Why Azarenka is a better player than Sharapova.

[EloQuent]

For years? Proof? I was under the impression it was only banned several years back (well into Masha's career)...Masha continued to take it for two months afterwards (AO), and was subsequently banned....paid the price, and returned. Am I wrong here?

Doesn't really matter imo when it was banned. The point is that she used a drug to give herself an unfair advantage and we can't evaluate her career without considering that fact. We also don't know what else she's used and never got caught.

 

[AM75]

Really it’s 10 slam finals vs 4. To say that Azarenka is superior in any way is sheer madness.

 

[AM75]

Doesn't really matter imo when it was banned. The point is that she used a drug to give herself an unfair advantage and we can't evaluate her career without considering that fact. We also don't know what else she's used and never got caught.

Shall we start who uses and used what discussion again? One used meldonium other nandrolone. Team of one was stupid enough not to read emails, team of the other asked for TUE in time. At least Sharapova provided her blood sample and didn’t hide in a panic room from doping inspectors.

 

[lewisgibson]

There is a difference between better and greater.

Sharapova is the greater player unless she is stripped of some of her slams for doping, which probably wont happen.

Azarenka is the better one, who just had super bad luck with injuries, timing running into Serena at so many slams she was playing well, and a shorter peak against a better field. She is the better tennis player though, just not the greater one.

 

[EloQuent]

Shall we start who uses and used what discussion again? One used meldonium other nandrolone. Team of one was stupid enough not to read emails, team of the other asked for TUE in time. At least Sharapova provided her blood sample and didn’t hide in a panic room from doping inspectors.

I'm totally fine having that discussion! I was very critical of Serena's evasive behavior too.

 

[AM75]

I'm totally fine having that discussion! I was very critical of Serena's evasive behavior too.

It was done to death on this board already.

 

[lewisgibson]

Really it’s 10 slam finals vs 4. To say that Azarenka is superior in any way is sheer madness.

Clijsters and Capriati have fewer slams than Sanchez Vicario. I certainly hope you don't consider Sanchez Vicario the better tennis player.

I am not saying that applies to Sharapova vs Azarenka or not, but in some cases the inferior player does even up with more big titles. Be it through quality of competition, luck, timing, benefitting from someone being stabbed (Sanchez), benefitting from doping for awhile (Sharapova), etc...

 

[AM75]

Clijsters and Capriati have fewer slams than Sanchez Vicario. I certainly hope you don't consider Sanchez Vicario the better tennis player.

I am not saying that applies to Sharapova vs Azarenka or not, but in some cases the inferior player does even up with more big titles. Be it through quality of competition, luck, timing, benefitting from someone being stabbed (Sanchez), benefitting from doping for awhile (Sharapova), etc...

Sanchez Vicario is actually a better player than Capriarti, and slightly better than Clijsters she just belongs to a completely different context. 14 GS titles combined (singles, doubles, mixed doubles), 12 GS finals. Btw she has won her first French Open years before Seles was stabbed, and was one of the few who could actually cause Graf troubles.

Once again, Sharapova did not benefit from doping. Meldonium is a placebo with no proven effects. There is a lot on this in internet. The reason why it was banned was a political one. It was not banned until 01.2016 thus it was completely legal to take it. Serena, on the other hand, has a verified record of using a banned substance even though within TUEs:

Serena Williams' Therapeutic Use Exemptions (TUEs)
Date for use/Date given/Substance

*Oct 2010 - Mar 2011/23 Dec/Hydromorphone
*Dec 2010/23 Dec/Oxycodone
*Nov 27-Dec 1 2010/23 Dec/Methylprednisolone
*12-19 Mar 2014/13th Mar/Prednisone
*21-30 Mar 2014/2 Apr/Prednisone
*7-21 May 2014/8 May/Prednisone
*10-17 Nov 2014/3 Dec/Prednisone, Oxycodone
*5-10 June 2015/8 Jun/Prednisolone

Azarenka is a great player for sure, but it's probably makes more sense to compare her with Kerber tbh.

 

[lewisgibson]

Sanchez Vicario is actually a better player than Capriarti, and slightly better than Clijsters she just belongs to a completely different context. 14 GS titles combined (singles, doubles, mixed doubles), 12 GS finals. Btw she has won her first French Open years before Seles was stabbed, and was one of the few who could actually cause Graf troubles.

Once again, Sharapova did not benefit from doping. Meldonium is a placebo with no proven effects. There is a lot on this in internet. The reason why it was banned was a political one. It was not banned until 01.2016 thus it was completely legal to take it. Serena, on the other hand, has a verified record of using a banned substance even though within TUEs:

Serena Williams' Therapeutic Use Exemptions (TUEs)
Date for use/Date given/Substance

*Oct 2010 - Mar 2011/23 Dec/Hydromorphone
*Dec 2010/23 Dec/Oxycodone
*Nov 27-Dec 1 2010/23 Dec/Methylprednisolone
*12-19 Mar 2014/13th Mar/Prednisone
*21-30 Mar 2014/2 Apr/Prednisone
*7-21 May 2014/8 May/Prednisone
*10-17 Nov 2014/3 Dec/Prednisone, Oxycodone
*5-10 June 2015/8 Jun/Prednisolone

Azarenka is a great player for sure, but it's probably makes more sense to compare her with Kerber tbh.

It is a mistake to overrate Sanchez due to her record vs Graf. Graf just seemed to have trouble with her playing style and probably made their rivalry far closer than it should been (Graf still led 26-8 and Sabatini has a better win percentage vs Graf than Sanchez does). If you consider Sharapova better than Azarenka you must believe this too as Azarenka in fact leads the head to head with Sharapova, and really owned Sharapova in the years both were closest to their primes together (2012, 2013), especialy on hard courts where she won nearly every encounter, many in lopsided fashion. I am sure you will put that down to Azarenka just being a bad match up for Sharapova, but the same is true of Sanchez for Graf. Sanchez's records vs the other top players of that era tell a less flattering story:

2-18 vs Hingis (ROTFL)
3-17 vs Seles (half the matches post stabbing)
3-12 vs Navratilova (well into her 30s for most of those)

Prime Capriati and prime Clijsters would both destroy Sanchez anywhere but clay. Sanchez is only better on clay, she is definitely not better than either unless you give huge value to doubles.

Back to Sharapova, I think her record is also slightly better than she is, largely through determination and playing so long. Also highly favorable timing which also applies to Halep, Kerber, and some others too. She has the same number of slams as Hingis, and yet to compare her to prime Hingis is pretty laughable. It is clear prime Hingis is a better player than prime Sharapova by a good margin. Azarenka it isn't so clear, but I don't see Sharapova as better than all the players she has the same number or more slams than. I don't consider her a better player than any of Clijsters, Davenport, maybe not even Capriati or Mauresmo; she is 1-3 vs Mauresmo btw, and the matches were all at her true career peak playing level wise of 04-06. Perhaps better than Azarenka but it is a lot closer than the slam title and slam final tally where Sharapova greatly overachieved relative to her peers.

 

[AM75]

It is a mistake to overrate Sanchez due to her record vs Graf. Graf just seemed to have trouble with her playing style and probably made their rivalry far closer than it should been (Graf still led 26-8 and Sabatini has a better win percentage vs Graf than Sanchez does). If you consider Sharapova better than Azarenka you must believe this too as Azarenka in fact leads the head to head with Sharapova, and really owned Sharapova in the years both were closest to their primes together (2012, 2013), especialy on hard courts where she won nearly every encounter, many in lopsided fashion. I am sure you will put that down to Azarenka just being a bad match up for Sharapova, but the same is true of Sanchez for Graf. Sanchez's records vs the other top players of that era tell a less flattering story:

2-18 vs Hingis (ROTFL)
3-17 vs Seles (half the matches post stabbing)
3-12 vs Navratilova (well into her 30s for most of those)

Prime Capriati and prime Clijsters would both destroy Sanchez anywhere but clay. Sanchez is only better on clay, she is definitely not better than either unless you give huge value to doubles.

Back to Sharapova, I think her record is also slightly better than she is, largely through determination and playing so long. Also highly favorable timing which also applies to Halep, Kerber, and some others too. She has the same number of slams as Hingis, and yet to compare her to prime Hingis is pretty laughable. It is clear prime Hingis is a better player than prime Sharapova by a good margin. Azarenka it isn't so clear, but I don't see Sharapova as better than all the players she has the same number or more slams than. I don't consider her a better player than any of Clijsters, Davenport, maybe not even Capriati or Mauresmo; she is 1-3 vs Mauresmo btw, and the matches were all at her true career peak playing level wise of 04-06. Perhaps better than Azarenka but it is a lot closer than the slam title and slam final tally where Sharapova greatly overachieved relative to her peers.

Let me put it this way. There are only 6 women who have achieved a Career Grand Slam. Regardless of all the comparisons, statistics and speculations of who'd beat whom during their "prime", those who have it are better than others. It is as simple as that.

 

[lewisgibson]

Let me put it this way. There are only 6 women who have achieved a Career Grand Slam. Regardless of all the comparisons, statistics and speculations of who'd beat whom during their "prime", those who have it are better than others. It is as simple as that.

OK so Shirley Fry and Sharapova better than Monica Seles, Evonne Goolagong, Suzanne Lenglen, and Justine Henin. Good to know. PS- even saying Sharapova is better than Venus or Henin would sound comical, please do go ahead and say it, I could use a great laugh.

 

[EloQuent]

It was done to death on this board already.

No problem, you brought it up.