King No1e
G.O.A.T.
There's a difference between staying dead even for 11 years vs losing virtually all your matches, then having a 2-year break before making up the distance.
Federer v Nadal H2H has been 8-8 starting from RG 2011
- Thread starter Hitman
- Start date
beard
Legend
Exactly, so age is just a number that means nothing...
So, "Fed is 38 years old" basically means nothing...
Federer can beat younger player (Nadal) or lose to younger player (Novak)...
You can't per se say Novak is younger, Federer lost because of his age... Fed-Nad h2h proves that...
mike danny
Bionic Poster
As @Hitman said, they are 11-10 in Rafa's favor since Madrid 2009.
That's a 10 year period in which Fed has been neck and neck with Nadal.
Can't just ignore what has happened since 2015 and fully count 2013-early 2014 when Fed sucked.
beard
Legend
Haha, I dare him to show his epicness against Novak too
ForehandRF
Legend
Age gap disadvantage is considered in the Fedovic rivalry, not in the Fedal rivalry.Nadal lead the H2H from the beginning, but Fed lead the H2H with Djokovic up until 2014-2015, so there is a difference in dynamics between these 2 rivalries.Now, it's not like the age gap in the Fedovic rivalry it's the only cause of the current 27-23 because Djokovic's greatness and clutchness comes into discussion and these things can't be ignored, but it's not like the age doesn't matter at all.It matters, but it's not the only thing, as proved by matches like 2011USO or 2019 WB when age can't be the cause.Djokovic is in a better shape than Nadal, so it's harder for Fed at this stage of his career to hang on with him from the baseline when the serb plays close to his best.Now it's to Djokovic's credit for taking care of his body and all of that as he looks to be in a better physical shape than Fedal at the same age.It's not like Novak victories in recent years don't count because Fed is older, but at the same time these victories should not be used as an irrefutable proof that Novak is greater overall than Fed imo.
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Subway Tennis
Legend
@mike danny is not a troll who thinks clay doesn't count.
The point he is making is fair. In recent years, when the conditions suit Federer, he has managed to change the power dynamic. It's true, and as an older player Federer deserves credit there.
Nadal also has his strongholds as well.
I would love to see them play on fast hardcourts with a lively surface that takes spin. The USO might be the best option we have as a "neutral" surface where we might see the most even contest possible.
It's a fascinating prospect, and one I think we will never see.
The tennis Gods are punishing USO fans for their poor behaviour over the years by making sure they are the only major to never witness a Fedal matchup.
ForehandRF
Legend
USO is the worst place for Fed to meet Nadal if we talk about hard courts.Conditions are not suitable for his game and he looks to be spent by the time the tournament starts.To beat Nadal there, he would need to play very well and Nadal to be in one of those days when he is, let's say, less inspired.They should have met years ago, when both were closer to their best.Imagine Nadal winning now, the 1-0 H2H vs Fed at the USO would be sung just like the 2-1 vs Djokovic is.
beard
Legend
Bolded...
Loool, it can't be so...
Novak and Rafa are about same age... Federer is either old or isn't old...
He can't be old when playing Novak, and not be old when he is playing Nadal...
I am making fun of Fed fans typical explanation for Fed loses against Novak... "He is old"... You can't explain that simple... If he is old he should lose to Nadal too, he is younger too...
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
Number of matches of clay in their h2h until the 2011 FO (last time Fed was in his 20s) from the total number of matches = 14/25.
LOLOLO
LOLOLO
ForehandRF
Legend
I explained why.Fed lead the H2H with Novak till 2015, but never with Nadal, that's why the age gap can't be used in the conversation with Nadal.Nadal lead the rivalry 8-6 even in the 2004-2007 period.The pattern in their rivalries is different and the Fedovic rivalry follows the pattern where the younger player takes control as time passes.As I said in my previous post, age gap it's not the only cause and I credited Djokovic.Read my previous post again.
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beard
Legend
Maybe Fed should try harder in his 30s, he got younger against Nadal....
beard
Legend
You are trying to explain unexplainable...
I agree that pattern in their rivalries is different... But its not only age, but many more things...
You must consider all those things... Cant just say Fed is old that's why he loses to Novak... Age is important, but there are more important factors (proved by Fedal h2h)...
ForehandRF
Legend
True, that's exactly what I said, it's not only age.Djokovic's greatness and clutchness can't be ignored.
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
Nadal lost his main asset and it showed in the h2h. Fed even now at 38 can take advantage.
beard
Legend
Well we agree than...
beard
Legend
Agree, older doesn't mean weaker, and younger doesn't mean auto win against older... You should wage better Novak's wins against ******* more, and same way wage better Federer who is great even now (not great as he was, same as Novak is not great as he was, or Rafa too)...
Federer started losing every single slam match to Djokovic because of his reduced level (with Djokovic maybe becoming a bit more solid)
now what’s the reason for that? I would say the decline movement brought on by age decline and the forced change of racket.
beard
Legend
It's normal players to have different phases in their carieers, considering fitness, speed, movement, injuries, change of serve, racket... and dosents other things... Age is just one of factors... When Federer is losing to Novak and winning against Nadal who are same age, it's impossible to explain the loses just by using age gap, and you are doing that all the time... That's my only point...
beard
Legend
Its 11-6 at most important tournaments - slams...
65% vs 35%
And its 6-0 since 2014, Federer is completely owned when it matters the most ...
Against two biggest rivals "goat" is 21-10 at slams...
68% vs 32%
Enga
Hall of Fame
So what you're saying is the overall h2h doesn't matter. BUT, if you twist your head and look at it sideways, it does matter actually a lot?Its 11-6 at most important tournaments - slams...
65% vs 35%
And its 6-0 since 2014, Federer is completely owned when it matters the most ...
Against two biggest rivals "goat" is 21-10 at slams...
68% vs 32%
Flash O'Groove
Hall of Fame
How??? Either I don't understand what you mean, or you prove that you don't understand how changes in players game alter how they matchup.
swordtennis
G.O.A.T.
Throw it back in their faces like a cream pie into the face of a clown.
beard
Legend
Overall h2h matter, but slam h2h is more important, same as slam are the most important tournaments...
But we can go with overall h2h, he is bad there too...
PeoplesChamp
Legend
Oh, because he won an Olympic gold
One YEC to go along with that isn't nearly enough for such a claim.
CYGS
Legend
That's called hypocrisy. Age excuse is just that, an excuse.
Born_to_slice
Legend
It was just a thought. Quite probable imho.
I see your point. I think fed improved his baseline game in 2017 after 6 months off which helped him vs nadal. then was very solid on clay/grass in 2019 too which almost bagged him a Wimbledon title.
I blame more his change of racket in 2014 than anything. If it was possible to keep the PS90 and play his 2011/2012 style to that level in 2014-2015 then I can see him bagging a couple of slams.
beard
Legend
Yes, Federer (and Novak and Rafa) goes try phases of better and not that good form. Sometimes all align well, and he gets trophies, sometimes it doesn't...
Generally, I agree that Fed is in this phase of career in age disadvantage, but it can't be only reason when he loses, other factor combined can be more important (Nadal h2h)...
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