terribleIVAN
Hall of Fame
And having a single RG isn't a joke ?
Rafa does have 2 Wimbledons, and one of them came against your maestro, who had to wait for Rafa to get injured to win his lone RG.
Djokovic only has himself to blame.
- Thread starter TMF
- Start date
And having a single RG isn't a joke ?
Rafa does have 2 Wimbledons, and one of them came against your maestro, who had to wait for Rafa to get injured to win his lone RG.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
TheGhostOfAgassi
Talk Tennis Guru
“Only” two?
Even though he didn’t save himself in RG this year he still won Wimbledon.
van_Loederen
Professional
barely edged out methusafed, then injured at the USO.
would have ended better if he'd let have gone RG.
FedFinalFantasy
New User
Better player can lose. Luck happens in life bro. This isn't some robotic computerized thing. Federer clearly outplayed Novak. Was 2 inches on a serve away from the title. Novak did well to hang in there but come on.
Not to mention if on any decent grass, Federer wins in 3 , max 4 sets. All at 38.
Dudes a cut above the fray. The sooner you accept it, the better for you.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
The machine is slowing down 
His defense is nowhere near what it used to be
His defense is nowhere near what it used to be
TheGhostOfAgassi
Talk Tennis Guru
Has Novak become that fragile? That USO was too close to Wimbledon? Sounds even more fragile than Rafa the way you talk.
FedFinalFantasy
New User
The machine is slowing down
His defense is nowhere near what it used to be
Yes he is but don't expect topspin Capri man to carry on much longer either. Dude is 0-14 vs fedovic off clay since 2014.
Let's get real, this may have been the last hurrah for Djokodal. Fitting it happens for them together because both are retrieving grinders.
Not my cup of tea. And not anyone who appreciates real tennis either .
The old Maestro may just be the last man standing after all.
van_Loederen
Professional
making the latter stages of the slams sucks a huge lot of energy off the players, physically and mentally too. Rafa was like spared at Wimbledon, while DJ got no rest.
(DJ made RG semis and the won Wimbly,
but it's not limited to the Slams, there are also M1000s.)
FedFinalFantasy
New User
Also note how Rafa always takes time off then comes back thru out the year. Massive advantage to win slams. A very contrived approach. Effective as hell but also disrespectful as hell.
TheGhostOfAgassi
Talk Tennis Guru
Rafa won a master not that long time before USO. He reached final in AO, SF in Wimbledon and won RG. Not that big of a difference than w Novak.
van_Loederen
Professional
(i'll reply tomorrow, goa & fff. )
)
beast of mallorca
G.O.A.T.
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
I think he had trouble with his elbow. Yeah he's struggled with consistency this year. I think the W final took a lot out of him physically and mentally.
But, damn, it was worth it. Fed trolling at its best. 40-15 ha ha top level fear and glory. My #1 match forever
But, damn, it was worth it. Fed trolling at its best. 40-15 ha ha
top level fear and glory. My #1 match forever 
ghostofMecir
Legend
A player who’s won more than half the points played in a H-t-H is a pigeon? A guy down only 23-26 (with three matches he won more points in) at 38 years old when playing ?half of these matches past the age of 30.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
I think he had trouble with his elbow. Yeah he's struggled with consistency this year. I think the W final took a lot out of him physically and mentally.
But, damn, it was worth it. Fed trolling at its best. 40-15 ha ha
It really does look like Wimby took a lot out of him, kinda like FO 2016 he was wiped for a while after
Yeah, that match against Thiem really stings because Novak should have won it. Either at 30-30 in the 10th game of the 3rd set (when Novak looked to be playing better than Thiem, had the momentum on his side and really ought to have broken him), or from when he was 4--1 up in the tie break. To let Thiem rattle off 5 consecutive points from that stage-- puzzling. Not something one would expect a clutch, steely player like Novak to do.
There was no way he was beating Fed in that RR match, though. 38 years or whatever, Fed played awesome and Novak really did not have a chance against him on that day, that match. Had Novak won against Thiem though, Fed and Novak would have qualified as 1 & 2 from Group Bjorn Borg, and Novak would be facing Tsitsipas in the semi today. Very, very doable; considering the fact that Tsitsipas has never been at this stage before and would surely be exhausted after his RR match with Rafa.
But, just to play devil's advocate -- Had Novak beaten Thiem, it's worthwhile to wonder whether Thiem would have pushed harder and eked out a win in 3 sets at least, against Berretini. I'm not saying Thiem tanked that last match, sure he didn't. But surely, he would have pushed a lot harder had his qualification been on the line. If that happened, and we had 2 counterfactual results- Novak defeating Thiem and then Thiem defeating Berretini - we would still have Novak (unfortunately) eliminated from the semis.
So in sum, it is what it is. Hope Novak takes some time off to recoup and re-energise - not just physically but also from his extremely flat , passive approach which plagued the end of his match with Thiem and the entirety of his match with Fed.
Tennisbg
Professional
Federer is using something. But if you are so proud cool.
Mike Sams
G.O.A.T.
Federer only choked a couple of points against Djokovic.
Nadal choked an entire match against Djokovic (AO2019 Finals). The absolute worst Slam finals performance from Nadal ever.
It was like he was gonna cry right from the first ball.
Lleytonstation
Talk Tennis Guru
I will teach you about the "tiger." The g-word is nonsense.
Lleytonstation
Talk Tennis Guru
Either Rafa is the greatest clay player of all time who is a class above everyone else (I tend to believe this), or it is a sad reality that Fed and Djoker only have one RG each.
Not sure how having only one RG is a joke. When Rafa is not winning it, Djoker, Fed, or Wawa won it. Rafa stopped Fed and djoker many times.
So if Rafa is as great as we say he is at RG (and he is), then winning only one RG is no joke.
Spencer Gore
Legend
No, he just needed the weakest field in the history of the sport for the majority of them.
Any of the All Time Greats would have cleaned up during Fed's weak era, and several of them would have nabbed a calendar year Grand Slam or two along the way.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
I could easily claim that Djokovic was too young in the beginning of the rivalry: Federer is #3 in the world, while Djokovic was #56 the first time he met Federer.
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Lleytonstation
Talk Tennis Guru
Has won more sets too.
Spencer Gore
Legend
It's tragic to see Federer's fans reduced to trying to add up points and sets to try and bulk up their hero's resume.
I feel embarrassed for them.
I feel embarrassed for them.
Lleytonstation
Talk Tennis Guru
Fine, let's just use the slam count...
O
OhYes
Guest
If you root against him, yes I can totally agree with you.
Spencer Gore
Legend
Well, that would make more sense. Instead of this panic-induced rewriting of history just because two players are getting closer to Forty-Fifteen-Fed's slam total.Fine, let's just use the slam count...
Lleytonstation
Talk Tennis Guru
F-cubed?
ghostofMecir
Legend
They played when Djokovic was “young Djokovic” 23 times? That’s how mamy times they played after Federer turned 30.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Federer didn't get oĺd at 30. He's still #3 eight years after.
If we want to be precise, in their h2h Federer had a higher average ranking than Djokovic.
Lleytonstation
Talk Tennis Guru
Amazing, I know.
I'm not sure what this means. The H2H record reflects both-- the fact that Fed tended to dominate more earlier, when Novak was young (while Novak did get wins too), and that Novak has dominated after 2010 (with Fed still managing to get wins in). AFAIK, Federer was leading 13–6 by the end of 2010, but Novak has a 20–10 record since 2011.
As for GS, Fed held a 4--2 advantage in matches till end 2010, while Novak holds a 8--2 advantage in GS matches 2011 till date.
For the record, while I am more of a fan of Novak, I would agree that Fed is the GOAT, all things considered, now. That may or may not change, depending on whether Novak manages to cross Fed's GS count.
But why should everything be viewed in binary terms? Is it so hard to appreciate more than one player?
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terribleIVAN
Hall of Fame
So, when Novak wins the first 2 tie-breaks of the final, it was luck too ? He was being outplayed but luck reared it's head there too ?
I suppose his 2 other wins in the final vs Fed (2013,2015) were luck too.
Novak, the luckiest ever SOB to have lifted a racket.
R
Robert Baratheon
Guest
LMAO wat
Spencer Gore
Legend
The luckiest player in history is Roger Forty-Fifteen. He lucked into the weakest era in the history of the game.
van_Loederen
Professional
"more fragile" may be true indeed. we'll probably see it in the coming years.
the whole package of clay season, Wimbly and USO was apparently too much for him this year as he sustained an injury. seemingly not a severe one, but 'shoulder' still doesn't sound good. (i talked about it in my early poasts in this thread.)
Nadal's injuries are of a different kind. most of the time he just tears a muscle. his patellar tendonitis he more or less manages, but it still recurs every other season (2019 went better), so he has to insert breaks too.
it regularly recurs during the indoor streak as he regularly "overplays" during other parts of the season and will continue to do so.
(well, he didn't go all-out already during the early phase of the clay season this year, which certainly helped.)
indoor hard is ofc his worst surface as well, and tendonitis is not an injury that sidelines one completely at once, so there is some calculation included.
Well, I can agree with a statement that Fed ought to have won that match but lost it. Yes, he was the better player by most stats through large stretches of the match. But when it counted, on the key points, Novak came up with the goods. I don't see why one can't accept both these facts. And yes, Fed is definitely a cut above the fray for now, I do agree with that. But if either of Novak or Rafa overtake his GS haul, there is definitely an open discussion to be had. There would likely never be a conclusion to this debate that everyone can agree with --- but then the GOAT discussion is more of a subjective than a purely objective one, anyway.
Novak's victory in Wimbledon isn't down to "Luck happens in life". It's due to the fact that at those crucial points, Novak stayed steely and clutch, while Fed faltered a bit. One can't simply keep on ascribing things to lucky shots. I mean, 2010 & 2011 USO semis, 2019 Wimbledon final -- all down to Luck??
Backspin1183
Talk Tennis Guru
And he is playing even better than before. The competition at the Tour Finals just got better with the arrivals of new strong players in Zverev, Tsitsipas, Medvedev, Thiem, etc. They are better than Djokovic's 2011-2016 competitions that had Ferrer, Anderson, Isner, Dimitrov, Raonic, Goffin, Nishikori, etc.
But Federer only won 3 slams between 2015-2019. Did you mean to say Djokovic?
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Probably, but beating consistently top players like he did in 2011-16 was still impressive.
HetTheGreaterer
Banned
I totally agree, sunshine double was a missed opportunity.
Along with NA HC season. He should have won against Medvedev..
HetTheGreaterer
Banned
Thiem was choking like crazy in RG2019 Match and still ended up winning somehow.
His explosive power is way too much to handle for anyone not named rafa on clay in a BO5 format
Djokodal not being your cup of tea, that's fine. One can of course have champs one wants to root for and those one does does not.
But a blanket statement that no one who appreciates real tennis would admire them? Where did that come from? This is just feeding into a forced binary-- that one is somehow forced to dislike or denigrate any player other than one's favorite champ.
Not sure if you play tennis, I've been playing since the early 90s besides being an ardent fan of the game. I can see plenty to admire in each of the Big 3's game. Rooting for one player doesn't mean one can't appreciate others, right?
Backspin1183
Talk Tennis Guru
Two ways to look at it. Impressive? Sure. But it also highly inflated his wins over top 10 players due to playing weak top 10 players. And he hasn't looked that good against stronger top 10 we have today.
So using his MMA h2h logic, does this mean Silva wasn't great, because now past his prime he is losing to new generation? But not even MMA community is saying Silva wasn't good. And GSP is the goat at age 38 won the belt, that is sort of similar Fed winning 3 majors at age 37-38 and being nr.1 and beating Nadal. And I can say Nadal is much tougher than Bisping and yet even if Lew is using MMA logic, he fails even there, nobody in MMA think Silva is not great.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
Silva lost two fights in a row to Chris Weidman...
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