How Will This Be Decided?

KickVicious · May 4, 2019

Going into the last weekend of a USTA flight, the 2nd and 3rd place teams were set to face off and all other matches finished. The 1st screen shot shows standings going into it.

The last place team then decides to forfeit and default all 3 courts. After the defaults are entered, the 2nd place team moves up as illustrated in the 2nd screen shot.

Here’s where it gets interesting. The last place team defaulted 3 courts to the 1st place team also (including one double default), with their final head to head being 1-2. They were 0-2 going into the last match and the 2nd place team was 1-2 vs. the 1st place team (but the matches were close). So each team got 3 defaults but only one got an all-match default win. I’m trying to interpret the rules but have no idea how this plays out. Not sure if it’s relevant, but this last match was rescheduled from early in the season.

Any ideas?

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NumbersGuy · May 4, 2019

As soon as the last place team did their first team default (I assume this was an earlier default to the first place team), they’re out of the league. No future matches, such as their latest team default, should have taken place let alone counted. That’s where you start. Additionally, none of their matches in the robin (looks like you have a triple round robin) in which they had their first team default should have counted. Hard to tell from the facts presented, but probably the first robin counts, and in the second and third robins only the matches between the other two team count. Then calculate standings.

KickVicious · May 4, 2019

NumbersGuy said:
As soon as the last place team did their first team default (I assume this was an earlier default to the first place team), they’re out of the league. No future matches, such as their latest team default, should have taken place let alone counted. That’s where you start. Additionally, none of their matches in the robin (looks like you have a triple round robin) in which they had their first team default should have counted. Hard to tell from the facts presented, but probably the first robin counts, and in the second and third robins only the matches between the other two team count. Then calculate standings.

So the first team default was the very last match of the flight against the 2nd place team. The 3rd place team’s defaults to the other team were one court in each of their 3 matches played. Key point is that they played: 2 defaults to the 1st place team and 1 all court default when neither team has enough players to play one court (out of 3). So the first and second place teams both got 3 total defaults but the former actually played all their head to head matches whereas the latter had one match not played due to the all-courts match default. The team that defaulted scored their only match win vs. the first place (prior to the last match) team.

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WhiteOut · May 4, 2019

The way I've always understood it, once a double-default occurs (total team default/all courts), all of that team's matches are vacated...does not matter when they occurred. it's as if they were never in the flight at all. i'm willing to bet my lunch money this correct. So ultimately what will be counted is the matches played by the other two teams against one another, so none of the single-court defaults of third team matter. this scenario is actually easier to deal with since there are only three teams. the real fun begins when there are 8-10 teams in a flight, and 3-4 of them are within a match of first place...

and yes, I've seen a 2nd and 3rd place team leap-frog to first at the end of the session because of this. this is one reason why it is so egregious to default courts, the primary being, it deprives others of the opportunity to play, which is why they paid the registration fee and blocked the dates out in their calendars in the first place...defaulting can have really bad effects well beyond the actual match that is being defaulted.

OnTheLine · May 4, 2019

WhiteOut said:
The way I've always understood it, once a double-default occurs (total team default/all courts), all of that team's matches are vacated...does not matter when they occurred. it's as if they were never in the flight at all. i'm willing to bet my lunch money this correct. So ultimately what will be counted is the matches played by the other two teams against one another, so none of the single-court defaults of third team matter. this scenario is actually easier to deal with since there are only three teams. the real fun begins when there are 8-10 teams in a flight, and 3-4 of them are within a match of first place...

and yes, I've seen a 2nd and 3rd place team leap-frog to first at the end of the session because of this. this is one reason why it is so egregious to default courts, the primary being, it deprives others of the opportunity to play, which is why they paid the registration fee and blocked the dates out in their calendars in the first place...defaulting can have really bad effects well beyond the actual match that is being defaulted.

Yup. Happened in our mixed flight last year .... once the total team default happened, all of that team's matches were reversed to 6-0 losses .. in that way no team benefited any more than another in the final standings.

I am certain your LLC will be updating that soon. And the double-default will likely no longer be an issue for the #1 team ....

I also agree on the importance of avoiding defaults. As a captain I went 9 league seasons until having to offer a default ... and due to miserable circumstances (illnesses, injuries and a sudden family death)0 had to default 2 courts this 18+ season. Felt absolutely terrible about it but nothing that I could do about it.

NumbersGuy · May 5, 2019

Actually it's a Section option exactly how to handle this, so you'd have to find your Section's rules. A more legible version of your District rules would help us figure out what your District says, but could still be superseded by Section rules.

J_R_B · May 6, 2019

NumbersGuy said:
Actually it's a Section option exactly how to handle this, so you'd have to find your Section's rules. A more legible version of your District rules would help us figure out what your District says, but could still be superseded by Section rules.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/ustaassets/assets/616/15/usta_cdta_league_r_p_revised_10-15-2018_final.pdf

This is the applicable passage here:

D. When a Team Match Default is found to affect the league standings, at the end of the season the ALC will perform an evaluation and make any adjustments determined appropriate.

So, in this district, they are basically saying it's up to the ALC, which is generally not a good thing when that person will have to make a ruling that will by necessity favor one team over another.

kevrol · May 6, 2019

J_R_B said:
So, in this district, they are basically saying it's up to the ALC, which is generally not a good thing when that person will have to make a ruling that will by necessity favor one team over another.

Hope the OP is buddies with the League Coordinator.

KickVicious · May 6, 2019

J_R_B said:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/ustaassets/assets/616/15/usta_cdta_league_r_p_revised_10-15-2018_final.pdf

This is the applicable passage here:

So, in this district, they are basically saying it's up to the ALC, which is generally not a good thing when that person will have to make a ruling that will by necessity favor one team over another.

It’s a shame really. It was so tight going in. Either way it turns out, the other team can rightfully say they got shafted.

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Justagamefool · May 6, 2019

In Chicago, it will come down to the district rules. They do not remove a team from the standings. Their league chair and coordinator will be the ones to ask.

J_R_B · May 7, 2019

KickVicious said:
It’s a shame really. It was so tight going in. Either way it turns out, the other team can rightfully say they got shafted.

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IMO, the most fair way to settle this would be to schedule a flight playoff between the two teams so that at least it's settled on the court.

heninfan99 · May 7, 2019

OnTheLine said:
Yup. Happened in our mixed flight last year .... once the total team default happened, all of that team's matches were reversed to 6-0 losses .. in that way no team benefited any more than another in the final standings.

I am certain your LLC will be updating that soon. And the double-default will likely no longer be an issue for the #1 team ....

I also agree on the importance of avoiding defaults. As a captain I went 9 league seasons until having to offer a default ... and due to miserable circumstances (illnesses, injuries and a sudden family death)0 had to default 2 courts this 18+ season. Felt absolutely terrible about it but nothing that I could do about it.

What would happened if they fielded a single court?

OnTheLine · May 7, 2019

heninfan99 said:
What would happened if they fielded a single court?

Our local rules require a team to field 50% of the courts .... so in mixed 1 wouldn't cut it I would guess

catfish · May 7, 2019

J_R_B said:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/ustaassets/assets/616/15/usta_cdta_league_r_p_revised_10-15-2018_final.pdf

This is the applicable passage here:

So, in this district, they are basically saying it's up to the ALC, which is generally not a good thing when that person will have to make a ruling that will by necessity favor one team over another.

I think you are mis-interpreting the ALC role. The ALC doesn't make a ruling based on who he or she prefers. There is a method for ALC's to follow. In order to certify a league or level winner for post season play, ALC's always have to check for full team defaults. If all teams in contention (with a mathematical chance to advance) have played the defaulting team, those matches stand as played. But, if the full team default does impact standings for the teams in contention, the ALC's have to go into TennisLink and remove the defaulting team from the overall standings. However, the individual matches remain in TennisLink.

KickVicious · Sep 19, 2019

J_R_B said:
IMO, the most fair way to settle this would be to schedule a flight playoff between the two teams so that at least it's settled on the court.

Just dawned on me that I never provided an update. After almost a month of waiting, players were told that the ALC ruled that the team in first place going into the final match would advance. There were only 3 matches between the 2 teams with 2 being at the advancing team's club and 1 being at the 2nd place team's. One final head to head would have been nice - if tied, let sets and games be the deciding factor. Shame it ended that way... maybe the advancing team wins another flight for same year (fall) and chooses that team to advance. Doubtful though.

How Will This Be Decided?

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