Meldonium aside, where does Maria Sharapova rank in open era?

Where does Sharapova rank in open era?

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  • Poll closed .
clout

clout

Hall of Fame
I know the Meldonium scandal is a black cloud over her career, but Meldonium actually isn't a PED and wasn’t officially a banned substance for about 99% of the time she was using it so I don't think it warrants the same "disgrace" that the likes of Lance Armstrong, Ben Johnson, Barry Bonds, and Roger Clemens fall under. With that aside, she's now 32, can't stay healthy, and has plummeted down the rankings with no rise in sight.

However, she does own 5 majors (10 finals, 20 semis and 197 match wins), career grand slam, 36 overall titles, 14 Masters titles, 1 WTF, Olympic silver medal, career win percentage of 80%, 98 wins over top 10 players, 272 wins over players who've been in the top 10, 21 weeks at number one, and is the only player besides Graf, Navratilova, and Evert to win at least 1 title in 13 straight seasons. Biggest knock on her is that she never finished any year at number one, and she didn't really have the peak or consistency that other players her level had (i.e. she never defended a title or won multiple slams in a single season).

In OE, I'd rank Steffi, Serena, Navratilova, Evert, Seles, Court, King, Henin, Venus, Hingis and Goolagong over her. It's a toss up between her, Davenport, and Clijsters so she's probably somewhere 12-14 (I have her solidly ahead of players like Vicario and Mandlikova)

Discuss.
 
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Chadalina

Guest
clout said:
I know the Meldonium scandal is a black cloud over her career, but Meldonium actually isn't a PED and was it banned for 99% of the time she used it so I don't think it warrants the same "disgrace" that the likes of Lance Armstrong, Ben Johnson, Barry Bonds, and Roger Clemens fall under. With that aside, she's now 32, can't stay healthy, and has plummeted down the rankings with no rise in sight.

However, she does own 5 majors (10 finals, 20 semis and 197 match wins), career grand slam, 36 overall titles, 14 Masters titles, 1 WTF, Olympic silver medal, career win percentage of 80%, 98 wins over top 10 players, 272 wins over players who've been in the top 10, 21 weeks at number one, and is the only player besides Graf, Navratilova, and Evert to win at least 1 title in 13 straight seasons. Biggest knock on her is that she never finished any year at number one, and she didn't really have the peak or consistency that other players her level had (i.e. she never defended a title or won multiple slams in a single season).

In OE, I'd rank Steffi, Serena, Navratilova, Evert, Seles, Court, King, Henin, Venus, Hingis and Goolagong over her. It's a toss up between her, Davenport, and Clijsters so she's probably somewhere 12-14 (I have her solidly ahead of

Discuss.
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Do you put court and goolagong in the open era?

I have her at like 8-10 (if not). She won every grandslam tournament (and the wtf). I forget how many other women did it.

Melo isnt really a ped, its over the counter since 1971. Wada never showed it was, only that alot of people took it (from same area)
 
O

octogon

Hall of Fame
Of course Meldonium is a PED. lol!

It's very commonly said that the most sophisticated dopers are more than a decade ahead of the testers.

So dopers and their doctors/lab people are finding "legal" drugs with performance enhancing capabilities that testers or anti-doping organisations are not even aware of yet. That's what Meldonium is. A PED that anti-doping organisations didn't fully realise had the effects of one....but Sharapovas Russian doctors did.

Sharapova was a doper a decade ahead of the system, which happens a lot. Her drug of choice got discovered as a PED late in the game, but it's absolutely part of her legacy as a player now.

It's tough to rank her. She was on Meldonium for more than a decade. Most of her success came while on the drug, which gave her the limitless stamina that was claimed to come from her "battlers mentality". Off the Meldonium, she's basically finished as a top player.
 
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Nostradamus

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
octogon said:
Of course Meldonium is a PED. lol!

It's very commonly said that the most sophisticated dopers are more than a decade ahead of the testers.

So dopers and their doctors/lab people are finding "legal" drugs with performance enhancing capabilities that testers or anti-doping organisations are not even aware of yet. That's what Meldonium is. A PED that anti-doping organisations didn't fully realise had the effects of one....but Sharapovas Russian doctors did.

Sharapova was a doper a decade ahead of the system, which happens a lot.

It's tough to rank her. She was on Meldonium for more than a decade. Most of her success came while on the drug, which gave her the limitless stamina that was claimed to come from her "battlers mentality". Off the Meldonium, she's basically finished as a top player.
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Not really. Meldonium is thought to be maybe performance enhancing but it has never been proven thru objective data. There is no study to show that Before and After meldon effects on performance showing definite significant improvement in performance. There is NO data on that.
 
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octogon

Hall of Fame
Nostradamus said:
Not really. Meldonium is thought to be maybe performance enhancing but it has never been proven thru objective data. There is no study to show that Before and After meldon effects on performance showing definite significant improvement in performance. There is NO data on that.
Click to expand...

It's now banned by most sports governing bodies because it's considered a performance enhancer. If you want to minimise that, that's your lookout.
 
Nostradamus

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
octogon said:
It's now banned by most sports governing bodies because it's considered a performance enhancer. If you want to minimise that, that's your lookout.
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they are dummy idiots. I am 100 X smarter they are. they will ban caffeine if they could
 
C

Chadalina

Guest
octogon said:
Sharapova was a doper a decade ahead of the system
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It was next to the asprin at your local europeon drug store in 1972.

Yep, ahead of her time :-D

Nostradamus said:
they are dummy idiots. I am 100 X smarter they are. they will ban caffeine if they could
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Have to see if they included nicotine this year, they have been talking about it the past couple years along with caffeine.
 
O

octogon

Hall of Fame
Chadalina said:
It was next to the asprin at your local europeon drug store in 1972.

Yep, ahead of her time :-D
Click to expand...

The drug was only commonly available in some Eastern European countries. Little to no research had been done on it's overall effects by Sports Governing bodies because of this.

We can play these games all day long, but if you want to play dumb as to why it took so long for Meldonium to be discovered as PED, suit yourself.
 
Mainad

Mainad

Bionic Poster
Nostradamus said:
Not really. Meldonium is thought to be maybe performance enhancing but it has never been proven thru objective data. There is no study to show that Before and After meldon effects on performance showing definite significant improvement in performance. There is NO data on that.
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If it's not a PED it's a bit difficult to understand why she was taking it. Did she really need it for heart problems (or whatever she said it was for) and, if so, why did she not defend her use of it more strongly if it was medically necessary for her?
 
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Z

zep

Hall of Fame
Mainad said:
If it's not a PED it's a bit difficult to understand why she was taking it. Did she really need it for heart problems (or whtever she said it was for) and, if so, why did she not defend her use of it more strongly if it was medically necessary for her?
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It maybe a PED but you can't hold it against her for taking it when it was not illegal. I am sure she's not the only one trying to find ways to stay ahead of the competition. For example many players use hyperbaric chambers for recovery. If WADA declares it illegal tomorrow would those players be labelled as lifelong dopers? I don't think so. It's a similar situation with Sharapova. Her mistake was that she continued to take it after it was banned. I think the ban wasn't even sudden, they declared it well in advance. There can be no excuses after that.
 
B

buscemi

Hall of Fame
UnderratedSlam

UnderratedSlam

G.O.A.T.
Only a third of the tennis "experts" here realize she's won all 4 slams...

Not a good image for TTW.

Whoever didn't vote for top 10 needs to check her Wikipedia page, like now.
 
Nostradamus

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
Mainad said:
If it's not a PED it's a bit difficult to understand why she was taking it. Did she really need it for heart problems (or whatever she said it was for) and, if so, why did she not defend her use of it more strongly if it was medically necessary for her?
Click to expand...
it has Placebo effect. this works everytime. if you think it helps, it helps
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
She's not in the top 10. That's pretty much for sure whether it's Open Era or all time. She was a good player but one dimensional and could really only win one way, which doesn't work on every opponent. She also benefitted from a weak clay era and tarnished her legacy from her own doing. Even though her and Hingis have the same amount of Slams, I rank Hingis significantly higher.
 
S

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
What's all the talk about Meldonium anyway? She didn't break any rules until 2016. If you want to hate her for breaking rules in the first 2 months (or even less) of 2016 then fine. However, she got a big enough punishment for these 2 months.
 
BGod

BGod

G.O.A.T.
Ahead of Hingis for longevity and Goolagong had was from a weaker era 4/7 titles at AO and her lone French was against a complete fluke.

For melodonium, I've always been convinced Serena is a massive doper and others like Stosur so I don't care.
 
clout

clout

Hall of Fame
NoleFam said:
She's not in the top 10. That's pretty much for sure whether it's Open Era or all time. She was a good player but one dimensional and could really only win one way, which doesn't work on every opponent. She also benefitted from a weak clay era and tarnished her legacy from her own doing. Even though her and Hingis have the same amount of Slams, I rank Hingis significantly higher.
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Tbh the only player she always struggled to beat was Serena. She actually does pretty well against every other top player:

5-3 vs Venus
8-7 vs Azarenka
7-2 vs Halep
5-1 vs Davenport
4-5 vs Clijsters and Kerber
3-7 vs Henin (2-2 at majors)
10-4 vs Ivanovic
7-4 vs Wozniacki
13-2 vs Radwanska
8-1 vs Jankovic
2-1 vs Hingis
3-1 vs Muguruza
7-3 vs Zvonerava
10-5 vs Li Na
7-4 vs Kvitova
8-5 vs Kuznetsova
9-3 vs Dementieva
9-1 vs Petrova
3-1 vs Pierce
15-2 vs Stosur
 
B

buscemi

Hall of Fame
UnderratedSlam said:
Only a third of the tennis "experts" here realize she's won all 4 slams...

Not a good image for TTW.

Whoever didn't vote for top 10 needs to check her Wikipedia page, like now.
Click to expand...

Pretty tough to put her in the top 11 based on the stats I posted above, let alone the top 10. Who do you have her ahead of? Hingis + [?]?
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
clout said:
Tbh the only player she always struggled to beat was Serena. She actually does pretty well against every other top player:

5-3 vs Venus
8-7 vs Azarenka
7-2 vs Halep
5-1 vs Davenport
4-5 vs Clijsters and Kerber
3-7 vs Henin (2-2 at majors)
10-4 vs Ivanovic
7-4 vs Wozniacki
13-2 vs Radwanska
8-1 vs Jankovic
2-1 vs Hingis
3-1 vs Muguruza
7-3 vs Zvonerava
10-5 vs Li Na
7-4 vs Kvitova
8-5 vs Kuznetsova
9-3 vs Dementieva
9-1 vs Petrova
3-1 vs Pierce
15-2 vs Stosur
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Venus would have destroyed her if they had played more in her prime. Her game just would play right into her hands and Venus was a far better mover. The way those Wimbledon matches went is what would have happened a lot if they played more from 2000-2008. Her head to against Davenport wouldn't have been good either or Hingis if she played them more in their primes. She did do well with everyone else from her era except Henin and obviously Serena.
 
clout

clout

Hall of Fame
NoleFam said:
Venus would have destroyed her if they had played more in her prime. Her game just would play right into her hands and Venus was a far better mover. The way those Wimbledon matches went is what would have happened a lot if they played more from 2000-2008. Her head to against Davenport wouldn't have been good either or Hingis if she played them more in their primes. She did do well with everyone else from her era except Henin and obviously Serena.
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I think she can beat Venus on HC and clay but yeah it won’t be pretty on grass. It’ll be close with Davenport as they’re both massive hitters with subpar movement, by Davenport had a habit of choking at times. Hingis always struggled against power players so it’ll be tough for her to consistently win against Sharapova. The majority of Henin’s wins were also on clay (Henin’s best surface and Sharapova’s worst at the time of their matches), it’s a lot more even on HC. With Serena, yeah she got owned like there was no tomorrow.
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
clout said:
I think she can beat Venus on HC and clay but yeah it won’t be pretty on grass. It’ll be close with Davenport as they’re both massive hitters with subpar movement, by Davenport had a habit of choking at times. Hingis always struggled against power players so it’ll be tough for her to consistently win against Sharapova. The majority of Henin’s wins were also on clay (Henin’s best surface and Sharapova’s worst at the time of their matches), it’s a lot more even on HC. With Serena, yeah she got owned like there was no tomorrow.
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Henin is 5-2 against Sharapova on hardcourt and exposed her one dimensional game. I just think Davenport's impeccable timing and clean ball striking would handle her, because she couldn't expose Davenport's movement like the Williams did. You're probably right about Hingis and I may overestimating there.
 
B

buscemi

Hall of Fame
clout said:
Hingis always struggled against power players so it’ll be tough for her to consistently win against Sharapova.
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I don't know that I agree with that. Hingis was 58-46 against the biggest hitters of her era: 15-5 against Seles, 10-6 against Pierce, 11-10 against Venus, 5-4 against Capriati, 6-7 against Serena, and 11-14 against Davenport. That looks pretty solid to me.
 
UnderratedSlam

UnderratedSlam

G.O.A.T.
NoleFam said:
She's not in the top 10. That's pretty much for sure whether it's Open Era or all time. She was a good player but one dimensional and could really only win one way, which doesn't work on every opponent. She also benefitted from a weak clay era and tarnished her legacy from her own doing. Even though her and Hingis have the same amount of Slams, I rank Hingis significantly higher.
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Graf wasn't one-dimensional? Seles played a varied game? Evert was multi-talented?

You can nitpick on this in ATP, not WTA.

The meldonium nonsense doesn't change her results - unless you are convinced Serena and many others never cheated, which would be very naive.

Hingis and Navratilova had variety. Who else? Very few...
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
UnderratedSlam said:
Graf wasn't one-dimensional? Seles played a varied game? Evert was multi-talented?

You can nitpick on this in ATP, not WTA.

The meldonium nonsense doesn't change her results - unless you are convinced Serena and many others never cheated, which would be very naive.

Hingis and Navratilova had variety. Who else? Very few...
Click to expand...

All of those players had more dimensions in their game than Sharapova.

This isn't about Serena since she is the not the one who failed a drug test. What does Serena have to do with this since you have named her multiple times in this thread? Now it is starting to make sense. Sharapova tarnished her legacy by failing a drug test and getting suspended, whether you think meldonium is nonsense or not.
 
UnderratedSlam

UnderratedSlam

G.O.A.T.
NoleFam said:
All of those players had more dimensions in their game than Sharapova.

This isn't about Serena since she is the not the one who failed a drug test. What does Serena have to do with this since you have named her multiple times in this thread? Now it all makes sense.
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You are the one who mentioned that her "career is tarnished" by drug use... I simply responded.

Glad you consider Seles and Graf players with variety.

Graf literally played every point the same way... in the weakest era ever.
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
UnderratedSlam said:
You are the one who mentioned that her "career is tarnished" by drug use... I simply responded.

Glad you consider Seles and Graf players with variety.

Graf literally played every point the same way... in the weakest era ever.
Click to expand...

It is.

Graf obviously had much more variety than Sharapova. Why is this even a question?
 
B

buscemi

Hall of Fame
UnderratedSlam said:
She is on par with Hingis.

But yeah, sure, if we include Court and King who are remnant of a previous era...
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Tough to see a case for Sharapova being on par with Hingis. Sharapova's only edge over Hingis is winning all 4 Majors vs. Hingis winning 3 and making 2 finals at the French. Beyond that:

-Hingis had 209 weeks at #1 vs. 21 for Sharapova;
-Hingis was year-end #1 three times vs. 0 for Sharapova;
-Hingis won 2 WTA Finals vs. 1 for Sharapova;
-Hingis had 43 titles/25 runner-ups vs. 36 titles/23 runner-ups for Sharapova
-Hingis had 17 Tier I/Premier Mandatory & Premier 5 titles vs. 14 for Sharaopova
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
UnderratedSlam said:
Forehand BAM, backhand SLICE, forehand BLAM, backhand slice, forehand KABAM, backhand slice...

Such variety...

Coz bam, blam and kabam, so different.
Click to expand...

Graf was also very good at net and could hit a good topspin backhand as well. Could Sharapova ever hit a good backhand slice?
 
UnderratedSlam

UnderratedSlam

G.O.A.T.
buscemi said:
Tough to see a case for Sharapova being on par with Hingis. Sharapova's only edge over Hingis is winning all 4 Majors vs. Hingis winning 3 and making 2 finals at the French. Beyond that:

-Hingis had 209 weeks at #1 vs. 21 for Sharapova;
-Hingis was year-end #1 three times vs. 0 for Sharapova;
-Hingis won 2 WTA Finals vs. 1 for Sharapova;
-Hingis had 43 titles/25 runner-ups vs. 36 titles/23 runner-ups for Sharapova
-Hingis had 17 Tier I/Premier Mandatory & Premier 5 titles vs. 14 for Sharaopova
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Hey, everybody's been saying that SLAMS are all that counts, especially Fedfans, so I'll just play along...

5 = 5. Right?
 
TimHenmanATG

TimHenmanATG

Hall of Fame
Her reputation has only be tarnished amongst non-tennis fans.

She only breached official drug regulations for a couple of weeks, and then owned up to her oversight immediately once she was caught.

She was taking meldonium legally for years.

It's as clear as day that she only took continued to take the substance because her team were too incompetent and/or arrogant to notice that the substance resulted in a new reclassification.
 
daggerman

daggerman

Hall of Fame
For reasons that have already been shared in this thread, Sharapova is one of the hardest players in history to evaluate. Never had a period as the dominant "alpha" of women's tennis, but won the career grand slam. One of few players to win multiple slams as a teenager, but only one won slam after 25. Won 80% of her matches, but is 2-20 against her top "rival."

I colloquially tend to refer to her as a top-10 player all-time, but I think there are at least 10 women with greater careers than her. I'll say 11-15.
 
clout

clout

Hall of Fame
If players like Court, Goolagong and King are considered as pre-Open era, then Maria sits at 9th in OE. I definitely have Hingis above her though
 
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clout

clout

Hall of Fame
NoleFam said:
Henin is 5-2 against Sharapova on hardcourt and exposed her one dimensional game. I just think Davenport's impeccable timing and clean ball striking would handle her, because she couldn't expose Davenport's movement like the Williams did. You're probably right about Hingis and I may overestimating there.
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Henin is 4-3 vs Sharapova on HCs so there’s hardly a difference there. Davenport/Sharapova matches would be similar to the ones that occurred in real life. When Davenport is really on, she’ll kill her like at IW, but in close matches Maria was the tougher one.
 
B

buscemi

Hall of Fame
clout said:
If players like Court, Goolagong and King are considered as pre-Open era, then Maria sits at 9th in OE. I definitely have Hingis above her though
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Tough to see Goolagong as pre-Open Era when she won all her Majors in the Open Era. Meanwhile, Billie Jean King had the majority of her Majors in the Open Era, so I think she belongs there as well.

Court won 13 in the pre-Open Era and 11 in the Open Era, so I really consider her part of both eras.
 
AM75

AM75

Hall of Fame
She and Serena revolutionised women's tennis by turning it into unwatchable bashing screaming mess. This is the legacy which is more important than her titles. Look at how every second female player on tour wants to hit the ball as hard as she can. She also is the one who suffers from her copycats more that others. Thank god we have a new generation that understands that ball bashing is not the only way to the top.
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
clout said:
Henin is 4-3 vs Sharapova on HCs so there’s hardly a difference there. Davenport/Sharapova matches would be similar to the ones that occurred in real life. When Davenport is really on, she’ll kill her like at IW, but in close matches Maria was the tougher one.
Click to expand...

Yea you're right, my bad. Still you would expect her to beat Henin more on hardcourt than vice versa but that wasn't the case. I have to disagree about how those Davenport matches would play. Davenport was the better ball striker imo.
 
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