Why do people say Djokovic is a match up problem for Nadal?

[Shady_Sawyer]

I dont get it. Nadal has beaten him 16 times across all surfaces and now all of a sudden in 2011 Djokovic is a match up problem for Nadal? Sorry *******s. Lets just be honest and admit that Djokovic has more mental toughness than Nadal this year and its the reason why he has lost the last 5 matches. The same Nadal Federer scenario except that this time Nadal is the victim. Plain and simple.Comments.

 

[FlamEnemY]

Djokovic's game always was a good match-up against Nadal.

It's the execution that was the problem, not the game plan and relative strengths and weaknesses of the players.

 

[MotherMarjorie]

During the Wimbledon final, you could see Nadal's frustration written all over his face. Its the first time Mother Marjorie has seen that sort of outward display of frustration by Nadal. It was the same look Federer used to get when he first began playing Nadal.

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

 

[Talker]

Djokovic is a matchup problem for anyone.
His increased endurance lets him play tennis without fatigue setting in, it effects his mental status I would guess.

I'm more interested in the upcoming HC season and USO, players have a little time off to go over things and figure out what needs to be worked on.

Nadal has to do something to turn this around, too much longer without beating Djokovic would effect how Nadal is seen historically.

 

[Sentinel]

Prior to 2011, the score was 16-7 in Nadal's favor, and, I have not looked at all those matches to confirm this, but I read that broke down as follows:

9-0 on clay, 7-7 on all other surfaces, so, as is the case with somebody else I can think of, Nadal isn't dominant on ALL surfaces, just one.

Djoke is, what, 6'2", and has a two handed backhand, so the left crosscourt lefty forehand that bothers Fed so much does not bother Djoke, given that his backhand is arguably his best shot, he probably welcomes it. It's no secret that fairly tall guys with two handed backhands have enjoyed some success against him-Tsonga, Soderling, DelPotro(don't understand the Ferrer deal, and I'm guessing David may be banished from Spain if it happens again, lol). The 5-0 result THIS year, of course, IS on ALL surfaces, including 4 straight sets on Nadal's favorite surface, so that would indicate that a) previously, Djoke was neither physically or mentally tough enough, as you pointed out, to get the job done, but he IS younger, and could therefore be more expected to improve and b) given that the matches are on all surfaces, save indoor carpet, that might indicate the problem is harder to overcome than Nadal's dominance prior to this year, or, put another way, prior to this year, I'd have expected Nadal to be supremely confident vs. Djoke on dirt, on other surfaces, not so much-why should he, with a .500 record? Right now, Djoke is supremely confident vs Nadal EVERYWHERE, he's only been extended to the distance once in those five matches. In what area of the game right now is Nadal superior? Nowhere I can think of, and that includes off the ground. What's Nadal gonna do in his bread and butter area, hit even harder and make more errors, or hit with even more topspin and have more groundies land short in the court? And who has Nadal adjusted to successfully thus far, let alone adjusted to who is playing so well? Soderling, who has reached one Slam final in his career? I'd say the jury is still out on Del Potro, who is still not completely back after his year layoff and against whom Nadal had to resort to gamesmanship to beat in a fairly tough match. I think people are underestimating just how much into Nadal's head Djoke is, and an example of that is the 30-30 point in match game with Djoke serving, obviously a big point, it'll either be match point for Djoke or breaker for Nadal, and, for the first time in the entire match, Djoke plays serve and volley. Against virtually anybody else in that situation, Nadal's eyes would've gotten the size of saucers, he'd have said, "Muchos gracias!" and hit a screaming winner on the pass. Instead, he served up a high, floating meatball that Djoke knifed away for an easy volley winner, then Nadal quickly and meekly went out on match point. I'm surprised he didn't run sobbing into Uncle Phony's lap. Add to all of the above the fact that we're now in the part of the year where Nadal normally starts to exhibit "fatigue," (that is, when he's not floating stress fracture rumors along with a 6 week layoff, then retracting them), and I like his chances of prevailing against Djoke even less, if he gets to play him at all.

You write very well, that line caught my eye.

 

[DarthFed]

Djokovic is a matchup problem for anyone.
His increased endurance lets him play tennis without fatigue setting in, it effects his mental status I would guess.

I'm more interested in the upcoming HC season and USO, players have a little time off to go over things and figure out what needs to be worked on.

Nadal has to do something to turn this around, too much longer without beating Djokovic would effect how Nadal is seen historically.

why? did he suddenly lose his 10 slams? Is his dominence on clay suddenly forgotten? This argument is as bad for Nadal as it was for fed

 

[Murrayfan31]

Djokovic was tough for Nadal before. Djokovic improved a lot. Now he owns Nadal.

 

[DarthFed]

Fed never lost 5 straight times on 3 different surfaces in a 6 month period to Nadal. One year he lost 4, then won Wimbledon, Big difference. You wanna shrug off 5-0 as too small a sample, that's your prerogative, but others of us know better.

You've got the wrong idea lol...I'm not shrugging it off...I'm not a rafa fan in any way but i don't see how this calls questions to his achievements.

 

[FedExpress 333]

Prior to 2011, the score was 16-7 in Nadal's favor, and, I have not looked at all those matches to confirm this, but I read that broke down as follows:

9-0 on clay, 7-7 on all other surfaces, so, as is the case with somebody else I can think of, Nadal isn't dominant on ALL surfaces, just one.

Djoke is, what, 6'2", and has a two handed backhand, so the left crosscourt lefty forehand that bothers Fed so much does not bother Djoke, given that his backhand is arguably his best shot, he probably welcomes it. It's no secret that fairly tall guys with two handed backhands have enjoyed some success against him-Tsonga, Soderling, DelPotro(don't understand the Ferrer deal, and I'm guessing David may be banished from Spain if it happens again, lol). The 5-0 result THIS year, of course, IS on ALL surfaces, including 4 straight sets on Nadal's favorite surface, so that would indicate that a) previously, Djoke was neither physically or mentally tough enough, as you pointed out, to get the job done, but he IS younger, and could therefore be more expected to improve and b) given that the matches are on all surfaces, save indoor carpet, that might indicate the problem is harder to overcome than Nadal's dominance prior to this year, or, put another way, prior to this year, I'd have expected Nadal to be supremely confident vs. Djoke on dirt, on other surfaces, not so much-why should he, with a .500 record? Right now, Djoke is supremely confident vs Nadal EVERYWHERE, he's only been extended to the distance once in those five matches. In what area of the game right now is Nadal superior? Nowhere I can think of, and that includes off the ground. What's Nadal gonna do in his bread and butter area, hit even harder and make more errors, or hit with even more topspin and have more groundies land short in the court? And who has Nadal adjusted to successfully thus far, let alone adjusted to who is playing so well? Soderling, who has reached one Slam final in his career? I'd say the jury is still out on Del Potro, who is still not completely back after his year layoff and against whom Nadal had to resort to gamesmanship to beat in a fairly tough match. I think people are underestimating just how much into Nadal's head Djoke is, and an example of that is the 30-30 point in match game with Djoke serving, obviously a big point, it'll either be match point for Djoke or breaker for Nadal, and, for the first time in the entire match, Djoke plays serve and volley. Against virtually anybody else in that situation, Nadal's eyes would've gotten the size of saucers, he'd have said, "Muchos gracias!" and hit a screaming winner on the pass. Instead, he served up a high, floating meatball that Djoke knifed away for an easy volley winner, then Nadal quickly and meekly went out on match point. I'm surprised he didn't run sobbing into Uncle Phony's lap. Add to all of the above the fact that we're now in the part of the year where Nadal normally starts to exhibit "fatigue," (that is, when he's not floating stress fracture rumors along with a 6 week layoff, then retracting them), and I like his chances of prevailing against Djoke even less, if he gets to play him at all.

Great post.

Guess Nadal ****s will have to admit that Ndals one dimensional, boring, moonball to the bh game is NOT good enough aginst Djokovic.

 

[Netzroller]

Let's be clear on the definition first, because everyone seems to have a different opinion about what a 'bad match up' means:

Imo, A match up issue when one player has significantly different results against another player than you would expect from their overall performances. Overall performance can be evaluated by their results against other players, ranking etc. Additionally, this is due to strategic aspects, not psychological issues (choking) or lack of fitness.
An example would be that one player dominates another player in spite of those two being about equally good/succesful.
If one player strugges beating another player even though he is clearly better (as indicated by their results and ranking) this is also a match up issue.
However, a better player beating an inferior player is no bad match up, he's just better.



I wouldn't really agree that Rafa vs. Nole is a match up problem, maybe a little. Neither player has a simple strategy that effectively takes advantage of some weakness of the other guys. I think it's more like all of Rafa's weapons don't hurt Nole too much. Nole doesn't struggle with high kicking topspin shots, extreme angles and long rallies. This might be true for others as well, but none of them has Noles calibre.
Their matches have usually been very close. Until this year, Rafa was overall better and overall beating him more often. This year, the situation is reversed.
Moreover, Nole doesn't really play that different against Rafa now than he did in the past. He does the same things, he just does them better now. If there was a big match up issue, it should have shown in the past already.
Given are very complete players and have no obvious weakness that can be exploited I don't expect either to come up with any winning strategy that completely changes their matches. If they're both fit and mentally though, it's going to be a long battle with the currently better player winning.

 

[Netzroller]

Great post.

Guess Nadal ****s will have to admit that Ndals one dimensional, boring, moonball to the bh game is NOT good enough aginst Djokovic.

lousy post.

 

[Murrayfan31]

Great post.

Guess Nadal ****s will have to admit that Ndals one dimensional, boring, moonball to the bh game is NOT good enough aginst Djokovic.

Well what does that say about Federer then?

 

[Bhagi Katbamna]

Bad matchup because Nadal's strong shot goes to Djoker's strong shot(back hand) and Djoker is used to running to that side. When Djoker hits a good crosscourt backhand, he hits it to a relatively weaker defending side. Nadal is not used to running to the forehand corner and is more used to hitting forehands from his backhand side. And of course, Djoker's forehand cross court goes to Nadal's weak side--this really hurt him in the final.

 

[FedExpress 333]

Well what does that say about Federer then?

It says Federer is lusy at hitting high bhs.

 

[Mustard]

I dont get it. Nadal has beaten him 16 times across all surfaces and now all of a sudden in 2011 Djokovic is a match up problem for Nadal? Sorry *******s. Lets just be honest and admit that Djokovic has more mental toughness than Nadal this year and its the reason why he has lost the last 5 matches. The same Nadal Federer scenario except that this time Nadal is the victim. Plain and simple.Comments.

Djokovic has always been a tough match-up for Nadal in terms of their gamestyles. The difference is that before 2011, Nadal's mental and physical toughness would always see him over the line in matches on clay or grass, or in an epic match on any surface. This edge Nadal has had over Djokovic in the crucial moments has obviously diminished since the start of 2011 because Djokovic is now physically fitter and seems to have found that extra few percent to his whole approach and to his tennis game.

 

[CDestroyer]

So in summary if Djokovic continues playing very well he will have successfully GOAT Blocked (tm) Nadal.

In my view Fed and Sampras have had far better careers than Nadal as of today.

 

[DarthFed]

My apologies, actually I think it's that quite a few people have been saying that either a) Nadal is greater than Fed or b) he ultimately will be. Those who chose a) usually bring in the head to head up, and say, how can you be the GOAT when you weren't even the greatest of your own era, ignoring the fact that when one player's record or accomplishments are clearly superior to another's, head to head doesn't matter much. Those who argue b) like to say that Nadal is a few months younger with his 10 Slams than Fed was when HE had 10 Slams, overlooking the fact that all player ages are not created the same: look at the way Fed plays and glides around the court, very few injuries in his career, and look at the way Nadal plays, a grinder, always seems to have some sort of ailment or another, real or imagined (and the fact that guys who excel on dirt don't seem to have the longest of careers, i.e., Borg's mind burned out, and Guga's body did), is it reasonable to assume that Nadal at 25 is likely farther along than Fed was? I think so. Lastly, the " how can you be the GOAT when you weren't even the greatest of your own era," argument has suddenly been turned around against Nadal GOAT supporters, despite the fact that the GS gap between Djoke and Nadal is even larger than than it is between Nadal and Fed. So, I wouldn't say that Nadal's accomplishments have been diminished, per se, but the recent results have cooled off all that GOAT talk considerably.

Yeah i agree, as fun as it is to see rafatards get a taste of what they've been dishing out, i find it silly people use H2H to diminish any player its so silly. 0-5 against Djoker in 2011 is never greater than 10 slams and being a CC GOAT or having a career slam, and 17-8 or w/e the H2H is is never greater than..well feds wiki page of achievements. This H2H argument only surfaced once fed came along...im positive no one was saying the people with positive H2H against ole pistol pete were superior. I also don't get why despite his obvious superior records (like that GS thread in pro match results shows) fed isn't the best of his own era

I would hope that eventually people stop trying to diminish others impressive accomplishments (some rafa fans trying to diminish nole's borderline godlike year and wondering if people have gone crazy, and forgetting that rafa isnt the only person he owned, it's the whole tour as well) because it always comes back to bite them.

 

[Mustard]

So in summary if Djokovic continues playing very well he will have successfully GOAT Blocked (tm) Nadal.

It can change back to Nadal's favour, if he can be more consistenly aggressive is his game and rediscover an edge of some sort at the crucial moments. When Nadal has played Djokovic in 2011, he has lost that clutchness at the crucial moments. For example, Djokovic converted 5 out of 6 break points in the Wimbledon final. One of the big pillars of Nadal's success has been his ability to win the most crucial points of a match, and he just hasn't been doing that against Djokovic this year. Djokovic has closed that gap there used to be between himself and Nadal in the mental and physical stakes. Nadal has to rediscover that edge.

 

[dingo]

It's not like Novak blew Rafa off court in that final. He just kept the ball in play on many a points, while Rafa was trying to go for a little bit more at the same time. I thought Rafa just was not patient enough in that match... as much as it feels odd to say this about Nadal. Novak IMHO just frustrates people with his defense skills. I thought Rafa instead of trying to pull a trigger after 10 balls should said to himself "OK, you want to hit 30 ball rallies? Let do it!" Instead he seemed frustrated that Novak hit everything back.

 

[bluetrain4]

I dont get it. Nadal has beaten him 16 times across all surfaces and now all of a sudden in 2011 Djokovic is a match up problem for Nadal? Sorry *******s. Lets just be honest and admit that Djokovic has more mental toughness than Nadal this year and its the reason why he has lost the last 5 matches. The same Nadal Federer scenario except that this time Nadal is the victim. Plain and simple.Comments.

How can you not "get it"? He's beaten him five times in a row on all surfaces. If you're one of the top players, as Nadal is, that's a problem. The matchup is a problem because what works for Nadal against everyone else, doesn't work against Djokovic. Novak's game, to varying degrees depending on the match, neutralizes Nadal's game. As has been stated, the cross court Nadal forehand into Novak's backhand isn't as effective. The incredible movement and ability to run down shots forcing an error from the opponent isn't as effective. Djokovic runs down as many balls and moves just as well. I don't think I've ever seen Nadal appear as if he's pressing as much as I have in these last few months vs. Djokovic.

That Nadal has had past success against Novak doesn't dimish the current "problem."

And, all that's being said is that currently Djokovic is a matchup "problem" for Nadal. Not an unsolvable problem or an "impossibility", but merely a problem. And, the most recent results speak for themselves.

 

[Mustard]

Before 2011
1. All 7 of Djokovic's wins over Nadal were in straight sets on hardcourt, and never in a major nor in any tournament final.

2. Nadal would always win their matches if they were played on clay or grass, and also if the match was an epic and/or in a major.


In 2011
It's all been changed piece by piece.

1. The Indian Wells final saw Djokovic not only beat Nadal in a final for the first time, but also beat Nadal from a set down for the first time and with Nadal having shown 2010 US Open form in the first set of the match.

2. The Miami final again saw Djokovic beat Nadal from a set down in a tournament final. Another change here was that Nadal didn't take his crucial chances in the third set, while Djokovic did and he also looked fitter towards the end of the match than Nadal.

3. The Madrid final saw Djokovic beat Nadal on clay for the first time, and in 2 relatively comfortable sets.

4. The Rome final saw Djokovic again beat Nadal on clay, and Djokovic looked more clutch at the crucial and in control of most of the rallies. Nadal, though, does play better than in the Madrid final.

5. The Wimbledon final saw Djokovic be better than Nadal at taking the most crucial points of a match, and he beats Nadal in a major for the first time, and in a major final to boot.

 

[OddJack]

Why? Because they are looking for excuses.

 

[juanparty]

Do not compare, "chicken Federer" - Nadal to Djokovic-Nadal.
Federer is a coward against Nadal.

 

[Raphael]

Its interesting that nadal fans, who have used this same argument to justify how nadal beats federer, don't like it when people use it against him when it comes to playing novak.

Hmm...That sentence isn't as clear as I'd like, but I'm too tired to revise. I think you get the idea.

 

[Dgpsx7]

I think Nadal is a bad matchup for Federer because of the obviously righty with a 1hbh vs a lefty with an extremely spinny forehand. I think the reason Nadal is not doing well is because djokovic is finally confident and not only has a two hander but an excellent one. Nadal cannot bully his backhand like he does to everyone else.

It is also difficult when you have the same gameplan against everybody and you suddenly have to change that plan. The best way to beat Nadal is with a lot of confidence and a great backhand.

 

[JustBob]

It's not like Novak blew Rafa off court in that final. He just kept the ball in play on many a points, while Rafa was trying to go for a little bit more at the same time. I thought Rafa just was not patient enough in that match... as much as it feels odd to say this about Nadal. Novak IMHO just frustrates people with his defense skills. I thought Rafa instead of trying to pull a trigger after 10 balls should said to himself "OK, you want to hit 30 ball rallies? Let do it!" Instead he seemed frustrated that Novak hit everything back.

Rafa is usually the one imposing his game and forcing his opponent to go for more. I can understand his frustration. It's like he's getting beat by a better version of himself.

 

[DeShaun]

Djokovic can sustain longer rallies than he could before. His improved fitness is the reason, in my mind. I am a 3.0. On days when I can run pain-free, when my ankles, knees, and hips are not bothering me, I am able to pressure even the local 4.0s, simply by playing great defense and waiting for them to make unforced errors. But it goes beyond coaxing errors from an opponent, and includes consistently being prepared for my shots well in advance and, thus, striking the ball much better on such days. Rafa no longer holds this sort of edge over Nole. Nole has been outworking Rafa defensively and it has spilled over to Nole's offensive shotmaking, consistently being is better position, getting his weight behind his shots, etc. Rafa can see this with his own eyes and it's getting inside his head the fact that grinding Nole down is no longer an option because Nole is out-grinding Rafa. He cannot deceive Nole into getting caught unawares because Nole is too fit to get surprised by one of Rafa's patented attempts at suddenly speeding up a rally, with a brilliant shot, after the rally starts out slowly on Rafa's terms. Nole is simply too good at hunting down every last one of Rafa's famous "defense-to-offense" shots.
These are two essentials--playing grinding defense, and turning defense to offense--to Rafa's success (otherwise known as counterpunching) that Nole has turned the tables on. Novak is out-counterpunching Rafa, while throwing in some pushing for good measure, and Rafa does not seem to be enjoying the taste of his own medicine.

That photo of Rafa seated looking downward at his Wimby runner-up plate, to me, tells the story of a man coming to terms with the reality that his game is going to continue failing him on multiple levels against a particularly well-matched opponent in Nole...it's written all over Rafa's face, to my (projecting) eye.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Their last 10 matches, it is 8-2 in Djokovic's favour.

He has been steadily turning this rivalry around, and if the trend continues, he will lead the overall H2H. He is catching up fast...really fast.

 

[dingo]

Their last 10 matches, it is 8-2 in Djokovic's favour.

He has been steadily turning this rivalry around, and if the trend continues, he will lead the overall H2H. He is catching up fast...really fast.

I don't see it this way. Novak has been nailing everyone. Nadal hit the meat grinder just like everyone else. He only lost more because he goes deep into every tournament. Novak has been setting the bar higher this year for everyone. So players not have to sit down and figure out what that bar is and what they have to do to reach it in order to stay competitive. If anything I think Rafa has a better chance than the rest of the field to adept to Novak's game because his game is as physical as Novak's and is also based on great defense as a foundation. Novak just sent him a message that he needs to work harder or make slight adjustments to his game if he wants to be competitive with Novak.

 

[BobFL]

Nole is simply a nightmare match-up for Nadal. Here is why.
Nole's return exposes 1st serious weakness of Nadal's - 2nd serve. Secondly, Nadal cannot hit random plan-less balls with spin and wait for an opening. It is not happening. Nole is not impressed with his spin what so ever. Every inside in fh is coming back with interest in the form of bh cc. Nole is also outsmarting Nadal. I think Nole's tennis IQ is considerably higher. That is one of the reasons why he has issues with Fed because Fed's IQ is even higher. Nadal cannot out-bash Nole because his defense is the finest there is. Nadal's bh is neutral at best but Nole's is one fine-tunes weapon with all sorts of varieties. I don't remember when was the last time I saw Nadal's "I have no idea what to do with this guy" face and I was seeing it a lot lately. So, to sum it up, Nole exposed 2 biggest weaknesses of Nadal's: 2nd serve and no-plan overall game. Simple physique-based game won't cut it.

 

[MichaelNadal]

It can change back to Nadal's favour, if he can be more consistenly aggressive is his game and rediscover an edge of some sort at the crucial moments. When Nadal has played Djokovic in 2011, he has lost that clutchness at the crucial moments. For example, Djokovic converted 5 out of 6 break points in the Wimbledon final. One of the big pillars of Nadal's success has been his ability to win the most crucial points of a match, and he just hasn't been doing that against Djokovic this year. Djokovic has closed that gap there used to be between himself and Nadal in the mental and physical stakes. Nadal has to rediscover that edge.

This is exactly what it is. Nadal used to win the crucial points. Now on a BP, etc, It's Nole who is being aggressive and swinging for the fences, and Rafa is the one hoping Nole makes an error. It used to be the other way around. Madrid 09 tiebreak, perfect example.

 

[Achilles82]

I dont get it. Nadal has beaten him 16 times across all surfaces and now all of a sudden in 2011 Djokovic is a match up problem for Nadal? Sorry *******s. Lets just be honest and admit that Djokovic has more mental toughness than Nadal this year and its the reason why he has lost the last 5 matches. The same Nadal Federer scenario except that this time Nadal is the victim. Plain and simple.Comments.

Here is plane and simple for you.

It's because Novak has beaten Rafa last 5 times, on 3 different surfaces, and that includes 2 wins on clay, and 1 win in grand slam final

And also, in last 10 meeting, Novak has beaten Rafa 8 times.

Rafa developed much earlier then Novak, and that's why he leads in wins. But now, it's completely different story.

I'm not saying Rafa can't beat Novak. But right now, Novak is favorite to win.

 

[FeVer]

Djokovic's game always was a good match-up against Nadal.

It's the execution that was the problem, not the game plan and relative strengths and weaknesses of the players.

This. Only now is Nole able to take full advantage of his favourable match up. This is why it doesn't favour Nadal:

1) Leftie topspin forehands directed at someone with a great backhand who likes to take high balls early and hit DTL.

2) Slightly weak serve against amazing return. Exacerbated further if Nadal isn't getting a high first serve percentage.

3) Nadal offers a tentative return himself, but this is just a more general issue with his game. It just happens that a great player like Djokovic will take full toll.

 

[dingo]

"He only lost more because he goes deep into every tournament."

Just let that statement sit there, and wash over you. I think it speaks for itself.

Btw, Djoke went deep in every tournament, too, all finals except for one semifinal. Why, he even avoided losing in the quarterfinals of a Grand Slam to David Ferrer!

I'm not sure you understand what that quote is supposed to speak for. I said that because people mentioned in this thread that Nadal is 2-8 against Novak. I simply pointed out that Nadal gets to lose more matches against Novak because they play against each other more at the final stages the same tournaments they both enter.

 

[Talker]

Nadal has to do something to turn this around, too much longer without beating Djokovic would effect how Nadal is seen historically.

why? did he suddenly lose his 10 slams? Is his dominence on clay suddenly forgotten? This argument is as bad for Nadal as it was for fed.

It's not as bad for Fed. Fed continued his dominance until he got the mono.
After that his skills degraded some and many beat him.

Djokovic took a lot of hardware from a prime Rafa on all surfaces in just 6 months.

Everyone knows how the tables changed with Borg after McEnroe beat him on grass, just part of tennis history.

This is worse, all three surfaces and it's not over yet.

Nadal has a chance for redemption, win the USO and maybe even over Djokovic in the final there.

No disrespect for Rafa, it's just that these events over the last 6 months are dramatic, even shocking.
No one, even Djokovic fans expected this.

 

[tacou]

Fed never lost 5 straight times on 3 different surfaces in a 6 month period to Nadal. One year he lost 4, then won Wimbledon, Big difference. You wanna shrug off 5-0 as too small a sample, that's your prerogative, but others of us know better.

Fed's h2h in every way is terrible against Nadal. most Fed fans dismiss h2h because of this. If you want to view the 2011 Novak vs Nadal h2h as relevant then Federer's career h2h vs. Nadal is bad for his history

 

[dingo]

Well, uh, YEAH. It's kinda hard for the top two seeds to play each other in any round by the final round, I would've thought that was pretty obvious to anybody who knows how seeds work. What, exactly, is your point?

The point was to suggest why it was not very surprising why Rafa lost so much to Novak this year. Novak is playing better this year + they play a lot = lots of losses to Rafa. Yhis is in contrast to some other lower ranked players who might have only lost to Novak once this year, because this is all they played.

 

[bholloway]

Novak playing well will beat Rafa almost everytime and that's evident by his play this year. He rallies just as well as Rafa does from the baseline, moves just as well if not better, and can attack more effectively. Topspin to his backhand doesn't bother him because he just flattens it out. What Novak has been lacking is confidence and now that hes beaten Nadal in the past 5 finals they've played in, he has confidence while Nadal is a little bit shaken. Basically his game matches up well against Nadal and hes not afraid of him. Similar to the way Nadal started beating Fed a few years back.

 

[DMan]

Prior to 2011, the score was 16-7 in Nadal's favor, and, broke down as follows:

9-0 on clay, 7-7 on all other surfaces, so, as is the case with somebody else I can think of, Nadal isn't dominant on ALL surfaces, just one.

And for those 7-7 matches off clay, 2 were on grass, one in 2007 and one in 2008. And of course in every one of those matches Nadal ranked ahead of Djoker.

Nice too, that for Nadal,his opponents are able to advance far enough in clay court events, where he is superior. But the opposite is not true. So Nadal always gets to pad his H2H because of the clay court record. It will forever be an asterisk on his H2H, that so many matches occurred on one surface. In the Federer-Nadal rivalry, more than half of their matches are on clay!

 

[wickedfps]

He is a match up problem and will continue to dominate Nadal unless Nadal steps up and do something about his game mentally. At this point it is all in the head.

IN MY OPINION, right now, it is like a younger brother cannot beat older brother type of situation. People know you are capable of beating anyone, you just don't feel that you can do it yourself.

 

[Netzroller]

This is like the "whose on second" routine with Abbott and Costello. It almost sounds like you're saying that others are saying Nadal stinks because weak players only have lost to Djoke a few times, whereas Nadal has lost to him 5 times. Or maybe you're saying Nadal deserves credit for reaching 5 finals against Djoke, I don't know. I mean, you didn't understand why Nadal was so impatient against Djoke in the Wimbledon final, so maybe I'm just speaking with somebody who doesn't understand tennis very well. Bottom line is, Nadal has no answer for Djoke right now, and there is a lot of evidence to suggest that that is NOT going to change any time soon,

Dude, what is your problem!?:???:

He just stated a simple fact, you on the other hand take everythink like a personal offense.

Some players lost only 1 or no match to Novak this season whereas Nadal lost 5 times. However, this is because they didn't make it far enough to even play him that many times. Had Nadal not reached lots of these finals, he would have never lost to Nole 5 times, right? Therefore, giving guys credit for losing to Nole less often than Nadal doesn't make much sense. That's all he's saying....

And of course Nadal deserves credit for making these 5 finals...:shock:

 

[Mustard]

As bad as Fed's record vs Nadal is, he never, ever, EVER lost 5 straight times to him, in 6 months, on 3 different surfaces.

But Federer has lost to Nadal 5 times in a row on two seperate occasions. When Nadal took the head-to-head from 8-6 to 13-6, he beat Federer in the 2008 French Open final (clay), 2008 Wimbledon final (grass) and 2009 Australian Open final (hardcourt). That's 3 major finals on 3 different surfaces.

Even Fed's one loss at Wimbledon wasn't exactly a blow out, 9-7 in the 5th, on his best surface. Nadal is hardly competitive, let alone winning-even when he lost 7 straight sets to Delpo, at least a Nadal fan could cling to the fact that it was on Nadal's worst surface; when you get beaten 4 straight sets on your best surface, what is there to say?

Nadal won the French Open, though. The Wimbledon loss hurts a lot more than the other 4 losses.

And, in the same vein, Fed has a slight plus score vs Nadal on all surfaces other than dirt, he is in effect being penalized because he has the skills to get to the finals on his worst surface, whereas the reverse isn't true as often with Nadal: he's only been to one AO final, one US Open, and yes, 5 Wimbledons, but he's lost 3 of them. Djoke would beat Nadal on moon dust, at this point.

Nadal has beaten both Federer and Djokovic in big matches on non-clay surfaces. It's also annoying how people treat clay like wins on clay are not as good as wins on other surfaces. Anything for them to bash Nadal.

 

[Raistlin]

Djokovic no doubt would have taken out Nadal if he had not lost to Federer at RG this year.....nuff said

 

[Kaz00]

Nadal's forehand goes right into Djokovic's strength a 2HBH 2 hands is better than 1.

 

[Mustard]

Djokovic no doubt would have taken out Nadal if he had not lost to Federer at RG this year.....nuff said

But Djokovic did lose to Federer. Let me know when you come back to reality.

 

[Mustard]

My problem, "DUDE," is people with reading comprehension problems, yourself included. Who said anything about giving "credit" to people for losing less to Djoke? That's so far off the point as to be laughable, the POINT is, Nadal is not like everybody else, he was, until recently, the top ranked player in the game, and if any other top ranked player ever lost 5 straight times to the same player, on 3 surfaces, within a 6 month period, it doesn't leap to mind. If you're too thick to understand that is virtually unprecedented and a huge problem for Nadal, well, you're just thick, and there's no hope for you, at least as far as understanding a conversation about tennis is concerned.

Federer lost to Nadal in 3 slam finals on 3 different surfaces in an 8 month span, and a fifth loss in a row to Nadal overall. Federer has still dominated tennis more than anyone else in the open era.

 

[Mustard]

<<The above is not an accurate statement, re-read what I said, and try again.>>

I read what you said, and I'm pointing out that Federer had worse runs against Nadal than Nadal has had against Djokovic.

<<I didn't say a single, solitary word about how much a loss hurt or didn't hurt, so I'm not sure what your point is.>>

My point is that Nadal won the French Open, the biggest clay-court tournament in the world, whereas Djokovic lost in the semi finals. I was also pointing out how Djokovic has beaten Nadal in just 1 match during a major, which is hardly catastrophic.

<<Nadal is a proven cheater, constantly uses gamesmanship, is a likely juicer, and alibis losses-sometimes pre-emptively. Now, he's been booted out the top spot in unusually humiliating fashion. There's a lot to bash. Get used to it.>>

Yawn. You're yet another Nadal hater.

It sounds like you have an inkling now that your other post was incorrect. When was the other occasion of 5 straight losses, btw?

See for yourself:

Rafael Nadal 17-8 Roger Federer
2004 Miami R32: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-3, 6-3)
2005 Miami F: Roger Federer def. Rafael Nadal (2-6, 6-7, 7-6, 6-3, 6-1)
2005 French Open SF: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-3, 4-6, 6-4, 6-3)
2006 Dubai F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (2-6, 6-4, 6-4)
2006 Monte Carlo F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-2, 6-7, 6-3, 7-6)
2006 Rome F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-7, 7-6, 6-4, 2-6, 7-6)
2006 French Open F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (1-6, 6-1, 6-4, 7-6)
2006 Wimbledon F: Roger Federer def. Rafael Nadal (6-0, 7-6, 6-7, 6-3)
2006 Masters Cup SF: Roger Federer def. Rafael Nadal (6-4, 7-5)
2007 Monte Carlo F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-4, 6-4)
2007 Hamburg F: Roger Federer def. Rafael Nadal (2-6, 6-2, 6-0)
2007 French Open F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-3, 4-6, 6-3, 6-4)
2007 Wimbledon F: Roger Federer def. Rafael Nadal (7-6, 4-6, 7-6, 2-6, 6-2)
2007 Masters Cup SF: Roger Federer def. Rafael Nadal (6-4, 6-1)
2008 Monte Carlo F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (7-5, 7-5)
2008 Hamburg F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (7-5, 6-7, 6-3)
2008 French Open F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-1, 6-3, 6-0)
2008 Wimbledon F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-4, 6-4, 6-7, 6-7, 9-7)
2009 Australian Open F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (7-5, 3-6, 7-6, 3-6, 6-2)
2009 Madrid F: Roger Federer def. Rafael Nadal (6-4, 6-4)
2010 Madrid F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-4, 7-6)
2010 World Tour Finals F: Roger Federer def. Rafael Nadal (6-3, 3-6, 6-1)
2011 Miami SF: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (6-3, 6-2)
2011 Madrid SF: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (5-7, 6-1, 6-3)
2011 French Open F: Rafael Nadal def. Roger Federer (7-5, 7-6, 5-7, 6-1)

Hardcourt: 4-4
Clay: 12-2 to Nadal
Grass: 2-1 to Federer
Carpet: 0-0
In Slams: 7-2 to Nadal

 

[rod99]

it's a pretty simple answer. nadal's crosscourt forehand generally draws an error or a short ball from his opponent's backhand. djokovic has a world class backhand that really gets the ball through the court. so when nadal's forehand is going against djokovic's backhand, nadal doesn't have the advantage he usually does, especially on a fast surface where djokovic's backhand is more penetrating.

nadal also is not able to hit as many forehands from his backhand corner, where he can really do some damage. he has to stay in the middle of the court instead of leaning to his backhand side b/c djokovic's ball is so heavy and penetrating off both wings.

 

[Tennis_Monk]

I dont get it. Nadal has beaten him 16 times across all surfaces and now all of a sudden in 2011 Djokovic is a match up problem for Nadal? Sorry *******s. Lets just be honest and admit that Djokovic has more mental toughness than Nadal this year and its the reason why he has lost the last 5 matches. The same Nadal Federer scenario except that this time Nadal is the victim. Plain and simple.Comments.

Why do people say Djokovic is a match up problem for Nadal?

hmm because He is a matchup problem. That doesnt mean Nadal cant win against Djoker or Djoker will always win against Nadal. Their matches will be decided by who is having better execution on a given day.

 

[Mustard]

Worse" is your opinion, nothing more.

When a 5-match losing streak to a player includes 3 major finals and 2 masters series titles, I'd say that's worse than 1 major final and 4 masters series titles.

And MY point is that Djoke won the AO, while Nadal got his as.s. kicked in the quarterfinals...by David Ferrer

Nadal pulled his hamstring very early on in the match. He had no chance of beating Ferrer after that, so it's hardly surprising that Ferrer beat Nadal in straight sets.

and that only an idiot would try to in any way, directly or indirectly, to compare Nadal's 2011 season to Djoke's. Miami and IW aren't majors, but they're very important, too. 1 loss in a major isn't catastrophic, but 5 losses on 3 different surfaces in a 6 month period, IS.

You're being melodramatic again.