetical test: If Nadal and Djokovic both were to hit 50% of all groundstrokes on each wing, then I am quite sure Djokovic would do slightly better. Nadal does do better in practice, but that is by letting his forehand often hit something like 70% of all balls.
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
Another thing to remember is we are discussing two players here who are in the discussion for having the best single ground-stroke in the whole history of tennis.

Try balancing that.


Each player has their own balance which works best the them. The question is, who has the best balance, not who is the most balanced (most equal across wings).

But that was not the question of the thread. Question was who has the best pair of groundstrokes.
 
N

Nathaniel_Near

Guest
I thought it was implied that meaning was,

FH 9 BH 7 > FH 8 BH 8

Of course a hypothetical player with a super backhand and forehand will be better than someone with just a super forehand and a good backhand. But I'm not so interested in discussing hypotheticals.

The point is being able to reliably win points in any scenario with great regularity.

That implication isn't obvious because you assume the answer for the forehand under the assumption (which I believe to be true) that the forehand is overall the more important stroke in tennis. In other words...

FH 9 BH 7 > FH 8 BH 8

FH 7 BH 9 < FH 8 BH 8

This only works if we accept that the marks given to FH and BH are only relative within the individual spheres of the FH and BH strokes. So really, FH 8 BH 8 is more like FH 8 BH 7 if we hold the BH to the same scrutiny as the FH.
 
N

Nathaniel_Near

Guest
But that was not the question of the thread. Question was who has the best pair of groundstrokes.

I think the post is very abundantly and obviously related to the question of the thread.
 

Sysyphus

Talk Tennis Guru
Murray has a relatively weak forehand.

No he doesn't :lol: Come on. I like to diss it a bit myself, but it's not really weak at all. He still runs around to hit forehands quite a bit. It's just that his backhand is maybe the best backhand in the world, and is relatively better compared to other backhands. But his forehand isn't weak by any stretch of the imagination.
 
D

Deleted member 716271

Guest
But that was not the question of the thread. Question was who has the best pair of groundstrokes.

I stand.by Djokovic as having the best pair and Nadal the best ground game.

However, I think NN has interpreted the OP correctly and I disagree with yours and Syssyphus understanding of it.
 

SpinToWin

Talk Tennis Guru
I've thought about it for a bit now and I think the word PAIR needs more attention than it is getting. What is important is not looking at both groundstrokes respectively, but looking at how they work in unison. Djokovic has very balanced groundstrokes, but I don't think they work as well in unison as somebody like Nadal's or Federer's. Agassi certainly belongs in the conversation too, but beyond that I cannot comment much, because I haven't seen previous players live in their time and hence I am biased towards the modern game as my perspective is based on it.

Using NatF's numerical example, I would say that the absolute numbers are misleading, because how good the groundstrokes are as respective shots doesn't say much about how well they work together.
 
N

Nathaniel_Near

Guest
Well yeah, but the remarkable thing with Djokovic is clearly that both of his wings are probably top five in the world, and he is the only player one can say that about. So you see it's not just the balance itself.

re: Nadal, well yeah, that depends a bit on how one wants to look at it. If we are just talking good ground game they have in general, then Nadal is probably top dawg. But the question can (and is by me) interpreted slightly different. It asks about pair of groundstrokes, and that implicitly invokes the notion of parity. To take a hypothetical test: If Nadal and Djokovic both were to hit 50% of all groundstrokes on each wing, then I am quite sure Djokovic would do slightly better. Nadal does do better in practice, but that is by letting his forehand often hit something like 70% of all balls.

This test holds no basis in reality of the two playing against each other (I'm also not sure Djokovic would do better).

Best pair of ground-strokes implies best pair of ground-strokes—best overall aggregate. For the era I'd say it's been Nadal. He happens to not be that balanced but that's pretty much irrelevant for me. His forehand is just too good. We look at overall quality first and style second.

Now back to your test, some reasons why even if we conduct it, though it isn't terrible helpful in the aim of winning tennis matches, I'm not sure Djokovic would win it anyway. Djokovic has the superior first strikes to Nadal overall. Nadal gets his edge against Djokovic off the ground IMO.. and not from serves and returns.
 

tipsa...don'tlikehim!

Talk Tennis Guru
OP is not very clear but here is how I understand it:

you rate both shots FH and BH and add the ratings:

example Agassi FH = 8.5/10 + Agassi BH = 9/10 -> 17.5/10
Nadal FH = 9.5/10 + Nadal BH = 8/10 -> 17.5/10
 

SpinToWin

Talk Tennis Guru
No he doesn't :lol: Come on. I like to diss it a bit myself, but it's not really weak at all. He still runs around to hit forehands quite a bit. It's just that his backhand is maybe the best backhand in the world, and is relatively better compared to other backhands. But his forehand isn't weak by any stretch of the imagination.

Murray has a weak forehand relative to the other top players. Not in absolute terms, but his technique shows obvious limits.
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
Well yeah, but the remarkable thing with Djokovic is clearly that both of his wings are probably top five in the world, and he is the only player one can say that about. So you see it's not just the balance itself.

re: Nadal, well yeah, that depends a bit on how one wants to look at it. If we are just talking good ground game they have in general, then Nadal is probably top dawg. But the question can (and is by me) interpreted slightly different. It asks about pair of groundstrokes, and that implicitly invokes the notion of parity. To take a hypothetical test: If Nadal and Djokovic both were to hit 50% of all groundstrokes on each wing, then I am quite sure Djokovic would do slightly better. Nadal does do better in practice, but that is by letting his forehand often hit something like 70% of all balls.

If Djokovic's BH was like Sock's, I'm pretty sure that people would be talking about what a weapon his FH is.

Ferrer is a balanced player, but how good is that balance?

Djokovic has big weapons, it's just that his attributes is of equal quality (and the quality is high) wich makes it seem like he hasn't got anything that stands out. But the truth is, there is plenty that stands out.
 

Sysyphus

Talk Tennis Guru
This test holds no basis in reality of the two playing against each other.

Best pair of ground-strokes implies best pair of ground-strokes—best overall aggregate. For the era I'd say it's been Nadal. He happens to not be that balanced but that's pretty much irrelevant for me. His forehand is just too good. We look at overall quality first and style second.

It's not the pair of groundstrokes in itself. That Nadal has the best ground game isn't equivalent to him having the best pair of groundstrokes when he hits more of his balls from one particular side than just about any other player. It's not a valid test, and if that was what is being measured, then "best ground game" would have sufficed.
 
N

Nathaniel_Near

Guest
Tough one… It kinda depends how you define a good pair of groundstrokes. Is it very balanced groundstrokes such as Djokovic, or is it perhaps groundstrokes which complement each other very well such as Federer's (using his backhand very effectively to set up his forehand), etc.?

There are many ways to define a good pair of groundstrokes, so the answer kinda depends on that I suppose.

To me, best means best by test (ergo: results).


If you isolate the strokes then you lose some nuances such as how Federer combines his vastly different stroke types to facilitate his ground-game. A lot of how good his "ground-game" (not individual strokes) is then comes about by how he uses his mind—how he thinks strategically and tactically, and then also his paradigm bias.



I've thought about it for a bit now and I think the word PAIR needs more attention than it is getting. What is important is not looking at both groundstrokes respectively, but looking at how they work in unison. Djokovic has very balanced groundstrokes, but I don't think they work as well in unison as somebody like Nadal's or Federer's. Agassi certainly belongs in the conversation too, but beyond that I cannot comment much, because I haven't seen previous players live in their time and hence I am biased towards the modern game as my perspective is based on it.

Using NatF's numerical example, I would say that the absolute numbers are misleading, because how good the groundstrokes are as respective shots doesn't say much about how well they work together.

bold:
I agree entirely.

bold:
And then it gets further complicated because a lot of Nadal's miraculous FH passes for example couldn't be done if he wasn't fast enough to get there, yet we do know them as a staple of Nadal's ground-game play.

When we talk about the ground-game then we involve a lot of other elements of tennis. When we talk about best pair of ground-strokes I still treat it with a view of remaining pertinent to professional tour level game. If we conduct strange hypothetical tests then things get complicated, for example check this thread where I end up concluding that under a different tennis distribution, Federer would overall produce the most successful ground-game (implied).

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=527498
 

SpinToWin

Talk Tennis Guru
It's not the pair of groundstrokes in itself. That Nadal has the best ground game isn't equivalent to him having the best pair of groundstrokes when he hits more of his balls from one particular side than just about any other player. It's not a valid test, and if that was what is being measured, then "best ground game" would have sufficed.

I personally see it differently.

It's like saying best pair of shoes, socks, etc. If one is extremely expensive beautiful and the other is upper class, but they harmonize less well than a less exclusive combination, the better pair could still be the less impressive pair if you only consider the respective items.
 
N

Nathaniel_Near

Guest
It's not the pair of groundstrokes in itself. That Nadal has the best ground game isn't equivalent to him having the best pair of groundstrokes when he hits more of his balls from one particular side than just about any other player. It's not a valid test, and if that was what is being measured, then "best ground game" would have sufficed.

The test suffices because that's tennis. It's based in reality.. the reality of winning tennis matches. If you change the rules then maybe Djokovic wins or Federer wins (as I argue in the thread I linked above). The players have developed their ground strokes for the purpose of winning tennis matches, not for the purpose of being forced to hit 50% off either wing taking movement or real serving + maybe returning out of the equation.

The best pair of ground-strokes are the two who in combination produce the best results on the tour IMO. I agree that there is a lot of confusion in phrasing it in such a way and that it can interpreted differently. The more pertinent and less confusing discussion would be to determine who has the best game from the baseline.
 

Sysyphus

Talk Tennis Guru
I personally see it differently.

It's like saying best pair of shoes, socks, etc. If one is extremely expensive beautiful and the other is upper class, but they harmonize less well than a less exclusive combination, the better pair could still be the less impressive pair if you only consider the respective items.

Then we would just be talking about overall ground game anyways, and no need to really make any further distinctions.
 
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