Ranking USO 2nd tier Champs?

DSH

DSH

Talk Tennis Guru
Djokovic is like Lendl: Very consistent to reach the finals but vulnerable in that instance. They dissolve like sugar in a glass of lemonade.
Hence their negative records of 3 wins by 5 losses in finals of the US Open.
On the contrary, Nadal and McEnroe are not as "consistent" as the two players mentioned but when they reach the last match of the tournament they grow exponentially and bring out their best tennis.
Hence their very positive records of 4 titles in 5 finals in NY.
Agassi, can only be explained with one name: Sampras.
And let's not forget that in the 1999 edition, Pistol Pete's injury left the way for the Las Vegas Kid to win the title that occasion.
So, you can't say that everything was bad for him.
:D
 
BGod

BGod

G.O.A.T.
StrongRule said:
Fact is you can't get over Nadal having 4 USO titles. This is why you try this cherrypicking. So nice of you mentioning injured Nadal losing to Del Potro in 2018 but not mentioning Djokovic losing to NISHIKORI. And Djokovic also once lost to Murray in USO, but of course you ignore that. Well, keep hating. I guess your next thread will be about why Federer and Djokovic are better/greater players in RG than Nadal.
Click to expand...

Am I arguing for Rafter or Edberg? I think there's a clear group of these 5 players below the Big 3. And it's not just that Fed/Pete/Connors have the 5 titles but how they dominated (Fed's 5 straight, Pete over 12 years & Connors 3 different surfaces).

Now I acknowledge Agassi on the surface looks to be the odd man out with only 2 titles but I grew up as a big fan of his and one can't understate how in reality beyond the paper, Sampras stood in his way and affected his under-performance there. Ultimately though when you're comparing with Nadal he in effect has 2 additional deep runs (Final & Semi) and I think a 2 title difference considering the opponents makes it close enough. If Nadal makes just one more Final I might put him ahead of Agassi because that gap Andre has now won't be there and you can only look at the toss-up scenario so much.

But ultimately I look at Finals as very circumstance based unless there's injury or it's a rout. A tight 4 set, let alone 5 set match can go the other way.
 
BGod

BGod

G.O.A.T.
Sunny Ali said:
5 titles vs 4 titles isn't big enough a difference to split them into separate tiers.
Click to expand...

Context?

Federer won 5 consecutively and lost his 6th bid in 5 sets. Additionally has 2 five set Semifinals he held match points in.

Connors won on 3 surfaces and made 12 consecutive semifinals.

Pete won 12 years apart and made 8 finals.

I mean, if it's just winning 5/6 vs. 4/5 I can see your point but we're talking 3 additional finals, additional semifinals and consecutive streaks.
 
D

Deleted member 744633

Guest
BGod said:
Context?

Federer won 5 consecutively and lost his 6th bid in 5 sets. Additionally has 2 five set Semifinals he held match points in.

Connors won on 3 surfaces and made 12 consecutive semifinals.

Pete won 12 years apart and made 8 finals.

I mean, if it's just winning 5/6 vs. 4/5 I can see your point but we're talking 3 additional finals, additional semifinals and consecutive streaks.
Click to expand...

B ... good points. Those stats are for ardent tennis lovers like ourselves. For the general public and history, it's the wins that count and nothing else.
 
UnderratedSlam

UnderratedSlam

G.O.A.T.
BGod said:
Connors, Pete & Roger are firmly in a class of their own at the US Open but how do you rank the 2nd tier of legends:

Nadal 4 in 5 Finals, 3 Semis
McEnroe 4 in 5 Finals (Threepeat), 3 Semis
Lendl 3 in 8 Finals (Threepeat), 1 Semi
Djokovic 3 in 8 Finals, 3 Semis
Agassi 2 in 6 Finals, 4 Semis

I know Agassi with his 2 titles sticks out like a sore thumb but arguably toughest opponents in losses of Sampras (3) & Federer in finals and Lendl twice in semis as a teen.

And of course Lendl had 8 consecutive Finals which is the record for any Slam and again tough opponents.

And with McEnroe & Lendl there's a gap with winning 3 in a row and Nadal/Novak not even having a repeat.

1. Lendl
2. McEnroe
3. Djokovic
4. Agassi
5. Nadal

Controversial I'm sure but Andre has the 1 additional Final & Semi while facing an absolute wall in later stages. Nadal has the 2 quality wins over Novak but Anderson/Medvedev is below even a Todd Martin for Agassi while getting Lendl to 4 sets alone as a teen is massive. Nadal also got obliterated by Potro twice and Andy Murray. So yeah seeing Agassi still above.
Click to expand...
Let's bump this thread in September after Rafa gets the 5th...
 
ForehandRF

ForehandRF

Legend
DSH said:
Djokovic is like Lendl: Very consistent to reach the finals but vulnerable in that instance. They dissolve like sugar in a glass of lemonade.
Hence their negative records of 3 wins by 5 losses in finals of the US Open.
On the contrary, Nadal and McEnroe are not as "consistent" as the two players mentioned but when they reach the last match of the tournament they grow exponentially and bring out their best tennis.
Hence their very positive records of 4 titles in 5 finals in NY.
Agassi, can only be explained with one name: Sampras.
And let's not forget that in the 1999 edition, Pistol Pete's injury left the way for the Las Vegas Kid to win the title that occasion.
So, you can't say that everything was bad for him.
:D
Click to expand...
Agassi didn't took his chances at the 2003 USO though.Pete retired, Fed wasn't a force just yet, that year was a good opportunity.
 
B

BringBackSV

Hall of Fame
BGod said:
Connors, Pete & Roger are firmly in a class of their own at the US Open but how do you rank the 2nd tier of legends:

Nadal 4 in 5 Finals, 3 Semis
McEnroe 4 in 5 Finals (Threepeat), 3 Semis
Lendl 3 in 8 Finals (Threepeat), 1 Semi
Djokovic 3 in 8 Finals, 3 Semis
Agassi 2 in 6 Finals, 4 Semis

I know Agassi with his 2 titles sticks out like a sore thumb but arguably toughest opponents in losses of Sampras (3) & Federer in finals and Lendl twice in semis as a teen.

And of course Lendl had 8 consecutive Finals which is the record for any Slam and again tough opponents.

And with McEnroe & Lendl there's a gap with winning 3 in a row and Nadal/Novak not even having a repeat.

1. Lendl
2. McEnroe
3. Djokovic
4. Agassi
5. Nadal

Controversial I'm sure but Andre has the 1 additional Final & Semi while facing an absolute wall in later stages. Nadal has the 2 quality wins over Novak but Anderson/Medvedev is below even a Todd Martin for Agassi while getting Lendl to 4 sets alone as a teen is massive. Nadal also got obliterated by Potro twice and Andy Murray. So yeah seeing Agassi still above.
Click to expand...

Congrats on the low level trolling.
 
C

ChrisRF

Legend
BGod said:
Sampras is clear cut above Djokovic. So Nadal beating Novak 2 of 3 times is solid but not the same as Agassi falling to Sampras.

Essentially Nadal absolutely maxed out with 4 titles so far, there's no year he didn't win that he came close and 2 years you could say he got lucky by not facing better competition.

Agassi's close losses of 95 & 02 Sampras (basically a break in each may change outcome) to again a stronger opponent. He also lost in 5 to Federer in 04.
Click to expand...
Do I understand it wrong or do really want to say that being 0-4 against Sampras is better than being 2-1 against Djokovic?

Also Nadal in 2011 was as close as Agassi in some of his final losses.
 
BGod

BGod

G.O.A.T.
ChrisRF said:
Do I understand it wrong or do really want to say that being 0-4 against Sampras is better than being 2-1 against Djokovic?

Also Nadal in 2011 was as close as Agassi in some of his final losses.
Click to expand...

I'm saying the form in which Agassi was in against Sampras in at least 2 of those 4 encounters was better than Nadal against Djokovic except in 2013. Please take a look at the legendary quarter:

 
B

BringBackSV

Hall of Fame
BGod said:
I'm saying the form in which Agassi was in against Sampras in at least 2 of those 4 encounters was better than Nadal against Djokovic except in 2013. Please take a look at the legendary quarter:

Click to expand...

Nobody should care about your mental mythical matchups, how about we stick to reality? You should be a little more subtle if you want to troll/rile people up with ridiculous takes.
 
Incognito

Incognito

Legend
KINGROGER said:
USO is almost a different tournament this decade. Slowed down surface, new roof, lucky draws etc.

Fed is the king in New York for his 5 in a row on quick surface.
Click to expand...

you can say that about AO as well. Do you really think Djokovic would win 7 AO if they are all played in the middle of the day/early afternoon, in 37 degree heat without roof, like the tournaments in the 80-90s?
 
topher

topher

Hall of Fame
Forget the tiers, final answer:

1. Jimbo
2a. Roger
2b. Pete
4. Tilden
5. JMac
6. Rafa
7. Ivan
8. Novak
9. Sears
10. Wrenn
11. Gonzalez
12. Kramer
13. Baldy

;)
 
Last edited:
ForumMember

ForumMember

Hall of Fame
BGod said:
Connors, Pete & Roger are firmly in a class of their own at the US Open but how do you rank the 2nd tier of legends:

Nadal 4 in 5 Finals, 3 Semis
McEnroe 4 in 5 Finals (Threepeat), 3 Semis
Lendl 3 in 8 Finals (Threepeat), 1 Semi
Djokovic 3 in 8 Finals, 3 Semis
Agassi 2 in 6 Finals, 4 Semis

I know Agassi with his 2 titles sticks out like a sore thumb but arguably toughest opponents in losses of Sampras (3) & Federer in finals and Lendl twice in semis as a teen.

And of course Lendl had 8 consecutive Finals which is the record for any Slam and again tough opponents.

And with McEnroe & Lendl there's a gap with winning 3 in a row and Nadal/Novak not even having a repeat.

1. Lendl
2. McEnroe
3. Djokovic
4. Agassi
5. Nadal

Controversial I'm sure but Andre has the 1 additional Final & Semi while facing an absolute wall in later stages. Nadal has the 2 quality wins over Novak but Anderson/Medvedev is below even a Todd Martin for Agassi while getting Lendl to 4 sets alone as a teen is massive. Nadal also got obliterated by Potro twice and Andy Murray. So yeah seeing Agassi still above.
Click to expand...
I think even Del Potro should be ahead of Nadal. Delpo leads Nadal h2h at USO by 2-1. Delpo defeated Federer at USO that Nadal never could. Delpo defeated title defeating both Nadal and Federer. Equivalent of that woyuld be Nadal winning USO by defeating Fed and Djok back to back but all Nadal is able to do is winning against likes of Berrettini..

In my opinion order should be

Lendl
McEnroe
Djokovic
Agassi
Delpo
Cilic
Roddick
Rafter
Safin
Hewitt
Wilander
Todd Martin
Mecir
David Wheton
Aaron Crickstein
--
--
---
Sumit Nagal

---
Rafael Nadal Parera
 
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