Oscar Wegner Tennis Instructor

[JohnYandell]

It was the entire range of his game. All topspin.

Less than 30% were below the center line.

More than 70% were either center line or above.

 

[drakulie]

^^obviously, he wasn't coached by, Oscar.

 

[kiteboard]

I would also like to see how many shots are hit inbetween the 3-7 cross down from the top of the hoop, as this is where the most leverage is, and where my strings wear down and break! Interesting data on Kuerten hitting most of his shots above the center line. I would have thought it would be below, for his topspin game.

 

[sureshs]

Possibilities-

first you assume high speed data was not looked at, so who knows what else was assumed and so little was addressed related to situation.
sounds like 23 of the Fhs were bottom half, which is center and below.
Were the Fhs even topspin (not stated) that you looked at?
Was he in a position to expect control of contact?
Where they heavy topspin shots or possibly others, like taken on the rise, or buggy whips?
etc....

It was the entire range of his game. All topspin.

Less than 30% were below the center line.

More than 70% were either center line or above.

LOL 5263 stop spinning your stories and accept that you hero is wrong

 

[sureshs]

^^obviously, he wasn't coached by, Oscar.

Doesn't Oscar claim he coached Guga? Then why is Guga not obeying him?

Is it because Guga could not find a racquet with a modern sweetspot?

 

[Cindysphinx]

OK, experiment concluded.

I tried to hit off the wall using my normal FH grip (SW) and stance. First, I tried to consciously hit the ball with the lower part of the string bed. Then I tried to hit right in the center of the racket face. I also did some drop feeding -- it was much easier to be sure exactly what I was doing with a drop feed as opposed to a ball coming off the wall. With a drop feed, I was also able to observe what the ball did when it landed, which provided useful information.

You can definitely tell when you hit in the center. You don't need slo mo to tell when you've hit below center, that's for sure. The feel is quite different, and the sound was slightly different.

I have to say, I didn't see any increase or decrease in topspin for the shots hit below center and those hit in the center. The main difference was . . . well, it was the ability to get the ball over the net. My racket face is closed with my SW grip. So making contact on the lower part of the racket had the effect of making the ball go down a tad more, which made many shots not clear the net.

And yeah, there were a *lot* of shanks and framed shots that went straight up into the sky (or over the wall into traffic -- doh!). Those shanked shots had all kinds of crazy spin!

I guess my lay opinion is that it is much more difficult to make contact below the center of the racket yet still control the shot, and the payoff when I was successful was no significant increase in topspin.

And I agree with Hunter, BTW . . .

 

[Power Player]

I notice that I hit on the lower part of the sweetspot, and I think I always have. The reason is really just down to racquet face angle and stroke angle. I have never consciosuly thought to do it.

The downfall is when you mishit, you will get a lot of frames off the bottom inside of the racquet, but that is simply due to closing the racquet face too early and is easily adjusted for.

 

[mike53]

All, I am not sure what "lower" means in the context of this discussion. Does "lower" mean closer to the handle?

 

[Djokovicfan4life]

All, I am not sure what "lower" means in the context of this discussion. Does "lower" mean closer to the handle?

No, they're talking about lower as in closer to the side of the racquet face. Look at post # 75 if I did a crappy job explaining this.

 

[sureshs]

OK, experiment concluded.

I tried to hit off the wall using my normal FH grip (SW) and stance. First, I tried to consciously hit the ball with the lower part of the string bed. Then I tried to hit right in the center of the racket face. I also did some drop feeding -- it was much easier to be sure exactly what I was doing with a drop feed as opposed to a ball coming off the wall. With a drop feed, I was also able to observe what the ball did when it landed, which provided useful information.

You can definitely tell when you hit in the center. You don't need slo mo to tell when you've hit below center, that's for sure. The feel is quite different, and the sound was slightly different.

I have to say, I didn't see any increase or decrease in topspin for the shots hit below center and those hit in the center. The main difference was . . . well, it was the ability to get the ball over the net. My racket face is closed with my SW grip. So making contact on the lower part of the racket had the effect of making the ball go down a tad more, which made many shots not clear the net.

And yeah, there were a *lot* of shanks and framed shots that went straight up into the sky (or over the wall into traffic -- doh!). Those shanked shots had all kinds of crazy spin!

I guess my lay opinion is that it is much more difficult to make contact below the center of the racket yet still control the shot, and the payoff when I was successful was no significant increase in topspin.

And I agree with Hunter, BTW . . .

I think it will be very difficult for a recreational player. Might be easier in table tennis, where there is no "frame".

I have never heard of a coach who actually teaches this.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I think it will be very difficult for a recreational player. Might be easier in table tennis, where there is no "frame".

I have never heard of a coach who actually teaches this.

Yeah, the framed shots were weird. I don't recall framing shots in quite that way when I do frame a shot. I think I am most likely to frame a shot by hitting off the part of the racket farthest from the handle or close to the handle.

Anyway, if MTM is for beginners and the Wegner book is about learning tennis in a few hours, then I think this idea must be for the rec player, right?

 

[sureshs]

Anyway, if MTM is for beginners and the Wegner book is about learning tennis in a few hours, then I think this idea must be for the rec player, right?

Ah, but everyone is a learner all his/her life. In a few hours, Federer could become #1 again by reading the book. Or a beginner who has never picked up a racquet before can become a 3.5 and hit below the sweetspot. It is all up to you.

The Master just points the Student in the right direction. The Student must drink deeply of the knowledge on his own. One day, the Student will become the Master, and then the Master's duty is over.

 

[onehandbh]

Most of my shanks on my FH tend to be towards the bottom of the
string bed. For some reason they often end up landing in with a topspin
lob-like trajectory. I'd rather not shank at all though.

 

[5263]

It was the entire range of his game. All topspin.

Less than 30% were below the center line.

More than 70% were either center line or above.

and 59% were center line and below even by your biased count with no discretion noted as to quality of the look he was getting for the shot.

 

[JohnYandell]

I thought the idea was to hit below center. Did I get that wrong? If you hit in the dead center of the racket I thought that was not ideal. Is the center now below center?

I reported only the facts on what the video showed. I was curious because I thought maybe there was something about the way these guys hit forehands that I had missed.

You're using the term biased because the facts in this case don't match a claim that was made without evidence. But that's not the term I would use.

You can get the DVD yourself and study them. Then you'd been basing your views on data.

 

[TenniseaWilliams]

and 59% were center line and below even by your biased count with no discretion noted as to quality of the look he was getting for the shot.

"The other critical factor in returning a hard ball is not to meet the ball head on. Deflect it with the lower part of the strings." -- Oscar Wegner

I don't see anything in the statement above that would lead anyone to conclude that the center of the racquet is included in this instruction. Your accusation of bias is silly, given your own willfully ignorant viewpoint. I would think as a certified MTM coach, (and as someone with access to Oscar himself) you would have been able to clarify this issue with him long ago if you really wanted to.

As another reminder to you, here is a complete and unedited post from the thread a year ago (that you participated in) on this same topic.

MichaelChang, thank you.:???: Here is one of my old tips, accompanied by video that a friend found and forwarded to me.

Tip of the Week: Off-center hits

One of the most common mantras in tennis is: hit the ball in the sweet spot. Is that now a misconception of old tech?

With the new racquets, this sweet spot has expanded. On the old ones, the size was about 3 inches in diameter. Today it is about twice as large.

Regardless of the size of the sweetspot, players today hit either on the sweetspot edge or outside of it. In many instances they almost seem to frame the hit.

Why is that? Well, first of all, modern racquets are very responsive. Too responsive in the sweet spot. And quite light, thereby not dependable as to stability.

It is much better to hit closer to the edge, especially on groundstrokes. Top players hold the racquet quite loose, and if they hit above the center the racquet tends to open and they overshoot the target. Hitting on the center is too wobbly, a quarter of an inch up and the racquet tends to open, a bit below the center and the racquet tends to close.

And that is the secret. Even though players may not know it consciously, they most likely feel it and learn it from experience. The result of low center hits is to keep the racquet closed, and therefore the ball safely in the court. Mind that top players assure net clearance by taking quite a margin above it. Sit at court level and you'll see this aspect of the game. Plenty of net clearance.

The problem of overhitting the target is usually hitting too flat. Hitting near the bottom edge of the racquet ensures more topspin, and keeps the racquet closed.

The opposite is true for volleys and slice. The contact is then above the center, which helps keep the racquet angle open. On volleys, though, very seldom pros go as close to the frame as they do on groundstrokes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk1eqm_vazU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inQvbT8uEGk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNPaZj4yn00

 

[deluxe]

You can get the DVD yourself and study them. Then you'd been basing your views on data.

The data is irrelevant. Making physical sense is irrelevant. Didn't you know Oscar played internationally and "compared notes" with some great players from the '60s? Didn't you know he revolutionized spanish tennis in 1970? Guga must be hitting his groundstrokes below the centerline and closer to the throat - Oscar once met guga when guga was 10!

 

[sureshs]

and 59% were center line and below even by your biased count with no discretion noted as to quality of the look he was getting for the shot.

So when data does not match your hero's sayings, it is biased?

 

[SFrazeur]

This is ridicules.

I suppose the slightly off center hits have nothing to do with slightly off timing and contact from receiving and generating massive amounts of topspin from the best players in the world.

-SF

 

[sureshs]

"The other critical factor in returning a hard ball is not to meet the ball head on. Deflect it with the lower part of the strings." -- Oscar Wegner

I don't see anything in the statement above that would lead anyone to conclude that the center of the racquet is included in this instruction. Your accusation of bias is silly, given your own willfully ignorant viewpoint. I would think as a certified MTM coach, (and as someone with access to Oscar himself) you would have been able to clarify this issue with him long ago if you really wanted to.

Dissent may not be encouraged.

 

[JohnYandell]

It's an interesting question--how consistently and on what particularly balls, if any, do the top players hit the center?

In the next month we'll have over 100 new high speed high def clips of Federer's forehand. Maybe someone on the board can do the counting this time.

 

[5263]

"The other critical factor in returning a hard ball is not to meet the ball head on. Deflect it with the lower part of the strings." -- Oscar Wegner

I don't see anything in the statement above that would lead anyone to conclude that the center of the racquet is included in this instruction.

Yes, here is the quote you bring up-

With the new racquets, this sweet spot has expanded. On the old ones, the size was about 3 inches in diameter. Today it is about twice as large.
*but wait, I thought you guys said he claimed the whole racket was the sweetspot. Yes, I know that some of you posted a pic, but it did not show the whole racket either and was the same as Mcenroe's pic.

another quote u provide-
And that is the secret. Even though players may not know it consciously, they most likely feel it and learn it from experience.
*does not say they train to do it, but merely gives his opinion.

Of course none of these facts YOU provide matter, as you are happy to raise a fuss with Suresh, who I guess you agree with that adding some wt to the top of the racket is a big secret.... maybe someone should invent a lead tape to facilitate this process??

And all of this over something that is not even a central Issue IMO and way hard to prove to folks who can't even understand "accel up and across the ball".

 

[sureshs]

Of course none of these facts YOU provide matter, as you are happy to raise a fuss with Suresh, who I guess you agree with that adding some wt to the top of the racket is a big secret.

The differences from your situation are:

• He need not agree with me - dissent is encouraged
• It is my personal experience - not based on somebody else
• It can actually be done
• People have provided proof it actually happens

 

[TenniseaWilliams]

Yes, here is the quote you bring up-

With the new racquets, this sweet spot has expanded. On the old ones, the size was about 3 inches in diameter. Today it is about twice as large.
*but wait, I thought you guys said he claimed the whole racket was the sweetspot. Yes, I know that some of you posted a pic, but it did not show the whole racket either and was the same as Mcenroe's pic.

A 6" diameter sweetspot (double the old 3" one) covers all but the last two mains on my racquet.

You might be better served exploring this matter with your teacher, (and tennis instruction authority) you seem to be consistently misrepresenting him and MTM teachings on this matter. From the old thread again:

Suresh, did you check the three videos I attached?

Yes I did. You may not remember, but in a deleted thread, I was the FIRST person to bring up this topic. In that post, I said I had noticed that Nadal seemed to hit topspin from the lower half of his frame. If I had not made that post then, we would not be discussing it now.

Then drakulie posted video evidence that pros hit all over the frame depending on circumstances, and then others pointed out that where they hit it is not a conscious decision but the outcome of the swingpath, racquet face angle, and so forth.

Correct, Suresh, and let me thank you first for bringing this fact to the surface. If you look at those videos, you'll see that they sometimes hit anywhere, including above the sweet spot. But if you look at percentages, it's mostly below the center, as you spotted. In the Federer video, which is the last one I posted on that tip, Roger hits a couple above the center and the racquet opens up slightly. But most of the hits are below. And you are right, it is not a conscious decision, it's instinctive, something they learned that feels better, and has better results (they'll know it consciously as well if they are coached by me, Ha Ha).

 

[5263]

A 6" diameter sweetspot (double the old 3" one) covers all but the last two mains on my racquet.

You might be better served exploring this matter with your teacher, (and tennis instruction authority) you seem to be consistently misrepresenting him and MTM teachings on this matter. From the old thread again:

I can agree except IMO this is not important enough to me at the point to go into (maybe not as unimportant as the size of the sweetspot thing, but close). Maybe down the road I will have an interest in this.

 

[bhupaes]

I started visualizing hitting slightly below the middle of the racquet face for topspin shots, after I read about this in one of Oscar's messages a while ago, and it works very well for me. I use a semi-western grip and hold the racquet very loose. My grip size is 4 3/8. This makes a lot of sense to me since this preserves the racquet face alignment as I want it. For some reason, this gives a lot more control than a dead-center contact, for heavy topspin shots. I believe Oscar has hit the nail dead-center on the head, on this topic.

I have a feeling this will happen naturally most of the time given the mechanics of heavy topspin. The player will usually aim for the center, but due to the heavy upward motion of the racquet, actual contact will tend to be lower. Making contact above the middle, especially with a loose grip, feels so much like a mishit that the player will probably automatically adjust the contact to be lower. Just IMO.

 

[tlm]

I started visualizing hitting slightly below the middle of the racquet face for topspin shots, after I read about this in one of Oscar's messages a while ago, and it works very well for me. I use a semi-western grip and hold the racquet very loose. My grip size is 4 3/8. This makes a lot of sense to me since this preserves the racquet face alignment as I want it. For some reason, this gives a lot more control than a dead-center contact, for heavy topspin shots. I believe Oscar has hit the nail dead-center on the head, on this topic.

I have a feeling this will happen naturally most of the time given the mechanics of heavy topspin. The player will usually aim for the center, but due to the heavy upward motion of the racquet, actual contact will tend to be lower. Making contact above the middle, especially with a loose grip, feels so much like a mishit that the player will probably automatically adjust the contact to be lower. Just IMO.

This is a very good post, i think this is what really happens.

 

[sureshs]

I started visualizing hitting slightly below the middle of the racquet face for topspin shots, after I read about this in one of Oscar's messages a while ago, and it works very well for me. I use a semi-western grip and hold the racquet very loose. My grip size is 4 3/8. This makes a lot of sense to me since this preserves the racquet face alignment as I want it. For some reason, this gives a lot more control than a dead-center contact, for heavy topspin shots. I believe Oscar has hit the nail dead-center on the head, on this topic.

I have a feeling this will happen naturally most of the time given the mechanics of heavy topspin. The player will usually aim for the center, but due to the heavy upward motion of the racquet, actual contact will tend to be lower. Making contact above the middle, especially with a loose grip, feels so much like a mishit that the player will probably automatically adjust the contact to be lower. Just IMO.

That is all right, except video is the proof if it actually happens. In Guga's stroke analysis, apparently not.

 

[TenniseaWilliams]