lambielspins
Banned
The WTA sucks with or without Henin these days. There are you happier.
Who the heck are these good young players you refer to? A bunch of choking slamless wannabees I bet.
Who Is The Best
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The WTA sucks with or without Henin these days. There are you happier.
Who the heck are these good young players you refer to? A bunch of choking slamless wannabees I bet.
jamesblakefan#1
G.O.A.T.
Wozniacki, Azarenka, Cirstea, Radwanska. Most people say stuff like that w/o even giving it a chance.
Mauresmo was a choking slamless wannabe I guess until she beat...Henin to win two slams. So give these players time. I guess it's to be expected tho, since Sampras fans probably stopped watching when he retired.
Mauresmo was a choking slamless wannabe I guess until she beat...Henin to win two slams. So give these players time. I guess it's to be expected tho, since Sampras fans probably stopped watching when he retired.
zagor
Bionic Poster
Look,the polls on this site are mostly joke.Obviously many people prefer Henin's game to Serena's hence the poll results but it doesn't change the fact that Serena has a better career,it's not even a contest.Henin is my favourite player of all time but it's stupid to say she's greater than Serena,she clearly isn't.
lambielspins
Banned
Those players you mentioned havent even been to a slam semifinal yet for crying out loud. Those are your young players people should be getting excited about and stop talking about past greats, ROTFL! Mauresmo wasnt that good anyway but atleast she reached a slam final when she was only 19, beating then World #1 Davenport in the semis to do so.
lambielspins
Banned
While I agree Serena overall had the greater career one thing to remember is Henin was clearly a better player than Serena from 2004-2007. That is 4 straight years which is a pretty long time.
zagor
Bionic Poster
Yes,agree with that but if look at their careers,it's just not close for me.Serena-10 slams with a career slam(or Serena slam because it was in a row),Henin-7 without winning the most prestigious slam.Where is Henin's edge in that? I just don't see it.I wouldn't care even if her H2H with Serena was 15-0 overall,she just can't match Serena's results.
Henin could have overtaken Serena if she stayed and was motivated,it's her own fault she left even though she was owning Serena in 2007.If Henin was playing in her 2007 form right now,she would be picking up slams left and right but she left,that's just the way it is.
jamesblakefan#1
G.O.A.T.
You've gotta give people time to develop. Safina was looked at as a lost cause before her breakthru at the French last yr, now she's #1 in the world. So just give it time, and new stars will emerge. Everyone can't be Seles, you know. But all the players I mentioned have shown signs of having the right stuff and have big wins in their careers. So don't just write them off.
D
Deleted member 21996
Guest
The WTA sucks with or without Henin these days. There are you happier.
if he was talking about shizuka arakawa and irina ****skaya you would probaly have heard of... but since he was talking about tennis players...
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lambielspins
Banned
All Safina does it choke away all her big finals, put on some kind of embarassing freak show each time she is in a big match. A slamless #1 at only 24 years old in the worst field in womens tennis history. She is looking like someone who could set a new all time record for worst record in slam finals ever, and doing it even amongst the worst field ever. So if those players you mention could someday become a Safina that is hardly cause for enthusiasm. The embarassment of Safina at #1 only serves as another benchmark to why people long for any past players of even reasonable substance to return and bolster the field.
I think a reason some people are voting for Henin over Serena is simple. Serena her injury in mid 2003 has fallen off drastically in both quality of play and fitness. She had won only 2 slams in a 5 year span since then. She is all of a sudden starting to win slams again, 3 of the last 9, while not improving her play or fitness any from what it had dropped down to. In other words in many of her recent slams to bolster her career tally she has lucked out to be well past her prime, not recovering any of her old form, and only starting to win more again because of the field collapsing around her- Henin retiring, Clisjters retiring early, Venus even more washed up than Serena, Maria toast with injuries. The people you mentioned are clowns until proven otherwise, sorry.
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zagor
Bionic Poster
Again,Serena might be taking advantage of the sucky field but what stopped Henin from hanging around and doing the same? Serena can only play whomever is in front of her and at the end of the day her numbers blow Henin's numbers away.Plus she's very likely to add to her slam tally before she retires while Henin has finished her career.
jamesblakefan#1
G.O.A.T.
I thought you said Jankovic would own Graf. What happened to that great idea?
D
Deleted member 21996
Guest
Claudius
Professional
hahahahahahaa
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
...probably following Jankovic's career down the same toilet.
jamesblakefan#1
G.O.A.T.
Claudius
Professional
You have lost all credibility by saying Graf isn't top 50. Don't tell me you never said that because you did. Don't post anything about women's tennis again.
julesb
Banned
Graf is an overrated loser. Look at who her slams came against:
87 French- women who turned 31 later that year on her worst surface
88 Australian- 33 year old women
88 French- some bum in her only slam final, Zvereva was her name.
88 Wimbledon- women who turned 32 later that year
88 U.S Open- Gabriela Flakeatini
89 Australian- some clumsy tall storkish lady who lost all 4 of her slam finals, Sukova was her name.
89 Wimbledon- women who turned 32 later that year
89 U.S Open- women who turned 32 later that year
90 Australian- some skinny bulimic looking teenager in her first slam final, who would lose all 3 of her slam finals in her career- Mary Joe Ferandez
91 Wimbledon- Gabriela Flakeatini who choked serving for it
92 Wimbledon- Seles on grass only because Seles couldnt grunt and she sucks on grass anyway- by far her worst surface
93 French- that same bulmic chick who went 0-3 in slam finals
93 Wimbledon- Jana choke Novotna
93 U.S Open- Sukova the stork again
94 Australian- Sanchez moonballing Vicario
95 French- Sanchez moonballing Vicario
95 Wimbledon- Sanchez moonballing Vicario
95 U.S Open- 300 pound Seles with tendonitis in her knee. Still only won because of bad line call in first set.
96 French- Sanchez moonballing Vicario
96 Wimbledon- Sanchez moonballing Vicario
96 U.S Open- 300 pound Seles with terrible shoulder injury.
99 French- the crowd won her this one
87 French- women who turned 31 later that year on her worst surface
88 Australian- 33 year old women
88 French- some bum in her only slam final, Zvereva was her name.
88 Wimbledon- women who turned 32 later that year
88 U.S Open- Gabriela Flakeatini
89 Australian- some clumsy tall storkish lady who lost all 4 of her slam finals, Sukova was her name.
89 Wimbledon- women who turned 32 later that year
89 U.S Open- women who turned 32 later that year
90 Australian- some skinny bulimic looking teenager in her first slam final, who would lose all 3 of her slam finals in her career- Mary Joe Ferandez
91 Wimbledon- Gabriela Flakeatini who choked serving for it
92 Wimbledon- Seles on grass only because Seles couldnt grunt and she sucks on grass anyway- by far her worst surface
93 French- that same bulmic chick who went 0-3 in slam finals
93 Wimbledon- Jana choke Novotna
93 U.S Open- Sukova the stork again
94 Australian- Sanchez moonballing Vicario
95 French- Sanchez moonballing Vicario
95 Wimbledon- Sanchez moonballing Vicario
95 U.S Open- 300 pound Seles with tendonitis in her knee. Still only won because of bad line call in first set.
96 French- Sanchez moonballing Vicario
96 Wimbledon- Sanchez moonballing Vicario
96 U.S Open- 300 pound Seles with terrible shoulder injury.
99 French- the crowd won her this one
jamesblakefan#1
G.O.A.T.
I'm sorry, I was too busy counting to 22 to read your bs reasoning and dumb logic.
Serena was at her peak between may 2002-februari 2003.After that things started to go downhill for her.
Anyhow she annihilated Henin last year 6-2,6-0 in Miami.And Henin was at her peak...
Another clueless poster. You are a complete idiot if you think Henin was still at her peak in 2008. As well Serena was most definitely at her peak all of 2003 until her injury and still lost 2 out of 3 times to Henin who was just starting to be a champion then. She also lost to Henin 2002 when Henin was a nobody. Arent you the one who thinks Kuznetsova won the French only because she played great and nothing to do with the fact Safina basically gave her the match. So many clueless posters on TW these days.
JeMar
Legend
lol, what?
Henin has one more slam, but Serena has all four in the bag, along with multiple doubles majors, as well as Olympic gold. Serena also has the lead in their head to head. Oh, and she didn't flame out at 25.
Now, I much prefer Justine's demeanor and style to Serena, who I find to be practically unwatchable, but Serena's had a much better career than Justine.
Neither played owned the other one. Both had wins over the other at various points in their careers, both have beaten the other on every surface at some point, and they had a huge hole of time they didnt even play as well.
I agree Serena has the better overall career though which is why I voted for her. Not because of doubles though which is pretty much meaningless today, and Henin is the only one of the two that has the Olympic singles gold (the only one that really matters) but Serena has Wimbledon which is far bigger than the Olympic singles gold.
jamesblakefan#1
G.O.A.T.
The one thing I think people are choosing to overlook is that Henin won everything BUT Wimbledon. That's a big deal in my mind. Wimbledon is bigger than the other majors, IMO.
Considering not just that she didn't win it, she didn't win it when she was expected to win it. She lost in 06 to Mauresmo, in what was a toss up match, ok. But that loss to Bartoli in 07, after being in control and looking like that was her year, is inexcusable to me. The fact that she never won Wimbledon is a big hole in her resume, to me, and is what's going to keep Henin from being mentioned as "all-time great".
Considering not just that she didn't win it, she didn't win it when she was expected to win it. She lost in 06 to Mauresmo, in what was a toss up match, ok. But that loss to Bartoli in 07, after being in control and looking like that was her year, is inexcusable to me. The fact that she never won Wimbledon is a big hole in her resume, to me, and is what's going to keep Henin from being mentioned as "all-time great".
Serena did not have an injury February 2003, it was in July of 2003 after Wimbledon. Henin only starting to come into her own had already beaten her 2 out of their 3 meetings that year before the July 2003 injury where I already pointed out was when she started to go down. Like I said you are clueless.
By the way Serena has only started to rise and win more often again since Henin retired. What a coincidence.
Yeah Kuznetsova had to fight so hard vs a tanking/mentally collapsing Safina in that French Open final. Good one. :lol:
Aykhan Mammadov
Hall of Fame
Henin was a player despite she was not naturally very healthy and strong. Her game and backhand was charming as Federers.
jamesblakefan#1
G.O.A.T.
This thread isn't about Graf, GTFO!
JeMar
Legend
Did Steffi Graf like... I dunno, not autograph something for you once? You're way too freaking obsessed over her.
Don't feed the troll!
egn
Hall of Fame
Henin was no nobody in 2002 that is a huge knock to Henin in my opinion and makes her sound less of a force than she was. Henin would have done a lot of damage in 2002 French Open had she not been upset so early. Come on she was top 5 in the world, she had been to a slam final and a semi and grabbed her firs tier 1 title that year. She had established herself as a top player that year. Also Henin did beat Serena twice in 2003 but both were on clay and lets face it Henin in 2003 had one of her best clay seasons ever she was 20-1 won 2 clay master series and the French Open the only clay season shehad better was 2005 when she was 24-0. Henin in 2007 did definitely dominate Serena but Serena in 2007 was nothing like the Serena of 2002-2003 where Henin won on clay and Serena won on everything else. I think there head to head actually is just fine at 7-6, it favors neither really. If Henin and Serena had not been injuried, Serena spent more time dedicated to the game and Henin not quitting early I imagine the two would still be where they are but it would be more like 14-14 or something like that.
Lets face it talent wise they are pretty much the same just they played different styles. Serena was overpowering while Henin was finesse. The two were both amazing players form the past 10 years and both should have accomplished more than they did respectively. Injuries hurt both Serena from 03-05 and Henin from 04-05 and in those periods tennis really suffered. Davenport not winning slams was topping the tour as inconsitent Sharapova, Clijisters, Henin + Williams themselves were in and out. Both in a way benefited at times from the other, Henin benefited in late 03-early 04 with Serena injuried and than due to Serena's lack of dedication, while Serena benefited from Henin's burnout and missing of tournaments. The two as a whole are probably two of the most disappointing players when you think about it. They both have the game but don't seem to have the heart. Henin burned out and Serena is too busy getting caught up in the media. However when it is broken down Serena will always seem to get the edge because she won more and has that career slam. They both had short dominate periods when you compare them to other women greats, both have low slam counts compared to other greats (10,7) compared to (24,22,18,18) yet both were extremely talented. So really this whole arguement should be put to rest and we should focus on attempting to get the two to focus again and start playing up to their level so we can have an actually rivalry and two top players who aren't half assing it.
Case. End and point.
All-rounder
Legend
My opinion Serena
jamesblakefan#1
G.O.A.T.
Nicolas Massu has a gold medal. Is he on the same level as a GS winner? I don't think so. The olympics are a different animal all together, and not enough to equal or be greater than a slam win, IMO. If anything, the Olympics is closer to a tier 1 event than a GS, accomplisment wise.
The fact that it's held every 4 years makes it an anomaly. For instance, if it was in 2003 instead of 2004, what's to say Serena wouldn't have a gold medal instead? I don't know, I have a problem making the Olympic gold that important in this discussion.
And Wimbledon, to me, is far more important than an Olympic Gold.
It is but winning Gold is still a major win for any player
all the top players turn up to the Olympics and they all want to win.
It comes around every four years so it's harder to win
because you will only get two or three chances to play for gold.
grafrules
Banned
Henin's slam results in 2002:
Australian Open- destroyed in 2 lopsided sets by Clijsters in quarters. This was also pre-prime Clijsters, the same Clijsters Henin would own in Clijsters's prime.
French Open- lost in 1st round to some Kapros girl.
Wimbledon- destroyed in semis by Venus. Still by far best slam showing of year with grass being worst surface, something that could even conceivably happen in her prime.
U. S Open- lost in quarters to Hantuchova
She also wasnt top 5 in 2002, she was top 10. At best she was a very marginal top player, not even one of the top 6 or 7 really. Clearly behind Venus, Serena, Davenport, Clijsters, Mauresmo, Capriati, a past her prime Seles. So she was definitely not in her prime yet in 2002. As for winning her first tier 1 title Henin went on to be by light years the best clay courter of her generation, on another planet from Serena, Kuznetsova, or anyone else on that surface, which surely you will concede. So even clearly not in her prime she can be a major contender on that surface, of course in her prime she is untouchable by anyone of the current generation on that surface unless she is sick or injured.
boredone3456
G.O.A.T.
In terms pf most accomplished player of course its Serena, but in terms of total overall talent...I would have to lean in Favor of Henin. Even pre-prime Henin was able to give both Williams sisters difficulties, while prime Henin had little trouble slapping aside Serena in 3 straight slam quarters in 2007. You can say Wimbledon...but if you ask me Serena got lucky to get to the quarters there that year because Hantuchova couldn't capitilize after Serena collapsed with cramps and Serena who was limping around afterwards won, Hantuchova blew a huge chance. Overall in terms of ability I will likely always rate Henin higher, especially given Serena's current fitness and dedication level, with which she is still able to win thanks to the gaggle of choking girls around her. In terms of accomplishment though, Serena wins because of her majors, even though if Henin had stayed that to could have turned out different.
NadalandFedererfan
Banned
I dont see how this is even a question. I respect Henin, the only other truly great player from this generation other than the Williams sisters. However 10 slams > 7 slams. Career slam > no career slam. No comparision. Yeah there ar some years Henin was better than Serena, and in 2007 she was clearly the best player of that year but then she started bad in 2008 and retired. Her career is what it is, and the body of work just does not measure up to Serena overall. A better poll should be who is the 2nd best player of this era between Henin and Venus. Now that is a real question. Yet not only is Henin trouncing Serena on this poll by a distrubingly one sided margin, but Hingis is even included in this poll over Venus who as I said is really neck and neck for Henin as 2nd best of this era and clearly superior to Hingis. The hatred for the Williams on this forum is blindingly apparent.
boredone3456
G.O.A.T.
^^^^ If you want to give it to Serena and the ask the question of whether Venus or Henin is second best to her...there is no question it is Henin. Venus is shaping up to be just a Wimbledon phenomina even though she also has 2 US Opens. Henin also has 2 US Opens and her career outside of Wimbledon blows Venus out of the water (more variety of slams and accomplishment at them, better showings at her worst major, more weeks at number and a longer period of true domination of the rest of the tour). We had a poll about those 2 a while back...and if I remember correctly Henin had the clear advantage.
Good post, players of the past simply suck at tennis.
NadalandFedererfan
Banned
Yes but seeing as another poll has 7 time slam champion Henin crushing 10 time slam champion and winner of the non Calender Slam Serena, how much stock can you put in the results of a poll on TW involving a Williams? As I said it is clear alot of people have a certain bias against the Williams.
I agree it would be nice if Venus's record was more balanced and that is a knock against her somewhat. However Wimbledon is still arguably the biggest event in tennis and Venus winning that 5 times is incredible. Henin's failure to win Wimbledon is a black mark against her. In terms of consistency Henin crushes Venus I would admit. However in terms of longevity Venus has already crushed Henin, with Henin winning all her slams from 2003-2007 and now retired. Venus was winning tier 1 titles before Henin even played her first match on tour, and has won Wimbledon and the WTA Championships after Henin retired. I would probably go with Henin at this point but still think Henin vs Venus is a tough call, and a more reasonable debate than Henin vs Serena.
That Hingis would be put on this poll over Venus at all is yet another additional reflection of a certain bias against the Williams sisters IMO.
boredone3456
G.O.A.T.
The reason Henin is probably crushing Serena in these polls is because people are acknowledging the fact that Serena has had little to no real competition to win her last few slams in a field heavily depleted by the retirement of Henin, the absense of Sharapova and the fact that her Sister hibernates everywhere else except for Wimbledon, the US Open, and occasionally the tour championships. In terms of the most accomplished player its is obviously Serena...but that is not what the poll asks, it asks for the best..and best does not necessarily mean the most accomplished, they are not in some eyes one in the same.
As for Venus, yes its incredible that she has won 5 Wimbledons and may yet add more, but coonsidering how bad the current grass court field is, it would be shocking if she didnt have so many. But for everyone of those she wins, her disparity everywhere else shows all the more. This year she lost in the 3rd round of the first 2 majors, and considering she was seeded to reach at least the quarters of both that is sad. Yes she has always been bad on clay, but it still is as much a mark against her as Henin's inability to win wimbledon.
Despite that Henin made 2 finals there, and either equals or surpasses Venus in slam finals and slam titles everywhere but at Wimbledon. Wimbledon may be the most important, that is up for debate as now the slams are equal more than they may have ever been...but if Venus's 7 slams were all Wimbledon's would anyone really say she was beter than Henin who has one 3 of the 4 and 7 overall herself? I really don't think so. Venus has not played a non Wimbledon slam final since 2003, she has not won a non Wimbledon slam since 2001. She may have more longevity but in that longer career she has accomplished very little outside of Wimbledon. Henin in a shorter spanse accomplished more overall than Venus when as you said...Venus had longer to do it.
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