Why did Mac and Graf leave the 200g behind?

[Trickster]

I'm confused as to why McEnroe and Graf ditched the Dunlop max 200g rackets...

Looking at the history reels, Graf played some of her best tennis with the 200g, big penetrating forehands and knife-like slice. And Mcenroe well no need to explain his unbelievable tennis with the stick.

I'm curious as to why they moved on from the racket in that era? Many other players (particularly on the mens circuit) continued to use 85-90 (mid rackets). What was it they weren't getting or was it a commercial move?

Thanks
Trickster

 

[jxs653]

Probably for the same reason he ditched wooden racquet? In his biography, he describes such that, if I remember correctly, the first time he tried his little brother's Max 200G he instantly got more oomph.

The game moved- top spin became more important. These guys were getting older- a 12.5 ounce racket with 85sq inch head clearly not as desirable.

Max 200G is noticeably smaller than PS Mid.

Oh BTW, thanks for the video. I enjoyed watching it.

 

[Trickster]

I'm not sure I buy all this... have you seen the kind of power Steffi Graf was getting with the Max 200g? I just don't buy these arguments.

For someone like Graf's game, what was really motivating the switch?

 

[PBODY99]

The cost of making the frame, plus advances in in composite technology left the IMF frames with a unique feel, but not a power boost, compared to say the Wilson Pro staff 7.5.
I do not recall the Graf camp stating a reason

 

[LeoFulgencio]

„Die Zusammenarbeit ist 1995 ausgelaufen, weil wir den Schläger, der im Spritzgussverfahren hergestellt wurde, nicht mehr produziert haben“, so Detlef Grosse. Steffi Graf habe den Dunlop Max 200G geliebt. Dunlop stellte dieses Modell schon seit 1990 nur noch für sie her, verkaufte es nicht mehr auf dem Markt. „Bei Dunlop war man der Meinung, sie solle zu einem anderen Schläger wechseln“, blickt Grosse zurück. Graf wechselte nicht nur den Schläger, sondern auch den Hersteller. Die letzten vier Jahre ihrer Karriere spielte sie mit Wilson-Schlägern."

https://www.op-online.de/sport/loka...s-star-die-dunlop-vertraege-aus-90021227.html

"The partnership ended in 1995 because Dunlop stopped the production of this racket for Steffi. (Graf loved the racket.) The 200G was out of the market already in 1990, they only made rackets for her. The company wanted Graf to change. She changed. Not only the racket, but also the brand."

-

Looking at pictures, I think Steffi played with Wilson from 1994, not 1995.

+

Always the Pro Staff Classic Lite 85 mold from 1994 with different paint jobs. Layup and weight (no Kevlar) was personal suited for her and had nothing common with Stock versions. Low RA up to 60. Because of the end of the Dunlop contract in 1991 she tried Wilson prototypes at the FedCup 1991 (YouTube Graf Hy), but the harsh frames at that time resulted in shoulder injury. Also Yonex was interested to sign Graf for 1992 !
Note: Later in 1992 Dunlop made the Revelation Pro 90 for her and she decided to play it first at Boca Raton 92 but switched in the last moment back to the 200g.

Youtube: Steffi Graf vs Patricia Hy FEDERATION CUP 1991

+ Picture of Steffi with PWS racket at that tournament.

 

[encylopedia]

Have no idea what you're even talking about with Mcenroe? He stuck with the 200g through his entire career to my recollection. He didn't start playing with other racquets until he was doing seniors and exhibitions, and he was promoting various new Dunlop models by then..... a Revelation Select model....the Maxply Mcenroe, etc. So that obviously would have been a factor in him experimenting.

Is he supposed to play with the 200g even in retirement for the rest of his life??? lol.

 

[tennistiger]

Max 200g Pro still was available 1992 in Europe!

 

[retrowagen]

I would suggest that neither player left the Max200g behind; rather, Dunlop left them behind, by discontinuing production of the novel (and difficult to produce) IMF frames. Both pros were looking for new tools of the trade, and certainly looking for an endorsement paycheck, as well—two things that a struggling Dunlop tennis concern really was not in a position to provide. Also, both pros were by this point in time falling down the ranks.

 

[vsbabolat]

I'm not sure I buy all this... have you seen the kind of power Steffi Graf was getting with the Max 200g? I just don't buy these arguments.

For someone like Graf's game, what was really motivating the switch?

Graf switched to a Pro Stock Pro Staff Classic 6.1 85 18x20. McEnroe played with the Max200G until his retirement in 1992. He did towards the end of his career experiment with other racquets but always returned to his Max200G. Now in his 60’s McEnroe is playing with a 95sq.in 16x19 HEAD Radical MP

 

[BumElbow]

I recall Graf's father publicly complaining that Dunlop did not know how to market racquets when the Max 200G was cancelled and Graf lost her endorsement.

 

[big ted]

i think the 200g and F200 were graphite frames that were as close to a wood racquet as there was...
an improvement from a real wood racquet but by the 90s, becoming outdated...

 

[tennistiger]

Graf switched to a Pro Stock Pro Staff Classic 6.1 85 18x20. McEnroe played with the Max200G until his retirement in 1992. He did towards the end of his career experiment with other racquets but always returned to his Max200G. Now in his 60’s McEnroe is playing with a 95sq.in 16x19 HEAD Radical MP

Her frames had a special layup and the frame was much softer than Pro Staff Classic. She tested the 95 version at the Fed Cup 91 and ist was to stiff for her. So she did not switch at that time.

 

[vsbabolat]

Her frames had a special layup and the frame was much softer than Pro Staff Classic. She tested the 95 version at the Fed Cup 91 and ist was to stiff for her. So she did not switch at that time.

She switched to the Pro Stock Pro Staff Classic 85 18x20 that was not sold at retail. Taylor Dent also used this frame in the juniors and when he first played ITF Satellites. I was lucky enough to hit with one from a highly ranked junior in the late 1990’s I would practice with.

 

[Ronaldo]

Shirley Steffi used a medium weight MAX200G. At least 14.5 oz strung

 

[BorgCash]

I was always wondered that these two great players played completely different style of tennis but used one racquet model.

 

[NicoMK]

The game moved- top spin became more important. These guys were getting older- a 12.5 ounce racket with 85sq inch head clearly not as desirable.

Mac returned to tour in 2006 with Jonas Bjorkman. No doubt Dunlop had developed the Maxply Mcenroe in conjunction.

I didn't know he returned to the tour that year and that he even won the tournament with Bjorkman, that's ridiculously crazy

 

[tennistiger]

She switched to the Pro Stock Pro Staff Classic 85 18x20 that was not sold at retail. Taylor Dent also used this frame in the juniors and when he first played ITF Satellites. I was lucky enough to hit with one from a highly ranked junior in the late 1990’s I would practice with.

Yes, it was a 85 version of the Pro Staff Classic/Graphite (lighter Version in rose colour ) mold, but the layup was different from the Classic! I was in Hamburg 1994 at the SF Saturday, the stringing service measured RA strung 58 or 59, I do not remember exact. That matched the talk I had with Hans Martin Reh, Wilson manager for the pros that time. The 68RA stiffness of the Pro Staff Classic was the main problem when she tried this racket 1991.

 

[Ronaldo]

Yes, it was a 85 version of the Pro Staff Classic/Graphite (lighter Version in rose colour ) mold, but the layup was different from the Classic! I was in Hamburg 1994 at the SF Saturday, the stringing service measured RA strung 58 or 59, I do not remember exact. That matched the talk I had with Hans Martin Reh, Wilson manager for the pros that time. The 68RA stiffness of the Pro Staff Classic was the main problem when she tried this racket 1991.

PS 7.5 95 saved my elbow. RA is 54, still own it, all played out.

 

[max]

Probably for the same reason he ditched wooden racquet? In his biography, he describes such that, if I remember correctly, the first time he tried his little brother's Max 200G he instantly got more oomph.

Max 200G is noticeably smaller than PS Mid.

Oh BTW, thanks for the video. I enjoyed watching it.

Owned and played both; both 85 squinch.

 

[max]

Max 200g Pro still was available 1992 in Europe!

yeah, check my moniker here. . . I began using the 200G around 89 or 90, and could buy one from Hollow bird back in 1992. Of course the changing paint scheme, etc., was a way for Dunlop to try to extend the frame's market life a bit more.

I dropped the frame because I was getting to a point where I felt a stiffer racquet would help my serve get more free points. . .

AND of course, let's not forget the onslaught of the Widebodies, and the Widebody Era!

 

[Ronaldo]

One day soon may string my last NOS MAX200G and Revelation 200G up.

 

[big ted]

Owned and played both; both 85 squinch

not to split hairs but i think the 200G was advertised as 84sqin lol

 

[LeoFulgencio]

Tutti i segreti della vecchia, grande Max 200G

 

[galain]

i think the 200g and F200 were graphite frames that were as close to a wood racquet as there was...
an improvement from a real wood racquet but by the 90s, becoming outdated...

I have a Max200G and more F200's than I can count. While they were both soft frames, I really think the Kneissl White Star Pro is the early composite model that really plays like a woodie. The thick throat and tapered head - it's basically the same characteristics as a wood frame - just with more power.

 

[AceyMan]

The game moved- top spin became more important. These guys were getting older- a 12.5 ounce racket with 85sq inch head clearly not as desirable.

Mac returned to tour in 2006 with Jonas Bjorkman. No doubt Dunlop had developed the Maxply Mcenroe in conjunction.

I just have to mention something about this video—

Listen to the audio—the sound of four pairs of shoes squeaking sounds like a massive squirrel fight.

Tennis is as much about footwork as anything else and these post-retirement pros prove that truth. They are shuffling their feet like mad to be in a split step every time the ball is struck, and when they move laterally to intercept a ball they often use mini-steps to get the ball slotted in their strike zone.

Footwork is King.

/Acey

 

[vsbabolat]

I just have to mention something about this video—

Listen to the audio—the sound of four pairs of shoes squeaking sounds like a massive squirrel fight.

Tennis is as much about footwork as anything else and these post-retirement pros prove that truth. They are shuffling their feet like mad to be in a split step every time the ball is struck, and when they move laterally to intercept a ball they often use mini-steps to get the ball slotted in their strike zone.

Footwork is King.

/Acey

Yes, footwork is king. Look how well Federer, djokovic and Nadal move compared to everyone else

 

[Don't Let It Bounce]

Graf switched to a Pro Stock Pro Staff Classic 6.1 85 18x20.

@vsbabolat , do you know if there was any change in the underlying frame when she switched from the white Pro Staff 7.0 paint to the navy PS 7.5 paint, or did she finish her career with the pro stock 85?

 

[vsbabolat]

@vsbabolat , do you know if there was any change in the underlying frame when she switched from the white Pro Staff 7.0 paint to the navy PS 7.5 paint, or did she finish her career with the pro stock 85?

Her entire time with Wilson was the Pro Stock Classic 85 18x20. The only thing that changes was the paint.

 

[Conan]

I’ve seen quite a few variations on the Max 200g,
Does anyone here know:

When Dunlop leather was used

When Fairway leather was used

When Light was printed on the side and when it removed?

Did they produce it in different weights?

The different PJ, were there any differences besides paint.

When the different paint jobs came out did they stop making the classic green and gold chevron, or that continued to be produced?

 

[encylopedia]

I didn't know he returned to the tour that year and that he even won the tournament with Bjorkman, that's ridiculously crazy

That was a one-off. Mac returned to give publicity to the struggling doubles game - at least that's what he claimed.

.....and yes....it's bitter-sweet and a tribute to Mac that at his age, he was able to simply walk in - long into retirement - and not just compete but win a doubles tournament. Bjorkman was over the hill as well!

Another funny incident was that a couple of years before, at age 45 Mac CRUSHED a teenage Andy Murray who was just starting out in the pro ranks in a big-money one night exhibition tournament.

 

[tennistiger]

Her entire time with Wilson was the Pro Stock Classic 85 18x20. The only thing that changes was the paint.

Yes it was that mold but the layup was very different from the Classic one, much softer.

 

[Ronaldo]

Yes it was that mold but the layup was very different from the Classic one, much softer.

Old PSC 7.5 95 had an RA of 54. That racquet and the Yonex SRD 90 & 95 saved my elbow

 

[vsbabolat]

Yes it was that mold but the layup was very different from the Classic one, much softer.

I know, for the 3rd time I’ve hit with one! How many ways do I have to say that?

 

[vsbabolat]

Old PSC 7.5 95 had an RA of 54. That racquet and the Yonex SRD 90 & 95 saved my elbow

Steffi’s Pro Staff was 85, 18x20, and 22mm

 

[Nostradamus]

I'm confused as to why McEnroe and Graf ditched the Dunlop max 200g rackets...

Looking at the history reels, Graf played some of her best tennis with the 200g, big penetrating forehands and knife-like slice. And Mcenroe well no need to explain his unbelievable tennis with the stick.

I'm curious as to why they moved on from the racket in that era? Many other players (particularly on the mens circuit) continued to use 85-90 (mid rackets). What was it they weren't getting or was it a commercial move?

Thanks
Trickster

This stick is OLD, and it is way too heavy with high swing weight. It was great for its time during the 80's, but it's time has passed. now there are much better rackets

 

[tennistiger]

I know, for the 3rd time I’ve hit with one! How many ways do I have to say that?

I was at the Citizen Cup 1994 and saw one of the Rackets measuring at the stringing service and it was strung under 60 RA. I also had a talk with Wilson manager Hans Martin Reh who explained the racket change. It was the Classic 85 mold but a very different layup compared to the normal 95 Classic she first tried in 1991. Sawing through your tested racket would have shown that.
May be it is only a Problem of Feeling. Smaller headsizes often feel stiffer and more stable than the RA says compared to same racket in bigger sizes. So both can be possible. The Yamaha EOS ist a good example for that. The 97 feels stiffer although the RA ist lower than the 110.

 

[vsbabolat]

I was at the Citizen Cup 1994 and saw one of the Rackets measuring at the stringing service and it was strung under 60 RA. I also had a talk with Wilson manager Hans Martin Reh who explained the racket change. It was the Classic 85 mold but a very different layup compared to the normal 95 Classic she first tried in 1991. Sawing through your tested racket would have shown that.
May be it is only a Problem of Feeling. Smaller headsizes often feel stiffer and more stable than the RA says compared to same racket in bigger sizes. So both can be possible. The Yamaha EOS ist a good example for that. The 97 feels stiffer although the RA ist lower than the 110.

I thought the Classic 85 played more flexible that Classic 6.1 95. Very nice racquet and a real shame Wilson didn’t sell it.

 

[max_brat]

This stick is OLD, and it is way too heavy with high swing weight. It was great for its time during the 80's, but it's time has passed. now there are much better rackets

It's okay to be wrong.

 

[slipgrip93]

I recall while watching during wimbledon on tv in the 00's, McEnroe who was announcing, commented to the co-host that he felt his new racquet that he was using improved his serve to be more powerful than his old one. (max200g, presumably. i don't know which new racquet he was referring to at the time)

 

[Ronaldo]

I recall while watching during wimbledon on tv in the 00's, McEnroe who was announcing, commented to the co-host that he felt his new racquet that he was using improved his serve to be more powerful than his old one. (max200g, presumably. i don't know which new racquet he was referring to at the time)

Could be the Maxply McEnroe,

 

[max]

fwiw, he used a Volkl C-10 for a time.

 

[Ronaldo]

fwiw, he used a Volkl C-10 for a time.

 

[yonexRx32]

It's okay to be wrong.

.. no, not really.. but we can't fix that..

 

[yonexRx32]

Could be the Maxply McEnroe,

no .. he was promoting the maxply mcenroe and saying it was more powerful than his old 200g. I remember his comments because I was looking to buy a maxply mcenroe at the time..

 

[Ronaldo]

no .. he was promoting the maxply mcenroe and saying it was more powerful than his old 200g. I remember his comments because I was looking to buy a maxply mcenroe at the time..

I own a Maxply mcenroe, its a tweener

 

[Grafil Injection]

I’ve seen quite a few variations on the Max 200g,
Does anyone here know:

When Dunlop leather was used

When Fairway leather was used

When Light was printed on the side and when it removed?

Did they produce it in different weights?

The different PJ, were there any differences besides paint.

When the different paint jobs came out did they stop making the classic green and gold chevron, or that continued to be produced?

1 / 2. Dunlop leather grips were used throughout, but they were probably made by Fairway, as the factories were quite nearby. First the gold lettering black on the 'Graphite' models, then Dunlop embossed type in dark brown, tan, teal and blue. It's likely that Fairway made the grips for Dunlop because the various coloured Dunlop grips are thin but heavy, like Fairways. I've also seen classic tan coloured Fairways with no Dunlop writing on some new 200Gs but I don't think it was ever unique to a version, just probably used for a few batches / countries. The Golden Grand Slam is the one model that had Fairway shown on the grip, which is in black with Fairway as well as GGS written in gold. Fairway also made grips for other large companies like Prince, Wilson, Head and PK. Sometimes they are labeled Fairway, sometimes not.

3. Light and other weights were written on the weight label for the first version 'Graphite'. After that the round label had L, LM etc written.

4. Yes, L, LM, M are specified on the placard, each with about a 1/2 ounce range, so the lightest to the heaviest could be 1.5 ounces or about 40g different. (about 360-400g strung).

5. The only differences in models is the very rare first tapered (22-18mm) 'Graphite', and that the last two paintjobs (Glossy Pro and Pro III Blue) had a 1-inch longer handle mould.

6. Yes, Grafil Injection and GGS continued into 1989, but were officially replaced with Teal (89), then Glossy (90), then the final Blue version (91-3). But, some retailers no doubt had stocks of the classic models for sale until the end. The classics (Graphite, Graphite Injection, Grafil Injection) made up about 85% of sales, so are far more common used.

 

[Crocodile]

I think it would be great to interview ( if it hasn’t already been done or written about) players like Steffi and John as to how it really was back then.
The thing that I found about the whole matter was that even back then some pros were meticulous about all aspects of their game including their equipment and if they could get an advantage by using a better frame then they would do it. And sponsorship money played its role as well.

 

[Crocodile]

Supplementary thoughts on this topic - I’ve been thinking that when one is living in the times ( or within the times ) we may not be aware of the magnitude of changes that are going around us especially if you are a young person. It takes incredible introspection to see things from a broader type perspective.
The 1980’s in tennis racquets was a massive time of change in materials and design but this was magnified by the fact that back then the racquet companies that were manufacturers made racquets in different countries, they weren’t all made in China like they are now ( with the exception of Yonex ). So you had racquets coming from England, the US, Belgium, France, Austria, W Germany, Taiwan and Australia. With racquets coming from all these different countries it was possible for companies to secretly work on new technologies and then spring them on to the market shocking the rest of the industry. Here in Australia the Australian subsidiary of Dunlop and Slazenger were still trying to sell to the public aluminium and wooden frames when Taiwanese brand Emrik started to flood the market with open throat composites and graphite frames. It probably took a good six months to a year for the others to wake up and catch up with the technology.
So back then you you had a lot of different designs, you had for example Prince making 110sq inch frames while others were just doing 80sq inch frames.
Looking at today ( 2023) with everything made at the same place I don’t feel there is that massive difference in product offerings from the various brands. Probably in the last 5 years it’s Wilson that has offered something helpful to the recreational market with the Clash but before that you have to go right back to Pro Kennex with their destiny frame and their kinetic technology and Volkl with they big grommets and catapult system in their V1 franchise.
I would imagine back in Steffi’s time the switch between brands and new models of the same brand would have resulted in more significant improvements.
Last year I had a chance to hit with an “as new” 200g and the feel was lovely but playing a match and you realised how clunky it was and how much it sucked the energy out of your serve. Moving to the Wilson 7.5 Pro Staff at the time was a more playable option. I also remember Martina Navratilova testing the 200g when she was still using that very long isometric brown Yonex R7 to see if there was a difference and she used the Dunlop at Wimbledon. Interesting in the latter part of her doubles career she used a Bosworth 96, same design that Radek used,

 

[teachingprotx]

She switched to the Pro Stock Pro Staff Classic 85 18x20 that was not sold at retail. Taylor Dent also used this frame in the juniors and when he first played ITF Satellites. I was lucky enough to hit with one from a highly ranked junior in the late 1990’s I would practice with.

Vs ! How did it play buddy ? Otherwise. Was it like 200 g soft ?

 

[Grafil Injection]

Supplementary thoughts on this topic - I’ve been thinking that when one is living in the times ( or within the times ) we may not be aware of the magnitude of changes that are going around us especially if you are a young person. It takes incredible introspection to see things from a broader type perspective.
The 1980’s in tennis racquets was a massive time of change in materials and design but this was magnified by the fact that back then the racquet companies that were manufacturers made racquets in different countries, they weren’t all made in China like they are now ( with the exception of Yonex ). So you had racquets coming from England, the US, Belgium, France, Austria, W Germany, Taiwan and Australia. With racquets coming from all these different countries it was possible for companies to secretly work on new technologies and then spring them on to the market shocking the rest of the industry. Here in Australia the Australian subsidiary of Dunlop and Slazenger were still trying to sell to the public aluminium and wooden frames when Taiwanese brand Emrik started to flood the market with open throat composites and graphite frames. It probably took a good six months to a year for the others to wake up and catch up with the technology.
So back then you you had a lot of different designs, you had for example Prince making 110sq inch frames while others were just doing 80sq inch frames.
Looking at today ( 2023) with everything made at the same place I don’t feel there is that massive difference in product offerings from the various brands. Probably in the last 5 years it’s Wilson that has offered something helpful to the recreational market with the Clash but before that you have to go right back to Pro Kennex with their destiny frame and their kinetic technology and Volkl with they big grommets and catapult system in their V1 franchise.
I would imagine back in Steffi’s time the switch between brands and new models of the same brand would have resulted in more significant improvements.
Last year I had a chance to hit with an “as new” 200g and the feel was lovely but playing a match and you realised how clunky it was and how much it sucked the energy out of your serve. Moving to the Wilson 7.5 Pro Staff at the time was a more playable option. I also remember Martina Navratilova testing the 200g when she was still using that very long isometric brown Yonex R7 to see if there was a difference and she used the Dunlop at Wimbledon. Interesting in the latter part of her doubles career she used a Bosworth 96, same design that Radek used,

Totally agree about the amazing diversity in rackets through the 70s and 80s. Even just one maker like Dunlop had at least 5 different factories around the world, producing totally different types of rackets in all possible substances.

Regarding Steffi's switch to Wilson, I don't think there would be much difference in playability since Wilson basically customised it to her requirements. Her 85sqi Pro-Staff was supposed to be just as flexible as the 200G (noting that the 200G's 42 RA translates to about a high 50s level of power IME). Only the larger head rackets that Steffi never used, like 95sqi+, really made a difference in terms of easy power and spin.

Martina used a 'Donex 200G' (200G with Yonex stencil) to win Wimbledon in 1987 (and US Open), then a 'Maxtina 200G' (200G with MN stencil) to come second in 1988. The subsequent RQ-180 is a lovely racket too, a little more playable because it's 92sqi and just 26.75'' long, but not hugely different to a 200G in terms of performance.