How did you arrive at your NTRP rating?

H

heycal

Hall of Fame
This question is meant for people like me who have never played in any league or USTA programs, have never been evaluated by anyone, or otherwise never been assigned an NTRP rating:

If you think you know what your NTRP rating is, how did you arrive at that rating? For example, if you think you are a 4.0, what makes you think that? How do you know? I'm curious about how people came to rate themselves and what factors they used to estimate their rating in the absence of league or computer assisted ranking.

In my own case, I am confident I am about a 3.5, but I really don't know for sure. Maybe I'm actually a 4.0 -- or maybe I'm just a 2.5. So how did I reach the conclusion that I was a 3.5? Well, I based it on a combination of the following somewhat convoluted factors:

1) I sometimes play with a guy who played high school tennis and believes he is a 4.0, and has entered a tournament or two at that level in recent years. He always beats me, but I can take a few games off him and push him to deuce frequently. And I swear, I'm gonna get him yet...

2) I have a friend whose brother is a veteran USTA league player and plays at the 4.5 level. He estimates that his brother -- my friend -- is a 3.5. When I play my friend, we sometimes have some close contests, but I almost always win.

3) A tennis pro who teaches my girlfriend estimates she is a 3.5. When I play her against her, she can't really compete with me and has never taken a set off me. Now, it's my understanding that men and women are a half level apart -- meaning a male 3.5 would be competive with a female 4.0.Ergo, if my girlfriend and I had close contests and she sometimes beat me, I would conclude I was a male 3.0 playing even with a female 3.5. But since they are not close and I always win, I must be higher than a 3.0.

4) I was watching some league matches at a tennis club one night. The guys I saw playing seemed to be about the same level as me -- I wasn't positive, but it looked like I could beat some of them, but might lose to others. In any case, I could definitely stay on the court with any of them. And when I asked the person next to me what level these guys were, I was told I was watching a USTA men's 3.5 league. (I was secretly hoping he'd say "Those fellas? They are solid 5.0's, son, and I reckon you could beat any of 'em" or something like that.)

So that's how and why I label myelf a 3.5. I have also read the guidelines on how to rate yourself, of course, and while they are somewhat helpful, they can only go far. I could argue that I "flunk" some of the requirements of a 2.5 yet "pass" some of the 5.0's ones, so to me, the chart is just too subjective to be very accurate.

So, how about you guys? How did you end up with your self-rating?
 
goober

goober

Legend
It seems like you thought about it quite a bit. The only problems with your reasoning is there are too many estimates of other players abilities by other people and drawing conclusions based on how you do against these other players.

For example the guy who played high school tennis who "believes he is a 4.0", could actually be a 3.5 and the fact that he beats you regularly could mean you are lower. Likewise your girlfirend and other friend who is a brother of a veteran USTA league player don't have actual ratings so these estimates could be off and therefore your conclusions could be off.

I think you are making a good educated guess, but as the USTA NTRP guidebook clearly states :"There is no substitute for match results as a measure of playing ability ". So basically it is all conjecture until you play against "real rated " players in a tourney or leagues setting.
 
R

raiden031

Legend
I first pictured myself at male 3.5 because I had developed all of my strokes pretty good as far as technique. Unfortunately I had to downgrade to a 3.0 because I didn't have the consistency or strategy to win at the 3.5 level against players with legit ratings. Now I think both of those things have risen due to alot of practice the last two months. Also I find that strong 3.5 women are not even competitive against me anymore so I must be hitting that mark. I am looking to do some winter and spring USTA playing myself and I am not going to play at the 3.0 level because I would rather play more competitive tennis even if I am not performing well.
 
K

kevhen

Hall of Fame
3 years ago I lost only one 3.5 singles match and that was in a 5 state 3.5 sectional final to go to Nationals so I was then bumped up to 4.0 as the team we lost to in the finals had 8 guys also get bumped up to 4.0 (sandbaggers!)

I have 2 second place and 2 semifinal finishes in the larger USTA 4.0 summer tournaments around here over the last couple years. I play #1 singles and #1 doubles for my 4.0 club team and have a winning league record too. I am currently computer rated 4.0 and feel like I am getting very close to 4.5 as I can beat some 4.5s in doubles now.

I mostly lose to guys who have recently played #1 for their D3 colleges. I have beaten high school guys who played #2 (strong 4.0) and #4 (weak 4.0) for their state champ teams. I would say I am equivalent to an average D3 guy which is 4.0-4.5 level around here.


You do sound like a 3.5 from all you have said. Enter some 3.5 tournies and see how you do! How does your 4.0 buddy do in his tournaments? Young guys who self-rate usually overrate themselves. Older players and girls tend to underrate themselves.
 
varuscelli

varuscelli

Professional
heycal said:
I have also read the guidelines on how to rate yourself, of course, and while they are somewhat helpful, they can only go far. I could argue that I "flunk" some of the requirements of a 2.5 yet "pass" some of the 5.0's ones, so to me, the chart is just too subjective to be very accurate.
Click to expand...

I'm self rated, but based on having seen and played enough tennis over the years to have a pretty good feel for skill levels (I'm 49 years old and while I haven't played tennis all my life -- there have been significant lapses for me -- I started playing when i was 8 to 10 years old, played on my Jr. High and High School teams, and have played off and on since then. So while I'm not a highly rated player, I've seen a lot of tennis and see myself as a pretty fair judge of skills.)

I think the ratings chart is very helpful if you're not a person who is in a situation to establish your ratings within a tournament-based atmosphere. Combine the written guidelines with your overall playing experience (your feel for the game and how you compare to other players -- especially if you get a lot of court time and see a lot of other players of varying skills out on the courts), you can get a pretty good feel for where you should stand.

I rate myself as a 4.0. I have parts of my game that dip slightly into 3.5 and parts that are in the 4.5 level (if I go strictly by the self-rating guidelines). I average out my skills to 4.0 where most of my game seems to fall.

Personally, I think that unless you get involved in quite a bit of of tournament/match play, you won't likely get a lot of help there. Depending on where you play, sandbagging players can throw those results all askew unless you're a regular enough player for that kind of play to eventually average out. And that can vary a lot depending on where you play and what kinds of tournaments you're involved in and exactly who is playing in those tournaments.

In reality, I wonder what percentage of tennis players (and I mean all of them, not just a certain demographic group) actually play in tournaments or match play to the extent that they can get an official rating. My guess is that it's a relatively small percentage of all players out there and certainly not a majority. Thus, I think that self rating (especially for people who have been playing for a while, no matter what the level) becomes more commonly practical than any other method.

But that aside, to revisit my answer to your question: I self rate based on the written guidelines and on my general experience in comparing my game to the games of other players.
 
goober

goober

Legend
varuscelli said:
Personally, I think that unless you get involved in quite a bit of of tournament/match play, you won't likely get a lot of help there. Depending on where you play, sandbagging players can throw those results all askew unless you're a regular enough player for that kind of play to eventually average out. And that can vary a lot depending on where you play and what kinds of tournaments you're involved in and exactly who is playing in those tournaments.
Click to expand...

In my experience there is not that much sandbagging going on in tournaments. There is at most 1-2 guys that probably be playing up another level, but you also run into guys more commonly that playing at a level higher than they should be. You easily beat them and you can get an inflated opinion of your ability. Among the regular tournament players you don't get sandbagging because they will get bumped by the computer. Where you occasionally get problems is when a former college player who doesn't play tournies decides to enter a NTRP event and enters a level beneath his actual skill level. But that actually doesn't happen that often from what I have seen.

Even if you run into one of the sandbaggers in the first round, you should be able to do some damage in the consolations rounds which almost all tournaments have. You should be able to win the majority of your matches in the consolation rounds since you are facing the weaker opponents of that level.
 
varuscelli

varuscelli

Professional
goober said:
In my experience there is not that much sandbagging going on in tournaments. There is at most 1-2 guys that probably be playing up another level, but you also run into guys more commonly that playing at a level higher than they should be.
Click to expand...

That's not really been my experience where I live. It varies of course, but I've seen quite a bit of sandbagging in tournaments around here. It's true that there are people who play up, but that really presents no problem. It's the guys who play down who I see as creating more of a problem for lower-level players. Granted, I don't play all over the United States, so I don't see it from a national perspective, but it seems like from things I've read there are areas where sandbagging seems to present more of a regular problem than in other areas. (And there's all kinds of subtle and not-so-subtle sandbagging that goes on in league play, too, it seems.)

And, too, I think it sometimes varies with the tournament and often time the . . . "prestige" level of the tournament. One of the big ones in the Houston area is the Coca Cola open that takes place every year. One of the big problems seems to be that there are guys who are good players but who don't regularly play in tournaments. The Coca Cola open rolls around and the want to play in it but can self rate because they don't have enough tournament records to force them into a certain level. You get (for example) 4.5 players rating themselves as 3.5 and kicking butt. Because of that, much of the tournament, depending on the skill level observed, can be affected by it.

I dunno. Experiences seem to vary. And back to my other point on tournament play, I don't think the majority of players get involved in it enough to be able to use those results to get a true rating. Self rating seems to be more of the practial reality.
 
superstition

superstition

Hall of Fame
I entered a 4.0 tournament and won the first round 6-0 6-0, playing only at a level of about 70%. But, in the next round, I lost 0-6 0-6 against a player who won the tournament and who the players I know who have seen him play said didn't belong in the tournament. I could have won a few games, but I was irritated because I'd had a fight with my best friend, and I didn't want to prolong the inevitable loss. I'd played the guy before recreationally and knew that even if I played at 98%, I'd likely only win one set at best. Plus, we started the match in the rain, which pissed me off because I use gut. When I told the organizers, they didn't seem to care. I couldn't do my usual run everything down game because it was too slippery. Then, when we went indoors, I couldn't see the ball because of the bad lighting.

The rating system is only useful if tournament organizers keep higher ranked players out of the draw. It was a forgone conclusion that the guy would win the tournament and I had to meet him in the second round. There was some sort of scheduling trickery, too, because the opponent I was told I'd play in the first round, in person and over the phone, was not the one I ended up playing, even after I met the kid at the court the day I was told I was to play him.

One big problem I have with the rating system is my level of play depends a lot on a number of factors:

The condition of my lower back. If my injury flares up, it really hurts my game.

The condition of my elbow. Playing with pain is distracting.

The condition of my strings. I play much better with a freshly strung racquet, but I can't afford to get gut replaced often, especially since I don't have my own stringing machine.

How often I get to play. My level will drop a ton (consistency is there for normal groundstrokes, but winners, serve returns, and serves are not consistent) if I don't get to play matches regularly. Since I have a big flat first serve and flat groundstrokes, my timing has to be practically perfect. I use a 75 or 85 inch racquet. Not getting to play enough is a huge problem, because there just aren't enough players in my area who aren't snobs, people I can beat or hang with but who won't play with me because they're cliquish. I think I could become a 5.0 for sure with regular play and drills, perhaps higher if not for the injury.
 
varuscelli

varuscelli

Professional
drakulie said:
I'm a 3.5. How did I arrive at that? Kehven rated me.
Click to expand...

I guess we need to send Kehven on tour around the country to rate people. As long as he's consistent about it, I can see no real problem with going that route. :)
 
varuscelli

varuscelli

Professional
drakulie said:
well, all I could say is your tortoise gets a 6.5 rating! :)
Click to expand...

Is that just you talking or can I count that as official from kehven? ;)

It it's official, I'm taking him out on tour. Maybe we'll run into the Beach Tennis guys. :)
 
H

heycal

Hall of Fame
superstition said:
I entered a 4.0 tournament and won the first round 6-0 6-0, playing only at a level of about 70%. But, in the next round, I lost 0-6 0-6 against a player who won the tournament and who the players I know who have seen him play said didn't belong in the tournament. I could have won a few games, but I was irritated because I'd had a fight with my best friend, and I didn't want to prolong the inevitable loss. I'd played the guy before recreationally and knew that even if I played at 98%, I'd likely only win one set at best. Plus, we started the match in the rain, which pissed me off because I use gut. When I told the organizers, they didn't seem to care. I couldn't do my usual run everything down game because it was too slippery. Then, when we went indoors, I couldn't see the ball because of the bad lighting.

The rating system is only useful if tournament organizers keep higher ranked players out of the draw. It was a forgone conclusion that the guy would win the tournament and I had to meet him in the second round. There was some sort of scheduling trickery, too, because the opponent I was told I'd play in the first round, in person and over the phone, was not the one I ended up playing, even after I met the kid at the court the day I was told I was to play him.

One big problem I have with the rating system is my level of play depends a lot on a number of factors:

The condition of my lower back. If my injury flares up, it really hurts my game.

The condition of my elbow. Playing with pain is distracting.

The condition of my strings. I play much better with a freshly strung racquet, but I can't afford to get gut replaced often, especially since I don't have my own stringing machine.

How often I get to play. My level will drop a ton (consistency is there for normal groundstrokes, but winners, serve returns, and serves are not consistent) if I don't get to play matches regularly. Since I have a big flat first serve and flat groundstrokes, my timing has to be practically perfect. I use a 75 or 85 inch racquet. Not getting to play enough is a huge problem, because there just aren't enough players in my area who aren't snobs, people I can beat or hang with but who won't play with me because they're cliquish. I think I could become a 5.0 for sure with regular play and drills, perhaps higher if not for the injury.
Click to expand...

Any other factors you can blame for your losses?;)
 
H

heycal

Hall of Fame
kevhen said:
You do sound like a 3.5 from all you have said. Enter some 3.5 tournies and see how you do! How does your 4.0 buddy do in his tournaments? Young guys who self-rate usually overrate themselves. Older players and girls tend to underrate themselves.
Click to expand...

Looks like Kevhen has already rated me. You other poor guys will have to wait until he travels to your part of the country to get your rating from him...
 
drakulie

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
varuscelli said:
Is that just you talking or can I count that as official from kehven? ;)

It it's official, I'm taking him out on tour. Maybe we'll run into the Beach Tennis guys. :)
Click to expand...

Sorry, but Kehven will probably rate him 4.5. But you should still take him on tour and let him beat up on those Beach Tennis Guys, and while he is there let him pick up chicks!
 
goober

goober

Legend
Is there some thread I missed with Kevhen and rating people going on? I don't get all these references.
 
H

heycal

Hall of Fame
goober said:
Is there some thread I missed with Kevhen and rating people going on? I don't get all these references.
Click to expand...

Posts number 8 and 10 introduced the concept of "Kevhen as ratings guy".
 
drakulie

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
goober said:
Is there some thread I missed with Kevhen and rating people going on? I don't get all these references.
Click to expand...

A few weeks ago, after seeing my serve videos, he said I have a 3.5 serve.
 
varuscelli

varuscelli

Professional
drakulie said:
A few weeks ago, after seeing my serve videos, he said I have a 3.5 serve.
Click to expand...

Let's just say that kehven has a rather conservative rating system.

Deliberate sandbaggers love the kehven system, especially come tournament time. Others want to wring his neck. The tortoise is undecided.
 
A

AndrewD

Legend
I rate myself as a 4.0 because: after doing the ITN (International Tennis Number) on-court assessment (no self-rating here), I was given an ITN 4 rating which converts to a USTA 4.5. Since the testing I've had minor knee surgery and Im still not as mobile or fit as I was when I did the test. So, I figure I've most likely dropped a level which would make me a 4.0
 
goober

goober

Legend
drakulie said:
A few weeks ago, after seeing my serve videos, he said I have a 3.5 serve.
Click to expand...

Well kevhen posted his serve videos awhile back. His serve looked unconventional to say the least. Not that it was a bad serve and it is probably effective. I think that it helps that he is 6'4" too :D
 
Duzza

Duzza

Legend
AndrewD said:
I rate myself as a 4.0 because: after doing the ITN (International Tennis Number) on-court assessment (no self-rating here), I was given an ITN 4 rating which converts to a USTA 4.5. Since the testing I've had minor knee surgery and Im still not as mobile or fit as I was when I did the test. So, I figure I've most likely dropped a level which would make me a 4.0
Click to expand...
Where did you do the "on-court assessment"?
 
C

Caswell

Semi-Pro
Hadn't played since high school (10 years ago), so I followed the USTA's NTRP guide and self-rated at 3.0.

Played in a 3.0 USTA league in the spring, and didn't drop more than a couple of games (playing doubles with a guy in the same situation) until I got to regionals.

Played in one USTA 3.0 "tournament" with only one other 3.0 player that I easily beat. Went ahead and played 3.5 in the next two USTA tournaments and made it to the semis in both.

I figure my 3.0 self-rating will turn into a 3.5 computer rating at the end of the year. I get lots of complements on my strokes, but the footwork and shot placement is going to have to improve to get to 4.0.
 
C

Caswell

Semi-Pro
I live in Brevard county, in one of the beachside towns east of Melbourne.

I play in section 4 for USTA leagues, but we also have a Space Coast league that runs a great mixed doubles league for anyone over 19 years old (sadly their only mens' leagues are 55+).

The tournament play is all in Orlando. None of the clubs in the area run adult tournaments, but there's usually one a month in Orlando.
 
Duzza

Duzza

Legend
AndrewD said:
At the University of Queensland (we're required to do an ITN assessment before playing comp so there can't be any sandbagging).

Every state has assessors but here's a link so you can find the closest one to you.
http://www.oncourtassessment.com/get-assessed.php
Click to expand...
Great thanks. Wow a lot of coaches I know that have never advertised it :D. Do you reckon they would charge you something to do it? Or could I just go ask them for a rough idea?
 
M

maverick1

Semi-Pro
My kevhen rating was "weak 3.5".

I was rating myself a strong 3.5 because I have
- Beaten 3 guys who have had a 4.0 computer rating for more than a year.
- Made the finals of a 3.5 tournament(retired with cramps) after easily beating someone who was on the runner-up 3.5 team in the recent nationals.
- Played 3.0 leagues last summer and comforably won all my singles matches including beating a top 3.0 player 6-1 6-2
 
K

kevhen

Hall of Fame
Drakilie,
Dude chill out. I said your flat serve was at least 3.5 level based on like 1 or 2 of your first videos. After seeing your kick serve nad more videos, I would say you are 4.0 or 4.5. If you gave up some continuous game footage and it showed great consistency, great kick, groundstrokes to match then maybe you would be 4.5-5.0. I do rate conservatively since lots of guys just show their one best shot and often strokes due break down under the stress of a lengthy match so they look techniquely fine but aren't match tough.

Just go play some NTRP tournaments and beat some rated players. Sounds like you are ready for 4.5 so start there and stop bi+ching about how I say you are a 3.5 since I said you were at least 3.5. I never said you weren't 4.0 or 4.5 but said at least 3.5. Chill out, Dude! You also admitted to not getting great lift because of a foot injury and your left arm is up in the air on contact and your serve was just slightly over 100mph. You could be anywhere from 4.0 to 5.0 but you don't show any match or groundstroke footage.
 
drakulie

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
Kehven, relax---I was just having a little fun with you. I haven't played since my foot was injured, so I don't have any "match footage". But when I get some, I will post it just for you. Like my serve, I don't have anything to hide.

Peace Brother!
 
K

kevhen

Hall of Fame
ok, cool. Take it easy. Too cold to play tennis outdoors now which sucks but we do have some awesome new indoor courts. Bet you are still playing lots of outdoor tennis. Do you usually play on clay or hardcourt?
 
jackson vile

jackson vile

G.O.A.T.
maverick1 said:
My kevhen rating was "weak 3.5".

I was rating myself a strong 3.5 because I have
- Beaten 3 guys who have had a 4.0 computer rating for more than a year.
- Made the finals of a 3.5 tournament(retired with cramps) after easily beating someone who was on the runner-up 3.5 team in the recent nationals.
- Played 3.0 leagues last summer and comforably won all my singles matches including beating a top 3.0 player 6-1 6-2
Click to expand...


Don't sweat it, does it really matter? If you are good then you are good reguardless what people think, sounds like you have had a lot of success so why even bother?

You also have to understand that most people rate Cali style, that means you underate like crazy, I have see posts where 5.0 no joke 5.0 confirmed NTRP playing down 4.0!


So that is how it is you underate a whole entire level, I always underate as I prefer to say I am lower so I always improve and stay strong, if it came tournament time I would underate for the first to see for sure where I am at but next time I would adjust the rating properly.

My moto is "if you want to the best you can't have any excuses, and should be able to deal with anything that is throw at you."
 
H

heycal

Hall of Fame
jackson vile said:
My moto is "if you want to the best you can't have any excuses, and should be able to deal with anything that is throw at you."
Click to expand...

I think you need to work on your "moto" more than your game. It's a 2.5 motto at best, capable of being a 4.0 with some serious proofreading.
 
drakulie

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
kevhen said:
ok, cool. Take it easy. Too cold to play tennis outdoors now which sucks but we do have some awesome new indoor courts. Bet you are still playing lots of outdoor tennis. Do you usually play on clay or hardcourt?
Click to expand...

Hardcourt. Very little on clay.

By the way, the weather is amazing here. :)

I am going to try and play this weekend.
 
varuscelli

varuscelli

Professional
drakulie said:
Kehven, relax---I was just having a little fun with you.
Click to expand...

Hey, if it's any consolation, I knew you didn't mean anything by it. If it had really bothered you, I'm betting you wouldn't have ever brought it up. I thought you were just showing a good sense of humor about the "rating." :)

I was just playing with the idea, too.

But, um....kehven...drakulie did ask me if the Ruscelli Family had any hit men available this week or next. (Relax, though -- I told him he'd have to take a rain check until mid November at the earliest. We are soooo booked up it's not even funny...) :p

Weather Update: 62 degrees F and sunshine here. Tomorrow, I test the leg. (Even if for serves only.)
 
K

kevhen

Hall of Fame
At least it's 70 degrees and well lit indoors here! I saw some clay courts at Flamingo park when I was in Miami last year but didn't have a decent partner to hit with as the lady I was with is more into watching basketball than playing tennis. We went on a cruise so it was ok to go without tennis for a few days.
 
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