We Need To Talk . . .

Cindysphinx

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
I played social doubles yesterday. Here's how it went.

Partner is at net in the deuce court; I am at baseline on ad side. Lob goes up over partner's head. Partner says nothing, I take a few steps to my right in case I need to reach this ball. Partner hits weak overhead, opponents volley it to the ad court that I vacated. Point to opponent.

We have the following conversation:

Partner: "Where were you going? Don't go behind me."
Me: "OK, but I wasn't sure whether you were going to hit it or not."
Partner: "If they lob, I've got all of this [indicates entire deuce side]."
Me: "OK."

A few points later, lob goes over partner. He doesn't try to play it, so I scoot over and hit a lob over my partner, then scoot back to my side. Point ends.

We have the following conversation:

Me: "Dude, what happened to you've got that side?"
Partner: "I didn't mean when I'm really close to the net."
Me: "Can't you just call 'Mine' or 'Switch' so I don't have to guess?"
Partner: "Look. If I'm close to the net, I won't be able to reach a lob like that. If I'm at the service line, I can get it."

GAH! Why do people resist communicating during the point and expect their partners to read their minds?
 
M

Max G.

Legend
Ugh, that sounds frustrating!

I'm totally guilty of that too in doubles. By the time I need to say something it's too late, it takes me like a second to remember and by then it's time to hit the ball...
 
G

GS

Professional
I once played doubs against a know-it-all guy who argued that I couldn't say "yours" or "mine" during a point, because it distracted him and was illegal. Huh?
Yep, there's lots of brainiacs out there on the courts.
 
Cindysphinx

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
Reminds me of a different partner I once had. We were playing league together, and it was not going well. Too many balls going unplayed.

So I told her that we needed to call lobs and middle balls to coordinate better. She said she had a disability that prevented her from calling a ball -- so it would be my responsibility to call *every* ball as "mine" or "yours." Then she would get annoyed at the "yours" calls because (1) I can't know whether she can reach a ball or not, and (2) her waiting for my call made her doubly late to the ball.
 
B

blakesq

Hall of Fame
Guess what, people make mistakes. Takes time to learn how to play with new partner. Even if you have perfect communication, still a good chance you and your partner get out of synch.
 
S

stevenymets

New User
blakesq said:
Guess what, people make mistakes. Takes time to learn how to play with new partner. Even if you have perfect communication, still a good chance you and your partner get out of synch.
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This is true. There is a group of 8 other guys I play with regularly, plus 2 women, and I can count on one hand how often we utter the words “mine” or “yours”. This is simply due to all of us understanding where each other is going to be; familiarity. In @Cindysphinx example, lob goes over my head at the net in the ad court on my side, I am switching automatically, and probably dropping to the service line dependent on how good my partner’s shot is, as I am assuming since she is on the run covering the shot from the baseline she won’t be too offensive with it. But, that is just because I know how my friends play. If I’m playin with @Cindysphinx, I am guessing if she is runnin to the ad court, and she is a righty, she is going to cover the lob over my head with her own rippin topspin backhand lob cross court over their net players head into their ad court for a clear winner. So I will already be turning around before the ball lands to give her a high five.
 
AtomicForehand

AtomicForehand

Hall of Fame
Yes, communicate--but CLEARLY, please.

I played with a partner who had the very disconcerting habit of saying "HIT!!!" for certain balls.

This was perplexing. :confused: Her body language wouldn't be at all clear, either, adding to my confusion.

It might be that we'd be going after the same ball, and she'd say "HIT!!!"--which was just weird enough to throw me off, wondering if she was calling me off or egging me on. (Was "HIT!!!" meant to encourage herself to rip it, or an injunction to me to do likewise?)

Or sometimes I'd be going for a putaway volley or smash--she'd be nowhere near the ball--and just as I'd be about to make contact, she'd yell "HIT!!!"--which totally distracted me and generally resulted in my muffing the shot.

I had to ask her--repeatedly--to 1) not say anything at all if I was clearly about to put the ball away; 2) say "you" or "me" if we were both going after the same ball; 3) say "switch" if she wanted me to cover behind her. "HIT!!" was her all-purpose term for any of these situations.o_O

(I'm gnashing my teeth as I type this to you guys.:mad:)
 
Cindysphinx

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
AtomicForehand said:
Yes, communicate--but CLEARLY, please.

I played with a partner who had the very disconcerting habit of saying "HIT!!!" for certain balls.

This was perplexing. :confused: Her body language wouldn't be at all clear, either, adding to my confusion.

It might be that we'd be going after the same ball, and she'd say "HIT!!!"--which was just weird enough to throw me off, wondering if she was calling me off or egging me on. (Was "HIT!!!" meant to encourage herself to rip it, or an injunction to me to do likewise?)

Or sometimes I'd be going for a putaway volley or smash--she'd be nowhere near the ball--and just as I'd be about to make contact, she'd yell "HIT!!!"--which totally distracted me and generally resulted in my muffing the shot.

I had to ask her--repeatedly--to 1) not say anything at all if I was clearly about to put the ball away; 2) say "you" or "me" if we were both going after the same ball; 3) say "switch" if she wanted me to cover behind her. "HIT!!" was her all-purpose term for any of these situations.o_O

(I'm gnashing my teeth as I type this to you guys.:mad:)
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I had a teammate some years back who yelled, "PUT IT AWAY!" when her partner was lining up an easy winner.

I guess she thrived on dirty looks from her partners.
 
Ronaldo

Ronaldo

Bionic Poster
Last summer on the 1st lob over my head I could not play it. My partner asked if we are going to play/retrieve lobs today. He knew the lobfest was starting. Gotta love senior doubles.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Cindysphinx said:
I played social doubles yesterday. Here's how it went.

Partner is at net in the deuce court; I am at baseline on ad side. Lob goes up over partner's head. Partner says nothing, I take a few steps to my right in case I need to reach this ball. Partner hits weak overhead, opponents volley it to the ad court that I vacated. Point to opponent.

We have the following conversation:

Partner: "Where were you going? Don't go behind me."
Me: "OK, but I wasn't sure whether you were going to hit it or not."
Partner: "If they lob, I've got all of this [indicates entire deuce side]."
Me: "OK."

A few points later, lob goes over partner. He doesn't try to play it, so I scoot over and hit a lob over my partner, then scoot back to my side. Point ends.

We have the following conversation:

Me: "Dude, what happened to you've got that side?"
Partner: "I didn't mean when I'm really close to the net."
Me: "Can't you just call 'Mine' or 'Switch' so I don't have to guess?"
Partner: "Look. If I'm close to the net, I won't be able to reach a lob like that. If I'm at the service line, I can get it."

GAH! Why do people resist communicating during the point and expect their partners to read their minds?
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It's so obvious: you need to cover the lobs he can't reach and don't try to cover the ones he can. Duh! All this without him saying anything because "it's so obvious". :)
 
mucat

mucat

Hall of Fame
I thought girls can communicate without talking? That's what my wife expects anyway......am I in trouble again?
 
OnTheLine

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
And totally agree on a good level of communication ... but please do not over-do it.

One partner took a lesson on "doubles communication" with a visiting pro. Suddenly, she called Me or Yours on EVERYTHING. If she is at net and opponent hits good CC groundstroke to me at Ad baseline, she yells yours ... yeah, I know that. If I am at net and a nice fat sitter comes my way, she yells Yours ... again, I know that you nit wit stop telling me what I already know!
 
S

spun_out

Semi-Pro
Well, if they were good at communicating and being a good teammate, then they probably would have stuck with another sport instead of playing tennis...
 
T

texasleaguer

Rookie
I solved the communication problem years ago. When I play doubles, which isn't often and by choice, I just tell my partner "after my serve or ROS everything is yours." Confusion about who's getting what stops right there since he knows he's gotta get everything.
 
S

Say Chi Sin Lo

G.O.A.T.
You should try to get into a cross court rally, and then suddenly just abandon the point and be like. "Dude, where were you? I thought you got this? I expected to you cover the net, even my half of the court."

But as far as communications go, sometimes, I get annoyed when my partner keeps saying "YOURS!" when the ball is clearly heading my way.

Going back to the cross court rally example:

*Service return cross court*
*Opponent hits back cross court to me*
--- "YOURS!!!"---
*Hits back cross court*
*Opponents hits back cross court to me*
--- "YOURS!!!*---
Sustaining a cross court rally now
--- "YOURS!!!"---
--- "YOURS!!!"---
--- "YOURS!!!"---
--- "YOURS!!!"---
--- "YOURS!!!"---
--- "YOURS!!!"---

... shut the f*** up! No s**t it's mine!
 
S

stevenymets

New User
Say Chi Sin Lo said:
You should try to get into a cross court rally, and then suddenly just abandon the point and be like. "Dude, where were you? I thought you got this? I expected to you cover the net, even my half of the court."

But as far as communications go, sometimes, I get annoyed when my partner keeps saying "YOURS!" when the ball is clearly heading my way.

Going back to the cross court rally example:

*Service return cross court*
*Opponent hits back cross court to me*
--- "YOURS!!!"---
*Hits back cross court*
*Opponents hits back cross court to me*
--- "YOURS!!!*---
Sustaining a cross court rally now
--- "YOURS!!!"---
--- "YOURS!!!"---
--- "YOURS!!!"---
--- "YOURS!!!"---
--- "YOURS!!!"---
--- "YOURS!!!"---

... shut the f*** up! No s**t it's mine!
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LOL!!!
 
MathGeek

MathGeek

Hall of Fame
At the baseline, my habit is to start moving toward every ball until the net player hits it, at which time I move back into position. At my level, partners at the net tend to go after too much and make a lot of unforced errors which costs many more points than the baseliner being out of position by taking a few steps to be in a good spot to hit it if they let it go. I encourage my partners at the net to only make plays on balls where they create an offensive advantage or stuff hard in the alley that I am unlikely to get to. And I've also done very well with baseliners willing to do the same for me when I'm at the net.

The basic idea for the net player is, "Just because you can touch it, doesn't mean you have to."

The basic idea for the baseliner is, "Chase it down and sent it back. Don't let the net player fool you. Have their back."

The decision for a net player to pull back (not hit a ball after initial movements indicating they will) happens too fast and too late for effective verbal communication. The baseliner needs to already be moving to get to a lot of these balls and make a decent play. But the net player needs to know how to reposition and also be in motion if the baseliner calls switch. When I'm at the net, I also look at my baseliner to see where I need to be as/right after they hit the ball.

I try and communicate verbally a lot, but it is more useful when the word gets out before the ball crosses the net, and that's pretty quick. Verbal communication is most important when 1) My partner may expect me to get to a ball that I know I won't - usually due to something unexpected like falling down or inability to recover due to momentum 2) My partner and I will collide if we both go for it. This is the only case where verbal communication is likely to help after a ball crosses the net.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Cindysphinx said:
I played social doubles yesterday. Here's how it went.

Partner is at net in the deuce court; I am at baseline on ad side. Lob goes up over partner's head. Partner says nothing, I take a few steps to my right in case I need to reach this ball. Partner hits weak overhead, opponents volley it to the ad court that I vacated. Point to opponent.

We have the following conversation:

Partner: "Where were you going? Don't go behind me."
Me: "OK, but I wasn't sure whether you were going to hit it or not."
Partner: "If they lob, I've got all of this [indicates entire deuce side]."
Me: "OK."

A few points later, lob goes over partner. He doesn't try to play it, so I scoot over and hit a lob over my partner, then scoot back to my side. Point ends.

We have the following conversation:

Me: "Dude, what happened to you've got that side?"
Partner: "I didn't mean when I'm really close to the net."
Me: "Can't you just call 'Mine' or 'Switch' so I don't have to guess?"
Partner: "Look. If I'm close to the net, I won't be able to reach a lob like that. If I'm at the service line, I can get it."

GAH! Why do people resist communicating during the point and expect their partners to read their minds?
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Great video, especially the part starting at 0:43:

 
Cindysphinx

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
OK, I feel like I need to speak up on behalf of net players who say "yours" too much. A couple of things.

I try to be active at net and poach. This means I will not stand in one spot, and I will sometimes fake or lean or even go for a ball and realize I am not going to make the distance. Or I might simply be wrong-footed at the net (e.g. I mis-timed a fake so a ball I should have picked off is going to go by me). When I see a ball I could conceivably reach and decide not to poach, I will often say "Yours." This saves me a lot of dirty looks from partners who thought I was going when I was not.

The other reason I say "yours" is if I am trying to be aggressive, one way to do that is for me to assume every ball is my ball. That is my default, and I try to pick up the likely direction of the ball by reading my opponent. So when I see I cannot reach "my" ball, I will tell my partner "yours".

The reason I think this is OK is because I sometimes play with partners who will bail out on a poach or inexplicably not pick off a ball near them, but say nothing. I far prefer for them to give me a late "yours" than have me guess.

There is also a psychological thing that I appreciate when my partner says "yours." She is clearing the way for me to hit; I need not worry we will collide or wonder what she will do. I used to clinic drills to practice two at net, and we were working on calling the ball with mine or yours for every ball. It is hard to be alert enough to call the ball as it leaves your opponent's racket (as opposed to as it is already crossing the net), so one way to develop that skill is to practice by calling every ball -- even one headed right to you.

That said, if a partner is calling "yours" on balls obviously headed to the net player but never poaches or does anything at net, it is kind of a waste. And the situation OnTheLine describes is utterly bizarre.
 
Angle Queen

Angle Queen

Professional
MisterP said:
Just tell him "Leave it! Switch!" And if he goes for it and duffs it, it's on him.
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Surprised it took this long to get this reply.

As the "baseline" player, you are in a better position to see the entire court and play quarterback. Instead of waiting for the net person to make a decision on if they're gonna hit/leave it, you make it for them...preferably before it even reaches your team's side of the net. Either tell 'em you've got it and call for the switch or encourage them to "go for it" or say "I'm not there/can't get it." I like those better than 'yours' and are more likely to be truthfully -- your partner's OH (even a weak one) maybe better than you trying a running FH/lob, or worse, knowing you can't get there and leaving your side open/vulnerable. Better to be ready to defend than get yourself and your team horribly out of position.

Good on you for getting to play on a holiday w/e. Hope you and yours had a good one!
 
S

stevenymets

New User
Cindysphinx said:
OK, I feel like I need to speak up on behalf of net players who say "yours" too much. A couple of things.

I try to be active at net and poach. This means I will not stand in one spot, and I will sometimes fake or lean or even go for a ball and realize I am not going to make the distance. Or I might simply be wrong-footed at the net (e.g. I mis-timed a fake so a ball I should have picked off is going to go by me). When I see a ball I could conceivably reach and decide not to poach, I will often say "Yours." This saves me a lot of dirty looks from partners who thought I was going when I was not.

The other reason I say "yours" is if I am trying to be aggressive, one way to do that is for me to assume every ball is my ball. That is my default, and I try to pick up the likely direction of the ball by reading my opponent. So when I see I cannot reach "my" ball, I will tell my partner "yours".

The reason I think this is OK is because I sometimes play with partners who will bail out on a poach or inexplicably not pick off a ball near them, but say nothing. I far prefer for them to give me a late "yours" than have me guess.

There is also a psychological thing that I appreciate when my partner says "yours." She is clearing the way for me to hit; I need not worry we will collide or wonder what she will do. I used to clinic drills to practice two at net, and we were working on calling the ball with mine or yours for every ball. It is hard to be alert enough to call the ball as it leaves your opponent's racket (as opposed to as it is already crossing the net), so one way to develop that skill is to practice by calling every ball -- even one headed right to you.

That said, if a partner is calling "yours" on balls obviously headed to the net player but never poaches or does anything at net, it is kind of a waste. And the situation OnTheLine describes is utterly bizarre.
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Look, ultimately there are no hard and fast rules, bottom line, what are you and your partner comfortable with? How best do you play together? That is what is most important, and for each team that will be a little different. Communicating before the match, and between points is most crucial in establishing the ground rules.

That being said, in my opinion, for what it’s worth, (which isn’t a lot) in thinking about this, how often does yelling "yours" tell your partner something they don't already know? With both partners at the net, a ball hit down the middle, I get it (though even here, you have so little time.) Maybe a lob over the net players head, the net player drops back because they think they can hit an overhead then realize they can’t, I get a yours here from the net player. Maybe a few other situations as well, two forehands or backhands on a middle ground stroke (though this is something better discussed beforehand probably) but in general, my thought, “yours” is understood by the situation and, recognition by one player they can't hit it, and yelling yours for the other, doesn't give that second player enough time to prepare if they weren't already.

Humor me here........yes, I know you were told there wasn't going to be any math, but let's get in the weeds for a second to make the above point.......you may need a drink for this.
  • A tennis court is 78 feet long, one side is 39 feet.
  • A net player, being generous and assuming they are standing extra close to the net, is still probably 3 feet off the net.
  • Let's assume a baseline player is also 3 feet on average behind the baseline, so the two players are approximately 39 feet apart.
  • I have no idea, but let's say the average speed of a 3.5's groundstroke is 30 miles per hour (probably much harder than that.) This means that the ball is traveling 158,400 feet in an hour (5280 feet in a mile). Which means the ball is traveling 2640 feet in a minute, and means the ball is traveling 44 feet per second.
  • Which means it takes approximately .88 of a second for the ball to pass the net person and get to the baseline person.

So, the net person attempts to poach, realizes as the ball is coming to them that they won't be able to hit it, by the time they open their mouth to say "YOURS!", the ball is probably even with them, or a little past them.....if the baseline person was't already preparing, they aren't going to get set and hit a ball in .88 of a second (my numbers are conservative, probably less time.) Yelling yours in this situation does nothing to help your partner. Your partner needed to already be preparing, and most people would be. If the baseline person is doing their job, they are observing the shot from the opponent, moving, getting set, preparing and expecting the ball. If the net person poaches, great! If they don't, the baseline player is prepared..........

This is a bit nuanced, but in the above scenario, it is one thing for the baseline partner to say, "hey, I wasn't ready", vs, "I was distracted by your attempted poach." These are two different things. As I tried to establish above, if your partner wasn't ready, the person yelling yours as the ball goes by is not going to all of a sudden make them ready, there isn't enough lead time. That is on the baseline person for assuming the net person was going to hit the ball, and we know what happens when you assume.

Now, a baseline person saying they were distracted by the net person is something different. Yelling "yours" has nothing to do with this. This is a different problem; this isn't a problem of the baseline person not being ready, it is a problem of concentration, or distraction from the histrionics of the wild net person trying to poach everything on the court, and the next court over as well (I exaggerate for fun.) In this scenario, maybe setting some ground rules as to what the net person should try to poach or not would be helpful. But in either scenario, I don't see where yelling "yours" is going to help.
 
esgee48

esgee48

G.O.A.T.
This situation happens very infrequently with experienced doubles players. They cover their own side, or say HELP and switch if needed, MINE or just move to cover the ball. They even leave low shots down the middle for the player further back! Inexperienced players do not say much of anything, say one thing and do another, say things when it is too late to get to the ball, etc. A lot has to do with whether you are use to the partner, but those that are clueless are very hard to play with. There isn't much you can do because their bad or lack of experience habits predominate. Trying to cover for them does not help if they don't switch even when you say SWITCH.

This is not the same as 2 singles players playing doubles. That is another can of worms to talk about, but not here.
 
TimeToPlaySets

TimeToPlaySets

Legend
This sort of partner BS is why I have stopped playing doubles.

If I ever now play doubles, I truly no longer give a **** about the score.
I am just there to mix up my singles routine, and get some net play.
 
Nostradamus

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
Cindysphinx said:
I played social doubles yesterday. Here's how it went.

Partner is at net in the deuce court; I am at baseline on ad side. Lob goes up over partner's head. Partner says nothing, I take a few steps to my right in case I need to reach this ball. Partner hits weak overhead, opponents volley it to the ad court that I vacated. Point to opponent.

We have the following conversation:

Partner: "Where were you going? Don't go behind me."
Me: "OK, but I wasn't sure whether you were going to hit it or not."
Partner: "If they lob, I've got all of this [indicates entire deuce side]."
Me: "OK."

A few points later, lob goes over partner. He doesn't try to play it, so I scoot over and hit a lob over my partner, then scoot back to my side. Point ends.

We have the following conversation:

Me: "Dude, what happened to you've got that side?"
Partner: "I didn't mean when I'm really close to the net."
Me: "Can't you just call 'Mine' or 'Switch' so I don't have to guess?"
Partner: "Look. If I'm close to the net, I won't be able to reach a lob like that. If I'm at the service line, I can get it."

GAH! Why do people resist communicating during the point and expect their partners to read their minds?
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this happens even in men's leagues . I have asked frequently to my partners that "I really need you to say You or Mine in middle balls" It helps me get to balls split second faster and that is all it takes between weak volley into net or strong deep volley in the corner. but for whatever reason they don't do it and sometimes we end up crashing rackets in the middle balls.

On the lobs,,, I tell them call You or Mine as the ball passes over your head............ Not as the ball is bouncing on the baseline.......................Haayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
 
OrangePower

OrangePower

Legend
stevenymets said:
That being said, in my opinion, for what it’s worth, (which isn’t a lot) in thinking about this, how often does yelling "yours" tell your partner something they don't already know? With both partners at the net, a ball hit down the middle, I get it (though even here, you have so little time.) Maybe a lob over the net players head, the net player drops back because they think they can hit an overhead then realize they can’t, I get a yours here from the net player. Maybe a few other situations as well, two forehands or backhands on a middle ground stroke (though this is something better discussed beforehand probably) but in general, my thought, “yours” is understood by the situation and, recognition by one player they can't hit it, and yelling yours for the other, doesn't give that second player enough time to prepare if they weren't already.
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Right. Calling "yours" (or "mine") is only helpful if the partner has enough time for that information to be useful. This is the case for lobs, and maybe the odd dropshot, but not for anything else. Calling "yours" or "mine" on an attempt to poach does not leave the partner with enough time to react if he/she was not already prepared to do so.
 
S

stevenymets

New User
Reading a lot of this thread, it strikes me with people saying "yours", "leave it", "mine", "go for it", "I'm not there, can't get it", "supercalifragilisticexpialidocious" during a point may end up just distracting your partner. I know it would me. Yes, communication is important, especially in between points and games, and yes, the occasional "yours" or "I can't get it" during a point (lob over my head that I initially attempted to hit then realize I can't) makes sense, but during a point in tennis, especially in doubles, where the points happen far more quickly, all of this talking on a regular basis would be distracting for everyone. A "switch" (or more often "stay") after an opponent's shot necessitated a switching of sides between two partners makes sense for positional recommendation, but in general, as far as hitting recommendations, the point often dictates that.

It has been a while since I have read doubles strategy, but when I first started playing a lot of doubles, I read a decent amount, and I watch doubles on tv as much as I can to hear the analysts talk about strategy (No, I am not a surgeon, I just play one on tv.) However, a good rule of thumb that a lot of people talk about is, the net person gets what they can. They are positioned in such an offensive place on the court, that even an imperfect volley has more positive effect for your team than a baseline person hitting a ball much further back in the court. Again, there are so many variables here, so I am not saying this is a hard and fast rule. However, when I play, if I am in the baseline position, I am encouraging my partner at the net to take everything they can, I don't want any hesitation. "You need to run all the way over into my alley on a short looper close to the net because you think you can hit the ball in a better or more offensive position than I could, GO FOR IT!"

It is my job at the baseline, to be ready if my partner misses the poach, decides not to poach, or to cross behind him if my partner has poached onto my side of the court. There doesn't have to be a ton of communication during a point to do this. I am not dissuading people from communicating, or trying advocate against communication, quite the opposite, I am advocating for meaningful, non distracting communication, and to lay down some basic ground rules for people so there is more understanding between partners.

Sort of unrelated, a huge benefit of an active net person is that your opponents start second guessing where to hit the ball. This has added benefits. Often, people don't do the calculation of the effect of an active net person on your opponent's unforced errors, because it is hard to make an exact correlation. I can't tell you how many times I have attempted to poach on a serve down the middle, say, to the deuce court (much easier to poach on middle serves than outside serves by the way) only to have the right handed receiver hit a "cross body" backhand down the line behind me and my partner say, "hey, watch the line." However, I have just invested in the future. We might have lost that point, but that receiver hit an incredible low percentage shot for a winner. The next time, they may hit it out, or, I may not be poaching and I have an easy volley. Getting your opponents to attempt low percentage shots and second guess where to hit it is a huge benefit of an active net person, even if that net person never hits a winner, just their activity is enough to win a few free points at crucial times.
 
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stevenymets

New User
Cindysphinx said:
A few points later, lob goes over partner. He doesn't try to play it, so I scoot over and hit a lob over my partner, then scoot back to my side. Point ends.
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One last point, then I will shut up and go away (yes, it's obvious that i have passion for this topic). @Cindysphinx, your partner was doubly wrong in your initial post. The minute the lob goes over his head, he needs to cross, instinctively, no hesitation. He doesn't even need to look at you. The baseline person will either hussle over and get it, then stay and cover their "new side" of the court, or the lob will be a winner and point over. The minute the net player realizes the ball is over his head, he needs to cross and cover the recently vacated side (by the baseline player) of the court. In @Cindysphinx example above, why on earth would her partner expect her to cover the lob, then run back to her side of the court?

Of course, this is different if the lob is cross court, a switch would not be necessary here, but quite often, the baseline player is opposite the opposing net player, and the lob down the line is a common play in doubles.
 
Angle Queen

Angle Queen

Professional
I should've read @OrangePower response first.

"Go for it" on volleys...to be sure!

Lobs, you got time to talk.

No need to apologize for the passion @stevenymets . That's why we're here. At least you try to articulate your position. On the court. ;)

I will say, for me, it's the fun of playing with different people...trying to work it all out. Hoping we all have fun along the way.
 
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S

Startzel

Hall of Fame
stevenymets said:
Reading a lot of this thread, it strikes me with people saying "yours", "leave it", "mine", "go for it", "I'm not there, can't get it", "supercalifragilisticexpialidocious" during a point may end up just distracting your partner. I know it would me. Yes, communication is important, especially in between points and games, and yes, the occasional "yours" or "I can't get it" during a point (lob over my head that I initially attempted to hit then realize I can't) makes sense, but during a point in tennis, especially in doubles, where the points happen far more quickly, all of this talking on a regular basis would be distracting for everyone. A "switch" (or more often "stay") after an opponent's shot necessitated a switching of sides between two partners makes sense for positional recommendation, but in general, as far as hitting recommendations, the point often dictates that.

It has been a while since I have read doubles strategy, but when I first started playing a lot of doubles, I read a decent amount, and I watch doubles on tv as much as I can to hear the analysts talk about strategy (No, I am not a surgeon, I just play one on tv.) However, a good rule of thumb that a lot of people talk about is, the net person gets what they can. They are positioned in such an offensive place on the court, that even an imperfect volley has more positive effect for your team than a baseline person hitting a ball much further back in the court. Again, there are so many variables here, so I am not saying this is a hard and fast rule. However, when I play, if I am in the baseline position, I am encouraging my partner at the net to take everything they can, I don't want any hesitation. "You need to run all the way over into my alley on a short looper close to the net because you think you can hit the ball in a better or more offensive position than I could, GO FOR IT!"

It is my job at the baseline, to be ready if my partner misses the poach, decides not to poach, or to cross behind him if my partner has poached onto my side of the court. There doesn't have to be a ton of communication during a point to do this. I am not dissuading people from communicating, or trying advocate against communication, quite the opposite, I am advocating for meaningful, non distracting communication, and to lay down some basic ground rules for people so there is more understanding between partners.

Sort of unrelated, a huge benefit of an active net person is that your opponents start second guessing where to hit the ball. This has added benefits. Often, people don't do the calculation of the effect of an active net person on your opponent's unforced errors, because it is hard to make an exact correlation. I can't tell you how many times I have attempted to poach on a serve down the middle, say, to the deuce court (much easier to poach on middle serves than outside serves by the way) only to have the right handed receiver hit a "cross body" backhand down the line behind me and my partner say, "hey, watch the line." However, I have just invested in the future. We might have lost that point, but that receiver hit an incredible low percentage shot for a winner. The next time, they may hit it out, or, I may not be poaching and I have an easy volley. Getting your opponents to attempt low percentage shots and second guess where to hit it is a huge benefit of an active net person, even if that net person never hits a winner, just their activity is enough to win a few free points at crucial times.
Click to expand...

You’re missing the point of this thread. Cindy just makes these threads so everyone knows she’s better than all of her partners.
 
Nostradamus

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
Startzel said:
You’re missing the point of this thread. Cindy just makes these threads so everyone knows she’s better than all of her partners.
Click to expand...
you are wrong there. she is just saying Good Communication is KEY to playing better doubles and winning more.
 
Cindysphinx

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
stevenymets said:
One last point, then I will shut up and go away (yes, it's obvious that i have passion for this topic). @Cindysphinx, your partner was doubly wrong in your initial post. The minute the lob goes over his head, he needs to cross, instinctively, no hesitation. He doesn't even need to look at you. The baseline person will either hussle over and get it, then stay and cover their "new side" of the court, or the lob will be a winner and point over. The minute the net player realizes the ball is over his head, he needs to cross and cover the recently vacated side (by the baseline player) of the court. In @Cindysphinx example above, why on earth would her partner expect her to cover the lob, then run back to her side of the court?

Of course, this is different if the lob is cross court, a switch would not be necessary here, but quite often, the baseline player is opposite the opposing net player, and the lob down the line is a common play in doubles.
Click to expand...
Ha! No need to apologize, as AQ says. Part of the fun of doubles is sorting out (and arguing on-line about!) matters of strategy and positioning. I will add onto your post, though, that I should have called "Switch" once it was clear my partner wasn't going to an overhead as promised.

Anyway, there is a heated debate (in the ladies 4.0-3.0 world, anyway) about how to handle lobs. There is the "Deep Player Can See Everything And Should Call Switches" view and there is the "Net Player Calls Switches" view. I'll make the case for the latter based on what my pro has been banging into our heads for years:

1. The most advantageous result when a lob goes up is that the net player hits an overhead. Only the net player knows whether she is capable of doing that, so she should call mine or switch. If baseline player does it, baseliner will call her net partner off of many balls the net partner could hit, thereby relinquishing control of the net unnecessarily.

2. Having the net player decide works better once teams are advanced enough to play two-up effectively. In other words, if a team is accustomed to having the net player stay mute and the deep player call switches, that team will have to make a big adjustment when they learn to play two-up because they will have to start calling/covering the lobs over their head -- why not doing that start now?

3. The baseliner already has a job when the lob goes up. If the net player says mine, the baseliner needs to position appropriately -- often coming up to form a wall with the partner. The baseliner should not be running behind her partner for exactly the reasons why I got into trouble in the OP.

That said, these ideas only work if players actually call mine when they are going to hit their overhead.
 
Cindysphinx

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
OrangePower said:
Right. Calling "yours" (or "mine") is only helpful if the partner has enough time for that information to be useful. This is the case for lobs, and maybe the odd dropshot, but not for anything else. Calling "yours" or "mine" on an attempt to poach does not leave the partner with enough time to react if he/she was not already prepared to do so.
Click to expand...
Mmmmm, I don't agree on this.

We agree that calling yours on a lob or drop shot is helpful. That's easy.

But there is another situation in which it is helpful. I have seen many times when a slow- or medium-paced ball lands between two partners, and both of them hesitate and so no one plays the ball well or at all. And of course there are situations where there is a crazy scramble and the partners are running toward one another, and they don't play the ball because of the possibility of a collision.

In those situations, I might well call yours as soon as I know there is a chance both of us might want to play the ball. That relieves you of the hesitation, and it frees me to get out of your way and position effectively rather than trying to stay in position to hit in case my mute partner decides not to.

Now, maybe this kind of ball is not seen all that often at a higher level when the ball is moving a bit quicker. But it happens plenty at my level.
 
OrangePower

OrangePower

Legend
Cindysphinx said:
But there is another situation in which it is helpful. I have seen many times when a slow- or medium-paced ball lands between two partners, and both of them hesitate and so no one plays the ball well or at all. And of course there are situations where there is a crazy scramble and the partners are running toward one another, and they don't play the ball because of the possibility of a collision.

In those situations, I might well call yours as soon as I know there is a chance both of us might want to play the ball. That relieves you of the hesitation, and it frees me to get out of your way and position effectively rather than trying to stay in position to hit in case my mute partner decides not to.
Click to expand...
Fair enough, I can imagine this when a slower ball is coming down the middle and both player are back. Even then it is much preferable to have a "mine" call from one of the players rather than a "yours" call.

The "yours" call should be made when one player cannot make an effective play - e.g. when beaten by a lob or unable to chase down a drop shot. The "mine" call should be made when both are able to make the the play, in which case the player who recognizes it first makes the "mine" call. If both partners hesitate until eventually one calls "yours" that's just bad play by both IMO.

This should not happen when one player is at net or they are "staggered" (one more forward than the other), since in these cases the more forward player has dibs and the further back player needs to be ready to react if the forward player is not able to make the play. There is not enough time for "mine" or "yours" to be useful in these scenarios.

Just my opinion, YMMV.
 
Cindysphinx

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
OrangePower said:
Fair enough, I can imagine this when a slower ball is coming down the middle and both player are back. Even then it is much preferable to have a "mine" call from one of the players rather than a "yours" call.

The "yours" call should be made when one player cannot make an effective play - e.g. when beaten by a lob or unable to chase down a drop shot. The "mine" call should be made when both are able to make the the play, in which case the player who recognizes it first makes the "mine" call. If both partners hesitate until eventually one calls "yours" that's just bad play by both IMO.

This should not happen when one player is at net or they are "staggered" (one more forward than the other), since in these cases the more forward player has dibs and the further back player needs to be ready to react if the forward player is not able to make the play. There is not enough time for "mine" or "yours" to be useful in these scenarios.

Just my opinion, YMMV.
Click to expand...

Agreed on all counts. A "yours" call is pretty useless unless made very fast, and a player should know quickly when she has no play on the ball.

This whole mine/yours thing didn't really become crucial until my teammates and I were at 4.0 and were playing two at net most of the time (rather than one-up/one-back being the norm). At that point, the old expectations just didn't work. Like, who takes the middle ball is not an issue with one-up, one-back. But who covers the cross-court in a staggered net formation becomes a real nightmare if players aren't on the same page.
 
Angle Queen

Angle Queen

Professional
Cindysphinx said:
Ha! No need to apologize, as AQ says. Part of the fun of doubles is sorting out (and arguing on-line about!) matters of strategy and positioning. I will add onto your post, though, that I should have called "Switch" once it was clear my partner wasn't going to an overhead as promised.

Anyway, there is a heated debate (in the ladies 4.0-3.0 world, anyway) about how to handle lobs. There is the "Deep Player Can See Everything And Should Call Switches" view and there is the "Net Player Calls Switches" view. I'll make the case for the latter based on what my pro has been banging into our heads for years:

1. The most advantageous result when a lob goes up is that the net player hits an overhead. Only the net player knows whether she is capable of doing that, so she should call mine or switch. If baseline player does it, baseliner will call her net partner off of many balls the net partner could hit, thereby relinquishing control of the net unnecessarily.

2. Having the net player decide works better once teams are advanced enough to play two-up effectively. In other words, if a team is accustomed to having the net player stay mute and the deep player call switches, that team will have to make a big adjustment when they learn to play two-up because they will have to start calling/covering the lobs over their head -- why not doing that start now?

3. The baseliner already has a job when the lob goes up. If the net player says mine, the baseliner needs to position appropriately -- often coming up to form a wall with the partner. The baseliner should not be running behind her partner for exactly the reasons why I got into trouble in the OP.

That said, these ideas only work if players actually call mine when they are going to hit their overhead.
Click to expand...
Ha! I'll give that reply back but continue to politely contradict, openly admitting I'm in that ladies 4.0-3.0 world.

1. At "our" level, in ladies tennis mind you and only in the very best of circumstances, is an OH the "most advantageous." It's rarely a winning shot. Many are shanks, others seldom effective. All too often we've been taught to "hit it hard" when the far better play is to angle, ah hem, it off.

2. You speak of teams "advanced enough to play two-up effectively." That wasn't the scenario you initially described and the whole "advanced enough" aint necessarily 3.0-4.0 ladies tennis.

3. Exactly my point. If the net person "clearly" has it and "says" MINE...you wouldn't be making those "few steps to your right," just in case.

As for another FB analogy -- using your logic, it would be the Center making the hut-hut call because, quite literally, he's got his hands on the ball...when it's the QB who sees the entire defensive field (sorry to all those who played in the aptly named backfield). So I'll double/triple down on why the baseliner should make the call. If the net person makes the call, who is most likely to hear it? Themselves and their opponents. Not the baseliner, because they're behind them. It's why sometimes RBs miss the QBs call or check-off. Because it was in front on him.

And, as a total aside, I sometimes play with a hearing-impaired partner. Can't hear much on their right side. Part of why they play deuce and I play ad (even though it's not my strongest suit). Doesn't hurt that their FH, on a good day, is a Lethal Weapon. Even at Ladies 4.0. :)

Great topic. Glad to have you back on TT to discuss such.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Cindysphinx said:
Ha! No need to apologize, as AQ says. Part of the fun of doubles is sorting out (and arguing on-line about!) matters of strategy and positioning. I will add onto your post, though, that I should have called "Switch" once it was clear my partner wasn't going to an overhead as promised.

Anyway, there is a heated debate (in the ladies 4.0-3.0 world, anyway) about how to handle lobs. There is the "Deep Player Can See Everything And Should Call Switches" view and there is the "Net Player Calls Switches" view. I'll make the case for the latter based on what my pro has been banging into our heads for years:

1. The most advantageous result when a lob goes up is that the net player hits an overhead. Only the net player knows whether she is capable of doing that, so she should call mine or switch. If baseline player does it, baseliner will call her net partner off of many balls the net partner could hit, thereby relinquishing control of the net unnecessarily.

2. Having the net player decide works better once teams are advanced enough to play two-up effectively. In other words, if a team is accustomed to having the net player stay mute and the deep player call switches, that team will have to make a big adjustment when they learn to play two-up because they will have to start calling/covering the lobs over their head -- why not doing that start now?

3. The baseliner already has a job when the lob goes up. If the net player says mine, the baseliner needs to position appropriately -- often coming up to form a wall with the partner. The baseliner should not be running behind her partner for exactly the reasons why I got into trouble in the OP.

That said, these ideas only work if players actually call mine when they are going to hit their overhead.
Click to expand...

I think the "Deep Player Can See Everything And Should Call Switches" view makes less and less sense the better the level is. At a low level, OHs are very tough shots so having someone "direct traffic" might be very helpful. But the better one gets, the better one knows what OHs are reachable. If I'm the team getting lobbed, I want the net man, whether it's me or my partner, to take as many OHs as he's comfortable with. The only exception would be if he's having a bad OH day.

The problem I foresee for you is that you're now going to be playing with partners who might still be in the "Deep Player Can See Everything And Should Call Switches" mode and who might not be comfortable with her OHs. Sounds like you got some 'splainin' to do to your partners.
 
Cindysphinx

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
@AngleQueen (hey, it's nice to be back!!):

Maybe the issue here is that the 4.0-3.0 is too big a world for one approach to apply. As someone who spent time in all three worlds, I would say:

(1) You're right that 3.0s usually do not have a solid enough overhead for it to be a consistent offensive shot. Bouncing lobs, running around at the baseline and refusing to come in, switching -- these are common and even appropriate for 3.0 skill set.

At 3.5, though, the lob becomes a shot that is used to create time and chaos sufficient for a player to run to the net without having to hit an approach volley. The better teams I faced LOVED to do this to get two at net. They would lob the net player and get the other team running down lobs, preferably to the BH side. They would scurry in to net and wait for a ball they could dink or overhead.

At 4.0, the overhead/swinging volley should be a consistent offensive weapon. When I was working hard on my 4.0 game, we worked on overheads a lot, and we got to the point where we could consistently angle a medium-paced overhead into the alley. So I guess I would say that in the 3.0-4.0 world, the benefit of getting to the net is different, but I would say that at 3.5-4.0, the team that plays well from the net will usually win.

(2) My point is that getting into the habit of having the deep person call switches means this will be a habit you will have to break at 4.0 (or whatever level it is where players are comfortable playing two-up as the default, which for me was 4.0). Why learn it the wrong way when you can just as easily learn it the right way? After all, a player with a crap overhead knows she has a crap overhead and can be trusted to call a switch just as well as her partner at baseline.

One other psychological thing is at play when the deep person calls a switch on a ball the net player could overhead. If you call me off of an overhead that I feel capable of hitting, that makes it clear that you do not trust my overhead. It's a weird dynamic that gets set up, and an unnecessary one.

(3) Yes, some lobs will be coming right to my partner's waiting racket. In that case, I've been told to build a wall with my partner so we are not beaten by some sorry, dink reflex shot off of her overhead. But many, many lobs are close calls -- maybe my partner feels she can handle it, maybe she doesn't. Any time she wastes being mute and not saying "mine" or "switch" is time that I cannot use to position properly.

* * *

I also sometimes play socially with a partner who is deaf in one ear. We, um, struggle to position effectively. I think this would settle down with time if I played with her more, but right now I just don't know her tendencies or expectations, and we cannot communicate on the fly during points. That leaves me the option of trying to get on her good ear between points, and it is hard to have an effective conversation after a botched point, so I don't try. And it is just social tennis, so we can just laugh it off.

Um, football. You mentioned football. I, uh, don't know what to say . . . :)
 
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