Magnus Norman : Rafa and Roger are playing better now than 10 years ago

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
Come on seriously. He came back from 6 months off in 2017.

And he didn’t drop a set until the final of 2018, where he acknowledged that he mentally felt the strain of being the first player to win 20 slams.

Who did he face though prior to the finals? Chumps like Berdman. Chung too was already injured and gave up. As much as I loved Fed's 2017 renaissance, all it would have taken was for 15/16 Djoko to return to show the difference between post prime ATGs battling it out and either of these being pitted against a prime ATG. 2018 Fed gets pasted by Djokovic with more or less the same score as 2016. All the 'improvements' only helped him tee off against a Nadal persistently dropping his groundies short. They would not aid him against a Djokovic coming up with consistent depth and pushing him back.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Are you are aware that the speed of your opponents ball impacts the speed of your ball?

As I inferred the rallies in the Cilic match were much more ferocious than during the Roddick game 11 years earlier.

I think the ball was coming off his racket with more speed in 2018.

you are going round and round after this has been addressed with the example of AO 2007 final vs Gonzo when Gonzo was hitting lights out with his FH and hitting well with his BH (though not at Cilic level).

Federer had no problem hitting out vs Gonzo.

Take Safin matches or Soderling matches from 2004-09. (esp. 2004-09). He hit the ball significantly harder than in the AO 2018 final vs Cilic.

here's another clue : go and watch the Stan match in IW 17 final for an example of where there were absolutely ferocious rallies.
both guys were hitting the ball hard and federer was going toe to toe with Stan.

ditto with Delpo match in Shanghai 17 semi.

instead you come up with a match where federer cut down his pace (AO 18 final) and stubbornly stick with your delusions.

Stop deluding yourself to fit stuff with your "beliefs" and instead observe what the hell is actually going on.
 
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Deleted member 733170

Guest
Who does run like Chang these days, though? YoungDal could. ADM does. I have seen ADM cover lightning bolt groundies corner to corner. I haven't seen Fed do that even in his prime and these days a firmly struck ball into his forehand corner is usually not even pursued. Tell me, if movement is so incredible these days, how come the ungainly giraffe Kevin Anderson made the cut for the WTF this year? I like Kevin but WTF indeed.

Well I’ve been saying for a large part of this thread, power is a more valuable commodity than speed in the modern game. That’s why players are generally taller and stronger.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
you are going round and round after this has been addressed with the example of AO 2007 final vs Gonzo when Gonzo was hitting lights out with his FH and hitting well with his BH (though not at Cilic level).

Federer had no problem hitting out vs Gonzo.

Take Safin matches or Soderling matches from 2004-09. (esp. 2004-09)

here's another clue : go and watch the Stan match in IW 17 final for an example of where there were absolutely ferocious rallies.
both guys were hitting the ball hard and federer was going toe to toe with Stan.

ditto with Delpo match in Shanghai 17 semi.

instead you come up with a match where federer cut down his pace (AO 18 final) and stubbornly stick with your delusions.

Stop deluding yourself to fit stuff with your "beliefs" and instead observe what the hell is actually going on.

I swear Fed was possessed by the devil in that Gonzo match. Gonzo played incredible and Fed still straight setted him??
 
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Deleted member 733170

Guest
you are going round and round after this has been addressed with the example of AO 2007 final vs Gonzo when Gonzo was hitting lights out with his FH and hitting well with his BH (though not at Cilic level).

Federer had no problem hitting out vs Gonzo.

Take Safin matches or Soderling matches from 2004-09. (esp. 2004-09). He hit the ball significantly harder than in the AO 2018 final vs Cilic.

here's another clue : go and watch the Stan match in IW 17 final for an example of where there were absolutely ferocious rallies.
both guys were hitting the ball hard and federer was going toe to toe with Stan.

ditto with Delpo match in Shanghai 17 semi.

instead you come up with a match where federer cut down his pace (AO 18 final) and stubbornly stick with your delusions.

Stop deluding yourself to fit stuff with your "beliefs" and instead observe what the hell is actually going on.

Thanks for citing more matches which prove my point that they are hitting harder.

Must be cathartic for you to finally acknowledge that.
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
I swear Fed was possessed by the devil in that Gonzo match. Gonzo played incredible and Fed still straight setted him??

Fed was a little fortunate to straight set him (Gonzo had 40-15 on his own serve at 5-4), but yes he did straight set him. Who knows what happens if Gonzo wins that 1st set though.
 
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Deleted member 733170

Guest
That means you disagree with Norman when he says Fedal move better now. Gotcha!

Oh yeah I’m big enough to say that there has been some deterioration in his movement (though very marginal)

Though as I have said repeatedly the bigger racket has allowed him to hit with more power and technically he’s gotten better as witnessed by his ability to take the ball earlier. Of course maybe he could have always played like that, but he didn’t or didn’t need to. So yeah ultimately I think the games got tougher and better and full marks to Federer for being able to adapt and have the success he has over the last few years.

Same for Nadal he’s hitting with more power than ever off both wings. No doubt in my mind for a large part of this season that he was playing better than ever.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
Fed was a little fortunate to straight set him (Gonzo had 40-15 on his own serve at 5-4), but yes he did straight set him. Who knows what happens if Gonzo wins that 1st set though.

Fed was so audacious then. Facing set points, started coming in even on nothing and improvised like anything to dig out volleys. The cockiness of a champion at his zenith. In light of the many ******** nightmares we have endured since, the script could have easily gone awry then as you say. But it didn't and Fed made it look like a way more one sided match than it was.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Thanks for citing more matches which prove my point that they are hitting harder.

Must be cathartic for you to finally acknowledge that.

oh jeez, its like a torrent of delusions, one after the other. :rolleyes:
did you miss the mention of hard-hitting in the Safin/Soderling matches in 2004-09 ?

finally acknowledge that they are hitting harder ?
who is "they" ?

I said that fed was hitting it hard in that IW 17 final/17 shanghai semi. I didn't say he was hitting it harder than ever.

here's me commenting on the match here with some comments mentioning about the hitting in that IW 17 match

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?search/53762/
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
Oh yeah I’m big enough to say that there has been some deterioration in his movement (though very marginal)

Though as I have said repeatedly the bigger racket has allowed him to hit with more power and technically he’s gotten better as witnessed by his ability to take the ball earlier. Of course maybe he could have always played like that, but he didn’t or didn’t need to. So yeah ultimately I think the games got tougher and better and full marks to Federer for being able to adapt and have the success he has over the last few years.

He could always take the ball early. But when you are athlete enough to take it from a couple of feet behind the baseline and then really clout it, it makes more sense. Fed had so much more dynamic range in his prime. He could hit a forehand winner from way out of court if he had to and he could also do it on the half volley. Left opponents with not too many options. Realise that when he has to take everything on the rise, it makes his game more predictable and Djokovic feasts on this rhythm. Fed used to be able to deny this rhythm earlier. Reading between the lines, you're not saying something very different from what I have but by couching it in suitable adjectives, are trying to colour it to suit your views. Maybe if you come back to this discussion later and read it again, you might actually agree with it more. I understand that people find it difficult to change their views in the middle of a discussion; I am no different. I give you props for conceding some points along the way.
Same for Nadal he’s hitting with more power than ever off both wings. No doubt in my mind for a large part of this season that he was playing better than ever.

There isn't a large part of the season that he did play, other than clay. :p
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
true for most part. except the return.
He returned pretty well in the AO 2018 final.

The return advantage was mostly reflective was the serve advantage and Cilic UE periods. If Federer were actually returning well, he'd have been able to break Cilic without Mugrin's UE help, but that happened only twice (3rd set break, arguably 5th set 1st break). Would call that an average return performance (for Federer, that is), not good nor bad.
 
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Deleted member 307496

Guest
Well I’ve been saying for a large part of this thread, power is a more valuable commodity than speed in the modern game. That’s why players are generally taller and stronger.
:rolleyes:

Players are bigger and "stronger" (they aren't, it is the racquet technology) because the world's population is steadily growing taller. Or do you think we've been shrinking for hundreds of years?
 
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Deleted member 307496

Guest
Gonzalez AO 2007 > Federer AO 2011 ?!
Gonzalez was definitely better than Baghdatis, I know that much. The two shouldn't even be put in the same sentence but they are, repeatedly.

Gonzalez was a decent top 10-20 player before he broke through then. He actually had a career high of 7 and was ranked 9th, seeded 10th during that Australian Open.

Compare that to Baghdatis, who had never broken the top 50 in his career and never had a decent run in another major at all up until that point.

Gonzalez had made QF berths at Roland Garros and Wimbledon before then.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
He is human you are right......

Anyways, he follows the game up close for years as a coach and he has been a pro himself playing at the highest level. I think it's absolutely hilarious that I should listen to the experts in here and their ''eye tests'' instead of looking closer at what someone like Norman says.
On that basis, Wilander never makes ridiculous claims...:rolleyes:
 
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Deleted member 733170

Guest
That is no "escape clause".

That is a fact of life, but I didn't want to imply dishonesty when I don't have hard facts, that is why my further response put the prerequisites for fixing such when giving your answers, so that was the point of my post.

Seeing that you finally admit that indeed age takes its toll, now we are quibbling over what constitutes a sign that the age has taken its toll over Federer and Nadal.

To be honest, your sudden admission that "we may finally be seeing" those effects is not confidence-inspiring when it comes to the sincerity of your position here, since this year, is, IMO, equally impressive for both players, minus the injuries that they supposedly had.

I mean, Nadal won a Major, lost a SF to a very well playing Djokovic by the tiniest of margins, and supposedly was injured in the other two Majors.

He also sweeped the clay season, just like the previous year.

Federer won a Major, reached #1 in the world by winning Rotherdam, reached the final in IW and went out of Wimbledon after a supposed injury, after which struggled with his conditioning, not with his game.

I have a hard time distinguishing grossly between those two seasons when it comes to his game, although arguably he won less, especially if we put them in the grand scheme of things, and consider what Norman said.

In your view, which elements of their games have deteriorated between 2017 and 2018, speaking only of their game when they were healthy, not considering their injuries?

:cool:

It was a ‘maybe’ I’m not arrogant enough like some of you to say that he’s definitely worse. You came up with a convoluted question about my own sporting experience which as a run of the mill club player is irrelevant.

It’s been a bit lumpy this year. I took heart from the Bercy match which I thought was an extremely high level.

My personal view is that Federer has been so lauded and praised that when all the expectation is heaped on his shoulders it tightens him up. It the curse of being the greatest. When he came back in 2017 he was free and that’s why after Australia he played his most sublime tennis at IW.
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
Gonzalez was definitely better than Baghdatis, I know that much. The two shouldn't even be put in the same sentence but they are, repeatedly.

Gonzalez was a decent top 10-20 player before he broke through then. He actually had a career high of 7 and was ranked 9th, seeded 10th during that Australian Open.

Compare that to Baghdatis, who had never broken the top 50 in his career and never had a decent run in another major at all up until that point.

Gonzalez had made QF berths at Roland Garros and Wimbledon before then.

Check who you reply to, mate :eek:
I know all that stuff, Baghs was a mug at that level tbh but the others were not.

I was baiting abmk because he likes to insist peak fedr > peak djovak at the AO (even peak safin > peak djovak apparently, I like Marat but can't help being sceptical about that), and since 07 Gonzo fared better against 07 Fed and 11 Fed against 11 Djoker (at least Gonzo had SPs), it would then follow that 07 Gonzo > 11 Fed and would win a hypothetical h2H match between them. Somehow I struggle to believe it...
 
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Deleted member 733170

Guest
:rolleyes:

Players are bigger and "stronger" (they aren't, it is the racquet technology) because the world's population is steadily growing taller. Or do you think we've been shrinking for hundreds of years?

I think tennis players are growing at a faster rate than people in the so called West over the last 30 years.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
It was a ‘maybe’ I’m not arrogant enough like some of you to say that he’s definitely worse. You came up with a convoluted question about my own sporting experience which as a run of the mill club player is irrelevant.

It’s been a bit lumpy this year. I took heart from the Bercy match which I thought was an extremely high level.

My personal view is that Federer has been so lauded and praised that when all the expectation is heaped on his shoulders it tightens him up. It the curse of being the greatest. When he came back in 2017 he was free and that’s why after Australia he played his most sublime tennis at IW.

I do agree with that last part (again this is unlike his prime years); Fed doesn't play well under expectations anymore. Puts too much pressure on himself. Well, he IS half South African, ha ha.

But the field also adapts, given time. The neo backhand was new in 2017. Not so in 2018. I am watching all of Fed's backhand winners against Nadal in the 2017 AO final and Nadal was feeding him each time. It was so robotically ingrained in Nadal to go to his backhand that he couldn't change mid-match even with Fed punishing him for doing so. We don't know that Nadal has found an answer to that puzzle but the field as such learnt to go to Fed's forehand more than before and it's working. Now this as an option was certainly not on the table in Fed's prime years.
 
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Deleted member 733170

Guest
He could always take the ball early. But when you are athlete enough to take it from a couple of feet behind the baseline and then really clout it, it makes more sense. Fed had so much more dynamic range in his prime. He could hit a forehand winner from way out of court if he had to and he could also do it on the half volley. Left opponents with not too many options. Realise that when he has to take everything on the rise, it makes his game more predictable and Djokovic feasts on this rhythm. Fed used to be able to deny this rhythm earlier. Reading between the lines, you're not saying something very different from what I have but by couching it in suitable adjectives, are trying to colour it to suit your views. Maybe if you come back to this discussion later and read it again, you might actually agree with it more. I understand that people find it difficult to change their views in the middle of a discussion; I am no different. I give you props for conceding some points along the way.


There isn't a large part of the season that he did play, other than clay. :p

Well I did make a thread about just that, saying Nadal was better than ever on clay.

He bought it in to Wimbledon too, but Novak edged him on a match which could have gone either way.
 
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Deleted member 733170

Guest
Pay attention to Federer's slow movement to the FH side and the amount of weak/safe shots he makes even from neutral positions (none of that nonsense at his peak - BH could be peppered, FH never).

The question was comparing 17 to 18 and that was already an issue then and one that we have already discussed in this thread.
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
Fed was so audacious then. Facing set points, started coming in even on nothing and improvised like anything to dig out volleys. The cockiness of a champion at his zenith. In light of the many ******** nightmares we have endured since, the script could have easily gone awry then as you say. But it didn't and Fed made it look like a way more one sided match than it was.

He definitely knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was the best. He usually let people know it too. Either with the racket or the words. :D

I say who knows what would've happened if Gonzo won that first set, but truthfully, back then I believed Federer would find any way to win that match. Most likely in 4, but if not, then 5 sets. Just the previous year he was a point away from going a set and two breaks down against Baghdatis, but he won a long rally on BP and completely flipped the match around. Then when he won the 2nd 7-5 the next set was 6-0 and the 4th was 6-2. Federer in his prime just ran away with some of the biggest matches.

If he won or lost a close set, the next one wasn't often close. It was usually a bagel or a breadstick.
 

Jaitock1991

Hall of Fame
Simply described; a given athlete's level of skill at his sport is in general a direct output of the amount of practice/training/experience he has put into it. So therefore it makes perfect sense that the older you get, the more skilled you get. Of course it does, and imo this also applies to Roger and Rafa.

BUT. The same rule does not apply when looking at a player's physicality. In general an athlete is going to be at his physical best in his early to mid 20s before gradually declining when approaching his 30s. Roger and Rafa are no exceptions here either.

Conclusion: Skill wise and tennis IQ wise, Fedal are in all likelyhood better than 10 years ago, physically they most certainly are not. Their total ability is a combination of both, so it's very difficult to quantify where their total level is at today vs 10 years ago.
 
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Deleted member 733170

Guest
I do agree with that last part (again this is unlike his prime years); Fed doesn't play well under expectations anymore. Puts too much pressure on himself. Well, he IS half South African, ha ha.

But the field also adapts, given time. The neo backhand was new in 2017. Not so in 2018. I am watching all of Fed's backhand winners against Nadal in the 2017 AO final and Nadal was feeding him each time. It was so robotically ingrained in Nadal to go to his backhand that he couldn't change mid-match even with Fed punishing him for doing so. We don't know that Nadal has found an answer to that puzzle but the field as such learnt to go to Fed's forehand more than before and it's working. Now this as an option was certainly not on the table in Fed's prime years.

Well at least you agree that the game evolves!
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
Take a look at the backhand at 3:14. Nadal's forehand isn't very quick through the air on that occasion and also sits up. Just so much time for Fed to set it up and whack it, which he did and good for him. But Nadal shouldn't have been giving him so much time in the first place.


Note also that after Fed hit the slow slice to reset, Nadal had forehand DTL available and didn't go for it. Again, it was just deeply ingrained in him from years of playing Fed to go after the backhand no matter what. Paid a heavy price for it.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
Well at least you agree that the game evolves!

What's the implication then, that the game mysteriously stopped evolving for Fed to lap up slam after slam in 04-07? Can't have it both ways. If it is a continuum, then it ought to have been getting harder and harder for him to keep dominating slams off clay but he sustained it for 4 years straight. Hmm, maybe the game evolved in a different direction not necessarily revolving around Fed (who was largely a non factor at the slams after AO 2010 all the way till he broke the drought in 2017, with just the one Wimby in the middle) but to counter Nadalovic, more so Nadal. After Rosol, players thought a little low percentage power tennis could be good enough to hit Nadal off the court. Wawrinka also plays a sophisticated version of this sort of tennis. Maybe Fed simply caught the field off guard when he returned fresh and without baggage after many years. That effect was bound to wear off. I say it was already wearing off by Wimbledon 2017 but his grass edge over the field was so enormous he still won with ease. But his tennis already looked more careful and cautious and less free swinging.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
He definitely knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was the best. He usually let people know it too. Either with the racket or the words. :D

I say who knows what would've happened if Gonzo won that first set, but truthfully, back then I believed Federer would find any way to win that match. Most likely in 4, but if not, then 5 sets. Just the previous year he was a point away from going a set and two breaks down against Baghdatis, but he won a long rally on BP and completely flipped the match around. Then when he won the 2nd 7-5 the next set was 6-0 and the 4th was 6-2. Federer in his prime just ran away with some of the biggest matches.

If he won or lost a close set, the next one wasn't often close. It was usually a bagel or a breadstick.

Yup, that's how I remember it. There was a pattern often times. Fed would start slow and maybe even lose the first set. He would bounce back in the second and by the third he would be beating up the opponent so bad, the poor fellow would utterly give up in the fourth. The game seemed to be so much on Fed's racquet then.
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
Everyone is complaining about the weak competition of last year. If Fed was better than he ever was, then he would have done as well as in his best years. We know the best Fed wins 3 slams in a year.

Federer is not the same player he was 2004. He has added new elements to adapt and to be able to transition his game to match the game today and last couple of years.

Weak competition? Relative to what? It's not weak compared to 10++ years ago.

His USO run would have been very tough to win even if he was 100%. Del Potro and Nadal are very tough opponents.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
Well I did make a thread about just that, saying Nadal was better than ever on clay.

He bought it in to Wimbledon too, but Novak edged him on a match which could have gone either way.

Not buying about RG at least. He was so much more dominant against a legit opponent like Wawrinka last year. It felt like the best final that could be hoped for and was yet such an anti climax. Even though Nadal won comfortably on set score this year, he was in a lot of trouble against Thiem (no wonder Rosewall found it disappointing, lol).

At Wimby, he did play better than in many years previously but notice who else did. Kevin and Big John. Taller, harder? Nah, just unusually high bounce at Wimbledon. Isner's kickers were almost unplayable even for Kevin. Before you ask me how I know that, I have a cousin living in UK who also plays tennis at a decent rec level and he had been saying before Wimbledon itself that the summer was too hot this year and it was going to wreck Wimbledon. And so it did, albeit it gave us the match of the tournament/year in Nadalovic. He also called a Djokovic Wimbledon win even before Djokovic reached the Queens final.
 
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Deleted member 733170

Guest
What's the implication then, that the game mysteriously stopped evolving for Fed to lap up slam after slam in 04-07? Can't have it both ways. If it is a continuum, then it ought to have been getting harder and harder for him to keep dominating slams off clay but he sustained it for 4 years straight. Hmm, maybe the game evolved in a different direction not necessarily revolving around Fed (who was largely a non factor at the slams after AO 2010 all the way till he broke the drought in 2017, with just the one Wimby in the middle) but to counter Nadalovic, more so Nadal. After Rosol, players thought a little low percentage power tennis could be good enough to hit Nadal off the court. Wawrinka also plays a sophisticated version of this sort of tennis. Maybe Fed simply caught the field off guard when he returned fresh and without baggage after many years. That effect was bound to wear off. I say it was already wearing off by Wimbledon 2017 but his grass edge over the field was so enormous he still won with ease. But his tennis already looked more careful and cautious and less free swinging.

The implication is that Federer was relatively much better than the field in 2004-2007, yet even with less success he was in absolute terms better in more recent times.

I do agree though IW was the sweetest chapter in Federer’s late career Renaissance.

Yes I’ve said this many times the pressure has worked against him when we emerged from Sampras’ shadow and won 15.

There are many factors at play however, the racket, mental fatigue and let’s give credit where credit is due and praise his two great rivals who crashed his party with increasing regularity.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
The return advantage was mostly reflective was the serve advantage and Cilic UE periods. If Federer were actually returning well, he'd have been able to break Cilic without Mugrin's UE help, but that happened only twice (3rd set break, arguably 5th set 1st break). Would call that an average return performance (for Federer, that is), not good nor bad.

that's not the way to look at it at all, IMO. Just look at how federer returned.

Look at the 1st game for instance :

good serve out wide to the fh, unreturned
good serve out wide to the bh, fed blocks it back and keeps it in, Cilic hits a UE. Just because Cilic hit a UE doesn't mean that wasn't a good block return from fed.
good serve down the T to the bh. fed stretches, but can't put it back in play
fed returns the 2nd serve aggressively to get the error from Cilic. this is semi-forced.
fed hits the 2nd serve I/O for a winner
fed hits a slice return off the 2nd serve, UE from Cilic in the rally. average return.

that's a solid game as far as returns go from fed.

some of those UEs in those return games from cilic were because fed varied his slice and topspin/flat beautifully and the slice drew quite a few errors from Cilic -- as was the game plan from fed. that's smart returning.

Overall, fed's returning in the match was pretty good.
He got BP chance(s) in 11 service games of Cilic including 6 in the middle 3 sets where Cilic played well . Cilic was really clutch in saving the 4 of them that he did (3 in the 2nd set and 1 in the 4th set)
 
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Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
Federer is not the same player he was 2004. He has added new elements to adapt and to be able to transition his game to match the game today and last couple of years.

Weak competition? Relative to what? It's not weak compared to 10++ years ago.

His USO run would have been very tough to win even if he was 100%. Del Potro and Nadal are very tough opponents.

It's not? OK, goes through Hewitt-Grosjean-Roddick in Wimbledon 2004. In 2017, Berdman-Raonic-Cilic (who could have been tough but broke down and cried anyway). Exactly how was 2017 tougher than 2004? AO 2017 was really tough and he did brilliantly to get through that. But again, he came through Murrovic in 2012 Wimbledon. Also at 2008 USO. This kind of competition is hardly unprecedented for Fed.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
The implication is that Federer was relatively much better than the field in 2004-2007, yet even with less success he was in absolute terms better in more recent times.

I do agree though IW was the sweetest chapter in Federer’s late career Renaissance.

Yes I’ve said this many times the pressure has worked against him when we emerged from Sampras’ shadow and won 15.

There are many factors at play however, the racket, mental fatigue and let’s give credit where credit is due and praise his two great rivals who crashed his party with increasing regularity.

I give full credit to his two amazing rivals but this is not 2011 and one no longer needs Nadalovic to stop Fed at the slams or masters (it was Tsonga who beat him at Wimbledon even that year but moving on...). That is where claiming he is still playing better than in 2004-07 gets really disingenuous because there's way too much evidence to the contrary that doesn't even have anything to do with Nadalovic. There has been since 2007 itself. The losses to Canas in 2007 and the horrific one to Fish a year later were the sure markers of the beginning of the decline. Has nothing to do with Nadalovic. Nobody is trying to take credit away from Nadalovic, but it's also not Fed's fault that he is older than them and therefore their peaks didn't converge, especially so in Djokovic's case.
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
It's not? OK, goes through Hewitt-Grosjean-Roddick in Wimbledon 2004. In 2017, Berdman-Raonic-Cilic (who could have been tough but broke down and cried anyway). Exactly how was 2017 tougher than 2004? AO 2017 was really tough and he did brilliantly to get through that. But again, he came through Murrovic in 2012 Wimbledon. Also at 2008 USO. This kind of competition is hardly unprecedented for Fed.

You are not understanding anything right now. I'm not talking strictly about the opponents, rather about the level of tennis as a whole. A 10-15 year time frame is a lot and stuff changes.

If you take Fed of 2004 and everything he had learned in that time and put him against players who are training and playing tennis in 2017, does he beat Birdman-Raonic and Cilic on grass?
 
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Deleted member 733170

Guest
I give full credit to his two amazing rivals but this is not 2011 and one no longer needs Nadalovic to stop Fed at the slams or masters (it was Tsonga who beat him at Wimbledon even that year but moving on...). That is where claiming he is still playing better than in 2004-07 gets really disingenuous because there's way too much evidence to the contrary that doesn't even have anything to do with Nadalovic. There has been since 2007 itself. The losses to Canas in 2007 and the horrific one to Fish a year later were the sure markers of the beginning of the decline. Has nothing to do with Nadalovic. Nobody is trying to take credit away from Nadalovic, but it's also not Fed's fault that he is older than them and therefore their peaks didn't converge, especially so in Djokovic's case.

Now we are going full circle my friend and mine and Norman’s eye test and the difference the new racket made and what Federer himself has said about his game etc.

I’m going to bow out at this point, enjoy the rest of your weekend.
 
Oh yeah I’m big enough to say that there has been some deterioration in his movement (though very marginal)

Though as I have said repeatedly the bigger racket has allowed him to hit with more power and technically he’s gotten better as witnessed by his ability to take the ball earlier. Of course maybe he could have always played like that, but he didn’t or didn’t need to. So yeah ultimately I think the games got tougher and better and full marks to Federer for being able to adapt and have the success he has over the last few years.

Same for Nadal he’s hitting with more power than ever off both wings. No doubt in my mind for a large part of this season that he was playing better than ever.

No, Federer has had less power with the bigger racket, not more. His shots are slower and he hits with less spin.

And Federer always took the ball early. That has always been one of the defining characteristics of his game; he stands right on top of the baseline and takes it on the rise.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
So you really believe 2007 AO Gonzo would've beaten 2011 AO Federer? Come on.

Like I said, the margin is small b/w the 2 performances.

If we assume that they play as they did in the specific 2 matches, I'd say Gonzalez would have a small edge and the main variable is whether Gonzalez would be actually able to close it out.
esp. since fed uselessly reverted back to ballbashing vs djoko even though junkballing was working beautifully in the 2nd set.
(Edit : From what I've seen, I think Gonzo should be able to close it out, but its not a 100%, so giving some margin for that)

If we look at the whole tournaments also, AO 2007 Gonzo > AO 2011 fed.
Gonzo's semi vs Haas was a cut/level beyond anything AO 2011 fed produced (even the QF vs Stan). You'd need peak fedr to equal or surpass that.
QF vs Nadal was also better I think

Gonzo went 5 sets with a young delpo in 2R, yes, but fed also went 5 sets vs Simon in 2R.

Edit :
1. Gonzo's BH when he was playing well tends to get under-rated. It was a pretty good shot when he was in-form.
2. Also many don't realise how quick Gonzo was on court :
point starting at 6:42
point starting at 7:29

Looking at the highlights of that YEC 07 match, that was a fun match indeed. Brilliant shotmaking !
 
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abmk

Bionic Poster
You are not understanding anything right now. I'm not talking strictly about the opponents, rather about the level of tennis as a whole. A 10-15 year time frame is a lot and stuff changes.

yes, some things for the better, some things for the worse.
things don't always improve.

and nice try at dodging the opponents stuff. :D

If you take Fed of 2004 and everything he had learned in that time and put him against players who are training and playing tennis in 2017, does he beat Birdman-Raonic and Cilic on grass?

without a shadow of doubt.
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
@abmk Well I don't see Gonzalez having the nerve to win a tight match against an ATG on the grand stage (no, YEC RR isn't exactly Slam SF/F level). He wasn't a serial choker like Cilic but not known for mental strength either and pretty volatile. So I'm quite confident saying Federer had a better chance than Gonzalez hypothetically would, because he can be trusted better in the heat of battle, even if Gonzo retained a slightly better form prior.
 
The question was comparing 17 to 18 and that was already an issue then and one that we have already discussed in this thread.

IMO, that observation is valid for both 2017 and 2018, so if that is so Norman is saying that Federer is playing better with half a FH.

Quite the compliment, but I don't think that that is true.

:cool:
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
@abmk Well I don't see Gonzalez having the nerve to win a tight match against an ATG on the grand stage (no, YEC RR isn't exactly Slam SF/F level). He wasn't a serial choker like Cilic but not known for mental strength either and pretty volatile. So I'm quite confident saying Federer had a better chance than Gonzalez hypothetically would, because he can be trusted better in the heat of battle, even if Gonzo retained a slightly better form prior.

I think the difference in form was more than slight if we take their 2 matches previous (AO 2007 final/AO 2011 semi).
Gonzo vs Haas was a cut above Fed vs Stan
Gonzo vs Nadal was well above Fed vs Robredo

Your point about trusting fed more in general is fine, but lets look at what actually happened in the AO 11 semi - played a poor 1st set TB and quite a bit of choking in the 2nd set.

Also, in a tournament like AO 07 when a player is in the zone like Gonzalez was, they don't wobble that easily mentally.
If it was prime fed who had the aura, though not at his best, like say AO 2006, your point about Gonzalez's nerve would come more into the picture.
Not as much vs 2011 AO Fed.
 
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