Would Navratilova have been nightmare matchup for prime Graf

illusions30

Banned
We never got to see Navratilova and Graf in their primes together. Despite that Graf is generally regarded as the GOAT above Navratilova these days, looknig at their head to head would it suggest a prime Navratilova would have owned a prime Graf? They are 9-9, and played some matches in Martina's prime, then some in Steffi's. However the most telling aspect of their history is this. Their most neutral meeting ground would seem to be the U.S Open. At the U.S Open despite 4 of their 5 matches being when Navratilova was 29 or older, Navratilova won 4 of their 5 matches, and choked away 6-3, 4-2 lead in the only loss. This suggest that Navratilova would have perhaps owned Steffi in their mutual primes, if not neccessarily due to ability, due to the matchup. Or does it. What do you think.
 

BTURNER

Legend
We never got to see Navratilova and Graf in their primes together. Despite that Graf is generally regarded as the GOAT above Navratilova these days, looknig at their head to head would it suggest a prime Navratilova would have owned a prime Graf? They are 9-9, and played some matches in Martina's prime, then some in Steffi's. However the most telling aspect of their history is this. Their most neutral meeting ground would seem to be the U.S Open. At the U.S Open despite 4 of their 5 matches being when Navratilova was 29 or older, Navratilova won 4 of their 5 matches, and choked away 6-3, 4-2 lead in the only loss. This suggest that Navratilova would have perhaps owned Steffi in their mutual primes, if not neccessarily due to ability, due to the matchup. Or does it. What do you think.

Choking and its opposite mental toughness is part of the game, as much as any other. Sooo its more logical to say that someone as mentally tough as Graf is a nightmare matchup.

Beyond that, I do not see that match up of strokes or styles as producing a 'nightmare' for either. But Graf's footspeed... now that was a serious problem for Martina. It nullified so many of Martina's advantages. It made the lefty hook serve less deadly, because Steffi could make up the ground, and her 'late' forehand was better than anyone elses with plenty of time. She was quick enough to get to approaches and volleys with time to spare for a run-around forehand. .

On the other hand that slice of Steffi's was less worrisome to Martina and as a passing stroke, it simply wasn't as effective against the acrobatic and agile Martina as it was against other less mobile or strong s/vers like Shriver, Sukova etc. Frankly Steffi just did not have the lob and the experience on when to use it that Evert had, so Navratilova could afford to close if she had time to get in proper position. Then again that was sometimes a challenge with Graf catching shots so early before the spin could drag her off.
 

illusions30

Banned
I agree with alot of what you say. I am just wondering what should be made of their U.S Open history, if anything. It sounds like too large a sum of matches to be passed of as just an aberration. Given when the matches occured Steffi should have had the advantage, and yet Martina leads a whopping 4-1 which surprises me.

I know what you mean about the choking part, and yes Steffi is mentally tougher than Martina which would be an element in their matches. However Chris is mentally tougher than Martina by far and still lost 13 matches in a row at one point, although a gap in power and athleticsm would never exist to the extend it did in that matchup for awhile. The only reason I brought that up is to indicate that Martina could have easily won all 5 of their U.S Open matches despite being 29 or older for 4 of the 5. That is a pretty telling thing as far as the matchup goes.
 

CEvertFan

Hall of Fame
I agree with alot of what you say. I am just wondering what should be made of their U.S Open history, if anything. It sounds like too large a sum of matches to be passed of as just an aberration. Given when the matches occured Steffi should have had the advantage, and yet Martina leads a whopping 4-1 which surprises me.

I know what you mean about the choking part, and yes Steffi is mentally tougher than Martina which would be an element in their matches. However Chris is mentally tougher than Martina by far and still lost 13 matches in a row at one point, although a gap in power and athleticsm would never exist to the extend it did in that matchup for awhile. The only reason I brought that up is to indicate that Martina could have easily won all 5 of their U.S Open matches despite being 29 or older for 4 of the 5. That is a pretty telling thing as far as the matchup goes.

That 13 match losing streak came about in part because Evert was in the process of finally moving away from her beloved wood racquet to a graphite one. The other part is that I think Martina got into her head a bit when, at Nancy Leiberman's insistence, Martina began her 'Hate Chris' mentality and it got to Evert a bit because they were friends.

Once Evert steadied herself mentally and grew comfortable with her new graphite racquet she broke the losing streak, beat Martina in the French final in 85 and even regained the #1 ranking for part of the year and even could have finished #1 for the year if she had beaten Martina at the Australian Open which was held in Dec at the time.

As for the Navratilova/Graf rivalry, Martina was always going to be a tough match-up for Graf because of her relentless attacking style of play and athleticism. Graf was just as athletic though and was faster afoot than Navratilova so it wasn't ever going to be easy for Martina to beat her either especially since Graf developed a solid topspin backhand passing shot that she used against Navratilova more than she did against anyone else ever and I haven't even yet mentioned the deadly Graf forehand which was sometimes hard for Martina to handle at net. Bottom line is I think both women would rather play anyone else than one another because they both knew that they were in for a really tough match.
 
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illusions30

Banned
I think the problem for Steffi in this matchup was her slice backhand was very effective as a really shot, and if desired an approach shot, but not so much sa a passing shot, and that is what it was needed be used as often vs Martina. She did have a great topspin backhand when she wanted to, but she was very reluctant to use it. Used it more against Martina, but still wasnt totally comfortable to. That plus in general she isnt the best returner or passer, she is very good still compared to most, but those arent even close to her own strengths.

Someone like Seles prime for prime I think would have been the toughest matchup for Navratilova as she had the best return of serve and very strong passing shots off both sides, with lots of power too. I am not sure Navratilova would have been able to effectively expose that she isnt near the athlete Steffi or Monica is either. Steffi being another baseliner had an easier time doing that.
 

Graf1stClass

Professional
Steffi wasn't really reluctant to use her topspin backhand against Navratilova when the latter was at the net. It's just that a good netplayer can come in with little notice and prevent the baseliner from readying their best passing shot in advance. Steffi was usually going to use her slice, of course. Also, the slice is sometimes a better shot to use against a netplayer if it's good: it's arguably harder to volley a shot with significant backspin on it; and in any case, it provides a good change of pace.

Again, navratilova was her worst matchup, no question. She could never touch Steffi when the latter was in her prime, though.
 

illusions30

Banned
Again, navratilova was her worst matchup, no question. She could never touch Steffi when the latter was in her prime, though.

Which year do you believe Steffi's prime to have begun. 1986, 1987, or 1988? I could see a case for any of those 3 years. Would you also cut out 1991 (her worst year of tennis ever from 86-96) as one of her prime years due to the massive slumpage in form?

If that is the case I guess the head to head with Navratilova at the U.S Open as I originally called it could be unfair as the losses occured in 1985, 1986, 1987, 1991. When do you believe Martina's prime carried until as well. Some would say 1985, some 1986, and some would say 1989 minus perhaps 1988 (her Steffi 1991-like slumpage year).

I agree with you about a great net rusher not giving the opposing player time to even ready the passing shot they want to hit. Martina did this extremely well.
 

GS

Professional
After Navratilova retired years ago, I remember her saying that if she was starting out today, she'd stick with her one-handed slice (to chip and charge), but have a two-hander, as well.
 

Graf1stClass

Professional
Which year do you believe Steffi's prime to have begun. 1986, 1987, or 1988? I could see a case for any of those 3 years. Would you also cut out 1991 (her worst year of tennis ever from 86-96) as one of her prime years due to the massive slumpage in form?

If that is the case I guess the head to head with Navratilova at the U.S Open as I originally called it could be unfair as the losses occured in 1985, 1986, 1987, 1991. When do you believe Martina's prime carried until as well. Some would say 1985, some 1986, and some would say 1989 minus perhaps 1988 (her Steffi 1991-like slumpage year).

I agree with you about a great net rusher not giving the opposing player time to even ready the passing shot they want to hit. Martina did this extremely well.

1988 (maybe late '87)-1989 and 1995-1996 were her primes. Even though her 1994 AO, especially the final, was pretty much flawless attacking, that was it for that year.

I'm not sure what martina's prime was, but I'd say 1985. By the time Graf hit her prime, martina was definitely leaving hers. She was probably a few months away from the beginning of her final stretch.
 

Xavier G

Hall of Fame
1988 (maybe late '87)-1989 and 1995-1996 were her primes. Even though her 1994 AO, especially the final, was pretty much flawless attacking, that was it for that year.

I'm not sure what martina's prime was, but I'd say 1985. By the time Graf hit her prime, martina was definitely leaving hers. She was probably a few months away from the beginning of her final stretch.

Was Steffi not prime in the summer of 92 when she pushed Seles to 10-8 in the final set at the French and then won Wimbledon?

What, suddenly not in her prime again at the US Open?
What about Wimbledon 91? Graf won it, didn't she? Not prime Graf?
What's the story for 34 year old Navratilova beating Graf at the 91 US Open?
What was up at Roland Garros 90, 91?
You and illusions30 certainly have some excuses and alibis for Steffi's relatively poor years...
I think some other players had something to do with Steffi's relatively poor years, not forgetting all her well-documented problems which are always given an airing here..

Don't get me wrong, Steffi may be the strongest all-round player ever, maybe, but...
If anyone beats her, she's not prime? If she wins, she's prime?
What about 93? Seles has to leave the game thanks to Gunter and Steffi starts winning 3 Slams a year again all of a sudden? Is that prime Steffi?...
 

Graf1stClass

Professional
Was Steffi not prime in the summer of 92 when she pushed Seles to 10-8 in the final set at the French and then won Wimbledon?

What, suddenly not in her prime again at the US Open?
What about Wimbledon 91? Graf won it, didn't she? Not prime Graf?
What's the story for 34 year old Navratilova beating Graf at the 91 US Open?
What was up at Roland Garros 90, 91?
You and illusions30 certainly have some excuses and alibis for Steffi's relatively poor years...
I think some other players had something to do with Steffi's relatively poor years, not forgetting all her well-documented problems which are always given an airing here..

Don't get me wrong, Steffi may be the strongest all-round player ever, maybe, but...
If anyone beats her, she's not prime? If she wins, she's prime?
What about 93? Seles has to leave the game thanks to Gunter and Steffi starts winning 3 Slams a year again all of a sudden? Is that prime Steffi?...

I take it back...that's crass.

Her 90s prime started in 1995. It's the quality AND CONSISTENCY of tennis played that makes a prime. The only reason 1997 wasn't included was because she was bogged down with injuries. Plus, seles was playing in 1995-1996.
 
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Xavier G

Hall of Fame
I take it back...that's crass.

Her 90s prime started in 1995. It's the quality AND CONSISTENCY of tennis played that makes a prime. The only reason 1997 wasn't included was because she was bogged down with injuries. Plus, seles was playing in 1995-1996.

Hey, good discussion.
Graf was legitimately a great player, maybe the strongest ever all-round to date. She didn't have a weak surface. I personally can say that, instead of 'GOAT'.
 

Graf1stClass

Professional
Hey, good discussion.
Graf was legitimately a great player, maybe the strongest ever all-round to date. She didn't have a weak surface. I personally can say that, instead of 'GOAT'.

Yeah, well, she's the GOAT, too. That's what "strongest ever all-round to date" means, anyway.
 

AngieB

Banned
Steffi was very successful against her baseline peers and was much more challenged by serve and volley players. Pam Shriver in the 1988 YE Championships was one example. Martina was her chief serve and volley nemesis.

The difference between Steffi being GOAT vs Martina comes down to when each began their peak. Steffi was 17 and Martina was 25. No doubt in my mind that if Martina had gathered her physicality and emotions earlier in her career, she would have been the clear GOAT and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Martina won 10 of 14 GS titles during her prime. That rivals Steffi's numbers during both of Steffi's periods of dominance.

What makes Steffi's career remarkable was her ability to peak at such a young age and ability to continue winning throughout her career. Its what has kept Steffi in GOAT discussions.

AngieB
 

illusions30

Banned
I see from the quotes the idiot Xavier G is still responding to me constantly despite that I have already informed this individual he has been on my ignore list since almost day 1. I am making excuses for Steffi though? That is a good one, when I am the one starting a thread speculating on prime Navratilova possibly owning prime Steffi. This individual must have been dropped on their head as a baby, it honestly isnt possible to be THAT stupid. I am also a Graf fanatic according to this individual, despite that this individual has twice as many posts about Graf as I do (just use the search button). Anyway said individual (who I will no longer address by name), you are on my ignore list almost since I joined because I have no use for individuals such as yourself so unless you enjoy wasting your time stop responding to my messages. Thanks.
 

illusions30

Banned
Steffi was very successful against her baseline peers and was much more challenged by serve and volley players.

I wouldnt say Shriver is a great example as she only beat Steffi once after 85, and her slam meetings with Steffi after 85 were all straight set losses, only one of those respectable (6-4, 6-3). A much better example would be Lori McNeil who while she was 2-10 vs Graf (something like that) still had a better record vs Graf and caused more trouble than did many of the very top players like Conchita Martinez, Jana Novotna (although also a S-V or supposed to be), Mary Joe Fernandez, despite being regularly ranked outside the top 20. Perhaps the best one of all is Mariaan deSwaardt who in 3 meetings Graf never once beat easily, including a loss.
 

AngieB

Banned
I wouldnt say Shriver is a great example as she only beat Steffi once after 85, and her slam meetings with Steffi after 85 were all straight set losses, only one of those respectable (6-4, 6-3). A much better example would be Lori McNeil who while she was 2-10 vs Graf (something like that) still had a better record vs Graf and caused more trouble than did many of the very top players like Conchita Martinez, Jana Novotna (although also a S-V or supposed to be), Mary Joe Fernandez, despite being regularly ranked outside the top 20. Perhaps the best one of all is Mariaan deSwaardt who in 3 meetings Graf never once beat easily, including a loss.
I used Pam Shriver as an example because she was one the ONLY player to defeat Steffi at a major event in 1988, during the pennacle of Steffi's historic Golden Slam year. Pam also played spoiler to Martina during her rise, but that is another discussion.

AngieB
 

Xavier G

Hall of Fame
I see from the quotes the idiot Xavier G is still responding to me constantly despite that I have already informed this individual he has been on my ignore list since almost day 1. I am making excuses for Steffi though? That is a good one, when I am the one starting a thread speculating on prime Navratilova possibly owning prime Steffi. This individual must have been dropped on their head as a baby, it honestly isnt possible to be THAT stupid. I am also a Graf fanatic according to this individual, despite that this individual has twice as many posts about Graf as I do (just use the search button). Anyway said individual (who I will no longer address by name), you are on my ignore list almost since I joined because I have no use for individuals such as yourself so unless you enjoy wasting your time stop responding to my messages. Thanks.

Well, from day one since you joined, (and how many posts have you made in a handful of days), I've just been refuting the nonsense topic about Graf being best ever on every surface when clearly she does not deserve that label, however good a player she was. Oh and the first thing you did on joining was jump on me for saying so...
But I promise to ignore you too in future. Do not address me again. Thanks.



:)
 
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suwanee4712

Professional
I fully believe that prime Martina and prime Steffi would relish playing each other. That's just their nature of who they are as competitors. Martina was the ultimate matchup for Steffi as far as playing someone that gives you a target goes. Plus, no one challenged Steffi's backhand as much as lefty Martina. A match with her always let Steffi know where she stood with the quality and accuracy of her backhand. Also, Martina said in the early 90's that she enjoyed the challenge of playing Steffi more than any other rival that she had.

If they played ten times, my natural inclination to believe that a good serve and volleyer will defeat a good baseliner makes me think that Martina would win at least six of those matchups. But it would not surprise me if Steffi was the one who would win six instead.

Pure conjecture and fun to think about.

I'm surprised that Martina won 4 out of 5 at the Open. But I think their indoor matchups like 92 Zurich or 93 Tokyo might give us better clues to this hypothetical.
 

AngieB

Banned
That 13 match losing streak came about in part because Evert was in the process of finally moving away from her beloved wood racquet to a graphite one. The other part is that I think Martina got into her head a bit when, at Nancy Leiberman's insistence, Martina began her 'Hate Chris' mentality and it got to Evert a bit because they were friends.
The only way for Martina to usurp Evert's dominance over her was to distance herself and follow a regimented workout and game plan. I do agree that Chris' transition from wood to graphite was a challenge for her because it came after Martina changed. Add to that a physically-enhanced Martina running around and Chris had to really dig deep to compete. It was compelling to watch. When everything else went south, Chris seemed to find a way in Paris.

There is a special place in hell for Nancy Leiberman. I didn't like how a basketball player was allowed to influence women's tennis in such a negative fashion.

AngieB
 

suwanee4712

Professional
The only way for Martina to usurp Evert's dominance over her was to distance herself and follow a regimented workout and game plan. I do agree that Chris' transition from wood to graphite was a challenge for her because it came after Martina changed. Add to that a physically-enhanced Martina running around and Chris had to really dig deep to compete. It was compelling to watch. When everything else went south, Chris seemed to find a way in Paris.

There is a special place in hell for Nancy Leiberman. I didn't like how a basketball player was allowed to influence women's tennis in such a negative fashion.

AngieB

While things were happening, Nancy fully earned her nickname, "Agent Orange." She was unnecessarily rude to Chris. You also have to remember that Nancy was a frustrated workd class athlete with little to no outlet because of tge lack of a successful womens basketball league. I actually felt bad for her. This is probably where her going overboard came from. Today, Nancy is smart and insightful. I wish there would've been a WNBA for her.

With that said, Nancy saw a weakness in Martina that needed fixing if she was going to surpass Chris. Chris was very good at drawing people in while at the same time keeping them at arm's length. She was a psychological predator that felt comfy controlling her relationships with Martina, Wendy, Virginia Ruzici, and to some extent even Andrea. She was very uncomfortable with the fact that she had very little influence or control over BJK and Tracy.

Nancy was right when she told Martina that Chris would smile and play nice while she was taking your money and trophies from you as long as you find that acceptable. Nancy toughened Martina up in a way that she needed and the result was that ultimately Martina and Chris became equals.
 
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illusions30

Banned
I fully believe that prime Martina and prime Steffi would relish playing each other. That's just their nature of who they are as competitors. Martina was the ultimate matchup for Steffi as far as playing someone that gives you a target goes. Plus, no one challenged Steffi's backhand as much as lefty Martina. A match with her always let Steffi know where she stood with the quality and accuracy of her backhand. Also, Martina said in the early 90's that she enjoyed the challenge of playing Steffi more than any other rival that she had.

If they played ten times, my natural inclination to believe that a good serve and volleyer will defeat a good baseliner makes me think that Martina would win at least six of those matchups. But it would not surprise me if Steffi was the one who would win six instead.

Pure conjecture and fun to think about.

I'm surprised that Martina won 4 out of 5 at the Open. But I think their indoor matchups like 92 Zurich or 93 Tokyo might give us better clues to this hypothetical.

I would guess their head to head going something like this. 10 matches per surface:

Rebound ace: Graf wins 8 out of 10. I think this would have been Martina's worst surface by far, much worse than clay, but fortunately it did not exist until the end of her prime. A champion of Martina's stature and talents wouldnt be weak anywhere, and this was also Graf's weakest surface too, but I still think their most one sided head to head would be here. It would just be hard to employ the kind of game she would want to vs Graf on these sticky, very bouncy, and fairly slow courts.

Clay: Graf wins 7 out of 10. I think they would have had some great battles but ultimately Steffi would usually prevail. When Martina played at the top of her game (which would probably happen 60% or more of the time) the matches would look alot like the 87 French final and could go either way each time. When Martina was even slightly off Steffi would roll her. Which leaves a head to head roughly like this.

General slow to medium paced hard courts (most of the regular tour events): Martina wins 6 of 10.

Fast hard courts (U.S Open style): Martina wins 7 out of 10. I could be way off here but I am basing this on their factual U.S Open history that I spoke off at the beginning which seems to favor Martina in the head to head on that surface.

Modern fast grass: Tied 5 to 5. It is funny I am giving Graf better success rate here than the U.S Open, when Martina is generally considered the Wimbledon GOAT, and Graf has the superior U.S Open and general hard court record. However I like to look at matches that did take place, and even if Martina was arguably a bit past their prime in their Wimbledon matches, Graf fared much better in the actual history between them at Wimbledon than the U.S Open. The way Martina was taken apart in parts of the 88 and 89 Wimbledon finals, despite going 3 sets the combined games are 35-20 in Graf's favor, would suggest even prime Martina having no easy time here, however I am also sure Graf would have a very tough time with Martina's attacking style on this fast court.

Old slower grass events: Tied 5 to 5. There used to be a large grass season and a great variety of different speed grass events, including 2 or 3 majors. Martina was less formidable on slower Australian grass than Wimbledon grass for instance, although still outstanding. Given Graf's relative decline on slower Australian hard courts, I imagine the same would hold true for her. Leaving a similarily even battle.

Carpet or Indoors: Martina leads 7 to 3. Steffi was a great indoor and carpet player, and did beat an extremely good Martina in the 89 YEC, but peak Martina was almost unbeatable there.

So that leaves a final head to head of 30-30 if the matches came off the way I broke them down per surface. Since rebound ace didnt exist almost all of Martina's prime though it would come out 28-22, so more along the percentage suwanee gave in Martina's time. In todays court conditions, with no carpet events, slower grass, slower hard courts, faster clay, Steffi would win more than 50% of the time though, although neither would be as happy.
 

jrepac

Hall of Fame
Martina, in her 1984 prime, would be hell for Graf. As others have noted, post 30yrs old Martina gave her tons of problems. Aside from clay, I'd tip towards martina on most of their matchups, maybe as high as 70/30 advantage.

For this reason, along w/her doubles prowess, amazing longevity, I lean towards ranking MN ahead of Steffi, but that's IMHO.
 

BTURNER

Legend
Martina, in her 1984 prime, would be hell for Graf. As others have noted, post 30yrs old Martina gave her tons of problems. Aside from clay, I'd tip towards martina on most of their matchups, maybe as high as 70/30 advantage.

For this reason, along w/her doubles prowess, amazing longevity, I lean towards ranking MN ahead of Steffi, but that's IMHO.

I think you are undoubtedly right if you include doubles in consideration . but then the whole lists look very different don't they with Brough, King, and Dupont finding a place and Evert and Lenglen struggling!
 

CEvertFan

Hall of Fame
I think you are undoubtedly right if you include doubles in consideration . but then the whole lists look very different don't they with Brough, King, and Dupont finding a place and Evert and Lenglen struggling!

And Steffi struggling as well.

I always thought it was a shame that Evert and Navratilova didn't continue to play doubles together but I understand why. If they had I doubt they would be friends today, they needed some distance when the singles rivalry really started to heat up. But it sure would have been fun to see how many doubles majors they could have won together! It would have entwined their legacies even more tightly together.
 
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Graf and Navratilova had they been in their primes together would have been one of the most boring rivalries as it would have mostly been about serves. If Graf served well and Martina didnt have a great serving day for her standards, Martina would be stuck at the baseline by Graf's power and lose pretty easily. Then if Graf didnt have a serving day up to her better standards and Navratilova had one of her best serving days, Martina would be all over the net both on her own and directly off Graf's serve, and Graf who doesnt have the best returns or passing shots, would go down pretty easily. Mostly whichever served better would win each time.

Seles vs Navratilova would have been a far more interesting rivalry.
 

Xavier G

Hall of Fame
I don't think I'd say Navratilova would be a nightmare match up for prime Graf. Graf was too good to be dominated by anyone long term, I feel.

They didn't have too many meetings prime to prime due to the big age gap. Martina got some wins over a young Steffi coming through and a peaking Steffi got some wins over a Martina clearly losing a step.

I like the point suwanee4712 made about a good serve and volleyer maybe having the advantage over a good baseliner. Back in the 80's and 90's, possibly yes.

I would give Martina the edge on grass, faster hard courts and indoor carpet, Steffi the edge on clay and slower hard courts. When I say 'edge', Steffi would still score wins on Martina's surfaces and vice versa.

What I DO like about Martina Navratilova's career is her peak form and consistency, longevity, commitment to improvement, versatility, the fact she played singles AND doubles at these Slam events for so long and still won, and remember, she defected from Czechoslovakia at the age of 18 in the days of the Iron Curtain in the mid-70's. That shows character and at a young age. It took her a while to get her act fully together, but when she did, she cleaned up. She won 167 singles titles and so many in doubles too.

Martina is my personal choice as greatest ever woman player.
 
What I DO like about Martina Navratilova's career is her peak form and consistency.

In terms of all time greats, Navratilova's consistency is not a strength. I would say of the top 8 all time only Serena had worse consistency. Even in her best ever year she still lost 3rd round of a slam. In contrast to Graf, Evert, Lenglen, Wills, who went a decade or longer never dropping to #3 in the World, Navratilova dropped to #5 and ended two years down at #3 after her first couple years at #1. She had many more early tournament losses and early or bad slam losses through her prime years than Graf, Evert, Connolly, Court did.
 

Xavier G

Hall of Fame
In terms of all time greats, Navratilova's consistency is not a strength. I would say of the top 8 all time only Serena had worse consistency. Even in her best ever year she still lost 3rd round of a slam. In contrast to Graf, Evert, Lenglen, Wills, who went a decade or longer never dropping to #3 in the World, Navratilova dropped to #5 and ended two years down at #3 after her first couple years at #1. She had many more early tournament losses and early or bad slam losses through her prime years than Graf, Evert, Connolly, Court did.

I assume you mean the French Open 1983 when Martina lost to Kathy Horvath. That was in the 4th round, not 3rd.
Martina went 86-1 that year. 86 wins out of 87 matches. At her best, she was amazingly consistent over an extended spell. I know Graf has amazing numbers in some of her years too.

Sure, when we talk about Martina, other champions had even better consistency over their careers from start to finish. I know that, I take that into consideration. Evert probably has the best credentials of the modern greats over a long career in that respect.
 
OK fair enough. I dont mean to suggest Navratilova didnt have excellent consistency compared to most slam champions, just not compared to other GOATS IMO. In other words it wouldnt be the reason she is the GOAT if she is. Any women we have seen the last 15 years though, including Serena, would have loved to have had her consistency (granted there is less depth in the womens game back in those days which made consistency easier as well). Evert is definitely #1 all time in consistency. Her consistency based records are mind boggling.

Interesting to note though that Court is above Evert at #1 in all time winning percentage. I wouldnt have guessed that.
 
Anyway going to the matchup further I tend to think the reverse is true. Graf would have been a bad matchup for Navratilova, despite that I think prime Navratilova is the "better" player, I think she also would have lost the majority of head to head meetings.

Primes are subjective but I would say Navratilova's prime was roughly 1983-1989 minus 1988 (a major slump year). I would say Graf's prime was roughly 1988 to 1996, minus 1991 (a major slump year). So that leaves 6 somewhat prime years for Navratilova and 8 somewhat prime years for Graf, and thus we are already giving Steffi more even using those barriers. If anyone feels those periods are inaccurate and would suggest a more logical timeframe than I am all ears.

However if we assume those are fairly good rough estimates that would mean they played 10 matches when Navratilova was in her prime and Graf wasnt, 4 matches when both were, 1 match when both were not, and 3 matches when Graf was and Navratilova wasnt. Their overall head to head is still 9-9.
Lets say for arguments sake you took them born in years and had them play at every major event from say 80-89 for Navratilova and 87-96 for Graf I believe the results would have gone something like this:

Australian Open (rebound ace): Graf wins 8 out of 10
Australina Open (slow grass): Graf wins 6 out of 10
French Open: Graf wins 8 out of 10
Wimbledon:tied 5-5
U.S Open- Graf wins 6 ouf of 10
YEC: Navratilova wins 6 ouf of 10

I do believe Navratilova on faster courts is the better player at her best, but seeing how Graf dismantled her in the 88 Wimbledon final, 89 Wimbledon final, and pretty comfortably took down a very well playing Martina in the 89 YEC, that even for those who DONT feel that was prime Martina, I still see the head to head between them being fairly even there in their primes. Very slow courts Steffi is both the better player and with the bad matchup I think it would be fairly one sided in Graf's favor.

However Graf would never be good enough to dominate Evert so thoroughly, 13 wins in a row in Evert's prime like the great Martina did. Martina would also never be dominated for 2 years by Seles to the extent Graf was, although I dont think Seles would have been a particularly easy matchup for her either. Navratilova admits she doesnt like playing power. She even said in early 85 she would rather play Chris than Hana or Helena Sukova. Sukova is especialy baffling as she isnt in the same stratosphere as Evert as a player, but by that point she probably had more power than Evert, and that is what Martina didnt like facing. Graf is a double problem though as she is every bit as athletic, mentally tougher than Martina (although not as tough mentally as Seles or Evert, but Evert's mentality vs Martina at one point became weak), and has all that power that Martina doesnt like to oppose.
 

BTURNER

Legend
Anyway going to the matchup further I tend to think the reverse is true. Graf would have been a bad matchup for Navratilova, despite that I think prime Navratilova is the "better" player, I think she also would have lost the majority of head to head meetings.

Primes are subjective but I would say Navratilova's prime was roughly 1983-1989 minus 1988 (a major slump year). I would say Graf's prime was roughly 1988 to 1996, minus 1991 (a major slump year). So that leaves 6 somewhat prime years for Navratilova and 8 somewhat prime years for Graf, and thus we are already giving Steffi more even using those barriers. If anyone feels those periods are inaccurate and would suggest a more logical timeframe than I am all ears.

However if we assume those are fairly good rough estimates that would mean they played 10 matches when Navratilova was in her prime and Graf wasnt, 4 matches when both were, 1 match when both were not, and 3 matches when Graf was and Navratilova wasnt. Their overall head to head is still 9-9.
Lets say for arguments sake you took them born in years and had them play at every major event from say 80-89 for Navratilova and 87-96 for Graf I believe the results would have gone something like this:

Australian Open (rebound ace): Graf wins 8 out of 10
Australina Open (slow grass): Graf wins 6 out of 10
French Open: Graf wins 8 out of 10
Wimbledon:tied 5-5
U.S Open- Graf wins 6 ouf of 10
YEC: Navratilova wins 6 ouf of 10

I do believe Navratilova on faster courts is the better player at her best, but seeing how Graf dismantled her in the 88 Wimbledon final, 89 Wimbledon final, and pretty comfortably took down a very well playing Martina in the 89 YEC, that even for those who DONT feel that was prime Martina, I still see the head to head between them being fairly even there in their primes. Very slow courts Steffi is both the better player and with the bad matchup I think it would be fairly one sided in Graf's favor.

However Graf would never be good enough to dominate Evert so thoroughly, 13 wins in a row in Evert's prime like the great Martina did. Martina would also never be dominated for 2 years by Seles to the extent Graf was, although I dont think Seles would have been a particularly easy matchup for her either. Navratilova admits she doesnt like playing power. She even said in early 85 she would rather play Chris than Hana or Helena Sukova. Sukova is especialy baffling as she isnt in the same stratosphere as Evert as a player, but by that point she probably had more power than Evert, and that is what Martina didnt like facing. Graf is a double problem though as she is every bit as athletic, mentally tougher than Martina (although not as tough mentally as Seles or Evert, but Evert's mentality vs Martina at one point became weak), and has all that power that Martina doesnt like to oppose.

I wouldn't put a lot of credence in anything Martina said in 1985 to media about the women she was competing against, especially her arch rival who was actually took the number 1 spot from her for half the year. HEAD GAMES!
 
Good point. Do you think Martina indulged in many of those head games though. Was she that type.

What about Chris. Chris always come across as the epitome of classy and gracious, but I always had a sense there was more to her than meets the eye. I almost suspect her over genorisity in assessing Serena today is in part to place pressure on her.

The comments by Martina I referred to were before Chris broke her losing streak to her in an official match. She probably wouldnt have said the same thing (atleast not stretching as far as Sukova) after.

She did say in a documentary of a few years ago that while Chris was an amazing player, and in her view one of the two best ever along with herself, that during her prime years she felt if she executed she would always beat Chris given their games. She also did say though that Chris was so good and so consistent, she knew she had to be at her best and execute each time. She ended it by saying though she feels in her peak years Hana and Graf would both be tougher opponents for her on a really good day, as they could counter her power with their own type of games better than Chris could. She said it a bit regretfully, like she wished that wasnt the case as she hated having to praise Hana or Steffi over Chris in any kind of indirect way.
 
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Two questions:

1) Why do you think that we have anything like enough evidence about Graf's abilities on the Australian Open grass? [N.B. I wouldn't call it slow grass. Slower than Wimbledon of the time, but not nearly as slow as Wimbledon post-2002 and especially post-2004].

2) Why do you say Graf 6-4 Navratilova at the US Open, when the actual head-to-head was 1-4? Okay, so in 1985 and 1986 Graf was young, but she was actually pretty damn good by the time of the US Open 1986, besides which, Navratilova was old in 1989 and 1991, and was far from her best in 1987.

On an aside, I think Graf would have dominated more on clay than on rebound ace, but I don't think we have enough evidence on rebound ace to know. Navratilova was 31 when she first played on it. It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks.

Anyway going to the matchup further I tend to think the reverse is true. Graf would have been a bad matchup for Navratilova, despite that I think prime Navratilova is the "better" player, I think she also would have lost the majority of head to head meetings.

Primes are subjective but I would say Navratilova's prime was roughly 1983-1989 minus 1988 (a major slump year). I would say Graf's prime was roughly 1988 to 1996, minus 1991 (a major slump year). So that leaves 6 somewhat prime years for Navratilova and 8 somewhat prime years for Graf, and thus we are already giving Steffi more even using those barriers. If anyone feels those periods are inaccurate and would suggest a more logical timeframe than I am all ears.

However if we assume those are fairly good rough estimates that would mean they played 10 matches when Navratilova was in her prime and Graf wasnt, 4 matches when both were, 1 match when both were not, and 3 matches when Graf was and Navratilova wasnt. Their overall head to head is still 9-9.
Lets say for arguments sake you took them born in years and had them play at every major event from say 80-89 for Navratilova and 87-96 for Graf I believe the results would have gone something like this:

Australian Open (rebound ace): Graf wins 8 out of 10
Australina Open (slow grass): Graf wins 6 out of 10
French Open: Graf wins 8 out of 10
Wimbledon:tied 5-5
U.S Open- Graf wins 6 ouf of 10
YEC: Navratilova wins 6 ouf of 10

I do believe Navratilova on faster courts is the better player at her best, but seeing how Graf dismantled her in the 88 Wimbledon final, 89 Wimbledon final, and pretty comfortably took down a very well playing Martina in the 89 YEC, that even for those who DONT feel that was prime Martina, I still see the head to head between them being fairly even there in their primes. Very slow courts Steffi is both the better player and with the bad matchup I think it would be fairly one sided in Graf's favor.

However Graf would never be good enough to dominate Evert so thoroughly, 13 wins in a row in Evert's prime like the great Martina did. Martina would also never be dominated for 2 years by Seles to the extent Graf was, although I dont think Seles would have been a particularly easy matchup for her either. Navratilova admits she doesnt like playing power. She even said in early 85 she would rather play Chris than Hana or Helena Sukova. Sukova is especialy baffling as she isnt in the same stratosphere as Evert as a player, but by that point she probably had more power than Evert, and that is what Martina didnt like facing. Graf is a double problem though as she is every bit as athletic, mentally tougher than Martina (although not as tough mentally as Seles or Evert, but Evert's mentality vs Martina at one point became weak), and has all that power that Martina doesnt like to oppose.
 
Well I did a breakdown of years they would have hypothetically met at the U.S Open if we say 1980-1989 to 1987-1996 is the closest to a stretched out 10 year prime for Navratilova and Graf. One could also argue 1978 to 1987 for Martina, while 1987 to 1996 seems fairly obvious for Graf. So lets say Martina was born in 1964 (or 1962) and you would have the closest scenario to both being in their primes together, if all else remained the same. Now going by years:

1980 Navratilova vs 1987 Graf- Navratilova lost 4th round to Hana. Despite that in actual time Martina beat Graf in straight sets here, it seems fairly obvious Graf wins this one. Graf

1981 Navratilova vs 1988 Graf- Navratilova choked the final badly against Tracy Austin, falling apart in the last 2 sets (despite still nearly winning), blowing a slew of relatively easy forehand finals. Grand Slammer Graf. Graf

1982 Navratilova vs 1989 Graf- Navratilova lost in the quarters to Shriver. She contacted an illness I believe. So despite that an older Navratilova nearly beat Graf, again fairly obvious. Graf.

1983 Navratilova vs 1990 Graf- Navratilova easy. Graf was crushed by Sabatini this year, and Martina was GOATing. Navratilova

1984 Navratilova vs 1991 Graf- Navratilova won their encounter as it was in 91 at 34 years old. Navratilova

1985 Navratilova vs 1992 Graf- Graf went out to Sanchez. Martina lost a great final to Hana. Navratilova

1986 Navratilova vs 1993 Graf- Navratilova was down match points to pre prime Graf who hadnt even reached a slam final yet. Graf

1987 Navatilova vs 1994 Graf- Graf with a back injury fell to Sanchez in 3 sets. Navratilova

1988 Navratilova vs 1995 Graf- Navratilova went out to Garrison. Graf

1989 Navratilova vs 1996 Graf- Graf won the 89 final, and probably would have won the 96 final too. Graf

So here Graf comes out ahead 6-4


Now trying 78-87 instead:

78 Navratilova vs 87 Graf- Martina lost to Shriver in the semis. Fairly likely not strong enough to beat the 87 Graf who she did beat in much stronger form in 1987. Especialy as Graf beat a stronger Shriver more easily in 87. Graf

79 Navratilova vs 88 Graf- Martina lost to Austin. Grand Slammer Graf. Graf

80 Navratilova vs 89 Graf- Graf

81 Navratilova vs 90 Graf- Oh this is a tough one. As mentioned Martina's form fell apart in last 2 sets of final. Was not really a good final at all, Tracy didnt play well at all in winning either. Graf was from her best, but probably still beats Sabatini if she takes 1 of her 2 set points in the 2nd set. 50-50

82 Navratilova vs 91 Graf- Well 34 year old Navratilova beat Graf, who was in very poor form this year. However as mentioned earlier Martina was believed to be sick at the 82 event, and even if she she wasnt still lost to Pam. Graf

83 Navratilova vs 92 Graf- Navratilova

84 Navratilova vs 93 Graf- This is a fairly close one. I dont believe Martina played that well in the 84 final vs Chris. The first set she was spraying errors like no tommorow, and it was mostly her mental ownage of Chris, and her vast superiority in the matchup at that time that won it for her. I honestly think Graf wins, but for arguments sake I will call it 50-50

85 Navratilova vs 94 Graf- Navratilova lost final to inspired Hana but would have beaten Graf who lost to Sanchez Vicario. Martina

86 Navratilova vs 95 Graf- As mentioned Martina nearly lost to baby Graf this year, so I dont see her beating women Graf. Graf

87 Navratilova vs 96 Graf- The 96 Graf was way stronger than the 87 one who was also sick and not in top form at this event. I guess I wil call this 50-50


So in one proposed we have Navratilova up 6-4. The other we have 5 for Graf, 2 for Navratilova and 3 toss ups. If you agree with my breakdown you will see where I came up with my projected estimate from.




To your second question we have no evidence of Graf's abilities on the Australian Open grass. However we do know Martina was nowhere near as formidable on the Australian grass as Wimbledon grass. We do know Martina in general suffered from slower surfaces as compared to Steffi. So based on that I would guess Steffi with a better showing vs Martina on Australian grass than Wimbledon grass, but not as good as bouncy Australian hard courts (which while I believe are probably Graf's worst surface, would also be the hardest place for Martina to have beaten her).
 
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I didn't realize you'd done an actual breakdown. I'll think about it, and get back to you.

I suppose I was thinking about what would happen if they were each in their best form and played a series of matches. At the US Open, at least, it's probably the case that Navratilova's light burned brighter than Graf's but that Graf's light burned longer than Navratilova's. Obviously, Navratilova's light burned longer than Graf's overall, but she took a long time to perform comfortably at the US Open.

Insofar as the question is who would win in a series of matches at their respective bests, I think the answer is Navratilova. The best evidence we have for this is the 1987 final. Graf was not far off her best-ever form and was in fact probably closer to it than Navratilova was. Navratilova still won in straight sets.
 
Well when you think about it I would argue the 87 U.S Open was the 2nd best U.S Open performance Navratilova ever had. 83 is obviously the best. The only other one I would arguably put above it would be 1985, where ironically she still lost to Hana Mandilikova in one of her best performances.

I watched the 84 U.S Open final and I can certainly say without a shadow of a doubt she was playing far better at the 87 event, especialy in the final, than 84, regardless if she was supposed to be more prime in 84. Her play in the 1st set of the 84 final was atrocious, with an avalanche load of easy errors, and Wade spoke of having many patches of that complacent play through the tournament. While in 86 she was down 2 match points to a much weaker Graf, so she obviously wasnt better this year either. Any year from 82 and earlier is obviously out, although in 1981 she was playing very well until unfortunately losing it completely the last 2 sets of the final.

The 89 U.S Open might have even been her 4th best performance there ever behind 83, 85, and 87 as well. She was owning people right and left, and even humiliated one of the Maleeva sisters, who were pretty strong players, with a double bagel. She also led a peak Graf 6-3, 4-2 in the final.

The only time Martina played Graf at the U.S Open that I would even put in her top 5 years of performances there was 1989. I would say Graf's best ever U.S Open performances would be in order something like 1996, 1989, 1988, 1995, 1993, 1994 (she was playing great that event until her back and form both went out completely the last set and half of the final; and had that not happened it might have been her best ever), 1986, 1990, 1987. I actually dont think her 87 play was that great at all. She had a cold at that event, and wasnt up to her form of the rest of that year, and had a tough time with Shriver, and nearly lost to McNeil. She also wasnt as good a player as the following years. The only thing I can see is that is was impressive Martina nearly beat Graf (and should have but choked) in the 89 final, and super impressive that she beat her in 1991 at age 34, regardless how poor Graf was playing in general that year.
 
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BTURNER

Legend
Good point. Do you think Martina indulged in many of those head games though. Was she that type.

What about Chris. Chris always come across as the epitome of classy and gracious, but I always had a sense there was more to her than meets the eye. I almost suspect her over genorisity in assessing Serena today is in part to place pressure on her.

The comments by Martina I referred to were before Chris broke her losing streak to her in an official match. She probably wouldnt have said the same thing (atleast not stretching as far as Sukova) after.

She did say in a documentary of a few years ago that while Chris was an amazing player, and in her view one of the two best ever along with herself, that during her prime years she felt if she executed she would always beat Chris given their games. She also did say though that Chris was so good and so consistent, she knew she had to be at her best and execute each time. She ended it by saying though she feels in her peak years Hana and Graf would both be tougher opponents for her on a really good day, as they could counter her power with their own type of games better than Chris could. She said it a bit regretfully, like she wished that wasnt the case as she hated having to praise Hana or Steffi over Chris in any kind of indirect way.

Has anyone ever told you you over analyze?

while they had great respect, of course they both played head games whther they would have described them as such or not. They were number 1 &2 in the world and had been for ions. Its not like Martina was so blind she could not see Evert gaining some ground from July of '84 on forward as she grew more confident with graphite and the power it offered. To this day there is an undercurrent of competition between the two that simply could not exist with Hana or Steffi. Martina said something similar comparing Mandikova with Evert, right before the Evert-Mandlikova Open Semi of '85 too. LOL, I did not sense any 'regret' at all when I heard that tape. Martina wasn't the type to plot and scheme what to say to have a specific impact, so I don't think she planned it in Machiavellian terms. But then, just as now, what comes out of her mouth too often serves her interest.
 
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DMan

Professional
We never got to see Navratilova and Graf in their primes together. Despite that Graf is generally regarded as the GOAT above Navratilova these days, looknig at their head to head would it suggest a prime Navratilova would have owned a prime Graf? They are 9-9, and played some matches in Martina's prime, then some in Steffi's. However the most telling aspect of their history is this. Their most neutral meeting ground would seem to be the U.S Open. At the U.S Open despite 4 of their 5 matches being when Navratilova was 29 or older, Navratilova won 4 of their 5 matches, and choked away 6-3, 4-2 lead in the only loss. This suggest that Navratilova would have perhaps owned Steffi in their mutual primes, if not neccessarily due to ability, due to the matchup. Or does it. What do you think.

We will of course, never know.

One unfortunate issue with the rivalry was that they only played 18 times in @ 8 years. And, that really is Navratilova's fault. They didn't play in all of 1990, when they were #1 and #2. (OK, blame Steffi for not making the Wimbledon final that year....but then hopefully Martina sent her a huge box of Schnitzel or whatever Steffi likes as a thank you for losing to Zina, enabling Martina to win.) Martina avoided the Australian Open altogether after 1989. Not that I think she would have made a final there. But she would never beat Graf on Rebound Ace.

Yes, the 5 meetings at the US Open have a big advantage for Martina. Two of Martina's wins were upsets. Her 1991 semifinal win - one of the worst matches I have ever seen Graf play, and the 1987 final. But Martina was expected to win in 1985 and 1986. Graf's come from behind win in 1989 demonstrated just how tough a prime Steffi was.

Martina's lefty serve did make it tough for Steffi. And her relentless attacking was another issue. But what I always appreciated about Graf - especially at Wimbledon - was how she was able to attack Navratilova, and take the net away from her. By seizing that initiative, she forced Navratilova to counter attack. And quite frankly, Steffi was better at it.

They didn't play a whole lot indoors. And I do believe Navratilova would have had the upper hand. They only met twice on clay. Their 1987 French final may have been close. But make no mistake; Only a pre-1986 Graf would lose to Navratilova on clay.
 
In fairness to Navratilova she was well into her 30s by 90-94. It isn't surprising she didn't reach far enough to play Graf often. Who knows how Graf would have placed at that age had she continued. Serena seems to be the exception and dominates and plays her best ever tennis (or close to it) at that age.

Still the suggestion that an even past prime Martina was often beating a prime Steffi which some people have tried to perpetuate is completely false. Graf's prime really began in late 87 and lasted through to 1996. So based on that post prime Martina took about a whole 4 years to even post her first win over prime Steffi. If the roles were reversed I Imagine Graf of late 99-2003 (which we never saw but had she kept playing) probably would have gotten her first win over prime Martina from 82 onwards quicker than that.
 
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