The definitive explanation of why the Federer Nadal head-to-head is bogus

Is head to head a bogus metric?

  • I didn't think h2h is bogus - but after this post I do

  • I thought h2h is bogus - this post merely confirms that

  • I didn't think h2h is bogus - and I still don't after this post

  • I thought h2h is bogus - but after this post I think it isn't


Results are only viewable after voting.
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KINGROGER

G.O.A.T.
But this is really just an excuse (no criticism intended here). Fed was #1 in the world and a dominating player in 2008. Rafa ripped his guts on at the FO, but Fed should have been able to re-calibrate and realize, "clay is his thing, grass is mine, so bring it on, Rafa." Instead Fed had the deer-in-the-headlights look throughout the entire Wimbledon 2008 final, even in the fifth set when he had all the momentum. And Fed was never the same on court against either Nadal or Djokovic after 2008, at least until 2017.

Roger was always the better player than either Djoker or Nadal but he allowed them both to inhabit his head in slam matches. There's just no excuse whatsoever for Roger Federer to have lost 2 straight Wimbledon finals to Djokovic. It's like if McEnroe had lost at Wimbledon to Lendl. It's just... cringe worthy. The mental part of the game was always Fed's achilles heel. Let's see if he can avenge some of those dreadful losses in slams with his new-found mental strength.
Why do you mention Djokovic? Fed destroyed him at USO 08, 09 should've won both 10/11 too. Also comfortably beat him at RG 11 and Wimbledon 12 past his prime.

Nadal yeah you have a point. He was mentally weak post 08 RG. Not vs Djokovic. That only came post Wimbledon 14.
 
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TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
This is not an academic journal, or a newspaper. It's an internet message board. You get what you pay for.

At least I can say, unlike 95% of posters, I acknowledge when I get it wrong. please see point about Nadal injuries, above.





In isolation, this is a terrible comment.

To his/her credit, @DRII, is the only dissenting poster who has made a serious attempt to respond to my analysis. If you lay out your disagreements I can respond, and we can have a debate. Otherwise you are the one who cannot be taken seriously.




Thanks. You are too.
Thats true. But i have a language problem that makes it a bit hard for me to go into depth of your arguments. If we could do this in norwegian/danish/swedish, italian or french it would be easier. You are obviously biased and I ment to take stats like this from that perspective is not to be taken 100% seriously, you cant expect that. It would be the same if medical company arguing against symptomts that is flawed for their product. Sometimes its maybe better to just accept things for what they are and respect what is and what these amazing athletes have done.
 

KINGROGER

G.O.A.T.
I think the Australian Open result alone shows that Nadal is a matchup issue for Federer. It appears that matchup finally changed with his new backhand. Nadal beating up on Federer's backhand is an old staple that Nadal hasn't even given up on through IW and Miami despite it backfiring a 2nd and 3rd time.:confused:

Sure Nadal has dumped out of draws later in the season plenty of times due to a host of wear and tear issues. Nadal having a good Fall really has never happened. 2015 might have been his best and he was at best in early comeback form then:
44/2015 F Basel I Hard Roger Federer Rafael Nadal 6-3 5-7 6-3 1.36 - 3.00

If we look earlier in the season:
12/2017 F Miami Masters Hard Roger Federer Rafael Nadal 6-3 6-4 1.80 - 2.10
10/2017 R16 Indian Wells Masters Hard Roger Federer Rafael Nadal 6-2 6-3 2.20 - 1.66
3/2017 F Australian Open Hard Roger Federer Rafael Nadal 6-4 3-6 6-1 3-6 6-3 2.10 - 1.73
3/2014 SF Australian Open Hard Rafael Nadal Roger Federer 7-6(4) 6-3 6-3 1.54 - 2.74
10/2013 QF Indian Wells Masters Hard Rafael Nadal Roger Federer 6-4 6-2 2.29 - 1.71
10/2012 SF Indian Wells Masters Hard Roger Federer Rafael Nadal 6-3 6-4 2.16 - 1.81
3/2012 SF Australian Open Hard Rafael Nadal Roger Federer 6-7(5) 6-2 7-6(5) 6-4 2.57 - 1.60
12/2011 SF Miami Masters Hard Rafael Nadal Roger Federer 6-3 6-2 1.70 - 2.26
4/2009 F Australian Open Hard Rafael Nadal Roger Federer 7-5 3-6 7-6(3) 3-6 6-2 2.35 - 1.69
26/2008 F Wimbledon Grass Rafael Nadal Roger Federer 6-4 6-4 6-7(5) 6-7(8) 9-7 2.00 - 1.75
26/2007 F Wimbledon Grass Roger Federer Rafael Nadal 7-6(7) 4-6 7-6(3) 2-6 6-2 1.18 - 4.70
26/2006 F Wimbledon Grass Roger Federer Rafael Nadal 6-0 7-6(5) 6-7(2) 6-3 1.20 - 4.20
9/2006 F Dubai Hard Rafael Nadal Roger Federer 2-6 6-4 6-4 3.65 - 1.35
12/2005 F Miami Masters Hard Roger Federer Rafael Nadal 2-6 6-7(4) 7-6(5) 6-3 6-1 1.13 - 7.04
13/2004 R32 Miami Masters Hard Rafael Nadal Roger Federer 6-3 6-3 5.25 - 1.18

If we look at earlier in the season on hard courts, healthy Nadal leads 8-4 before 2017 with only one straight set victory for Fed. It is very plain that Nadal was a huge matchup issue for Fed off clay. Federer before 2017 would never have had a good head to head with Nadal if Nadal was in health/form later in the year. The overall head to head doesn't look misleading at all. NADAL HAS OWNED FEDERER until 2017 Auz Open Final.:eek:
LMAO you must have missed those 06-07 and 10-11 utter beatdowns on the faster indoor YEC surfaces? Specifically 06-07 in particular on decoturf.

Any USO series meeting when Fed was in form (04-07, 09-10, 14, 15 Cincy) would have all been beat downs.
 

falstaff78

Hall of Fame
Thats true. But i have a language problem that makes it a bit hard for me to go into depth of your arguments. If we could do this in norwegian/danish/swedish, italian or french it would be easier. You are obviously biased and I ment to take stats like this from that perspective is not to be taken 100% seriously, you cant expect that. It would be the same if medical company arguing against symptomts that is flawed for their product. Sometimes its maybe better to just accept things for what they are and respect what is and what these amazing athletes have done.

a statistical argument can be evaluated on its own merits, independently whom it is written by.

if your language barrier is preventing you from following the arguments I have presented, that is completely understandable. but then your only remaining basis to reject the argument is my avatar. which is a bit harsh.

(side note: if english is your sixth best language, and this is how good it is, wow! that's impressive!)
 

TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
a statistical argument can be evaluated on its own merits, independently whom it is written by.

if your language barrier is preventing you from following the arguments I have presented, that is completely understandable. but then your only remaining basis to reject the argument is my avatar. which is a bit harsh.

(side note: if english is your sixth best language, and this is how good it is, wow! that's impressive!)
I can follow the arguments but its a lot of work to argue back if you know what I mean ;)
 

falstaff78

Hall of Fame
@falstaff78

You are probably aware of @Russeljones old thread regarding the topic.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...nd-instances-when-one-couldnt-make-it.515165/

Would be nice if someone took the time to update that thread:).

Your thread more or less confirms Russels analysis imo.

I was wondering though; if you take away clay, what are the stats for reaching the "date" first half of the season? You have those numbers?

Hey. From what I can gather the data in that thread are very similiar to the dataset I pulled together, from which my excel runs the numbers in the chart in the OP.

I will share it later. Along with the number you requested - it's super easy to calculate.
 

moonballs

Hall of Fame
Fantastic post.
But to be fair, an avid Fed fan that has his avatar of his hero is genuinly biased. These kind of stats should have been made by a non biased person. Op is making up excuses after excuse. I cant take it seriously but I respect the attempt. He is a nice poster overall.
Facts are facts. Excuses is one way people describe facts they don't like.
 

Starfury

Hall of Fame
You could've saved yourself a lot of work with a simple line of reasoning:

Federer lost to Nadal 23 times. Would Federer be a better player than Nadal if he had lost all 23 matches he played before their duels? After all, the H2H would be 14-0 in Federer's favor.
 

73west

Semi-Pro
As a general statement on the analysis draw:
If you take a single tournament, there is certainly no expectation that two highly seeded players will have equally difficult draws. All tennis fans love looking at the draw when it is revealed and saying this guy has an easy draw, that guy has a hard draw. But that difference is largely (*) random, and that randomness is unbiased. And the law of large numbers suggests that if your sample size is large enough, the variance caused by that kind of randomess should converge to 0. 151 is a very large sample. Just from a default statistical perspective, the assumption should be that this is not a factor, unless someone can prove from the sample that it is. That is just the nature of this kind of statistical analysis.

A highly subjective analysis is problematic, because
a) it is too subject to the bias of the analyst
b) it is too subject to circular logic: for example, was Muller a particularly difficult and dangerous opponent at Wimbledon? Or a lower seeded guy who pulled a surprising upset? Nadal critics may say the latter. Nadal fans may say the former, and then use his victory over Nadal as evidence of it.

(*) I say "largely" random because of course a (1) seed should expect an easier draw than a (5) seed. But since we are talking about two dominant players, often seeded (1) and (2) or at worst (1) and (3), this is not the major driver of the difference in draw difficulty.
 
D

Deleted member 743561

Guest
Fantastic post.
But to be fair, an avid Fed fan that has his avatar of his hero is genuinly biased. These kind of stats should have been made by a non biased person. Op is making up excuses after excuse. I cant take it seriously but I respect the attempt. He is a nice poster overall.
Well, well. Look who's here again! That certainly didn't take long. ;)

Welcome home.
 

Dutchman

Rookie
I'm quite sure that when Nadal buys Federer a nice turkey sandwich after practice they are not discussing this... Maybe we should start buying each other turkey sandwiches and stop this pointless discussion about who's better... Both are incredible tennis players, let's just enjoy the fact that they are still around after all these years :)
 

merlinpinpin

Hall of Fame
I'm quite sure that when Nadal buys Federer a nice turkey sandwich after practice they are not discussing this... Maybe we should start buying each other turkey sandwiches and stop this pointless discussion about who's better... Both are incredible tennis players, let's just enjoy the fact that they are still around after all these years :)

Turkey? You mean Nadal doesn't buy Federer GOAT sandwiches? Heresy! :eek:
 

falstaff78

Hall of Fame

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I was wondering though; if you take away clay, what are the stats for reaching the "date" first half of the season? You have those numbers?

HARD - 1st half
Fed 55% (24/44)
Nadal 41% (18/44)
 

Meles

Bionic Poster
LMAO you must have missed those 06-07 and 10-11 utter beatdowns on the faster indoor YEC surfaces? Specifically 06-07 in particular on decoturf.

Any USO series meeting when Fed was in form (04-07, 09-10, 14, 15 Cincy) would have all been beat downs.
Nadal won US Open in 2010 and 2013. I agree his hard court level isn't as high Fed's (2007 Nadal not even in hard court prime.) It's all academic since Nadal rarely has had it all together by the end of the tennis season. Now Fed has that backhand so we'll never know.;) Expecting him to beat Nadal pretty easily this year even if Rafa is making all the finals and playing great.:eek: If Rafa beats Fed on hard courts at end of this year, then maybe we see the matchup as an issue on all surfaces.:oops: Just have to wait and see how it rolls out, but hopefully both at their best the rest of the year.:p
 

DRII

G.O.A.T.
As a general statement on the analysis draw:
If you take a single tournament, there is certainly no expectation that two highly seeded players will have equally difficult draws. All tennis fans love looking at the draw when it is revealed and saying this guy has an easy draw, that guy has a hard draw. But that difference is largely (*) random, and that randomness is unbiased. And the law of large numbers suggests that if your sample size is large enough, the variance caused by that kind of randomess should converge to 0. 151 is a very large sample. Just from a default statistical perspective, the assumption should be that this is not a factor, unless someone can prove from the sample that it is. That is just the nature of this kind of statistical analysis.

A highly subjective analysis is problematic, because
a) it is too subject to the bias of the analyst
b) it is too subject to circular logic: for example, was Muller a particularly difficult and dangerous opponent at Wimbledon? Or a lower seeded guy who pulled a surprising upset? Nadal critics may say the latter. Nadal fans may say the former, and then use his victory over Nadal as evidence of it.

(*) I say "largely" random because of course a (1) seed should expect an easier draw than a (5) seed. But since we are talking about two dominant players, often seeded (1) and (2) or at worst (1) and (3), this is not the major driver of the difference in draw difficulty.
perhaps, but Nadal did not get to #2 until July 2005. how many times had they met before that? how 'disadvantaged' were Nadal's draws due to his lower ranking when he turned pro, finally became good enough to meet Federer at tournaments, all the while Federer was already at the top of the game.

I also disagree that 151 is a very large sample. that depends on the context.

also, this era (lets call it Federer's era) has shown that the top guys have separated themselves from the rest of the field to an extraordinarily large degree, more so than any other era in modern times. court homogenization and poly strings has added to this phenomena. so the 'field' argument becomes more and more suspect and the h2h among the top guys becomes even more conclusive than it would normally (especially when all of them were in at least good form).

I largely agree with @falstaff78 stat analysis, I just disagree with the ultimate conclusions drawn from it.
 

-NN-

G.O.A.T.
perhaps, but Nadal did not get to #2 until July 2005. how many times had they met before that? how 'disadvantaged' were Nadal's draws due to his lower ranking when he turned pro, finally became good enough to meet Federer at tournaments, all the while Federer was already at the top of the game.

I also disagree that 151 is a very large sample. that depends on the context.

also, this era (lets call it Federer's era) has shown that the top guys have separated themselves from the rest of the field to an extraordinarily large degree, more so than any other era in modern times. court homogenization and poly strings has added to this phenomena. so the 'field' argument becomes more and more suspect and the h2h among the top guys becomes even more conclusive than it would normally (especially when all of them were in at least good form).

I largely agree with @falstaff78 stat analysis, I just disagree with the ultimate conclusions drawn from it.

All of that is already accounted for in the records by those extraordinary players reaching the latter stages so often. Their impact and the impact of "the field" is what it is and needn't be skewed further one way or the other from what the record shows.
 

73west

Semi-Pro
perhaps, but Nadal did not get to #2 until July 2005. how many times had they met before that? how 'disadvantaged' were Nadal's draws due to his lower ranking when he turned pro, finally became good enough to meet Federer at tournaments, all the while Federer was already at the top of the game.

I also disagree that 151 is a very large sample. that depends on the context.

also, this era (lets call it Federer's era) has shown that the top guys have separated themselves from the rest of the field to an extraordinarily large degree, more so than any other era in modern times. court homogenization and poly strings has added to this phenomena. so the 'field' argument becomes more and more suspect and the h2h among the top guys becomes even more conclusive than it would normally (especially when all of them were in at least good form).

If 151 tournaments is not a large enough sample (and I'm not agreeing or disagreeing) than this entire exercise is pointless. Even the rankings are not useful, based on 15-20 tournaments a year. Even metrics like majors won are suspect (Borg won 11, McEnroe only won 7, but we're talking about samples of a fraction of the size of the 151 we're talking about here). Again, not disagreeing; I haven't done any analysis on the statistical significant of a 151 tournament sample. I'm only saying that when you analyze data on individual players in sport, you pretty much always are dealing with small sample sizes.

Just as a statistical note on your specific question:
Federer was already #1 the first time the two faced off.
Nadal reached #2 in the world before their 4th H2H matchup.

(One important note: I am using ranking as an approximation for seed, because that is what I have. I know it is not always the same, but it should be a good proxy)

If you consider the following seeds to be similar in terms of draw strength (that is, only subject to random variance, not the very intentional effect that the highest seeds get the easiest draws)
1 vs 2
3 vs 4
5-8
9-16

In the 151 tournaments they have both entered, they have had similar draws 67 times, Federer has had the easier draw 47 and Nadal 37. Given that, it's not surprising Federer has advanced further more often than Nadal (though I would point out that data that follows logically from Federer being ranked higher does at least marginally support the premise of the ranking).

However, and backing up the very point falstaff made in the OP, the chances they meet are
28% in tournaments where they are approximately equally seeded (19/67)
15% in tournaments where Federer is a significantly higher seed (7/47)
30% in tournaments where Nadal is a significantly higher seed (11/37)
Once again showing a statistical bias towards the H2H being disprortionately in tournaments where Nadal has an edge

Also, I'm not sure how the "field argument" becomes more suspect. That piece of data (how often a player beats everyone in the field to win a tournament) is still the single best piece of data on how successfull a player's career has been, and is the way that titles, points and rankings are calculated.
 
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DRII

G.O.A.T.
If 151 tournaments is not a large enough sample (and I'm not agreeing or disagreeing) than this entire exercise is pointless. Even the rankings are not useful, based on 15-20 tournaments a year. Even metrics like majors won are suspect (Borg won 11, McEnroe only won 7, but we're talking about samples of a fraction of the size of the 151 we're talking about here). Again, not disagreeing; I haven't done any analysis on the statistical significant of a 151 tournament sample. I'm only saying that when you analyze data on individual players in sport, you pretty much always are dealing with small sample sizes.

Just as a statistical note on your specific question:
Federer was already #1 the first time the two faced off.
Nadal reached #2 in the world before their 4th H2H matchup.

If you consider the following seeds to be similar in terms of draw strength (that is, only subject to random variance, not the very intentional effect that the highest seeds get the easiest draws)
1 vs 2
3 vs 4
5-8
9-16

In the 151 tournaments they have both entered, they have had similar draws 67 times, Federer has had the easier draw 47 and Nadal 37. Given that, it's not surprising Federer has advanced further more often than Nadal (though I would point out that data that follows logically from Federer being ranked higher does at least marginally support the premise of the ranking).

However, and backing up the very point falstaff made in the OP, the chances they meet are
28% in tournaments where they are approximately equally seeded (19/67)
15% in tournaments where Federer is a significantly higher seed (7/47)
30% in tournaments where Nadal is a significantly higher seed (11/37)
Once again showing a statistical bias towards the H2H being disprortionately in tournaments where Nadal has an edge

Also, I'm not sure how the "field argument" becomes more suspect. That piece of data (how often a player beats everyone in the field to win a tournament) is still the single best piece of data on how successfull a player's career has been, and is the way that titles, points and rankings are calculated.
interesting numbers, thanks for the breakdown...
 

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
I fear you and much of TTW are a bit biased for Mr. *********. Of course we'll never know because the new backhand is going to be a load for Nadal. I suspect we'll have a healthy Nadal on our hands in the Fall and we'll get a match or two. Fed will need that backhand because a much, much lesser Nadal took him to three sets in Basel in 2015.;) In any event I heavily favor Federer, but Nadal will be reasonably competitive the rest of 2017.

With any luck NextGen will take both of them down.:D
I heard that, Meles! ;)
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Fantastic post.
But to be fair, an avid Fed fan that has his avatar of his hero is genuinly biased. These kind of stats should have been made by a non biased person. Op is making up excuses after excuse. I cant take it seriously but I respect the attempt. He is a nice poster overall.
If it's a fantastic post, then it should have received MANY likes instead it getting only 1 from you.

The OP didn't make excuses but presented cold facts. His initial post received 47 likes. 47 > 1

falstaff78 post is fantastic !
No one care about DRII post except you.
 

TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
If it's a fantastic post, then it should have received MANY likes instead it getting only 1 from you.

The OP didn't make excuses but presented cold facts. His initial post received 47 likes. 47 > 1

falstaff78 post is fantastic !
No one care about DRII post except you.
???
Who cares about how many likes one gets in the Federer fan club forum?
For sure, I dont. If I did, I woudlnt have survived a day in here.
Welcome on my ignore list. :cool:
 

Mazz Retic

Hall of Fame
???
Who cares about how many likes one gets in the Federer fan club forum?
For sure, I dont. If I did, I woudlnt have survived a day in here.
Welcome on my ignore list. :cool:
My view is similar to Meles. I think the statistics are well done by OP and it is the first genuine attempt to explain the lopsided H2H with figures. In saying that, there is obviously a Fed bias and the OP makes it clear that there is one. I haven't had time to digest the figures however I would speculate that to make them more objective further analysis needs to be done. My own personal view from looking at them and from my own intuition is that the H2H is a mixture of the two. As in, it is clear as day Nadal owned/owns the H2H however taking into consideration where they played might explain factors which contributed to the H2H being so lopsided.
 

falstaff78

Hall of Fame
I haven't had time to digest the figures however I would speculate that to make them more objective further analysis needs to be done.

I would greatly welcome your input. It would be invaluable to have further debate and pushback. This way either i can respond, or improve the analysis.

I hope you get the time soon.

And thanks for your kind words.
 

TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
My view is similar to Meles. I think the statistics are well done by OP and it is the first genuine attempt to explain the lopsided H2H with figures. In saying that, there is obviously a Fed bias and the OP makes it clear that there is one. I haven't had time to digest the figures however I would speculate that to make them more objective further analysis needs to be done. My own personal view from looking at them and from my own intuition is that the H2H is a mixture of the two. As in, it is clear as day Nadal owned/owns the H2H however taking into consideration where they played might explain factors which contributed to the H2H being so lopsided.
The headline is that the H2H is bogus.
From that starting point.....what can I say ;)
For players rivaly is important an they do remember matches. From the pros I have met its a real thing. A win is a win. A loss is a loss. No explanation or excuses needed. I have brought this subject up to real players.
I guess this means more to fans and its a different perspective.
 

falstaff78

Hall of Fame
In saying that, there is obviously a Fed bias and the OP makes it clear that there is one.

Re: this point. I think the law is a better analogy for this topic than academia.

A better understanding will emerge from two sets of people advocating each side of a debate. Hopefully in a civilized and sensible way.

It is impossible to get a bunch of ostensibly neutral people to debate this, as would be the case in academia.
 

moonballs

Hall of Fame
The headline is that the H2H is bogus.
From that starting point.....what can I say ;)
For players rivaly is important an they do remember matches. From the pros I have met its a real thing. A win is a win. A loss is a loss. No explanation or excuses needed. I have brought this subject up to real players.
I guess this means more to fans and its a different perspective.
Real player will also remember the loss that prevented them from reaching the slam final (which they wanted to reach).

In 2004-2007 Fed won quite a few slams. It is not Feds fault Nadal was not on the other side of the net in those finals.

Citing the h2h as some proof of dominance is like using failures as proof of success.

Thankfully in 2017 we all saw which way the dominance goes.
 

TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
Real player will also remember the loss that prevented them from reaching the slam final (which they wanted to reach).

In 2004-2007 Fed won quite a few slams. It is not Feds fault Nadal was not on the other side of the net in those finals.

Citing the h2h as some proof of dominance is like using failures as proof of success.

Thankfully in 2017 we all saw which way the dominance goes.

But if Rafa starts beating Fed again, those numbers will suddenly be excused for ;)
 

shadowplay

New User
[comment 1/2]

"Overall, Federer and Nadal entered 151 tournaments together. Federer won more of these (47 vs. 37) and went further more often (73 vs. 67 with 11 ties). The same is true of the 46 majors they entered together - Federer went further more often (25 v. 19), and won more (16 v. 14). They have played in 25% of tournaments entered together (37) Interestingly, Federer won the title each time he beat Nadal (14/14). Whereas Nadal won the title 17/23 times he beat Federer."

This is all good to convince yourself, but it doesn't show "GOATness", it only shows consistency. "Going further" or making the latter stages of slams and tournaments, more often, will show nothing more than just great consistency, which is a facet of greatness, but not the be-all-and-end-all.

You've also conveniently left out the fact that Rafa is simply more injury-prone than Federer is, which is solely bad luck on Rafa, or just luck on Federer's part. An example of this are AO 2014 where Rafa was yet to drop a set against Stan, but lost after beating Federer relatively easily. Not to mention the fact that Rafa had to Nole to play in finals of slams where he beat Federer (USO 2011, AO 2012) who easily trumps Federer's tame opposition from the 2004-07 era, whereas Federer beat Rafa mostly in finals of slams and either before Rafa's prime, or after his decline. So your stats are oversimplified.

"Split by first and second half of season Nadal does better than Federer in the first half of the season, until RG (went further 50 vs. 29). And Federer does better after RG (went further 44 vs. 17). This should tell you how big a favourite Federer is for the year end ranking in 2017 - it won't even be close. The same trend is reflected in their head to head. Nadal leads 20-7 in the first half, and Federer leads 7-3 in the second half. The two most common explanations offered for this trend are: increased court speeds in the second half of the year, and fatigue for Nadal after clay court exertions."

Nah, this is a bit of cherry-picking to oversimplify and/or obfuscate the matter.

Firstly, you need to specify what exactly you're talking about. Are we talking about slams? Masters? If it's the former, then you'll know that despite only one of the 2 slams favouring him (in terms of pace) he still does better, in terms of strike rate and consistency in that one slam than Federer does in the 2 slams in the second part of the season, even though both favour him. If we wanted to use your self-serving way to compare to work out, we would have to make things a little fairer on Rafa and have 2 clay slams in the first half and keep Wimby and the USO the same and then we'll see that it really wouldn’t matter if Rafa got far enough on the faster surfaces or not, he's just better on his favourite surface than Federer is on his. This is again reflected in the H2H and in slams. Don't you think it's slightly telling how Federer has never taken Rafa to 5 at RG in 5 attempts and yet, Rafa not only took Federer to 5 at Wimby, but dethroned him in 2008? Secondly, on a more personal note, I wouldn’t be so sure on Federer ending the year No 1, it is possible, but given your poor analysis of the situation, you might want to save some face, or whatever's left of it, if your "confident" prediction shouldn’t come off.

Thirdly and unsurprisingly, you've once again completely ignored Rafa's injuries, which have hampered him time and time again and have no doubt been a lead factor in his inferior consistency.

"A key question is: why have they played 27 matches in the first half of the year, and only 10 in the second? There are two reasons for this: The first is that they entered far fewer draws together in the second half (67 vs. 84) The second is that they played in a greater fraction of the draws they entered in the first half of the year, than in the second (in first half, met in 32% of common tournaments, vs. 15% in the second half). Both of these reasons are due to Nadal: First, he enters far fewer events in the second half of the year (only 46% of his career tournament entries are after RG vs. 52% for Federer) Second, in the tournaments Nadal and Federer did play in the second half, Nadal only reached 28% of "dates". Federer, on the other hand, reached 64%. Compare this to the first half, where Federer was much closer to Nadal in reaching "dates" (51% vs. 58%)"

When will you comprehend that more consistent =/= greater? Nonetheless, I already answered your "key question", which is actually quite irrelevant, once we take into account just how much better Rafa is on his best surface, compared with RF. Just for your information, it is easier to stay consistent when you don't have a congenital bone defect, causing you to become so injury-prone and also when 2 of the slams play to your beat, as opposed to one for Rafa. Also, to further enforce my point, Rafa has almost as good a win% as Federer does in first half as in the second half, respectively, and yet, Wimby and the USO both favour Federer over Rafa, but you couldn't say the AO, IW or Miami favour Rafa over Federer. From the 3 clay Masters and the lone clay slam, Rafa gets enough to equal a guy who has pretty much both slams to himself in the second half of the season, not to mention, the overrated WTF, which is played on a custom-made court for him. If by "dates" you mean when they meet, well that is quite oversimplified and misleading too, simply because of Rafa's injuries. In fact, I'll give you an example, since the underlying fundamental to your logic is "Federer got further, so he would've won if they met". This theory gets exposed nicely in the 2009-10 period. Even if we take out RG 2009, there is nothing to suggest that Federer had anything on Rafa come Wimby or USO 2009, or even AO 2010, but if we went by your fanboy logic, we'd have to come to the conclusion that Federer got further and so he would've won, when the truth is that Rafa's injuries flared up, yet again, helping Federer to another few slams he would never have won otherwise, especially given how poorly he played in the Wimby 2009 final. I would encourage you to watch a few matches from Federer's AO 2009 campaign (especially against Delpo and Roddick). So, the real "key question" for you is, if Rafa lost early in AO 2009, would you be including that in your oversimplified statistic?

"Split by surface We can see the same trend when we split their records by surface. On clay Nadal killed Federer 13-2, and they played in 38% of draws entered together. On grass and hard courts, Federer leads, and they have only met 20% of the time on each. Specifically, on hard courts in the second half of the season, Federer leads 5-2; in such draws, they play each other only 1/3 as often as clay. (13% of draws, vs. 38%). Again, Nadal is clearly the culprit, having only reached their "date" 27% of the time. vs. 60% for Federer."

More oversimplifications. You don't appear to be in the mood for being specific. See, for any of your points to have merit, you would have to put them into context, for example, you've left out the fact that hard courts dominate the tour, therefore giving Federer an advantage. In fact, given that WTF is also played on a hard court, there are 2 slams and 7 Masters equivelant played on hard, compared with 1 slam and 3 Masters played on clay, so I make that more than double and that's not even counting the one other slam which is played on Grass.

Also, there is the fact that hard courts aggravate Rafa's "Kohler's" bone defect, which would partially explain why he is more injury prone during and after tournaments played on hard court. If you want to have this issue properly debated, you'll have to specify in exactly what tournaments you're talking about, until then, you're just repeating the same self-serving arguments, which all hint at the obvious, Federer is more consistent (but Rafa is better).
 

shadowplay

New User
[comment 2/2]

"Split by time As a consequence of the 5 year age difference, their peaks have no overlap. Federer's peak of winning 11/16 majors was from 2004-2007. Whereas Nadal's peak years were all between 2008 and 2013. During Federer's peak, out of 24 tournaments in the first half of the season, they met 10 times (42%). Nadal won 8. However, out of 24 tournaments late in the season, they only met 4 times (17%). Federer won all 4. Again, the smaller number of matches in the second half was due to Nadal. Nadal showed up for "dates" much more often in the first half of the year (54% vs. 21%). Whereas Federer showed up to 75% of "dates" in the first half season, and 79% in the second. By comparison, during Nadal's peak years, Federer was much more consistent about reaching the "date" early and late in the season. (40% vs. 45%)."

And what do you know, the oversimplifications continue... This time your problem is that you have no definition of "peak", so you've cherry picked a time which would best suit your theory. Are you sure 2009 isn't "peak" Federer? By many accounts, including the one you love most (consistency) Federer had a better season in 2009 than in 2005, so why is 2005 his "peak" and not 2009. In fact, in 2009 Federer remained a force on all surfaces, whereas in 2004 he lost fairly easily to Kuerten at RG in only the third round. So once again, unless you define "peak" you'll be going nowhere. So I think we can stretch the self-serving 2004-07, to a more realistic 2004-09, where in which there is an overlap of 2008-09, where in which Rafa beat Federer in 3 of 4 slams, including a dethroning at Wimby, something Federer never managed at RG and a demolition job at RG. If you're thinking of excuses, mono isn't and can't be one of them, as he was cleared to play well before RG 2008. Federer then went on to take advantage of Rafa's injuries to win his only RG and regain No 1 through Rafa's injury at Wimby 2009. It really is interesting how different things look when you put them into perspective. Your second point is more to do with the same 2 reasons on offer, none of which are Rafa's fault in any way. Federer is more privileged in terms of court surfaces and because of Rafa's injuries, which stem from his injury-prone nature, which in fact Federer should be counting his lucky stars for, especially in the instances discussed above.

"To conclude, this post has merely quantified what we already know: that Federer vs. Nadal matches were strongly skewed towards conditions suiting Nadal, and that this is due to Nadal's shortcomings vs the field. The reason head-to-head is such a silly metric is: if Nadal had played better against the field later in the year, especially on hard courts, and especially between 2003 and 2007, his head to head with Federer would have been much closer to parity. The purpose of professional tennis is to advance as far as possible in tournaments. It is therefore much more relevant to look at who went further in more tournaments that both played (Federer 73-67). Or who won more tournaments that they both played (Federer 47-37). This objectively means Federer has done better than Nadal, head to head."

Nope, still no luck with this one, I'm afraid. Since this is just the same meaningless waffle, let me again put this into perspective. Whilst the only thing you got right was Federer-Rafa matches being skewed, you once again jumped to conclusions based on countless false premises, not least of which is the main one, you can never say that Federer would've beaten Rafa simply because of the fact that he got further than Rafa in a given tournament. Your point about H2H could be turned around for Federer's weak era achievements; if Federer had Nadal and Nole to deal with from the outset, would he even have half the slams he has today? In fact, scrap that, if Rafa had ben remotely as lucky as he had been with injuries, wouldn't the slam count at least be even, if not in Rafa's favour? Federer fans will always lose because you contradict yourself and find it difficult to make sense. On the one hand, you criticise Rafans and Nole fans when they speculate and yet you're full of "ifs" and "buts" here …"If Rafa met Federer more (yadder, yadder)", "if they met more off clay (BS)". So whilst the objective is to win as many tournaments as possible, we can't have logic that is fully clouded oversimplifying or just ignoring the two main factors (Rafa's injuries and Federer's luck with court surfaces) and persisting with his own perception of reality. The truth is that those two factors have had a clear and undeniable effect on Rafa's consistency and his slam count, unlike what you want others on this thread to believe.
 

Logic

Semi-Pro
[comment 2/2]
So whilst the objective is to win as many tournaments as possible, we can't have logic that is fully clouded oversimplifying or just ignoring the two main factors (Rafa's injuries and Federer's luck with court surfaces) and persisting with his own perception of reality. The truth is that those two factors have had a clear and undeniable effect on Rafa's consistency and his slam count, unlike what you want others on this thread to believe.

1. To some extent, the fact that Rafa is more injury prone than Roger is because the former plays a more grinding style of tennis, so if you are going to accept the great achievements that this style has brought him, you must also accept the price he has paid for it.

2. Both Roger and Rafa (or their coaches) knew from the beginning what the surface distribution of the pro tour looked like (especially with regards to majors). So the fact that there is only one clay major (Rafa's strength) is not bad luck, but (again) the price paid for becoming a clay court specialist. After all, knowing that there are two hard court majors per year, Uncle Toni could have trained him to become a hard court specialist instead. Why didn't he?

It seems like both of your excuses boil down to your wanting to have your cake and eat it too.
 

The_18th_Slam

Hall of Fame
1. To some extent, the fact that Rafa is more injury prone than Roger is because the former plays a more grinding style of tennis, so if you are going to accept the great achievements that this style has brought him, you must also accept the price he has paid for it.

2. Both Roger and Rafa (or their coaches) knew from the beginning what the surface distribution of the pro tour looked like (especially with regards to majors). So the fact that there is only one clay major (Rafa's strength) is not bad luck, but (again) the price paid for becoming a clay court specialist. After all, knowing that there are two hard court majors per year, Uncle Toni could have trained him to become a hard court specialist instead. Why didn't he?

It seems like both of your excuses boil down to your wanting to have your cake and eat it too.
Logic, showing us once again why they're the most logical poster on the forum.
 

GOATzilla

Banned
Federer has ALL the accomplishments in the world, still his fans need to make such desperate attempts to dismiss one of the only few shortcomings in his career.
Yea, he couldn't get the best of Nadal for the most of his career, who's also an all-time great. So what, just deal with it.

H2H is not the be all end all like some Nadal fans claim, and it's certainly NOT "bogus" like some Federer devotees claim.

Federer fans are like Thomas Edisons' followers in that way. They will witch-hunt and tarnish anyone who stands against Edison (Federer, in this analogy).

Cheers,
GOATzilla :)
 

babbette

Legend
Or he would have had further lead by beating Fed at the US open twice instead and thus getting further mental edge on Fed as he has had it for the better part of a decade.


Anyways this thread is hilarious. Fed fans are a hoot. Your heads must hurt
 

falstaff78

Hall of Fame
[comment 2/2]

"Split by time As a consequence of the 5 year age difference, their peaks have no overlap. Federer's peak of winning 11/16 majors was from 2004-2007. Whereas Nadal's peak years were all between 2008 and 2013. During Federer's peak, out of 24 tournaments in the first half of the season, they met 10 times (42%). Nadal won 8. However, out of 24 tournaments late in the season, they only met 4 times (17%). Federer won all 4. Again, the smaller number of matches in the second half was due to Nadal. Nadal showed up for "dates" much more often in the first half of the year (54% vs. 21%). Whereas Federer showed up to 75% of "dates" in the first half season, and 79% in the second. By comparison, during Nadal's peak years, Federer was much more consistent about reaching the "date" early and late in the season. (40% vs. 45%)."

And what do you know, the oversimplifications continue... This time your problem is that you have no definition of "peak", so you've cherry picked a time which would best suit your theory. Are you sure 2009 isn't "peak" Federer? By many accounts, including the one you love most (consistency) Federer had a better season in 2009 than in 2005, so why is 2005 his "peak" and not 2009. In fact, in 2009 Federer remained a force on all surfaces, whereas in 2004 he lost fairly easily to Kuerten at RG in only the third round. So once again, unless you define "peak" you'll be going nowhere. So I think we can stretch the self-serving 2004-07, to a more realistic 2004-09, where in which there is an overlap of 2008-09, where in which Rafa beat Federer in 3 of 4 slams, including a dethroning at Wimby, something Federer never managed at RG and a demolition job at RG. If you're thinking of excuses, mono isn't and can't be one of them, as he was cleared to play well before RG 2008. Federer then went on to take advantage of Rafa's injuries to win his only RG and regain No 1 through Rafa's injury at Wimby 2009. It really is interesting how different things look when you put them into perspective. Your second point is more to do with the same 2 reasons on offer, none of which are Rafa's fault in any way. Federer is more privileged in terms of court surfaces and because of Rafa's injuries, which stem from his injury-prone nature, which in fact Federer should be counting his lucky stars for, especially in the instances discussed above.

"To conclude, this post has merely quantified what we already know: that Federer vs. Nadal matches were strongly skewed towards conditions suiting Nadal, and that this is due to Nadal's shortcomings vs the field. The reason head-to-head is such a silly metric is: if Nadal had played better against the field later in the year, especially on hard courts, and especially between 2003 and 2007, his head to head with Federer would have been much closer to parity. The purpose of professional tennis is to advance as far as possible in tournaments. It is therefore much more relevant to look at who went further in more tournaments that both played (Federer 73-67). Or who won more tournaments that they both played (Federer 47-37). This objectively means Federer has done better than Nadal, head to head."

Nope, still no luck with this one, I'm afraid. Since this is just the same meaningless waffle, let me again put this into perspective. Whilst the only thing you got right was Federer-Rafa matches being skewed, you once again jumped to conclusions based on countless false premises, not least of which is the main one, you can never say that Federer would've beaten Rafa simply because of the fact that he got further than Rafa in a given tournament. Your point about H2H could be turned around for Federer's weak era achievements; if Federer had Nadal and Nole to deal with from the outset, would he even have half the slams he has today? In fact, scrap that, if Rafa had ben remotely as lucky as he had been with injuries, wouldn't the slam count at least be even, if not in Rafa's favour? Federer fans will always lose because you contradict yourself and find it difficult to make sense. On the one hand, you criticise Rafans and Nole fans when they speculate and yet you're full of "ifs" and "buts" here …"If Rafa met Federer more (yadder, yadder)", "if they met more off clay (BS)". So whilst the objective is to win as many tournaments as possible, we can't have logic that is fully clouded oversimplifying or just ignoring the two main factors (Rafa's injuries and Federer's luck with court surfaces) and persisting with his own perception of reality. The truth is that those two factors have had a clear and undeniable effect on Rafa's consistency and his slam count, unlike what you want others on this thread to believe.

summarize pls? longer isn't always better! thanks.
 

falstaff78

Hall of Fame
Federer has ALL the accomplishments in the world, still his fans need to make such desperate attempts to dismiss one of the only few shortcomings in his career.
Yea, he couldn't get the best of Nadal for the most of his career, who's also an all-time great. So what, just deal with it.

H2H is not the be all end all like some Nadal fans claim, and it's certainly NOT "bogus" like some Federer devotees claim.

Federer fans are like Thomas Edisons' followers in that way. They will witch-hunt and tarnish anyone who stands against Edison (Federer, in this analogy).

Cheers,
GOATzilla :)

it's just facts and logic. dispute it if you are able.
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
You've also conveniently left out the fact that Rafa is simply more injury-prone than Federer is, which is solely bad luck on Rafa...
this is a bit of cherry-picking to oversimplify and/or obfuscate the matter.

Most of your treatise was nothing but Nadal idolatry literally dripping with obfuscation (not that I waded through all that needless pedantry...)

Rafa was more "injury prone" because his innate talent is far less than Fed. He spends endless hours practicing at full throttle and routinely takes three hours for a two set match. He' a grinder, not a shot maker as Fed is and his style of play is the reason he has been injured so often in his career. Fed doesn't play defensively, grind down opponents and make every match a physical contest. He doesn't need to do that.

Here's a lush chestnut:

"...if Federer had Nadal and Nole to deal with from the outset, would he even have half the slams he has today?"

Let's see, "if Roddick never had Fed to deal with, he could have won 15 slams!"--- "If Andre could have returned Pete's serve 80% of the time, he could have won 12 majors!" We can play that particular game all day long.

Deal with Fed being the greater player with the far better career and move on.
 

GOATzilla

Banned
it's just facts and logic. dispute it if you are able.

Lol I don't have to. You're so desperately trying to dispute a simple fact that Nadal won more matches than he lost against Federer.

It's pretty simple, actually. Unless you're a mega fanboy, and you HAVE to claim a statistic to be "bogus" so that it reinforces your fanaticism.

:)
 
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