WORLD NO. 1 (by year)

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Dan, Now it's time for you to stop writing lies! The key point between krosero and BobbyOne on one side and Limpinhitter, you and another poster was a two-folded question (It's a shame that I must explain it to you again): Was the long tournament tour (17 events) the deciding parameter and criterion for determining the No.1 and was Rosewall the No.1 pro in 1964? Of course these two questions are properly only one question. As told the issue of a possible label for the tour such as "World Championship Tour" is not the key point. It's just a secondary matter because the contemporary players, experts and journalists agreed that the tour was the all-determining affair of the pros. We don't know if the tour was labelled in any way. It could be.

Of course you are free to believe krosero's and my arguments and reports or to not believe them and to ignore the facts. But I hope you will not torture me further in case you still ignore the truth at this matter.
No, Krosero has not supported your claim that this tour was everything in determing the number one player, and the issue of a formal declaration is a major issue...what was the prize for winning this tour? A handshake? Prize money? A title? Nothing?
These are central questions associated with a formally designated tour.
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
krosero, I agree with most you write but cannot agree regarding POY. It's just your own last paragraph which explains that the tournament tour was unique in history (till then), especially as it did not have a rivalry tour as a second parameter for determining the rankings. As you earlier wrote, the case in 1959 was different as there were two circuits in a rivalry to each other. In that sense the 1964 tournament tour was MORE than a classic World Series of the Gonzalez era. Therefore I cannot understand your argumentation here.

You ask what else did decide who was number one, and we (at least you and me) know: there was no other deciding criterion. Otherwise Rosewall could never have been called the NO.1 for 1964 as he actually has been called so often in 1964 and 1965. I of course refer to your own opinions.

You are right that even a declared World Championship Tour is not necessarily the deciding measure for the year's ranking.

But I cannot agree regarding Laver a Co.-No.1 because our whole discussion with Limpinhitter & Co. was about the contemporary determination of the No.1 player and the following players. The points apart from the big tour, such as majors won, hth, are important for a retrospective valuation of the 1964 players but not relevant for our "hot" discussion. The latter went virtually only about "What meant that tour?" and "Was Rosewall or Laver the No.1 in the view of the contemporaries". Sorry but I must point to the fact again that it was probably me who doubted the old ranking from 1964 and about 1964 and who plead for a tied No.1 because Laver has several important points that can match (in a whole) Rosewall's circuit's win.

The question was: How did the people in 1964 rank the players? Not if the contemporary judgement was justified or not.

It's clear for me (and I think also for you) that, when the proper tour was over, all eight participants (plus the experts and the media) agreed and knew that Ken Rosewall is the king of 1964. which also meant he was acknowledged as POY (even though he might not have gotten a trophy with the letetrs P.O.Y. engraved. In 1964 Rosewall was the POY. Today serious experts say that thre were two POY in 1964. Both claims are right. I don't see any problem here.

The modern judging, after studying all available information, is a different matter. The people of 1964 would probably say: Your additional information, modern guys, is not relevant for us as we had our own (maybe a bit unfair) system to determining the final places of the players.

Thanks for correcting Dan.

Yes, there would be many questions about that ominous player (I guess Olmedo or Ayala), but I fear we will not get aby additional answers.

Your key sentence seems to be: "It's the real significance of a tour, not a term that is important" (I 'm quoting along the sense of your words). That is deciding in our discussion.
What DID Rosewall get for winning this tour? A cup? A letter of commendation? Nothing?
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
Laver's book came out in 2013, and by then there had been a long-running debate about 1964 based on Andrew's documentation of Laver's and Rosewall's win/loss records for the year. His stats were published to Wikipedia, along with many of his other findings such as Laver's total of 200 tournament titles. That information has been incorporated into new books, such as the new edition of The Education of a Tennis Player. I think, in that context, Laver's statement in his 2013 autobiography may not be based on official records such as rankings points from 1964 -- records which after all this time are probably lost -- but on Andrew's new stats. Laver, or his co-author, could well mean that he was the top-ranked pro at the end of '64 in the sense that he had the best stats and the best overall record, based on the new and widely available information provided by Andrew. That's how much of an impact Andrew's work has had (and rightly so); and I think it's more likely that a statement made today would be based on the currently available stats, rather than on old statistics kept by the pros in '64 which are probably lost. I know both Bobby and Bud Collins have asked Butch Buchholz for the exact numbers of the '64 ranking points, and Buchholz told Bud that he could not remember them; obviously he didn't have them on hand anymore, or know where to find them.

Andrew, you might say, is the closest analogy in tennis to your baseball statistician friend :)

Having said that, when we refer to Andrew's new stats, we should be clear that they were new to us, when he provided them -- but there is no reason to think that Kramer, Rosewall and Buchholz did not know, at the time, everything that happened on the tour. If there was money involved on a tour, or a single stand, or a tournament, surely Rosewall as treasurer had the records. Kramer put together the tournaments of the US circuit in '64 and I know he also traveled to Europe that year for the tournaments there. Buchholz seems to have participated in virtually everything on the pro circuit (exaggerating not by much) in '64; he accompanied Laver on that last trek through the Middle East and France in November, before composing his article for World Tennis. Possibly no one was in a better position than he was, to give an overview of the main '64 tour and to know what all the players did in '64, and who was ranked in what spot, etc.

That information was surely known and recorded in '64, so I cannot agree that we necessarily know better what the situation was. We do know the situation better than McCauley knew it when he wrote his great book in 2000 -- thanks to Andrew's work -- but that's because the records had long since been forgotten or lost.

Buchholz was a regular columnist for World Tennis, so when he wrote his article summarizing the tour, he was not some one-time guest columnist who had no other contact with the magazine. If they wanted to know something about the pro scene and its tour, it would have been easy for them to ask him. So the fact that World Tennis, in its April 1965 issue, said that Laver was still challenging Rosewall for the number one spot and might soon get it, is quite significant, and cannot be dismissed as some random newspaper making some mistaken assumption. I cannot see how the preeminent American tennis magazine would not know who stood atop the rankings in April 1965, or at any time -- or why they would make a careless and mistaken assumption about who the top pro was. They would have been corrected by Buchholz, Laver, or someone else; often when they did make errors, readers pointed them out, in letters to the editors, published in the magazine.

Bobby mentioned in a post above, as well, that to his knowledge no letter was published in World Tennis to the effect that Buchholz was wrong in naming Rosewall as the unquestioned pro champ for '64. I've had a look myself and found no such correction/objection in the first few months of '65.

In any case, I have to disagree with your assertion that Joe McCauley made a mistake in his book, in your post from a few days ago when you said you'd contacted one of the '64 tour players. McCauley, as far as I can see, faithfully followed the documentation of the time period: Rosewall was ranked #1 above Laver at the end of '64 (as stated twice by World Tennis, once by Buchholz; and by numerous newspapers), and Laver overtook him in '65.

If you mean that McCauley incorrectly called the '64 pro circuit a championship tour, well I don't recall him doing that; I don't have the book on me but I recall him saying only that the pros used a points system for their tournaments and that Rosewall ended up at the top of it by years-end.

Based on the data that I'm aware of, it is clear that Laver was the #1 player for 1964. Laver leads Rosewall in every material respect. Exactly when Laver overtook Rosewall for the #1 position in 1964 would require an analysis of the full win/loss records and, in particular, the dates that they occurred which I don't have, and an assumption about whether the ranking should be based on the calendar year statistics or a rolling 52 week record. However, as of now, I have seen no reasonable basis to conclude anything other than that Laver was #1 and Rosewall was, at best, #2.
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Based on the data that I'm aware of, it is clear that Laver was the #1 player for 1964. Laver leads Rosewall in every material respect. Exactly when Laver overtook Rosewall for the #1 position in 1964 would require an analysis of the full win/loss records and, in particular, the dates that they occurred which I don't have, and an assumption about whether the ranking should be based on the calendar year statistics or a rolling 52 week record. However, as of now, I have seen no reasonable basis to conclude anything other than that Laver was #1 and Rosewall was, at best, #2.
Do we have the final prize money totals for the top pros in 1964?
Really, this might be the most significant final determinant for the number one that year, pro tennis that year was about money.

It was different in 1959, when the pros played in major venues which carried tremendous prestige apart from money.
In 1964, the pros were no longer playing in major venues.
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
Do we have the final prize money totals for the top pros in 1964?
Really, this might be the most significant final determinant for the number one that year, pro tennis that year was about money.

It was different in 1959, when the pros played in major venues which carried tremendous prestige apart from money.
In 1964, the pros were no longer playing in major venues.

Dan, what is the purpose of this thread? As I see it, it is to re-examine the formerly considered #1 players, year by year, based on criteria and hindsight that may not have been previously available. Prize money is just one of the criteria that can be looked at. But, since there was no official ranking system, I don't see how any one criteria, or any one event or tour, can be considered conclusive.

However, what would be most interesting to me would be an attempt to apply the current point system (which I consider to be the best, most reasonable, most objective and equitable ranking effort to date), to years past, similar to what I what I did for 1970 between Laver, Newcombe and Rosewall.
 
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pc1

G.O.A.T.
Do we have the final prize money totals for the top pros in 1964?
Really, this might be the most significant final determinant for the number one that year, pro tennis that year was about money.

It was different in 1959, when the pros played in major venues which carried tremendous prestige apart from money.
In 1964, the pros were no longer playing in major venues.
Is it really about the money Dan or is it about the accomplishments? Laver was the leading money winner by a huge margin in 1971 with $292,717 but I'm not sure if his tournament record was enough. He won possibly the toughest tournament of all time in the 1971 Tennis Champions Classic and the Italian Open among his titles. Newcombe won a little over $100K but won Wimbledon and four other tournaments. Stan Smith won six tournaments plus the US Open.

In retrospect I would probably think Laver's record may have been the best if you include the Tennis Champions Classic and Italian but they didn't judge it that way in those days. Probably not the smartest thing on their part. However if you judge by monetary earning alone, Laver was NOT almost three times better than Newcombe.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Not quite...actually, the 1959 tournament series had more...a first prize of substantial amount...what was the "prize" for winning this 1964 tournament series? Apparently nothing, no formal declaration of world championship, no special prize money for winning the series.
The 1959 format was more of an accomplished arrangement, with a formal designation of world championship and a big prize for winning.

Dan, And yet the winner of the 1959 tour was NOT automatically the clear POY! There were two tours. In 1964 there only was one tour.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
No, Krosero has not supported your claim that this tour was everything in determing the number one player, and the issue of a formal declaration is a major issue...what was the prize for winning this tour? A handshake? Prize money? A title? Nothing?
These are central questions associated with a formally designated tour.

Dan, krosero has brought countless quotes of magazines and newspapers that show Rosewall was the acknowledged No.1 for 1964. Read his many posts!
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
What DID Rosewall get for winning this tour? A cup? A letter of commendation? Nothing?

Dan, We all don't know if he got money for winning the tour. But we all at least know that he won the certainty of being the NO.1. Not too bad for a player, I would say...
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Based on the data that I'm aware of, it is clear that Laver was the #1 player for 1964. Laver leads Rosewall in every material respect. Exactly when Laver overtook Rosewall for the #1 position in 1964 would require an analysis of the full win/loss records and, in particular, the dates that they occurred which I don't have, and an assumption about whether the ranking should be based on the calendar year statistics or a rolling 52 week record. However, as of now, I have seen no reasonable basis to conclude anything other than that Laver was #1 and Rosewall was, at best, #2.

Limpin, Firstly, Rosewall at best, was only No.4 in 1964. Laver, Pancho and Ayala finished above him.

To be serious: It's totally irrelevant what You are thinking about the rankings in 1964. Relevant were only the players, the experts and the journalists who judged at that time.

Yu are right that Laver edged out Rosewall in several points but you can't ignore that Rosewall won the tour which was modelled for determining the No.1 player. Thus: there were two No.1 players that year, as also were in 1970 (that year possible even three, including Newcombe).

Have you already reflected about when you will apologize and correct you wrong claims? Go ahead! Thruth does not hurt!!
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Do we have the final prize money totals for the top pros in 1964?
Really, this might be the most significant final determinant for the number one that year, pro tennis that year was about money.

It was different in 1959, when the pros played in major venues which carried tremendous prestige apart from money.
In 1964, the pros were no longer playing in major venues.

Dan, We don't know the exact prize money list. But we know (thanks to krosero) that Rosewall was the No.1 prize money earner in 1964. Convincing for you??
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Dan, what is the purpose of this thread? As I see it, it is to re-examine the formerly considered #1 players, year by year, based on criteria and hindsight that may not have been previously available. Prize money is just one of the criteria that can be looked at. But, since there was no official ranking system, I don't see how any one criteria, or any one event or tour, can be considered conclusive.

However, what would be most interesting to me would be an attempt to apply the current point system (which I consider to be the best, most reasonable, most objective and equitable ranking effort to date), to years past, similar to what I what I did for 1970 between Laver, Newcombe and Rosewall.

Limpinhitter, You err again (probably for the 87th time...): There yet was an official ranking system, see Joe McCauley's book, page 235.

Get serious and withdraw your mean lie. As long as you don't you will be considered in this forum one of the worst liars...
 

pc1

G.O.A.T.
Limpinhitter, You err again (probably for the 87th time...): There yet was an official ranking system, see Joe McCauley's book, page 235.

Get serious and withdraw your mean lie. As long as you don't you will be considered in this forum one of the worst liars...
The ranking system was based on the assumption that was incorrect that the 1964 130 Day Tour was for the World Championship. It was incorrect therefore Joe's ranking information was incorrect. Joe's information about the Pro Rankings was just a statement of the final standings of the 1964 130 Day Pro Tour. This is what Joe thought was official. Key word there was thought.

I think if Joe received this information that the 1964 130 Day Tour was not for the World Championship, he would have changed it in his book. In fact I have almost no doubt about that.
 

krosero

Legend
The ranking system was based on the assumption that was incorrect that the 1964 130 Day Tour was for the World Championship. It was incorrect therefore Joe's ranking information was incorrect. Joe's information about the Pro Rankings was just a statement of the final standings of the 1964 130 Day Pro Tour. This is what Joe thought was official. Key word there was thought.

I think if Joe received this information that the 1964 130 Day Tour was not for the World Championship, he would have changed it in his book. In fact I have almost no doubt about that.
PC1, McCauley reproduced his rankings directly from the Buchholz article, but there was also the report from Nice, France, which I've posted a number of times, which had Rosewall ranked ahead of Laver officially at year-end:

Laver Takes Second in Pro Net Rankings

NICE, France--UPI--Rod Laver of Australia finished in second place in the 1964 world professional tennis rankings when he beat Spain's Andres Gimeno 6-4, 6-3, in the final of the Nice Professional Tennis Tourney last night.

Ken Rosewall finished the season in first place ahead of Laver and Gimeno is officially ranked third.​

That ranking of Rosewall, in turn, is supported by numerous articles in early '65 (as early as January and as late as May), stating that Rosewall was still ahead of Laver (one of these was a piece in World Tennis itself). Then there's the New York Times report from July 1965 stating that Rosewall had been number one "since 1961 until Laver went ahead of him this year."

None of these reports, from the Nice report at the end of '64 all the way through the newspaper reports in May 1965, depend on any assumption about the 130 day tour being a championship tour: they all simply reported what the pro rankings were. We don't know the exact number of points earned by each player toward his ranking (those numbers appear to be lost), but we know the ranking order.

(By the way if these reports in WT and the media did depend on an assumption that the 130 Day tour rankings were official rankings for the entire year, that would be really interesting because it would mean that the people of the time period, including tennis-knowledgeable folks at World Tennis, treated the 130 Day tour as if its rankings determined the overall #1 player for the year; in other words they'd be treating the 130 day tour like a championship tour.)

I've found the exact rankings, by the way, at year-end 1963, as given by the pro body itself (International Professional Tennis Players Association), along with exact figures of prize money won in '63. I'll post that article a little later.
 
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Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Dan, And yet the winner of the 1959 tour was NOT automatically the clear POY! There were two tours. In 1964 there only was one tour.
The winner in 1959 was officially designated the world champion...that is why I have been pressing you to show evidence that something similar happened in 1964.
In the 1964 tour was there any award for winning the tour, a plaque or cup, a major money prize, even an award ceremony? Apparently not.
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Dan, krosero has brought countless quotes of magazines and newspapers that show Rosewall was the acknowledged No.1 for 1964. Read his many posts!
You are not answering my question, just another sidestep...what was the prize for winning the 1964 tour?
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Dan, We don't know the exact prize money list. But we know (thanks to krosero) that Rosewall was the No.1 prize money earner in 1964. Convincing for you??
What was the prize for winning the tour? This is an important issue, otherwise, if there was no reward for winning, the tour becomes an irrelevancy.
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
PC1, McCauley reproduced his rankings directly from the Buchholz article, but there was also the report from Nice, France, which I've posted a number of times, which had Rosewall ranked ahead of Laver officially at year-end:

Laver Takes Second in Pro Net Rankings

NICE, France--UPI--Rod Laver of Australia finished in second place in the 1964 world professional tennis rankings when he beat Spain's Andres Gimeno 6-4, 6-3, in the final of the Nice Professional Tennis Tourney last night.

Ken Rosewall finished the season in first place ahead of Laver and Gimeno is officially ranked third.​

That ranking of Rosewall, in turn, is supported by numerous articles in early '65 (as early as January and as late as May), stating that Rosewall was still ahead of Laver (one of these was a piece in World Tennis itself). Then there's the New York Times report from July 1965 stating that Rosewall had been number one "since 1961 until Laver went ahead of him this year."

None of these reports, from the Nice report at the end of '64 all the way through the newspaper reports in May 1965, depend on any assumption about the 130 day tour being a championship tour: they all simply reported what the pro rankings were. We don't know the exact number of points earned by each player toward his ranking (those numbers appear to be lost), but we know the ranking order.

(By the way if these reports in WT and the media did depend on an assumption that the 130 Day tour rankings were official rankings for the entire year, that would be really interesting because it would mean that the people of the time period, including tennis-knowledgeable folks at World Tennis, treated the 130 Day tour as if its rankings determined the overall #1 player for the year; in other words they'd be treating the 130 day tour like a championship tour.)

I've found the exact rankings, by the way, at year-end 1963, as given by the pro body itself (International Professional Tennis Players Association), along with exact figures of prize money won in '63. I'll post that article a little later.
Krosero, the figures are apparently available for 1963, when Trabert was the business manager...Trabert retired at the end of 1963, and then we have what looks like chaos for the 1964 records and tour statistics.
What evidence do we have of an award ceremony at Nice for the 1964 tour, what prize was awarded to Rosewall?
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Dan, We don't know the exact prize money list. But we know (thanks to krosero) that Rosewall was the No.1 prize money earner in 1964. Convincing for you??
We need to know the overall prize money for the year, and how much was given for winning the 1964 tour.
We know exactly how much the winner received for winning the 1959 tour, a huge bonus prize of about $200,000 in today's dollars.
 

krosero

Legend
So this was the United Press report giving out the '63 rankings (Jan. 7, 1964):

Globetrotting Rosewall Rules Pro Net World

SYDNEY—UPI—The International Professional Tennis Players Association has voted Australia’s Ken Rosewall world professional player of 1963.

The 27 year old Rosewall won 47 of the 62 matches he contested during the year in the United States and Canada in addition to winning major professional championships in Paris and London during his European tour.

The association also announced that Australia’s Rod Laver, who turned professional at the conclusion of the 1962 Davis Cup challenge round against Mexico, is the top money winner among touring professionals with $60,000.

Rosewall was second on the list with $45,000 from eight months of touring, two months less than Laver.

Earl Buchholz of St. Louis, Mo., won $30,000 in nine months touring; Andres Gimeno of Barcelona, Spain, $25,000 in eight months, and Australia’s Lew Hoad, $20,000 from seven months.

The association said the 14 touring pros grossed $350,000 during last year’s tour which took in the United States, Canada, Europe, New Zealand, South Africa and Japan. After expenses the players divided approximately $250,000 among them.​

The '63 rankings were mentioned again in this press report on May 12, 1964, previewing the College Park tournament, which is usually thought of as the opening tournament of the "130 Day Tour":

Ken Rosewall, Rod Laver, Andres Gimeno and Earl Buchholz, ranked in that order among the world’s professional tennis players for 1963, were seeded in that sequence for the Indoor Championship.​

Another reference to the '63 rankings in this report from April 3, 1964:

Professional stars from five nations will compete in a $10,000 tennis tournament here June 9-14, but the promoters have yet to line up a suitable site….

Ken Rosewall of Australia, recognized as the No. 1 pro, will head a field of 12 players. Earl (Butch) Buchholz Jr. will be the St. Louis hope.

Rod Laver, who finished second to Rosewall in each of the two 1963 tours, will be another of five Australians entered….

Buchholz finished third to Rosewall and Laver on one of last year’s tours and fourth on the other, in which Gimeno was third.​
 

pc1

G.O.A.T.
We need to know the overall prize money for the year, and how much was given for winning the 1964 tour.
We know exactly how much the winner received for winning the 1959 tour, a huge bonus prize of about $200,000 in today's dollars.
So this was the United Press report giving out the '63 rankings (Jan. 7, 1964):

Globetrotting Rosewall Rules Pro Net World

SYDNEY—UPI—The International Professional Tennis Players Association has voted Australia’s Ken Rosewall world professional player of 1963.

The 27 year old Rosewall won 47 of the 62 matches he contested during the year in the United States and Canada in addition to winning major professional championships in Paris and London during his European tour.

The association also announced that Australia’s Rod Laver, who turned professional at the conclusion of the 1962 Davis Cup challenge round against Mexico, is the top money winner among touring professionals with $60,000.

Rosewall was second on the list with $45,000 from eight months of touring, two months less than Laver.

Earl Buchholz of St. Louis, Mo., won $30,000 in nine months touring; Andres Gimeno of Barcelona, Spain, $25,000 in eight months, and Australia’s Lew Hoad, $20,000 from seven months.

The association said the 14 touring pros grossed $350,000 during last year’s tour which took in the United States, Canada, Europe, New Zealand, South Africa and Japan. After expenses the players divided approximately $250,000 among them.​

The '63 rankings were mentioned again in this press report on May 12, 1964, previewing the College Park tournament, which is usually thought of as the opening tournament of the "130 Day Tour":

Ken Rosewall, Rod Laver, Andres Gimeno and Earl Buchholz, ranked in that order among the world’s professional tennis players for 1963, were seeded in that sequence for the Indoor Championship.​

Another reference to the '63 rankings in this report from April 3, 1964:

Professional stars from five nations will compete in a $10,000 tennis tournament here June 9-14, but the promoters have yet to line up a suitable site….

Ken Rosewall of Australia, recognized as the No. 1 pro, will head a field of 12 players. Earl (Butch) Buchholz Jr. will be the St. Louis hope.

Rod Laver, who finished second to Rosewall in each of the two 1963 tours, will be another of five Australians entered….

Buchholz finished third to Rosewall and Laver on one of last year’s tours and fourth on the other, in which Gimeno was third.​
Dan,

If you look at the price money from 1963 it's clear Laver was the leading money winner but Rosewall is the clear number one player. Price money is a prestigious achievement in some sports like Golf but it's not always the end all. I recall Arnold Palmer and Jack Nicklaus once entered this tiny tiny golf tournament at the end of one year because they were both battling to be the leading money winner.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
PC1, McCauley reproduced his rankings directly from the Buchholz article, but there was also the report from Nice, France, which I've posted a number of times, which had Rosewall ranked ahead of Laver officially at year-end:

Laver Takes Second in Pro Net Rankings

NICE, France--UPI--Rod Laver of Australia finished in second place in the 1964 world professional tennis rankings when he beat Spain's Andres Gimeno 6-4, 6-3, in the final of the Nice Professional Tennis Tourney last night.

Ken Rosewall finished the season in first place ahead of Laver and Gimeno is officially ranked third.​

That ranking of Rosewall, in turn, is supported by numerous articles in early '65 (as early as January and as late as May), stating that Rosewall was still ahead of Laver (one of these was a piece in World Tennis itself). Then there's the New York Times report from July 1965 stating that Rosewall had been number one "since 1961 until Laver went ahead of him this year."

None of these reports, from the Nice report at the end of '64 all the way through the newspaper reports in May 1965, depend on any assumption about the 130 day tour being a championship tour: they all simply reported what the pro rankings were. We don't know the exact number of points earned by each player toward his ranking (those numbers appear to be lost), but we know the ranking order.

(By the way if these reports in WT and the media did depend on an assumption that the 130 Day tour rankings were official rankings for the entire year, that would be really interesting because it would mean that the people of the time period, including tennis-knowledgeable folks at World Tennis, treated the 130 Day tour as if its rankings determined the overall #1 player for the year; in other words they'd be treating the 130 day tour like a championship tour.)

I've found the exact rankings, by the way, at year-end 1963, as given by the pro body itself (International Professional Tennis Players Association), along with exact figures of prize money won in '63. I'll post that article a little later.

krosero, We don't know if the tour was labelled and how it was labelled. Deciding for all of us must be that the 17 tournament tour was at least AS IMPORTANT as a world championship tour would be because it was the ONLY tour and the only parameter to determining the ranking and final standings. And, as you earlier told, the tour even included the pro majors and all bigger events.

By the way, I'm rather sure that Rosewall finished with 78 points and Laver with 67 points (if my assumption is right that it was a 17 tournament tour).

My only problem is that the Nice report gives Gimeno as third whereas Buchholz/McCauley give Gonzalez as third and Gimeno as fourth, slightly behind Pancho.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
The winner in 1959 was officially designated the world champion...that is why I have been pressing you to show evidence that something similar happened in 1964.
In the 1964 tour was there any award for winning the tour, a plaque or cup, a major money prize, even an award ceremony? Apparently not.

Dan, Who was officially designated the world champion, Pancho or Lew??? There were two official world championship tours!!!
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Krosero, the figures are apparently available for 1963, when Trabert was the business manager...Trabert retired at the end of 1963, and then we have what looks like chaos for the 1964 records and tour statistics.
What evidence do we have of an award ceremony at Nice for the 1964 tour, what prize was awarded to Rosewall?

Dan, You will never learn to divide off key points from lesser points.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
So this was the United Press report giving out the '63 rankings (Jan. 7, 1964):

Globetrotting Rosewall Rules Pro Net World

SYDNEY—UPI—The International Professional Tennis Players Association has voted Australia’s Ken Rosewall world professional player of 1963.

The 27 year old Rosewall won 47 of the 62 matches he contested during the year in the United States and Canada in addition to winning major professional championships in Paris and London during his European tour.

The association also announced that Australia’s Rod Laver, who turned professional at the conclusion of the 1962 Davis Cup challenge round against Mexico, is the top money winner among touring professionals with $60,000.

Rosewall was second on the list with $45,000 from eight months of touring, two months less than Laver.

Earl Buchholz of St. Louis, Mo., won $30,000 in nine months touring; Andres Gimeno of Barcelona, Spain, $25,000 in eight months, and Australia’s Lew Hoad, $20,000 from seven months.

The association said the 14 touring pros grossed $350,000 during last year’s tour which took in the United States, Canada, Europe, New Zealand, South Africa and Japan. After expenses the players divided approximately $250,000 among them.​

The '63 rankings were mentioned again in this press report on May 12, 1964, previewing the College Park tournament, which is usually thought of as the opening tournament of the "130 Day Tour":

Ken Rosewall, Rod Laver, Andres Gimeno and Earl Buchholz, ranked in that order among the world’s professional tennis players for 1963, were seeded in that sequence for the Indoor Championship.​

Another reference to the '63 rankings in this report from April 3, 1964:

Professional stars from five nations will compete in a $10,000 tennis tournament here June 9-14, but the promoters have yet to line up a suitable site….

Ken Rosewall of Australia, recognized as the No. 1 pro, will head a field of 12 players. Earl (Butch) Buchholz Jr. will be the St. Louis hope.

Rod Laver, who finished second to Rosewall in each of the two 1963 tours, will be another of five Australians entered….

Buchholz finished third to Rosewall and Laver on one of last year’s tours and fourth on the other, in which Gimeno was third.​

krosero, Thanks for the 1963 and 1964 data. There is a mistake. Rosewall was not 27 in 1963. Actually he was 28/29.
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Dan,

If you look at the price money from 1963 it's clear Laver was the leading money winner but Rosewall is the clear number one player. Price money is a prestigious achievement in some sports like Golf but it's not always the end all. I recall Arnold Palmer and Jack Nicklaus once entered this tiny tiny golf tournament at the end of one year because they were both battling to be the leading money winner.
I wonder what effect Laver's rookie status made for the 1963 money list...Laver had a contract guarantee for money winnings...also Laver looked good against Rosewall in the big money Australian tour which began the year.
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
krosero, We don't know if the tour was labelled and how it was labelled. Deciding for all of us must be that the 17 tournament tour was at least AS IMPORTANT as a world championship tour would be because it was the ONLY tour and the only parameter to determining the ranking and final standings. And, as you earlier told, the tour even included the pro majors and all bigger events.

By the way, I'm rather sure that Rosewall finished with 78 points and Laver with 67 points (if my assumption is right that it was a 17 tournament tour).

My only problem is that the Nice report gives Gimeno as third whereas Buchholz/McCauley give Gonzalez as third and Gimeno as fourth, slightly behind Pancho.
What mention was there of an official world title at the Nice event, or an awards ceremony, or a money prize for winning the 1964 tour?
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
I wonder what effect Laver's rookie status made for the 1963 money list...Laver had a contract guarantee for money winnings...also Laver looked good against Rosewall in the big money Australian tour which began the year.

Dan, Of course Laver profited from gaining his guarantee sum.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
If there was no award or prize or title for winning the tour, the tour becomes an irrelevancy, nothing separate from the rest of the year.

Dan, Then you must call Butch Buchholz, Ken Rosewall, Joe McCauley, the journalists from World of Tennis annuals, the several journalists from World Tennis, from the Nice and Holland newspapers and so on, krosero and me "true village idiots"....
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Dan, Then you must call Butch Buchholz, Ken Rosewall, Joe McCauley, the journalists from World of Tennis annuals, the several journalists from World Tennis, from the Nice and Holland newspapers and so on, krosero and me "true village idiots"....
No, Bobby, I do not use that type of language, it is below my dignity.
Let us say that we have a difference of opinion. I see no evidence of an award or trophy or money prize for that 1964 tour.
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Dan, I'm sorry (and maybe not intelligent enough) but I don't understand your next funny statement...
We are discussing two different world championship tours, which were not simultaneous...so I see no problem with your question, one tour followed the other.
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
What was the prize for winning the tour? This is an important issue, otherwise, if there was no reward for winning, the tour becomes an irrelevancy.

In my view, the winner of that tour was just that, the winner of that tour. Not necessarily the #1 player of the entire pro circuit at the time, nor the #1 player for the the entire year of 1964.

Based on the actual data available to us: total matches won, match winning percentage, total events won, so called pro majors won, and the H2H record of 15-4 (which you have pointed out might actually be 18-5), all in favor of Laver over Rosewall, if the New York Times, World Tennis Magazine or any other so called expert declaimed that the winner of that tour was the #1 player for the entire year of 1964, then, in my view, that would be no different than similar so called experts declaiming that either Newcombe or Rosewall was the #1 player for 1970 when, as I have demonstrated in another thread, Laver dominated both of them, and had much more extensive achievements than they did, by far, in 1970.

Again, isn't the purpose of this thread to re-examine the rankings of the best players (which were all unofficial until 1970), based on currently available information and hindsight? Or, is this just an exercise in blindly accepting and re-asserting the obviously unsupported, unofficial opinions of so called experts?
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
No, Bobby, I do not use that type of language, it is below my dignity.
Let us say that we have a difference of opinion. I see no evidence of an award or trophy or money prize for that 1964 tour.

Dan, Okay you don't use insulting words. But in fact your ignorance of all those many reports about Rosewall No.1 in 1964, provided by Buchholz, Rosewall, krosero and others (including me) does de facto mean all of them must be village idiots. Thanks for this your estimation...
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
We are discussing two different world championship tours, which were not simultaneous...so I see no problem with your question, one tour followed the other.

Funny Dan, Both tours were played in ONE year and I asked you who was the world champion in 1959, Pancho and Lew, and you cannot answer this question!
 

urban

Legend
Now the head to head in 1964 for Laver-Rosewall remains 15-4. Joe McCauley gave a margin of 12-3. He wrote,p. 126: "However in head-to-head-conflicts there was no doubt, who the master was. The pair met 15 times and on 12 occasions Laver emerged the victor". Later Andrew Tas added 4 more matches on the New Zealand tour.
I had that discussion about 1964 (and other pro years as well) with Carlo Colussi and Jeffrey Neave around 2003 or so, even before Andrew Tas edited his numbers. I had thought that is was a very close and unclear affair, when some 20 years ago, i read an article in the 1965 (for 1964) Yearbook of the Encyclopedia Americana, where Allison Danzig ranked both Rosewall and Laver at the top of the pros.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
In my view, the winner of that tour was just that, the winner of that tour. Not necessarily the #1 player of the entire pro circuit at the time, nor the #1 player for the the entire year of 1964.

Based on the actual data available to us: total matches won, match winning percentage, total events won, so called pro majors won, and the H2H record of 15-4 (which you have pointed out might actually be 18-5), all in favor of Laver over Rosewall, if the New York Times, World Tennis Magazine or any other so called expert declaimed that the winner of that tour was the #1 player for the entire year of 1964, then, in my view, that would be no different than similar so called experts declaiming that either Newcombe or Rosewall was the #1 player for 1970 when, as I have demonstrated in another thread, Laver dominated both of them, and had much more extensive achievements than they did, by far, in 1970.

Again, isn't the purpose of this thread to re-examine the rankings of the best players (which were all unofficial until 1970), based on currently available information and hindsight? Or, is this just an exercise in blindly accepting and re-asserting the obviously unsupported, unofficial opinions of so called experts?

Hi Limpin, I now learn that all the experts of 1964 and 1965 were so-called experts while you are a true expert (maybe the only tennis expert at all). I'm glad to learn that from you.

You still don't realize that the "so-called" experts and players of 1964/65 and 1970 had different criteria than you have: They followed parameters of that time, for 1964 the big tournament tour (the only big tour of 1964) and the importance of the GS tournaments in 1970.

Just like Dan regarding 1964 you are convinced that Tingay, McCauley and Collins (!!!) were village idiots (one of your favourite terms in 2012, by tzhe way!!) because they ranked Laver No.3 and No.4 respectively! It's disgusting...

However, at least we can say that Tingay, Joe and Bud were not liars as you are..
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
In my view, the winner of that tour was just that, the winner of that tour. Not necessarily the #1 player of the entire pro circuit at the time, nor the #1 player for the the entire year of 1964.

Based on the actual data available to us: total matches won, match winning percentage, total events won, so called pro majors won, and the H2H record of 15-4 (which you have pointed out might actually be 18-5), all in favor of Laver over Rosewall, if the New York Times, World Tennis Magazine or any other so called expert declaimed that the winner of that tour was the #1 player for the entire year of 1964, then, in my view, that would be no different than similar so called experts declaiming that either Newcombe or Rosewall was the #1 player for 1970 when, as I have demonstrated in another thread, Laver dominated both of them, and had much more extensive achievements than they did, by far, in 1970.

Again, isn't the purpose of this thread to re-examine the rankings of the best players (which were all unofficial until 1970), based on currently available information and hindsight? Or, is this just an exercise in blindly accepting and re-asserting the obviously unsupported, unofficial opinions of so called experts?
We need to evaluate the importance of the championship tours, some were significant and gave an added importance to the events. The 1964 tour appears to be almost invisible.
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Dan, Okay you don't use insulting words. But in fact your ignorance of all those many reports about Rosewall No.1 in 1964, provided by Buchholz, Rosewall, krosero and others (including me) does de facto mean all of them must be village idiots. Thanks for this your estimation...
No, they are just giving their individual opinions about rankings, which they are entitled to do...I am entitled to disagree.
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Funny Dan, Both tours were played in ONE year and I asked you who was the world champion in 1959, Pancho and Lew, and you cannot answer this question!
There were two world championships, one followed the other...you must exercise your judgment and decide which player had the better year....ties do not count.
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
Now the head to head in 1964 for Laver-Rosewall remains 15-4. Joe McCauley gave a margin of 12-3. He wrote,p. 126: "However in head-to-head-conflicts there was no doubt, who the master was. The pair met 15 times and on 12 occasions Laver emerged the victor". Later Andrew Tas added 4 more matches on the New Zealand tour.
I had that discussion about 1964 (and other pro years as well) with Carlo Colussi and Jeffrey Neave around 2003 or so, even before Andrew Tas edited his numbers. I had thought that is was a very close and unclear affair, when some 20 years ago, i read an article in the 1965 (for 1964) Yearbook of the Encyclopedia Americana, where Allison Danzig ranked both Rosewall and Laver at the top of the pros.
I was using Tas as a source for the NZ tour, so if those matches are already in the total, then 15-4 is a better number.
 

pc1

G.O.A.T.
There were two world championships, one followed the other...you must exercise your judgment and decide which player had the better year....ties do not count.
It was really one World Championship Tour I believe in 1959. The other World Championship Tour I believe started on January 28th of 1960. Gonzalez won that over Rosewall, Segura and Olmedo fairly easily. The tour ended in May.
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
It was really one World Championship Tour I believe in 1959. The other World Championship Tour I believe started on January 28th of 1960. Gonzalez won that over Rosewall, Segura and Olmedo fairly easily. The tour ended in May.
There were two world championship tours in 1959, according to the media coverage...the tournament series was officially labelled a world championship by Kramer.
The 1959 tournament series ended on January 2, 1960, so from that date until May 1960, Hoad was officially the world champion.
 
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