Breakpointerer
Legend
The tournament was viewed as more open going in due to Nadal's losses in the run up, but he was still the favourite.
Nadal looks scary
- Thread starter Born Again
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Sport
G.O.A.T.
No, he didn't. Betting odds had Nadal as the favorite. Based on what was Djokovic the favorite actually?
Nadal is 6-1 against Djokovic at RG and has won 12 RG, while Djokovic only 1. Nadal also destroyed Djokovic in Rome with a "bagel" (losing a set 0-6, something Djokovic never did to Nadal).
No way Djokovic was favorite over Nadal to win RG. When Nadal is playing good on clay, he depends of himself, exclusively. Djokovic has never defeated a well-playing Nadal at RG, and Nadal was already playing good in Rome, defeating all his opponents with a "bagel" except Tsitsipas.
If Djokovic was unable to defeat Thiem, let alone Nadal who destroyed Thiem in the final. Djokovic was playing 100% focused and in non-windy conditions in the second day of the SF and still couldn't defeat Thiem.
(You can argue that Djokovic was tired in the Rome final, just like you can argue that Nadal lacked competitive rhytm in the AO final). But the fact is, after the 2019 AO final, Djokovic is the ABSOLUTE favorite for the AO 2020. Analogously, Nadal was already the favorite for RG, but after the Rome 2019 final, Nadal was the ABSOLUTE favorite for RG 2019.
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I agree
. So did most of the forum. I posted the RG thread in an answer to StrongRule.StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
Depends on Nadal's level. Djokovic never beat a decent or better Nadal in RG. The problem is that during most of 2019 clay season Nadal was playing at his 2015 level. But in RG itself he played well.
irishnadalfan1983
Hall of Fame
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Deleted member 77403
Guest
We shall have to agree to disagree
You disagree his best is not better than Federer and Nadal's best on this grass court? OK. I guess you shouldn't be using words like Very Confident to describe only Nole fans. I can say the same about you here. But happy to agree to disagree with you here.
There is noone stopping Nole now (unfortunately). Serve is working, return is working, confidence is there. Add to it a super-easy draw and Fedal possibly facing each other (not an excuse, Nole would be clear fav with any draw).We shall have to agree to disagree
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Deleted member 77403
Guest
True and Nadal hasn't beaten a healthy Djokovic at Wimbledon up until now either.
irishnadalfan1983
Hall of Fame
You disagree his best is not better than Federer and Nadal's best on this grass court? OK. I guess you shouldn't be using words like Very Confident to describe only Nole fans. I can say the same about you here. But happy to agree to disagree with you here.
I suppose I don’t know - I don’t think anyone definitely can say.....It’s just an easy out I suppose - if Nole were to lose then some can simply say ‘he wasn’t at his best’....My feeling is not much between the 3 on grass at the moment - last years semi was a few points....Anyway we are both agreed Nole is favourite right now....
I just checked, Nole-Rafa off-clay is 14-2 (2-0 on grass) sinse 2011, i didnt know it was that lopsided
augustobt
Legend
Nope. Betting ods for RG had Nadal favorite to win it outright because he had an easier path to the final - specially drawing Federer (1.14 vs 6 odds, please) in the semis, plus all of the other circumstances that would elevate him as a paper natural favorite there. However, odds for the final would've been close. If Djokovic had any other opponent on his semis, let me say A. Zverev, I think the odds for the actual final would be almost even for them.
For me Novak was the favorite because Nadal can't beat him in majors for 5 years and Nadal even ran away from him in 2016. Nole has the mental edge, specially after Wimbledon of last year and this year's trashing in Melbourne. Both him and Rafa gets extra motivated when facing each other, but this was still clay, and still Nadal's pet tournament. I think that's one final that tennis really missed. It would've been better if Nadal and Thiem was the semi-final and Nadal vs Djokovic as the final.
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Deleted member 77403
Guest
I think we know if Djokovic is playing his best and he loses. It happened at AO 2014 as a prime example. It does happen.
And that easy way gets used by all fan bases, you know it has explained a lot of Nadal loses also.
Sport
G.O.A.T.
I agree with you that Djokovic's best is not superior to Federer's best or Nadal's best on grass. AT THE MOMENT, Djokovic is clearly superior to Federer in level. Not sure on whether he is superior to current Nadal though, as last year Djokovic almost lost on indoor conditions (which favor his playstyle) and Nadal is playing better at Wimbledon 2019. After the 2018 experience, Nadal has recovered his confidence on grass (after losing 5 years in a row in the first week of Wimbledon).We shall have to agree to disagree
Still, I believe Federer can win Wimbledon 2019 defeating both Nadal and Djokovic, provided that his serve is spot on.
junior74
Talk Tennis Guru
I just checked, Nole-Rafa off-clay is 14-2 (2-0 on grass) sinse 2011, i didnt know it was that lopsided
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Deleted member 77403
Guest
I just checked, Nole-Rafa off-clay is 14-2 (2-0 on grass) sinse 2011, i didnt know it was that lopsided
Both two matches happened within a period of two months. So in a span of what? 8 and half years, only for a period of two months was Nadal able to beat Djokovic off clay.
irishnadalfan1983
Hall of Fame
Agreed - all fan bases use these excuses.....I am only disagreeing with ‘if Nole is at his best then he wins’ - that may happen but I wouldn’t agree with such a dogmatic statement....If all 3 are at their best then I’m not sure....
Badabing888
Hall of Fame
Even if Federer’s serve is spot on It’s Novak’s return, which has done the most damage in the last two finals they met.; especially on Roger’s second serve, which in turn put pressure on Roger’s first serve. Pressure on Roger’s service games meant he couldn’t relax and attack Novak’s serve. Which is why as a Federer fan I would not look forward to facing Novak again in the final after 2014 and 2015.
irishnadalfan1983
Hall of Fame
Yeah I kind of feel if Fed gets his serve spot on then he beats both....
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Deleted member 77403
Guest
Well I am going on recent Fedal history at Wimbledon. It is 4-1 since 2011. Since all these matches happened in the semis or finals, it is clear to me that Djokovic brings his A game when he plays Fedal and if he does, they normally lose. I will stick with that.
This isn't 2003-2007 Federer and this isn't 2007-2011 Nadal we are talking about.
Djokovic has four out of the last eight Wimbledon titles. That is half of them going through Fedal every single time. Are you telling they were not playing their best at that current time of their careers?
irishnadalfan1983
Hall of Fame
I don’t think Rafa played his best at Wimbledon for about 5 years from 2012 to 2017.....However Nole won - simple as that....
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Deleted member 77403
Guest
Agree...but you show 2012-2017, though I will disagree somewhat with 2017, he was very unlucky in that match with Muller.
What happened to him in 2011 and 2018 when he was playing the best he could for that stage in his career? Who beat him those two years?
The same with Federer, who played good enough tennis to win Wimbledon 2014 and 2015 had he not played Djokovic in the final.
I am not being overly confident here, I am just not falsely trying to play down Novak's chances so the loss is easier to handle. The history and record speaks for itself, in recent years, his best is better than everyone else, Fedal included. That is not a dig at them, in fact it is a compliment that someone who had his grass peak from 03-07 and someone who had it from 07-11 are still be the big contenders and they DO have a chance to beat Djokovic here, IF his level is not where it should be.
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StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
I could never understand why Djokovic fans give credit to Wawrinka for AO 2014 but not for RG 2015.
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Deleted member 77403
Guest
Wawrinka gets credit for both matches IMO. The only one I don't really put too much weight into is the USO 2016 final.
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
Why? Wawrinka had to be extremely clutch to win it, even though Djokovic wasn't at his best.
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Deleted member 77403
Guest
Do you put a lot into the AO 2019 win that Djokovic had over Nadal?
junior74
Talk Tennis Guru
irishnadalfan1983
Hall of Fame
Let’s enjoy the week ahead
I keep saying to the lads at my tennis club - I CANNOT believe in summer 2019 we are still looking at the big 3 and maybe the gap is wider than ever now!!!
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Deleted member 77403
Guest
Let’s enjoy the week ahead
Well said, and wholeheartedly agree.
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
Come on, Djokovic wasn't missing every third shot in USO 2016 final, so not sure it is a good comparison. I said he wasn't at his best, but it's not on the same level. The last slam final where Djokovic played pretty much as bad as Nadal did in AO this year was Wimbledon 2013. (though IMO Djokovic had his best run to Wimbledon final that year, but the win over a very strong Del Potro took too much from him)
augustobt
Legend
I like Dan Evans, hahaha. I think he has some solid ground game, he's an interesting player to watch but seems like a complete head case.Stan was not at his best at US16 either. Dan Evans had matchpoint... Evans...
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Deleted member 77403
Guest
No. I disagree here.
Firstly about Wimbledon 2013, he played well that tournament, it was that his match with Del Potro took a lot out of him and he was somewhat flat.
As for USO 2016, Djokovic benefited from a weak draw and players withdrawing and giving walkovers left right and center. Even I was fooled, the same way Nadal fans got fooled at AO 2019 by what they thought was great tennis from Nadal. The moment Djokovic ran into a decent player, he couldn't handle it for more than one hour. He had no business making the final there that year and I admit he would have stolen that USO 2016 had he won. If you were here you would have seen the threads saying it would be daylight robbery if Novak won that event.
Wawrinka won it, but sorry, I will not put it in the same league as the AO and RG wins.
augustobt
Legend
Both semis were really entertaining, but Djoko-Delpo was a huge toll for Novak.
junior74
Talk Tennis Guru
D
Deleted member 77403
Guest
Yes, he went over five hours, getting absolutely pummelled by that Del Potro forehand. He got knocked over a few times also. He was done after that.
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Deleted member 77403
Guest
I like Evans, too!
He brings something else to the table
That look in his eyes shows he's hit a few lines in his time, and I am not talking about the ones on the court.
augustobt
Legend
If only he won Wimbledon and celebrated it like Robbie Fowler...
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
Djokovic was very good in Wimbledon 2013 only until the final. In the final itself he played shockingly bad by his standards. A good Djokovic is not losing a slam final to Murray in straight sets.
Yes, Djokovic was extremely lucky with the draw in USO 2016, that is a fact. But still, I don't think his game can be compared to Nadal's AO 2019 final. And he would have probably won the tournament against any other opponent-he was never going to lose the final to Murray or Nishikori. Though it doesn't say much about the level, more about the level of competition. Nadal would have probably won AO 2019 too against any other opponent in the final. But it was proved many times that if there is an unlucky player at a tournament then it is Nadal in AO.
augustobt
Legend
He was gassed out but Andy simply outplayed him. It was meant to be.
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Deleted member 77403
Guest
The point I am making regarding AO 2019 is the familiarity that both got so far due to a weak draw, neither should have been there if they played proper competition along the way. This is why I don't put too much into Djokovic's win over Nadal at AO 2019, I could very easily say Nadal was playing his best and simply got crushed, but he wasn't. Novak did enough to put him out of his misery.
The reason why Novak managed to keep it a bit more contested against Stan at USO 2016 was because Stan admitted he was crazy nervous and was quite passive at the start. As soon as he settled in, Novak was out of his depth.
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
This is exactly what is coming from some Djokovic fans on Russian Eurosport forum. Good to see that the fans here are much more reasonable, from all fanbases.
Towser83
G.O.A.T.
Federer wasnt at his peak but he still won against an opponent who had spent less time out of the game, had NOT had surgery like he had and was 30 years old. You've had said many times, 30 is still prime. You know you said tbis when you wanted to throw out any excuses for Fed losing at around 30 to Nadal and Djokovic.
Nadal faced an opponent tbis year who was only one year younger than himself, not 5 years younger. Also the fact that Nadal could make the final without losing a set with no match play for months would seemingly prove even more he was his absolute peak since he had only his playing ability to rely on, not any momentum of match wins. I mean was he really his peak? No. But fed at Wimbledon 2008 certainly wasnt either. But you used the no sets dropped argument to try and prove Nadal is the best in grass and then try and excuse Nadal getting taken down in straights at the AO
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Deleted member 77403
Guest
That is the difference between a Nadal hater and a Djokovic fan. A Djokovic fan understands that Novak was the rightful winner, but also understands that Nadal wasn't anywhere close to his best. It was a mismatch, that only looked like a big match because of the names and the fact Nadal got lucky with a weak draw. A Nadal hater on the other hand would gloat to rub into Nadal's fans faces, and is more satisfied by the Nadal loss than the Djokovic win.
I don't put too much weight into this match. Nadal was totally off.
I think its a bit strange that Djokovic so clearly sees Nadal as his biggest rival when its 14-2 off-clay sinse 2011, and he faced Federer more than Nadal and their H2H is more even. Off course you cant count out clay, but its 2 months a year.
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Deleted member 77403
Guest
I think it is more to do with the clay, because that is the one place where Nadal is still managing to hold Djokovic off on.
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
To be fair Djokovic would have probably won anyway. Nadal would need to be in his AO 2009 form to have a real chance.
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Deleted member 77403
Guest
Djokovic would have probably won, but against an inform Nadal it would have been a battle. Nadal before that match had never lost a slam final in straight sets, even when he was injured in AO 2014, he still managed to win a set. That should be an indication of just how bad his real level was. His level from 09 or 12 would be good to give another classic.
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
Yes, and I wasn't really upset about this loss. I knew Nadal was not going to win. It is AO 2012, 2014 and 2017 in which he had some real chances and lost. Those are much harder to take.
jackdaw
Rookie
Book makers are completely wrong.
I would rate it as
Nadal 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999%
Djokovic + Federer - a toss op between the tiny % left....
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Deleted member 77403
Guest
Exactly. I value the 2012 win a lot more, because Djokovic beat in form Murray and Nadal back to back. Yes, at the end of the day, a slam is a slam, just some slams feel more special than others. I knew Djokovic was beating Nadal easily this year, so while I was happy for the win, I wasn't deluded by Nadal's performance either. It wasn't the real Nadal.
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