The definitive explanation of why the Federer Nadal head-to-head is bogus

Is head to head a bogus metric?

  • I didn't think h2h is bogus - but after this post I do

  • I thought h2h is bogus - this post merely confirms that

  • I didn't think h2h is bogus - and I still don't after this post

  • I thought h2h is bogus - but after this post I think it isn't


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Tornes

Semi-Pro
Lol I don't have to. You're so desperately trying to dispute a simple fact that Nadal won more matches than he lost against Federer.

It's pretty simple, actually. Unless you're a mega fanboy, and you HAVE to claim a statistic to be "bogus" so that it reinforces your fanaticism.

:)

Straw man. He never said anything like "Nadal did not win more matches against Federer." He only said that eventhough he did, it does not mean he is better player, because there are other circumstances, mostly in favour of Rafa.
 

GOATzilla

Banned
Straw man. He never said anything like "Nadal did not win more matches against Federer." He only said that eventhough he did, it does not mean he is better player, because there are other circumstances, mostly in favour of Rafa.

Thread titled:
The definitive explanation of why the Federer Nadal head-to-head is bogus


Ok.
 

shadowplay

New User
summarize pls? longer isn't always better! thanks.

1) That what you wrote shows consistency, only. 2) That Federer being more consistent doesn't mean that he's better than Rafa. 2) You using the "he got further, so he would've won if they played" argument is deeply flawed, especially when it comes to Rafa, and his injuries.
 

shadowplay

New User
1. To some extent, the fact that Rafa is more injury prone than Roger is because the former plays a more grinding style of tennis, so if you are going to accept the great achievements that this style has brought him, you must also accept the price he has paid for it.

2. Both Roger and Rafa (or their coaches) knew from the beginning what the surface distribution of the pro tour looked like (especially with regards to majors). So the fact that there is only one clay major (Rafa's strength) is not bad luck, but (again) the price paid for becoming a clay court specialist. After all, knowing that there are two hard court majors per year, Uncle Toni could have trained him to become a hard court specialist instead. Why didn't he?

It seems like both of your excuses boil down to your wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

1) No, Rafa is more injury-prone because of his bone defect, which played a big part in his tendinitis, which in turn played a big part in Federer winning 3 of the 4 slams in the 2009-10 period. Since the ******* above is stuck on the same problem, maybe you might want to help him out by actually giving conclusive proof that injuries and playing style are related. (To do that, you would first have to explain why Thomas Muster, Michael Chang and Ferrer have not had a single prolonged injury break, whilst having a playing style just as tough as Rafa's on the body). 2) You could ask Uncle Toni that question directly, but it has more to do with Rafa being raised in Spain, which predominantly has clay courts, hence why Rafa's FH is what it is (but during his prime, he was also amazing at flattening it out to be a threat on all surfaces, as Federer found out by 2008-09). The bottom line is that this is no doubt a big factor in Federer's greater consistency (and more slams) than Rafa. Also, I hope you've realised a few things: That what OP wrote shows consistency, only. That Federer being more consistent doesn't mean that he's better than Rafa. The "he got further, so he would've won if they played" argument is deeply flawed, especially when it comes to Rafa, and his injuries.
 

VolleyHelena

Semi-Pro
Of course H2H is bogus especially when Nadal made sure most of their meetings earlier were Clay and avoided meetings on other courts till he had a mental edge.

Only Nadal fangirls who have no sense of real tennis use it as a metric to defend their idol but in the real world it doesn't mean anything.
 

mightyjeditribble

Hall of Fame
1) That what you wrote shows consistency, only. 2) That Federer being more consistent doesn't mean that he's better than Rafa. 2) You using the "he got further, so he would've won if they played" argument is deeply flawed, especially when it comes to Rafa, and his injuries.

The thread title is provocative, but I think the analysis therein is interesting and thought-provoking.

Tennis fans, unless they have an agenda, would usually agree anyway that H2H is not a very meaningful metric, given the issue of match-ups. It is also well-known that the Federer-Nadal h2h is strongly skewed by playing on clay, where Nadal is and has been undoubtedly the better player.

What @falstaff78 shows here is something more nuanced, which is that, even beyond the clay-versus-not distinction, when you look at tournaments / parts of the season where traditionally Nadal has done well, his h2h is ahead there, whereas when you look at those where Federer tends to play better, he has the better h2h. The former happened more frequently than the latter (due to Fed's greater consistency across the years on all surfaces / Nadal having more injuries / whatever), and this skews the H2H strongly in favour of Nadal.

Now, of course @falstaff78 hasn't done a proper statistical analysis (and we couldn't expect them to), the data is by nature somewhat limited, and speculating on what would have happened if Nadal had made more of those matches doesn't give anything conclusive. However, the data is pretty compelling, and moreover turning the question around, it is fairly indisputable that, if Roger had had similar overall results on Nadal's turf as Nadal had on his, then his h2h would look better even though his results overall would have been worse.

I don't think the numbers argue whether Fed or Nadal is better; after all, I think they show that their record is pretty even against each other when these factors are taken out. However, it does challenge the conventional wisdom of how big Nadal's match-up advantage has been against Federer.

I speak as a Federer fan, but trying to keep all my biases away as much as I can, I don't see how anyone neutral could dispute that Federer has been the better player over his career so far than Nadal. (Of course, neither of them is finished, and Nadal is 5 years younger, so this could well still change - we'll see.) They are both amazing players, and have had amazing achievements, and have had amazing highs (as well as some lows). The only question is whether, if their other achievements get close, the H2H should play a role in determining who is greater. These stats go some further way to convincing me that it shouldn't (one way or the other).
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
That Federer being more consistent doesn't mean that he's better than Rafa.

@shadowplay

You have the floor, new user. Please tell us what makes Rafa better than Federer.

Take your time and be specific. Please cite your reasons aside from the H2H argument you will undoubtedly use. Also please answer this question: whose career would you rather have--- Nadal or Federer's?
 
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