Oscar Wegner Tennis Instructor

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Although you are correct in your statement that we haven't had the accopmplishments that Oscar has in regards to coaching, it doesn't mean we can't question his methods.

and since oscar knows so much, why don't you back up his claim that the entire string bed is a sweet spot, or prove his theory (which is incorrect) that pros hit closer to the frame than in the center.

One more thing, contrary to Oscar and his disciples saying he is the "father of the modern game", name me one thing he has developed that has been around since before he started teaching? (other than falling backwards on a groundstroke, which is a joke).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpocoSPRkMA&list=QL&feature=BF

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkDIFP4SK9Q&list=QL&feature=BF

Here are a couple of videos of the many that show roddick+
fed hitting the ball off center towards the bottom of the frame.
This shows clear as day what oscar was saying.But i am sure
that you can still deny that they are hitting the ball off center.
 
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tlm

G.O.A.T.
So what? Any one can get books published and do marketing.

This is the internet dude, get used to it. The old days of controlled book writing with forewords from your pals and fawning TV clips are over. If you put something up here, like modern sweetspot as large as the frame, or hitting across the ball while falling backward, you will be skewered.


Wow dude this is really the internet, you mean where
nobodys like you can question an established tennis
expert.Oscar had a tennis instruction tv show, so he
must have had something to contribute.He has taught all
over the world+has made a good living for years teaching
tennis.

But i am sure he has nothing on you, so many of you are
so jealous it is pathetic.
 

MrFonzi

New User
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpocoSPRkMA&list=QL&feature=BF

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkDIFP4SK9Q&list=QL&feature=BF

Here are a couple of videos of the many that show roddick+
fed hitting the ball off center towards the bottom of the frame.
This shows clear as day what oscar was saying.But i am sure
that you can still deny that they are hitting the ball off center.

I may not be a pro but I have played at about the highest level below pro and believe me when I say YOU CANNOT INTENTIONALLY HIT BELOW THE SWEET SPOT CONSISTENTLY.

There are several other posters on this board who have posted videos and demonstrated that they play at a reasonably high standard (TonLars is the first to come to mind). I'm sure they have an opinion similar to mine on this topic, if they wish to share their wisdom. In fact you dont even need to be an accomplished player. I recommend you go out and have a hit and consciously focus on mishitting the ball and let me know the results. I tried this the other day when this exact topic was brought up since this mishit concept was new to me.

Posting 2 videos of 2 random forehands from Fed and ARod doesnt prove anything. From my many countless hours of coaching I have never once been told that I will get a more efficient shot from from an off centre hit. I will accept that hitting with large amounts of topspin will create a larger grouping off the string bed, BUT THIS IS NOT INTENTIONAL!!

Now I doubt that Oscar's entire system is based around this concept and I have also heard that for beginners MTM gets results, so back on topic, shall we conclude that MTM works for some and not for others.
 

deluxe

Semi-Pro
Nice link. here is a small excerpt that illustrates how far he goes to give credit to those that developed and mastered these strokes before him.

**********
Roy Emerson, John Newcombe, Tony Roche and Manuel Santana, he compared notes with them and began his search into the secrets of their success.

Wegner launched his coaching career in 1968, first as an assistant to the incomparable Pancho Segura at the famous Beverly Hills Tennis Club in California, a job that included daily exchanges with former World Champion Pancho Gonzalez. It was there that he made the crucial observation that tennis was being taught one way while the pros played in an entirely different way.

Wegner set out to resolve this discrepancy. His research led him to isolate the actual basis of tennis that apply to any player at any level, whether a pro, an intermediate player, or a beginner. He developed, as well, a teaching methodology to communicate those basics to players and coaches alike. This approach, from its inception, has produced remarkable results, not only in Wegner's hands, but by other coaches as well.

In 1973 he served as the Junior Davis Cup Captain for Spain and as one of the National coaches for the Spanish Federation’s Tennis School in Barcelona. That country was then at a crossroads in terms of which direction its tennis instruction should take. Wegner's views in favor of a modern approach to coaching the game prevailed.

There are lots of things in here that set my BS senses tingling.
If I ask Federer how he hits his FH, am I "comparing notes" with him and "starting my search"?
He starts off as a coach in 1968, moves to Barcelona and gets a job as a random coach at the Spanish federation. I've no idea why he thinks 1973 was a particular crossroads, and how Wegner's "modern approach" won out over the more senior coaches presumably "antiquated approach", but I can't imagine what Wegner was teaching in 1973 with tiny headed wooden 14 ounce rackets mostly for play on grass has anything much to do with the way Rafa Nadal plays today.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
I may not be a pro but I have played at about the highest level below pro and believe me when I say YOU CANNOT INTENTIONALLY HIT BELOW THE SWEET SPOT CONSISTENTLY.

There are several other posters on this board who have posted videos and demonstrated that they play at a reasonably high standard (TonLars is the first to come to mind). I'm sure they have an opinion similar to mine on this topic, if they wish to share their wisdom. In fact you dont even need to be an accomplished player. I recommend you go out and have a hit and consciously focus on mishitting the ball and let me know the results. I tried this the other day when this exact topic was brought up since this mishit concept was new to me.

Posting 2 videos of 2 random forehands from Fed and ARod doesnt prove anything. From my many countless hours of coaching I have never once been told that I will get a more efficient shot from from an off centre hit. I will accept that hitting with large amounts of topspin will create a larger grouping off the string bed, BUT THIS IS NOT INTENTIONAL!!

Now I doubt that Oscar's entire system is based around this concept and I have also heard that for beginners MTM gets results, so back on topic, shall we conclude that MTM works for some and not for others.

Where did i say that they hit the ball lower on the stringbed
intentionally? I never once said that, i just noticed a lot of
times when watching slow motion film of pro players that
the ball will hit lower.I never said all the time or that they
are doing this intentionally.You say 2 random
forehands, you better watch it again.Roddick
hits more than 2 + they all hit lower on the
stringbed.

I would never suggest trying to hit off center.I dont recall anyone suggesting to hit this way.I remember Oscar pointing out that if you watch
a lot of film you will notice that the ball is hit
lower on the sringbed.

I took it as just an observation, not a suggestion
to try and hit that way.
 
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5263

G.O.A.T.
Where did i say that they hit the ball lower on the stringbed
intentionally? I never once said that, i just noticed a lot of
times when watching slow motion film of pro players that
the ball will hit lower.I never said all the time or that they
are doing this intentionally.You say 2 random
forehands, you better watch it again.Roddick
hits more than 2 + they all hit lower on the
stringbed.

I would never suggest trying to hit off center.I dont recall anyone suggesting to hit this way.I remember Oscar pointing out that if you watch
a lot of film you will notice that the ball is hit
lower on the sringbed.

I took it as just an observation, not a suggestion
to try and hit that way.

IMO it is also important to note that the lower half includes the center, and that the lower half is most often used on the steeper swings. There are plenty of times that you won't see this, such as taking the ball on the rise, half volleys, aggressive mid ct attacks, or any stroke where heavy TS is not the goal, so it is easy to show various exceptions.
It is also important to note that players do often hit all over the string bed at times, just as another poster mentioned.
 
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drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpocoSPRkMA&list=QL&feature=BF

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkDIFP4SK9Q&list=QL&feature=BF

Here are a couple of videos of the many that show roddick+
fed hitting the ball off center towards the bottom of the frame.
This shows clear as day what oscar was saying.But i am sure
that you can still deny that they are hitting the ball off center.


Showing one video of Roddick, which btw hits near dead center on a few shots, and one of Fed hitting one shot, which BTW, is not hitting in the spot Oscar suggest, is hardly proof of what Oscar preaches.

Fact is, as has already been pointed out, pros do not "purposely" hit in the area Oscar advocates.

These are all videos I took:

Roger Federer (during a point)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zZsGa_YTCw&feature=channel


Roger Federer (during a point: inside out fh)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTGlZoaPrhc&feature=channel

Roger Federer (practice)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVNia4A9BTM&feature=channel

Roger Federer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVNia4A9BTM&feature=channel

Rafa Nadal:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5fECVr2IPE&feature=channel

Venus Williams:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wtrk-y24hNY

James Blake:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wtrk-y24hNY

John Isner:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ex0iyi2UuCY&feature=channel

Andy Murray:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlJeBkwX7sw

Mardy Fish:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huDPxUj8yLc

Taylor Dent:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ex8F6udXyg&feature=channel

Justine Henin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBioEMX2IdM&feature=channel

Fernando Gonzalez:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAeMcNXoIKs&feature=channel

Daniela hantuchova:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3koV2YI2-gc



I have many more I haven't bothered uploading. I assure you, as I said before, for the most part they are hitting around dead center. At no time have I noticed any trend of them hitting in the spot Oscar advocates, to make me think they are purposely hitting below the sweet spot and around the 9 0'clock position.

And yes, I am not as "accomplished as him", or near as full of **** as him either.
 
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5263

G.O.A.T.
Showing one video of Roddick, which btw hits near dead center on a few shots, and one of Fed hitting one shot, which BTW, is not hitting in the spot Oscar suggest, is hardly proof of what Oscar preaches.

Fact is, as has already been pointed out, pros do not "purposely" hit in the area Oscar advocates.

These are all videos I took:

I quit watching after the J Blake vid that was actually Venus, but anyway, every TS shot except one by Fed was struck from the middle or lower on the string bed (which constitutes the lower half). That one shot by Fed that looked to strike in the upper half did appear to be TS, but his was backing up and struggling just to get that one back during a point.
These were your vids, but they are evidence to Oscar's observation. It was more clear than I expected, especially coming from vid you provided??

Maybe Oscar said "purposefully", but I thought he just stated that was what was happening, and that maybe they are not even aware of how often they tend to mk contact with the lower half when hitting serious topspin.
please notice I did not insult or cuss you, so maybe we can have a more mature discussion.
 

TenniseaWilliams

Professional
I assume that the string and stencil wear from advanced players would indicate where the majority of the ball impacts occur.

Near the center.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Where did i say that they hit the ball lower on the stringbed
intentionally? I never once said that, i just noticed a lot of
times when watching slow motion film of pro players that
the ball will hit lower.

Exactly. So it is not a teaching thing.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
There are lots of things in here that set my BS senses tingling.
If I ask Federer how he hits his FH, am I "comparing notes" with him and "starting my search"?
He starts off as a coach in 1968, moves to Barcelona and gets a job as a random coach at the Spanish federation. I've no idea why he thinks 1973 was a particular crossroads, and how Wegner's "modern approach" won out over the more senior coaches presumably "antiquated approach", but I can't imagine what Wegner was teaching in 1973 with tiny headed wooden 14 ounce rackets mostly for play on grass has anything much to do with the way Rafa Nadal plays today.

Exactly, that is the point. Taking credit where it is not earned.
 

WilsonPlayer101

Professional
You didnt but Oscar did!!

I vaguely remember him saying something like that also but I have not watched his show in ages. I think those who might not like his style of teaching should try out some of his techiques and see how it goes. Might work well.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
I vaguely remember him saying something like that also but I have not watched his show in ages. I think those who might not like his style of teaching should try out some of his techiques and see how it goes. Might work well.


You are right they should try it instead of just bashing
his methods.But believe me that will not happen, they
would much rather keep bad rapping oscar.

There is some real hatred here when it comes to oscar.
Many here are still teaching methods that are the opposite
of what he does.Plus he does come on strong+promotes
his methods with some salesmanship.It is not unusual for
someone promoting their product to get a little carried away.

But to me i could care less if he is exaggerating some or using
some sensationalism. I know
that he has some really good ways of teaching tennis that
works.That should be the bottom line.It has always amazed
me how a tennis site like this could have so many people
that wont even give his methods a chance.They would much
rather sit at their keyboard + debate that he said this or that.
 

JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
5263,

Have we in fact interacted personally over a period of years? Not sure I've had the pleasure of actually meeting you. Refresh me on that please.

John Yandell
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
5263,

Have we in fact interacted personally over a period of years? Not sure I've had the pleasure of actually meeting you. Refresh me on that please.

John Yandell

I wouldn't expect you to remember, as I expect that you meet an enormous amount of people each yr in this industry, especially in your type work. We talked in the past about you filming my child along with several aspects on strokes, in person along with ph and email. I will say i have learned much from your work (video) and have highly recommended your sites thru the years.
 
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drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
I quit watching after the J Blake vid that was actually Venus, but anyway, every TS shot except one by Fed was struck from the middle or lower on the string bed (which constitutes the lower half). That one shot by Fed that looked to strike in the upper half did appear to be TS, but his was backing up and struggling just to get that one back during a point.
These were your vids, but they are evidence to Oscar's observation. It was more clear than I expected, especially coming from vid you provided??

In regards to the issue being discussed, the only thing these videos represent, is your and Oscars' inability to properly comprehend and interpret what you are looking at. I assure you, that when you pause the video when the ball meets the strings, they are hitting approximately dead center. There is absolutley no trend that the pros are hitting below the sweet spot and near the 9 o'clock position, as oscar and you allude to.

But have fun teaching others to hit the ball near the frame at the 9 0'clock position. :roll:
 
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sureshs

Bionic Poster
Drakulie has provided videos and photos before, showing pros hitting all over the face.

And many times they are hitting below the sweetspot also (though mind you with a modern sweetspot, that is a contradiction in terms as the sweetspot extends almost to the edge, so there is nothing below that).

Now, the important questions are:

1. Can it be done deliberately?
2. Should it be taught?

I don't think so. Maybe some pros are so finely tuned they can do it deliberately in some situations.

I look at it like this: imagine a suitcase sitting flat on a table as if you are ging to open it, except instead of one handle, it has 5 handles, all in a vertical line, one above the other. If you want to grab the suitcase, you will use the middle handle for stability. But if you want to tip it, which is like hitting low to high with TS, you will grab the lowest handle, as it gives the most torque.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Now, the important questions are:

1. Can it be done deliberately?
2. Should it be taught?

I don't think so.

I think you make some good points here and am inclined to agree. Guess I have to go back and look, but don't recall Oscar saying it was deliberate or teaching anyone to do it. He didn't suggest to me that I should, but noted that it happened quite often with modern strokes to good effect. IMO you can also note that it doesn't happen as much with more classic strokes.

People will tell you that dwell time does not allow you to scrape the strings across the ball, but I know I have hit shots that got frame at the top, strings, then frame again at the bottom, thus frame to frame with big spin. I feel that often with MTM strokes I contact near the center and pull the strings across the ball to near the frame at the bottom (on a slight diagonal). Even if the feel is not accurate, it is important, as it is the feel that we play by. I also see this in the vids drak provided. The balls tended to arrive near the center, but departed lower on heavy TS shots.

This is my take on this sideline issue, which has little relevance to anything that I can see, other than argue about an observation that Oscar had noted.
 
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sureshs

Bionic Poster
^^^^ I think there is something to the scraping thing, even though it is difficult to prove. Personal anecdotes can be misleading as human reaction times are not that low to detect this sort of thing.

One example might be the the way pros sometimes go over a ball with a wrist motion. Like Federer will sometimes do a last millisecond flick over his backhand to turn the ball in a given direction. Why would he do that if there is no scraping during impact?
 

Off The Wall

Semi-Pro
Over the years I've noticed that when my strings break, they don't break in the sweet spot. They break down the frame a couple of inches.

Also, If I am able to set up properly, I will intentionally hit down the frame for more power.

I am saying, I don't think the pros are going for the center of the sweet spot, but its extremities.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
I vaguely remember him saying something like that also but I have not watched his show in ages. I think those who might not like his style of teaching should try out some of his techiques and see how it goes. Might work well.

I have some info on clinics in your area if you want to provide me with a PM, email, or method of contact.
 

TenniseaWilliams

Professional
...
Guess I have to go back and look, but don't recall Oscar saying it was deliberate or teaching anyone to do it...

From Play Better Tennis in 2 Hours, p150
70xutz.jpg


I found the image on this thread from last year.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=302859

:lol:
 

aimr75

Hall of Fame
Three awesome Federer forehand examples in Slow Motion, for your viewing pleasure. Hitting tospin at the bottom of the strings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkJ3j9gcInA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r019USm2cdw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPKmiQrEgvY

the last 2 clips are the same shot

Without even trying too hard, here are several where he hits pretty much dead centre

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmhvKafCYsk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo_zuz7bcLQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pM0jYWfVFMw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvZ7prb43Lk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z48-SP86LPU
 

Wegner

Rookie
the last 2 clips are the same shot

AIMR75: Without even trying too hard, here are several where he hits pretty much dead centre

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmhvKafCYsk OSCAR'S COMMENT: SLIGHTLY BELOW CENTER

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo_zuz7bcLQ OSCAR' COMMENT: SLIGHTLY ABOVE CENTER

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pM0jYWfVFMw OSCAR'S COMMENT: HALF WAY BETWEEN CENTER AND FRAME, WELL BELOW THE DEAD CENTER

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvZ7prb43Lk OSCAR'S COMMENT: TOWARDS TIP OF THE RACQUET, SLIGHTLY BELOW THE HORIZONTAL CENTER

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z48-SP86LPU OSCAR'S COMMENT: CENTER

Above, I commented where the contact occurred on each of the videos you submitted.

PERCENTAGE WISE, WHEN HE IS PLAYING WELL, FEDERER HITS MOSTLY BELOW THE CENTER. SO DID AGASSI AND A MULTITUDE OF THE BEST PLAYERS, INCLUDING LAVER. IT TAKES THE STRESS FROM HAVING TO TIGHTEN UP THE GRIP TO KEEP THE RACQUET SLIGHTLY CLOSED ON GROUNDSTROKES. As an example of deliberately coaching it, I taught hitting below the center to Kuerten when he was a kid, and he was able to keep the forehand grip quite loose.
 

aimr75

Hall of Fame
Above, I commented where the contact occurred on each of the videos you submitted.

PERCENTAGE WISE, WHEN HE IS PLAYING WELL, FEDERER HITS MOSTLY BELOW THE CENTER. SO DID AGASSI AND A MULTITUDE OF THE BEST PLAYERS, INCLUDING LAVER. IT TAKES THE STRESS FROM HAVING TO TIGHTEN UP THE GRIP TO KEEP THE RACQUET SLIGHTLY CLOSED ON GROUNDSTROKES. As an example of deliberately coaching it, I taught hitting below the center to Kuerten when he was a kid, and he was able to keep the forehand grip quite loose.

thats why i said its "pretty much" dead centre and not exactly dead centre.. would be interested to see what percentage federer hits below centre when he is playing well versus other areas of the string bed
 

MrFonzi

New User
I'm still not sure what you claim is the advantage to hitting it off centre? More power? More control? More spin?

Obviously the string bed will pocket the ball less and the trampoline effect wont be as effective in creating power or spin. Not only that but hitting closer to the frame causes more vibrations transferred to my arm as the strings wont absorb the shock as effectively. Am I right in this assumption?
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Obviously the string bed will pocket the ball less and the trampoline effect wont be as effective in creating power or spin. Not only that but hitting closer to the frame causes more vibrations transferred to my arm as the strings wont absorb the shock as effectively. Am I right in this assumption?

I think you are right on here in the first part
and that about the shock, there is an amount of shock that is increased if you pocket more above the center, opposed to pocketing less below the center, due to racket twist. Below center the slight twist is also helpful (helps with proper racket face tilt), but above it tends to tramp cause of slight opening twist.

I know we have the whole sweet spot debate, but we can agree that some parts are sweeter than others and it moves some based on the stroke (more 12 oclock for serves, more 6 oclock for gstrokes)
IMO the best sweetspot for steep modern swings is below center and slightly towards the throat.
 
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TenniseaWilliams

Professional
Now, the important questions are:

1. Can it be done deliberately?
2. Should it be taught?

I don't think so.

I think you make some good points here and am inclined to agree. Guess I have to go back and look, but don't recall Oscar saying it was deliberate or teaching anyone to do it. He didn't suggest to me that I should, but noted that it happened quite often with modern strokes to good effect. IMO you can also note that it doesn't happen as much with more classic strokes.

People will tell you that dwell time does not allow you to scrape the strings across the ball, but I know I have hit shots that got frame at the top, strings, then frame again at the bottom, thus frame to frame with big spin. I feel that often with MTM strokes I contact near the center and pull the strings across the ball to near the frame at the bottom (on a slight diagonal). Even if the feel is not accurate, it is important, as it is the feel that we play by. I also see this in the vids drak provided. The balls tended to arrive near the center, but departed lower on heavy TS shots.

It is curious that one of MTM's most vocal representatives on the boards seems to have reservations about how much of the MTM "feel" actually exists versus being useful but inaccurate mental images.

Should MTM be used/taught as a complete system, or can it be filtered through more conventional methods, each certified instructor able to represent MTM according to their own sensibilities?




Today I added some lead at 12 to see if I can get a modern sweetspot.

Next time, try it on your racquet.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
It is curious that one of MTM's most vocal representatives on the boards seems to have reservations about how much of the MTM "feel" actually exists versus being useful but inaccurate mental images.

Should MTM be used/taught as a complete system, or can it be filtered through more conventional methods, each certified instructor able to represent MTM according to their own sensibilities?
.

I have zero reservations about the importance of feel, along with useful mental images. What makes a mental image accurate or inaccurate? Images like thinking of throwing your racket over the fence when serving can be very accurate in the aspect of the effect, but not requiring you to actually throw the racket. Even better is the jumping on groundstrokes, which you actually do, but not the mental image that best accompanies the technique.

As to using your own sensibilities; I'd say most instructors of MTM start this way. I'm sure many stay this way, but Maybe part of why some of us tend to be excited about the training is that over time with using the system, you find more and more of it to be quite useful and effective.

I initially got into it because I was impressed by the focus on pulling across for the TS Fh shots, but later own was even more impressed on how it facilitated control and feel on my slices and volleys (which i didn't feel I needed any help with, as they were my strong points relative to other players). Next thing I knew, I had a pretty good drop shot, which was something i had practically given up on and decided i didn't need really.

Is it possible to build a perfect system? Is that expected? I was just very happy with an excellent system, but over time I find that even the areas that I questioned initially turned out to be correct so far. I'm glad to admit that this hitting at the bottom of the racket is something I don't have a handle on yet, but I'm not betting against Oscar when it comes to tennis strokes. His record on issues looks pretty good to me, but by all means; pick and choose what you like! and it might be a good idea to keep an open mind on the rest.
 
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TenniseaWilliams

Professional
I have zero reservations about the importance of feel, along with useful mental images. What makes a mental image accurate or inaccurate? Images like thinking of throwing your racket over the fence when serving can be very accurate in the aspect of the effect, but not requiring you to actually throw the racket. Even better is the jumping on groundstrokes, which you actually do, but not the mental image that best accompanies the technique.

As to using your own sensibilities; I'd say most instructors of MTM start this way. I'm sure many stay this way, but Maybe part of why some of us tend to be excited about the training is that over time with using the system, you find more and more of it to be quite useful and effective.

I initially got into it because I was impressed by the focus on pulling across for the TS Fh shots, but later own was even more impressed on how it facilitated control and feel on my slices and volleys (which i didn't feel I needed any help with, as they were my strong points relative to other players). Next thing I knew, I had a pretty good drop shot, which was something i had practically given up on and decided i didn't need really.

Is it possible to build a perfect system? Is that expected? I was just very happy with an excellent system, but over time I find that even the areas that I questioned initially turned out to be correct so far. I'm glad to admit that this hitting at the bottom of the racket is something I don't have a handle on yet, but I'm not betting against Oscar when it comes to tennis strokes. His record on issues looks pretty good to me, but by all means; pick and choose what you like! and it might be a good idea to keep an open mind on the rest.

So to be clear, you now believe that hitting the ball with the bottom of the racket (not towards the throat) will increase spin and should be taught? That you should literally "deflect it with the lower part of the strings" ? That advanced players already do this? A nice, straightforward answer?
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
So to be clear, you now believe that hitting the ball with the bottom of the racket (not towards the throat) will increase spin and should be taught? That you should literally "deflect it with the lower part of the strings" ? That advanced players already do this? A nice, straightforward answer?

This was not clear enough for you?....
Quote from me.
I'm glad to admit that this hitting at the bottom of the racket is something I don't have a handle on yet, but I'm not betting against Oscar when it comes to tennis strokes.

-looking back, I think "freely admit" would have been better wording.
 

JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
This may sound simple but how do we conclude that the ball has been hit there without looking at high speed video? For example if you were teaching a young player, how would you know this to occur?
 

TenniseaWilliams

Professional
This may sound simple but how do we conclude that the ball has been hit there without looking at high speed video? For example if you were teaching a young player, how would you know this to occur?

The racquet wobble? The shank sound? The cries of frustration? Strings broken at the edges of the frame?
 

JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
So I just looked at 39 Guga forehands in high speed video, from live pro match play that we filmed. Where is he actually hitting the ball?

12 of 39 forehands were hit on the center line of the string bed:

11 on the center line and in the center of the racket
1 on the center line but out closer to the tip of the racket

16 of 39 forehands were hit above the center line of the string bed:

11 above the center line but in the center of the frame
5 above the center line but out closer to the tip

11 of 39 forehands were hit below the center line:

4 below the center line but still in the center of the frame
6 below the center line but out closer to the tip
1 below the center line but closer to the handle

Anyone want to interpret that data for me?
 

gzhpcu

Professional
Could the advice to hit below the center of the racket just be an image to help achieve a loose grip and brushing up on the ball, even if one doesn't actually do it?
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Anyone want to interpret that data for me?

Possibilities-

first you assume high speed data was not looked at, so who knows what else was assumed and so little was addressed related to situation.
sounds like 23 of the Fhs were bottom half, which is center and below.
Were the Fhs even topspin (not stated) that you looked at?
Was he in a position to expect control of contact?
Where they heavy topspin shots or possibly others, like taken on the rise, or buggy whips?
etc....
 
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Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
I'll be your test case.

I'm about to go practice. I'll do some hitting off the wall and drop feeding. I will pay careful attention to whether I am or am not hitting on the lower part of the stringbed when I hit topspin FHs and BHs, and I will make a sustained effort to do it. I also have some foam balls -- I might use those if they are helpful.

I don't have super-slo-mo to help me, but I guess an MTM student wouldn't have that either. I'll let you know how it goes . . .
 

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
This may sound simple but how do we conclude that the ball has been hit there without looking at high speed video? For example if you were teaching a young player, how would you know this to occur?


If you are as gifted as Oscar, anything is possible. :)
 

HunterST

Hall of Fame
I don't mean any disrespect towards Wegner or his followers and this assessment could be wrong, but....

It seems to me that there is a lot of over-analysis in this system. It really seems to me that the videos of pros hitting below the sweet spot are just incidental. They're aiming for the sweet spot, but were a little off. Not EVERY aspect of the stroke that we see on high speed video is something that is adding to the pro's strokes and it's not something they're focusing on.

I'm a believer in what many teaching pros such as Will of FYB and Ian of essentialtennis promote, and that is that the things that determine a stroke effectiveness are the big, fundamental aspects. Asepcts of the strokes such as weight transfer, body rotation, strong follow-through, etc. Focusing on these minute and extremely specific details can hurt a player. I mean how many people are really talented enough to hit the EXACT spot of the string-bed that they want? In my opinion, the videos just show that even Federer doesn't always hit in the sweetspot like he's trying to.
 
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