When coach and parent don't agree on something....

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giantschwinn

Semi-Pro
For example, grip change. Coach says the kid should go with Semi-Western but the parent wants to see eastern forehand grip. Parent is a Federer fan, can careless what's better for modern tennis. Parent wants to see a little Roger Federer clone.

What would you do if a coach and parent don't see eye to eye on something? I would love to hear from both coach and parent's perspectives.
 
C

chic

Hall of Fame
In my opinion parents should listen to coaches and not be overly invested in the minutiae of their kids tennis. They should be supportive, and make sure that the general coaching philosophy is something they support (ie not abusive). But find a coach you trust to help your kid improve, then let them do their job.

Parents who helicopter, or put pressure on young athletes to perform, or make them feel conflicted over whether to listen to parent or coach often just end up with resentful kids. There are exceptions and it's a fine line to ride, but I've seen a lots of people doing it well and many doing it poorly in swim and tennis.

Let the coach coach, support the kid and show interest, but the parents job is to give love and affection, not idolizing sometime else and potentially setting impossible expectations (ie b the kid being Fed, but also smaller things that tend to come with overinvolved parents ime)
 
D

Deleted member 768841

Guest
I’m neither however I think the parent is in the wrong, because they don’t seem to have much if any tennis knowledge. If she wants a fed clone just do a one handed backhand or wear collared shirts. Idk what to think, such an odd situation.
 
3loudboys

3loudboys

G.O.A.T.
My son was part of the LTA's regional development squad in the UK. His natural forehand grip was 3/4 Western - so a little round from semi western and similar to Djokovic. They and his coach tried to change it from that grip to be 'textbook' semi western but with no real increase in effectiveness. It really depends on the reason for the difference of opinion.
 
C

chic

Hall of Fame
3loudboys said:
My son was part of the LTA's regional development squad in the UK. His natural forehand grip was 3/4 Western - so a little round from semi western and similar to Djokovic. They and his coach tried to change it from that grip to be 'textbook' semi western but with no real increase in effectiveness. It really depends on the reason for the difference of opinion.
Click to expand...

I think it's different to disagree with a coaching philosophy (switching to an ideal vs keeping what's natural unless/until there's obvious flaw) than to be trying to push a kid into some specific, likely counter productive, technique
 
3loudboys

3loudboys

G.O.A.T.
chic said:
I think it's different to disagree with a coaching philosophy (switching to an ideal vs keeping what's natural unless/until there's obvious flaw) than to be trying to push a kid into some specific, likely counter productive, technique
Click to expand...
Very possibly, I agree that changes should only be made if there is a genuine benefit to that change. Grips are often the focus of coach based reworking and yet there are so many different variations and most can be backed up by examples of it working at the very highest level.
 
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giantschwinn

Semi-Pro
It's always those parents who know a little too much about tennis that can cause troubles for the coach.
But at the same time, if a coach is not flexible and takes the my way or the high way approach then he will have trouble keeping students.
After all, a dedicated parent is going to practice and hit balls outside of the lesson, the coach needs to have the parent's buy-in when he wants to change something.
 
3loudboys

3loudboys

G.O.A.T.
Completely agree. We parents take the kids to the tournaments and put the hard hours in with them after they have had their 1 hour individual technical lesson. For me coaches need to get out more often and watch the kids play in a tournament situation. How can a coach know that their teachings are effective if they do not take the time to watch their student compete and the technique in action? We can all modify technical aspects of our game in the comfort zone of a lesson or a hit. I have spoken with coaches about this several times and most argue they need payment for that time which I can understand to some extent. I counter it with the fact that all professionals do some unpaid overtime - its just the way of it.
 
G

giantschwinn

Semi-Pro
So on this issue about grip change, how do a coach handle a parent saying no to the change? Do you just drop him as a student?

What makes it more confusing is, for every coach advocating semi-western, you can find another coach saying eastern is fine. So the answer is not often so black and white.
 
S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
giantschwinn said:
For example, grip change. Coach says the kid should go with Semi-Western but the parent wants to see eastern forehand grip. Parent is a Federer fan, can careless what's better for modern tennis. Parent wants to see a little Roger Federer clone.

What would you do if a coach and parent don't see eye to eye on something? I would love to hear from both coach and parent's perspectives.
Click to expand...

Eastern grip doesn't cut it any more.
 
C

chic

Hall of Fame
3loudboys said:
Very possibly, I agree that changes should only be made if there is a genuine benefit to that change. Grips are often the focus of coach based reworking and yet there are so many different variations and most can be backed up by examples of it working at the very highest level.
Click to expand...
Right, my opinion isn't eastern=bad. It's that the parent shouldn't be putting pressure on the kid to use eastern. In OPs post it sounds like the kids not necessarily doing it naturally by instinct, and likely they're having trouble with certain shots so the coach is trying to address that.

giantschwinn said:
know a little too much about tennis that can cause troubles for the
Click to expand...
It's not about knowing too much, it's about not letting them do their job. If you took the parental pressure off, what does the kid think?
giantschwinn said:
the coach needs to have the parent's buy-in when he wants to change something.
Click to expand...
No. The parents need to buy-in to the coaching methodology when they pick where to get lessons, then take their hands off the wheel. Doing extra practice is fine, making the kid the rope in a game of tug of war isn't.
 
3loudboys

3loudboys

G.O.A.T.
There is still a place for Eastern grips but if its not natural and causing problems switching - stick with what is natural.

A good coach should recognise this and be able to influence a tennis parent. Tough job coaching as you need to be technically skilled, an excellent communicator and a good negotiator.
 
C

chic

Hall of Fame
3loudboys said:
Why is that?
Click to expand...
An aside, eastern doesn't cut it in many cases for juniors because with everyone hitting topspin the ball can be bouncing above their head. So there's some validity to the idea that even if someone wants to hit Eastern they need to grow into it first
 
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giantschwinn

Semi-Pro
chic said:
No. The parents need to buy-in to the coaching methodology when they pick where to get lessons, then take their hands off the wheel. Doing extra practice is fine, making the kid the rope in a game of tug of war isn't.
Click to expand...
How do you handle a parent who give you a kid and say here you go teach him Federer's forehand stroke? The parents hand the kid to you and take hands off the wheel.
 
C

chic

Hall of Fame
I mean I was more a swim coach. But I'd likely explain:

1 not how I teach, we'd watch top techniques for form but I'd see what develops naturally.

2 I'm not going to focus on something that often won't work for kids at a certain age (see height problem above). My focus has always been building the fundamentals within the restrictions of the kids current age (in swim there's some parts of technique that just need more muscle ie)

3 specifically a grip change is something that could be discussed when the kid is in their early/ mid teens. But it's not something I would go for unless it was coming naturally, or the child's choice because of something they wanted out of their game.

4 if that's not something you're ok with you can find another instructor.
 
3loudboys

3loudboys

G.O.A.T.
chic said:
An aside, eastern doesn't cut it in many cases for juniors because with everyone hitting topspin the ball can be bouncing above their head. So there's some validity to the idea that even if someone wants to hit Eastern they need to grow into it first
Click to expand...
The height argument makes sense although my son has played a high ranked U12 who hit hard and flat with an Eastern that was effective.
 
G

giantschwinn

Semi-Pro
If you let the kid hit naturally, a 6 year old will gravitate towards western. I don't 'buy the argument of letting the kid hit with what feels natural.

Teaching eastern is not only teaching the grip, it's teaching taking the ball early/footwork.
 
C

chic

Hall of Fame
But realistically what I'm trying to get across to you is that it sounds like you need to do some introspection about the relationship you want with your child. You sound like you care about them and their upbringing a lot, which is laudable!

But the way you are describing your involvement sounds like many of my peers overinvolved parents. There often was lots of crying in the locker room and sometimes on the pool deck from stress from those kids as they got older if they didn't feel like they were meeting goals. Lots of resentment toward their parents forcing them to do things they didn't want to and just not understanding.

I'm not trying to call you a bad parent, obviously I'm going of next to 0 insight here. But the way you seem to talk about this makes me wary, so I'm just trying to give the best feedback I can off that.
 
C

chic

Hall of Fame
3loudboys said:
The height argument makes sense although my son has played a high ranked U12 who hit hard and flat with an Eastern that was effective.
Click to expand...
Not saying it doesn't or can't exist, just that there's a reason many coaches will move grips more (semi)Western as a natural tendency. Also, by 12 I was like 5'6" and the relative height of the ball would have been manageable eastern. Heck I might have preferred flattening out my shots as an early bloomer height wise.

Very different than like 6yos
 
3loudboys

3loudboys

G.O.A.T.
Its tough being a tennis parent and for me its the kids journey and as parents us giving them the support they need to go as far on it as they want to. The technical aspect is just one part of the skills needed and to often we can overly wrapped up in minor technicalities whilst ignoring much more important physical, mental or tactical issues.
 
G

giantschwinn

Semi-Pro
It's completely the opposite. I put no pressure on my kid. I put the pressure on the coach to teach how I would like to see taught. The chance of my kid turning pro is miniscue. All I ask is he strokes it like Fed.
 
3loudboys

3loudboys

G.O.A.T.
chic said:
Not saying it doesn't or can't exist, just that there's a reason many coaches will move grips more (semi)Western as a natural tendency. Also, by 12 I was like 5'6" and the relative height of the ball would have been manageable eastern. Heck I might have preferred flattening out my shots as an early bloomer height wise.

Very different than like 6yos
Click to expand...
Your absolutely right, Semi Westerns and slipped Semis toward Western are the main forehand grips with mini tennis players. I pity the coach who gets a player with a Hawaiian forehand grip. Try spelling that without spell checker.
 
3loudboys

3loudboys

G.O.A.T.
giantschwinn said:
It's completely the opposite. I put no pressure on my kid. I put the pressure on the coach to teach how I would like to see taught. The chance of my kid turning pro is miniscue. All I ask is he strokes it like Fed.
Click to expand...
Fair enough you are paying the bills after all and great that there is no outcome based pressure. Why like Fed and not other Pro's?
 
C

chic

Hall of Fame
giantschwinn said:
It's completely the opposite. I put no pressure on my kid. I put the pressure on the coach to teach how I would like to see taught. The chance of my kid turning pro is miniscue. All I ask is he strokes it like Fed.
Click to expand...
That's good then.

Like I said: I think as a coach i'd frankly tell you that my specialization is in teaching kids to be successful at tennis not at teaching kids how to emulate Federer. And that if you want a Federer coach and not a tennis coach you'll need to look elsewhere.

But different people may feel differently about that
 
3loudboys

3loudboys

G.O.A.T.
chic said:
That's good then.

Like I said: I think as a coach i'd frankly tell you that my specialization is in teaching kids to be successful at tennis not at teaching kids how to emulate Federer. And that if you want a Federer coach and not a tennis coach you'll need to look elsewhere.

But different people may feel differently about that
Click to expand...
I do feel more respect for a coach who will stand up and qualify their coaching philosophy in simple straight forward terms. You know where you stand then and can make a decision on the direction the instruction is going.
 
3loudboys

3loudboys

G.O.A.T.
chic said:
That's good then.

Like I said: I think as a coach i'd frankly tell you that my specialization is in teaching kids to be successful at tennis not at teaching kids how to emulate Federer. And that if you want a Federer coach and not a tennis coach you'll need to look elsewhere.

But different people may feel differently about that
Click to expand...
Where do you coach?
 
C

chic

Hall of Fame
3loudboys said:
I do feel more respect for a coach who will stand up and qualify their coaching philosophy in simple straight forward terms. You know where you stand then and can make a decision on the direction the instruction is going.
Click to expand...
I also feel more for tennis coaches where the instruction is more individual and it may harder to be as straightforward about it. Swim teams are often large enough to support themselves without worrying about losing a few people (and imo people who are up front about how they coach rather than marketing you often earn a reputation that brings people in).

Like, I mostly taught private lessons in college and occasionally helped with the larger team. But because of the #s we had if I turned away a particular parent they had plenty of other instructors to choose from at my facility let alone others, and I knew I'd always be able to get a different lesson, so no pay lost.
 
C

chic

Hall of Fame
3loudboys said:
Where do you coach?
Click to expand...
I was a swim instructor at Goucher college and Duanesburg area community center (which I now think is a YMCA).

Haven't coached in a couple years since I've been working and am now doing my masters. I'd love to pick it back up when I'm full time again as a highschool coach or something though.
 
J011yroger

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
giantschwinn said:
For example, grip change. Coach says the kid should go with Semi-Western but the parent wants to see eastern forehand grip. Parent is a Federer fan, can careless what's better for modern tennis. Parent wants to see a little Roger Federer clone.

What would you do if a coach and parent don't see eye to eye on something? I would love to hear from both coach and parent's perspectives.
Click to expand...

Interesting scenario, my opinion:

The parent is the customer, the parent tells the coach what they want the coach to do, period.

The coach, upon being told what the parent' s requirements are can either accept or decline to coach the kid.

The coach is the contractor, and it is his prerogative about how he accomplishes the task put before him. If the parent doesn't like the way the coach does his job, he can ask about it, or find another coach.

Examples:

1: Parent comes to the coach, and asks the coach to teach his kid to play like Federer, Eastern FH, OHBH, full motion serve, attacking tennis. He just wants his son to enjoy the game and play high school tennis and make varsity, but otherwise is ok with however good the kid turns out. Coach can say yes or no.

2: Parent comes to coach, says he wants his son to be a national tournament player and get a DI scholarship. Coach can say yes or no, if parent suggests technical or tactical changes the coach can explain why they are not ideal, and if the parent refuses to budge, the coach can accept or decline to make the changes or continue coaching.

In my personal experience:

Almost all issues come from a lack of communication and a lack of clarity W/R/T goals. A parent is a valuable asset, and yes the best parents leave you alone and let you do your job helping in the way they can, the worst parents try to tell you how to do your job, and un-do your work behind the scenes.

The worst parents are the "well I could coach him but," parents.

J
 
J011yroger

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
3loudboys said:
Your absolutely right, Semi Westerns and slipped Semis toward Western are the main forehand grips with mini tennis players. I pity the coach who gets a player with a Hawaiian forehand grip. Try spelling that without spell checker.
Click to expand...

It's so hard to drill out of them, the volume of dead ball drilling required is crippling to the development of the rest of their game. IMO I'd rather deal with a SW grip frying pan serve.

J
 
3loudboys

3loudboys

G.O.A.T.
chic said:
I was a swim instructor at Goucher college and Duanesburg area community center (which I now think is a YMCA).

Haven't coached in a couple years since I've been working and am now doing my masters. I'd love to pick it back up when I'm full time again as a highschool coach or something though.
Click to expand...
I think you should - I have a couple of boys who are coached and I like your philosophies on coaching. As a parent paying for a service then the open communication on development is very important.
 
G

giantschwinn

Semi-Pro
It's a real dicotomy. What I am finding with coach search is the really good ones (those with good track records) tend to be more stubborn and wants things their way or the highway. The anything goes ones are just in it for the money. I might just have to teach the Federer forehand and Djokovic backhands myself.
 
3loudboys

3loudboys

G.O.A.T.
J011yroger said:
Interesting scenario, my opinion:

The parent is the customer, the parent tells the coach what they want the coach to do, period.

The coach, upon being told what the parent' s requirements are can either accept or decline to coach the kid.

The coach is the contractor, and it is his prerogative about how he accomplishes the task put before him. If the parent doesn't like the way the coach does his job, he can ask about it, or find another coach.

Examples:

1: Parent comes to the coach, and asks the coach to teach his kid to play like Federer, Eastern FH, OHBH, full motion serve, attacking tennis. He just wants his son to enjoy the game and play high school tennis and make varsity, but otherwise is ok with however good the kid turns out. Coach can say yes or no.

2: Parent comes to coach, says he wants his son to be a national tournament player and get a DI scholarship. Coach can say yes or no, if parent suggests technical or tactical changes the coach can explain why they are not ideal, and if the parent refuses to budge, the coach can accept or decline to make the changes or continue coaching.

In my personal experience:

Almost all issues come from a lack of communication and a lack of clarity W/R/T goals. A parent is a valuable asset, and yes the best parents leave you alone and let you do your job helping in the way they can, the worst parents try to tell you how to do your job, and un-do your work behind the scenes.

The worst parents are the "well I could coach him but," parents.

J
Click to expand...
I think you nailed it - I've sat on both sides of the fence as well.

As a parent I look for a committed coach who is all about player development - I guess thats my reference to getting out there and watching the player in a tournament situation. For me the only way to truly evaluate how the training is progressing.
 
J011yroger

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
3loudboys said:
Completely agree. We parents take the kids to the tournaments and put the hard hours in with them after they have had their 1 hour individual technical lesson. For me coaches need to get out more often and watch the kids play in a tournament situation. How can a coach know that their teachings are effective if they do not take the time to watch their student compete and the technique in action? We can all modify technical aspects of our game in the comfort zone of a lesson or a hit. I have spoken with coaches about this several times and most argue they need payment for that time which I can understand to some extent. I counter it with the fact that all professionals do some unpaid overtime - its just the way of it.
Click to expand...

It takes 4 hours out of your day (at least) to go to a tournament and watch a match. Usually those four hours are during prime lesson time. So money aside, you are asking the coach to reschedule or cancel 4 hours of lessons, or have a program run down a coach shorting other kids what they paid for. Now nobody wants 4 hours of reschedules for one day, NOBODY. What happens when the other parents want you to watch their kids play in tournaments for free?

How would you react if (presuming you work) you were told to drop whatever you were doing for half a day and do something else for free, then figure out how to make up your lost work?

All pros do some unpaid overtime, but it comes in chunks of 15 minutes here, 30 minutes there, etc. it should not be expected. The pro doesn't walk up to the parent and say "give me $500." and when the parent argues that they have to give lessons counter with "all parents give bonuses - it's just the way of it."

J
 
3loudboys

3loudboys

G.O.A.T.
J011yroger said:
It's so hard to drill out of them, the volume of dead ball drilling required is crippling to the development of the rest of their game. IMO I'd rather deal with a SW grip frying pan serve.

J
Click to expand...
Unless you can afford multiple indi's per week and then the cost becomes prohibitive. I've seen a lot of juniors with massively neglected backhand sides that are so easily broken down in matches, at best a trading ball.
 
J011yroger

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
giantschwinn said:
It's a real dicotomy. What I am finding with coach search is the really good ones (those with good track records) tend to be more stubborn and wants things their way or the highway. The anything goes ones are just in it for the money. I might just have to teach the Federer forehand and Djokovic backhands myself.
Click to expand...

Imagine that, good coaches know what they are doing and want to continue doing it their way because it works.

Who would have thought?

J
 
heninfan99

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
I would be the general manager and bring in coaches for specific things for specific times.

The grip example: Kids aren't stupid(paraphrasing Yandell here), even if you teach them a more old school grip most will naturally move under the handle so to speak once they start competing.

You bring in a guy that's great with foot work, for strategy, for forehands, for kick serves. It's rare that a coach is great at teaching it all.

At the end of the day, it's you and your kid against the world. It's your money, and you're the one driving little Federer to tournaments. The world won't help you (unless you pull a Giorgi) and the USTA might ruin you. lol
 
Last edited:
LOBALOT

LOBALOT

Hall of Fame
I see this quite a bit. My perspective as a parent of a junior player is you spend time identifying a coach based on their knowledge, how they teach, and how their personality will mesh with your kid. Once you do that you have to step back and let them do what you hired them to do. It is hard as a parent as I think you get caught up on wanting to see your kid do well but in the end you have to internalize that and remind yourself to step back. If you don't the kid and your kid's coach will push back especially as they get older and you really don't want that.

The other thing I see that happens is if the parent is getting too involved the coach will check out on their kid and you really don't want that. I have seen coaches with back-to-back lessons. One kid the coach is engaged, working with them, etc. The very next lesson with the over-involved parent's kid they are going through the motions.

I would think the better more experienced coaches would know how to handle the situation though as I am sure it is not unique with "tennis parents". Usually, a quick discussion with the parent at the end of a lesson while they are picking up balls is all it takes. In fact, I think this is good practice for the coach to do after every lesson.
 
Last edited:
G

giantschwinn

Semi-Pro
Regarding coach watching players outside of the private lesson. It's super important. Before the shutdown, I took a chance and hired my kid's group lesson coach to give him privates. Will continue after it reopens and see how it goes.
 
G

giantschwinn

Semi-Pro
heninfan99 said:
I would be the general manager and bring in coaches for specific things for specific times.

The grip example: Kids aren't stupid, even if you teach them a more old school grip most will naturally move under the handle so to speak once they start competing.

You bring in a guy that's great with foot work, for strategy, for forehands, for kick serves. It's rare that a coach is great at teaching it all.

At the end of the day, it's you and your kid against the world. It's your money, and you're the one driving little Federer to tournaments. The world won't help you (unless you pull a Giorgi) and the USTA might ruin you. lol
Click to expand...
So true. Watch this video if you are bored.
 
3loudboys

3loudboys

G.O.A.T.
J011yroger said:
It takes 4 hours out of your day (at least) to go to a tournament and watch a match. Usually those four hours are during prime lesson time. So money aside, you are asking the coach to reschedule or cancel 4 hours of lessons, or have a program run down a coach shorting other kids what they paid for. Now nobody wants 4 hours of reschedules for one day, NOBODY. What happens when the other parents want you to watch their kids play in tournaments for free?

How would you react if (presuming you work) you were told to drop whatever you were doing for half a day and do something else for free, then figure out how to make up your lost work?

All pros do some unpaid overtime, but it comes in chunks of 15 minutes here, 30 minutes there, etc. it should not be expected. The pro doesn't walk up to the parent and say "give me $500." and when the parent argues that they have to give lessons counter with "all parents give bonuses - it's just the way of it."

J
Click to expand...
There are ways around that and sometimes the tournaments can be longer than 4 hours although you don't need to stay to watch all 3 matches in the day. The tournaments are not always at peak lesson times and you can schedule around that dependent on what your busy days are. Good coaches my sons have worked with will pick tournaments to attend that have more than just one of their students entered providing them with the opportunity to watch all of them. As a professional - I see that as an opportunity to review my work and invest in the good will of my client. Checking the results online does not tell you how the matches went nor how they played.

In answer to your question I am regularly multi tasking and asked to switch tasks for not just half a day but for multiple days. Flexible working is a necessity in the 21st Century, especially when you are a service provider in a competitive field. And the unpaid overtime can be a half a day Sunday or like yesterday I logged into work and started at 7.30am and finished 8.00pm - thats a 12.5 hour day that I get paid for 7 hours. I do what is necessary to complete my job.
 
J011yroger

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
LOBALOT said:
I see this quite a bit. My perspective as a parent of a junior player is you spend time identifying a coach based on their knowledge, how they teach, and how their personality will mesh with your kid. Once you do that you have to step back and let them do what you hired them to do. It is hard as a parent as I think you get caught up on wanting to see your kid do well but in the end you have to internalize that and remind yourself to step back. If you don't the kid and your kid's coach will push back especially as they get older and you really don't want that.

The other thing I see that happens is if the parent is getting to involved the coach will check out on their kid and you really don't want that. I have seen coaches with back-to-back lessons. One kid the coach is engaged, working with them, etc. The very next lesson with the over-involved parent's kid they are going through the motions.

I would think the better more experienced coaches would know how to handle the situation though as I am sure it is not unique with "tennis parents". Usually, a quick discussion with the parent at the end of a lesson while they are picking up balls is all it takes. In fact, I think this is good practice for the coach to do after every lesson.
Click to expand...

There is tons of stuff a parent can do to be a huge help, being an additional coach is rarely one of them.

J
 
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