Why Agassi is greater than Graf

[NadalAgassi]

I know it is hard to compare men and women but I really think Agassi is greater than Graf. Sure he was less dominant and won alot less big titles. However Agasssi had such incredible competition with Sampras at his peak, Becker, Edberg, Courier, grass court greats like Ivanisevic, clay court kings like Muster and Bruguera, and later in his career Federer, Hewitt, and Kuerten.

Graf by contrast slipped through the cracks between the Navratilova and Seles eras (Seles era ended by stabbing) and later between the Seles and Hingis eras. She won almost all her slams in those periods so as odd as it is for a 22 slam champion she was almost an interim champion except she did it twice. She after all won 7 of her first 8 slams between the Navratilova era (
82-87) and Seles era (1990-1993 til stabbing). Then she won 10 more slams in the post Seles era and pre Hingis era (1993-1996). Her toughest rivals were Sanchez and Sabatini, not exactly great competition.

Yet Agassi managed to carve out 8 slams for himself and the career slam even while playing in the midst of the Sampras era. Graf would have probably won even less than 8 if she played her whole career in the era of a truly great player.

Thus Agassi > Graf

 

[li0scc0]

My equation.... NadalAgassi = Moron

 

[Joe Pike]

I know it is hard to compare men and women but I really think Agassi is greater than Graf. Sure he was less dominant and won alot less big titles. However Agasssi had such incredible competition with Sampras at his peak, Becker, Edberg, Courier, grass court greats like Ivanisevic, clay court kings like Muster and Bruguera, and later in his career Federer, Hewitt, and Kuerten.

Graf by contrast slipped through the cracks between the Navratilova and Seles eras (Seles era ended by stabbing) and later between the Seles and Hingis eras. She won almost all her slams in those periods so as odd as it is for a 22 slam champion she was almost an interim champion except she did it twice. She after all won 7 of her first 8 slams between the Navratilova era (
82-87) and Seles era (1990-1993 til stabbing). Then she won 10 more slams in the post Seles era and pre Hingis era (1993-1996). Her toughest rivals were Sanchez and Sabatini, not exactly great competition.

Yet Agassi managed to carve out 8 slams for himself and the career slam even while playing in the midst of the Sampras era. Graf would have probably won even less than 8 if she played her whole career in the era of a truly great player.

Thus Agassi > Graf

Agassi's slam wins came against
- journeymen Medvedev, Martin, Clement & Schüttler (all one-slam-finalists),
- one-slam-wonders Ivanisevic & Stich,
- 2-slam-wonder Kafelnikov
- and Sampras on AO's slow ReboundAce.

That would be Steffi winning 8 slams against
- journeywomen Maleeva, Date, Appelmans & Nagelsen,
- one-slam wonders Majoli and Martinez,
- 2-slam-wonder Pierce
- and Seles at Wimbledon.

 

[rovex]

I find it hilarious how a fanboy Of agassi hates his wife

 

[John_Doe]

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Very well said, I only wish I could understand gibberish.

 

[Joe Pike]

I find it hilarious how a fanboy Of agassi hates his wife

Fan GIRL.
Need I to explain more?

 

[rovex]

Fan GIRL.
Need I to explain more?

I thought davey25 is a boys name?

 

[ATP100]

My equation.... NadalAgassi = Moron

This, and, its, moran.

 

[hoodjem]

I find it hilarious how a fanboy Of agassi hates his wife

It's really the pro-Seles thing. In order to be pro-Seles you have to make a huge issue of the stabbing. And you have to blame it ALL on Graf, as if she was personally holding the knife.

I mean you have to let it control your whole life.

 

[Mustard]

It's really the pro-Seles thing. In order to be pro-Seles you have to make a huge issue of the stabbing. And you have to blame it ALL on Graf, as if she was personally holding the knife.

I mean you have to let it control your whole life.

Rubbish....

 

[hoodjem]

Drink the cool-aid.

 

[LDVTennis]

Thus Agassi > Graf

On leave from the asylum again?

When you go back, tell your doctors the treatments aren't working.

 

[TMF]

At first, reading the title of the thread I thought Andre is greater than Graf about something else other than tennis. I was wrong. Oh well.

 

[NadalAgassi]

Rubbish....

It is not rubbish. Agassi was more impressive than Graf considering his competition was so much more than hers. If Agassi had the equivalent of Sanchez and Sabatini as his main competition for most of his career how many more slams do you think he would have won?

 

[NadalAgassi]

It's really the pro-Seles thing. In order to be pro-Seles you have to make a huge issue of the stabbing. And you have to blame it ALL on Graf, as if she was personally holding the knife.

Forget the stabbing. I am evaluating the competition Graf did have which obviously for an extended period wasnt Seles who was either not on tour yet, 15 years old, or off the tour because of the stabbing. And for awhile an increasingly ancient Navratilova, playing many years beyond when Steffi retired. So in reality what she faced was Sanchez, Sabatini, Sukova, Martinez, and Novotna as her toughest opponents for most of her slams. No legends or all timers in that group.

 

[Manus Domini]

It is not rubbish. Agassi was more impressive than Graf considering his competition was so much more than hers. If Agassi had the equivalent of Sanchez and Sabatini as his main competition for most of his career how many more slams do you think he would have won?

a lot, considering they were women

 

[NadalAgassi]

The male equivalent of Sanchez and Sabatini might be Bruguera (Sanchez) and Nalbandian (Sabatini). Imagine if those were Agassi's toughest competitors for most of Agassi's career, LOL! He would have probably won more than 22 slams.

 

[Manus Domini]

So in other words you have to dumb down Agassi's competition to make him look better? Makes sense.

 

[NadalAgassi]

If Graf had the competition Agassi had she would be lucky to have 6 slams. We all see how she fared vs real competition or something even approaching it:

1986: 29 year old Martina, 31 year old Evert. 0 slams
1987: 30 year old Martina. 1 slam
1990: 16 year old Seles. 1 slam
1991: 17 year old Seles. 1 slam
1992: 18 year old Seles. 1 slam
1994: Sanchez and Pierce in their best years of tennis ever. 1 slam
1997: Hingis at her best. 0 slams
1998: Hingis and Davenport at their best. 0 slams.
1999: Hingis and Davenport at their best. 1 slam

So in her 9 years facing some semblance of competition (still not as much as Agassi most years) she wins only 6 slams. In her 5 years facing total clown competition she gobbled up 16 slams. Imagine Agassi of 1990, 1992, 1994, 1995, 1999, 2001, 2002, facing competition like Graf did those years, he would have probably won the Grand Slam atleast twice.

 

[bms2011]

What's up with all these posts from you bashing Graf. We got that you don't like Graf and don't think she was the GOAT but do you honestly have to keep posting the same thing over and over just using different facts. Just stop. The trolling got old 664 posts ago

 

[John_Doe]

This, and, its, moran.

No, its actually moron.

 

[John_Doe]

Forget the stabbing. I am evaluating the competition Graf did have which obviously for an extended period wasnt Seles who was either not on tour yet, 15 years old, or off the tour because of the stabbing. And for awhile an increasingly ancient Navratilova, playing many years beyond when Steffi retired. So in reality what she faced was Sanchez, Sabatini, Sukova, Martinez, and Novotna as her toughest opponents for most of her slams. No legends or all timers in that group.

So by your illogical logic, then I guess we should also dismiss all of the Grand slams Monica Seles won? Between 1990 and 1993 she won 8 grand slam titles against the likes of an aging Navratilova, Novotna, Sanchez, and of course the worst player of all time Steffi Graf. So if she had actually faced stiff challenges during those years, she might not have won anything!

 

[ATP100]

No, its actually moron.

OH, ty. (maybe it was sarcasm w/pun)

moran

 

[DMan]

If Graf had the competition Agassi had she would be lucky to have 6 slams. We all see how she fared vs real competition or something even approaching it:

1986: 29 year old Martina, 31 year old Evert. 0 slams
1987: 30 year old Martina. 1 slam
1990: 16 year old Seles. 1 slam
1991: 17 year old Seles. 1 slam
1992: 18 year old Seles. 1 slam
1994: Sanchez and Pierce in their best years of tennis ever. 1 slam
1997: Hingis at her best. 0 slams
1998: Hingis and Davenport at their best. 0 slams.
1999: Hingis and Davenport at their best. 1 slam

So in her 9 years facing some semblance of competition (still not as much as Agassi most years) she wins only 6 slams. In her 5 years facing total clown competition she gobbled up 16 slams. Imagine Agassi of 1990, 1992, 1994, 1995, 1999, 2001, 2002, facing competition like Graf did those years, he would have probably won the Grand Slam atleast twice.

Out of mild curiosity, who was Seles' competition? COuld it have been Sanchez? MJ Fernandez? Novotna in her first ever major final? TRying to compare apples to apples here. Not roosetrs to hens (as in trying to compare Agassi vs Graf!)

Curious too, how you left out perhaps the 5 best years of Graf's career: 1988, 1989, 1993, 1995, and 1996.....which happen to be the 5 seasons in which Graf won at least 3 majors! Imagine if we took out Agassi's 5 best years! We'd be looking a mediocre player, who was a 1 slam wonder, wouldn't we?

And by the way, my darling dearest, you still have never answered my simple question:

If Graf was soooooooooo inferior, why oh why couldn't she beat the vastly superior, and obviously more talented Seles more often than she lost to her? Why?

 

[Joe Pike]

... So in reality what she faced was Sanchez, Sabatini, Sukova, Martinez, and Novotna as her toughest opponents for most of her slams. No legends or all timers in that group.

You mean legends like Schüttler, Martin, Clement and Medvedev?
Or all-time greats like Stich, Kafelnikov, Ivanisevic?

 

[Manus Domini]

If Graf had the competition Agassi had she would be lucky to have 6 slams. We all see how she fared vs real competition or something even approaching it:

1986: 29 year old Martina, 31 year old Evert. 0 slams
1987: 30 year old Martina. 1 slam
1990: 16 year old Seles. 1 slam
1991: 17 year old Seles. 1 slam
1992: 18 year old Seles. 1 slam
1994: Sanchez and Pierce in their best years of tennis ever. 1 slam
1997: Hingis at her best. 0 slams
1998: Hingis and Davenport at their best. 0 slams.
1999: Hingis and Davenport at their best. 1 slam

So in her 9 years facing some semblance of competition (still not as much as Agassi most years) she wins only 6 slams. In her 5 years facing total clown competition she gobbled up 16 slams. Imagine Agassi of 1990, 1992, 1994, 1995, 1999, 2001, 2002, facing competition like Graf did those years, he would have probably won the Grand Slam atleast twice.

Or maybe she did, but she was so great to surpass them easily.

 

[Bobby Jr]

NadalAgassi - this is one of the most mind-boggling posts I've seen here. Are you mates with Nadal_Slam_King by any chance? Seriously.

Graf won all her slams fair and square, as did Agassi, playing opponents who were good enough to win six rounds to make the final.

People (like you obviously) seem to look back on history according to how Agassi wrote it so conveniently rose-tinted in his book but in reality he acted like a complete clown left, right and centre for years and had long periods of undedicated slumps and a penchant for mistreating officials and others around him (girlfriends, sponsors etc).

Graf, by contrast, was as good a role model and champion as you will ever see. For years she was completely dominant on the tour, something Agassi never achieved.

On comparing Agassi to some of the competition you mentioned:
Muster - Slams: 1, Masters titles: 8 - times he prevented Agassi from said titles: 0
Bruguera - Slams: 2, Masters titles: 2 - times he prevented Agassi from said titles: 0
Ivanisevic - Slams: 1, Masters titles: 2 - times he prevented Agassi from said titles: 0

Etc etc.. basically, if Agassi was up against these guys as competition they sure didn't have to beat him very often to win their titles... So, if they weren't facing greats like Agassi in their significant wins then the only conclusion is the era must have been weak - for Agassi included.* :idea:

(*Nadal_Slam_King logic alert! :lol

 

[hoodjem]

So, if Agassi can beat Graf in a match, does this mean that he is "greater" than she is.

 

[Joe Pike]

NadalAgassi - this is one of the most mind-boggling posts I've seen here. Are you mates with Nadal_Slam_King by any chance? Seriously.

Graf won all her slams fair and square, as did Agassi, playing opponents who were good enough to win six rounds to make the final.

People (like you obviously) seem to look back on history according to how Agassi wrote it so conveniently rose-tinted in his book but in reality he acted like a complete clown left, right and centre for years and had long periods of undedicated slumps and a penchant for mistreating officials and others around him (girlfriends, sponsors etc).

Graf, by contrast, was as good a role model and champion as you will ever see. For years she was completely dominant on the tour, something Agassi never achieved.

On comparing Agassi to some of the competition you mentioned:
Muster - Slams: 1, Masters titles: 8 - times he prevented Agassi from said titles: 0
Bruguera - Slams: 2, Masters titles: 2 - times he prevented Agassi from said titles: 0
Ivanisevic - Slams: 1, Masters titles: 2 - times he prevented Agassi from said titles: 0

Etc etc.. basically, if Agassi was up against these guys as competition they sure didn't have to beat him very often to win their titles... So, if they weren't facing greats like Agassi in their significant wins then the only conclusion is the era must have been weak - for Agassi included.* :idea:

(*Nadal_Slam_King logic alert! :lol

You must understand "NadalAgassi" - Steffi took Agassi away from her ...

 

[TMF]

Who’s more important to the sport?
Who’s a better role model?
Who’s more richer?
Who’s a better parent?
Who has a better nose?

 

[Joe Pike]

Who’s more important to the sport?
Who’s a better role model?
Who’s more richer?
Who’s a better parent?
Who has a better nose?

Well, we could discuss that girl in your avatar instead.
But wouldn't that be like watching paint dry ... ?

 

[hoodjem]

Who has a better nose?

Is bigger better?

Fed has a pretty big nose.

 

[Zimbo]

So by your illogical logic, then I guess we should also dismiss all of the Grand slams Monica Seles won? Between 1990 and 1993 she won 8 grand slam titles against the likes of an aging Navratilova, Novotna, Sanchez, and of course the worst player of all time Steffi Graf. So if she had actually faced stiff challenges during those years, she might not have won anything!

I never thought about it that way. Great post. I'm waiting for NadalAgassi to reply.

 

[DMan]

I never thought about it that way. Great post. I'm waiting for NadalAgassi to reply.

Please don't hold your breath. I would be worried for your safety.:wink:

There is no logic with NadalAgassi's post. Think of her like a poor wounded kitty, trapped in corner, with no opportunity to ever get out of her predicament. Therefore, her only response is to try and sharpen those ultra dull claws (well, do they even exist?), and lash out at all! Dull claws = sound, sane logical thoughts (and as we all know, this kitty has none!)

It has NEVER worked for Selestials. But it's good theatre (to a point) watching them rehash it over and over. The tired mantra, "But Steffi had no competition!" And yet when you ask them who was Mons' competition, the only one they have to validate Mons is.....Steffi.....after telling us how inferior Steffi is to Mons.....even though Steffi ALWAYS had a winning H2H vs Mons. Yet of course, for Selestials, time began in June 1990 and ended in April 1993, so they are incapable of knowing or understanding anything outside that time frame.

Sad, and pathetic, dontcha think?!:wink:

 

[John_Doe]

I never thought about it that way. Great post. I'm waiting for NadalAgassi to reply.

He won't reply because he has none. That is why he stopped commenting on this post. He uses hypocritical, illogical thinking to justify his erroneous thoughts, typical troll.

 

[TMF]

Is bigger better?

Fed has a pretty big nose.

No, it depends on certain part of the body. You know what I mean?

 

[NLBwell]

Because he married better?

 

[Joe Pike]

Because he married better?

By far, yes.
He is GOAT in this department.

 

[BULLZ1LLA]

Wish Graf made comeback.

 

[sunof tennis]

Do you guys wonder what Steffi ever did to the OP?
Did he ask her out and she correctly assessed him as being insane
and turned him down?
Look, Andre is one of my favorite players ever, but Steffi's record, regardless of the circumstances is unparalled.

 

[BULLZ1LLA]

Graf bh slice + whip forehand unbelievable entertainment.

 

[ClarkC]

I know it is hard to compare men and women but I really think Agassi is greater than Graf. Sure he was less dominant and won a lot less big titles.

Everyone can save a lot of time by reading no farther than this.