When coach and parent don't agree on something....

[3loudboys]

Almost 40 and I've still got it!

J

Teach me!

 

[J011yroger]

There are ways around that and sometimes the tournaments can be longer than 4 hours although you don't need to stay to watch all 3 matches in the day. The tournaments are not always at peak lesson times and you can schedule around that dependent on what your busy days are. Good coaches my sons have worked with will pick tournaments to attend that have more than just one of their students entered providing them with the opportunity to watch all of them. As a professional - I see that as an opportunity to review my work and invest in the good will of my client. Checking the results online does not tell you how the matches went nor how they played.

In answer to your question I am regularly multi tasking and asked to switch tasks for not just half a day but for multiple days. Flexible working is a necessity in the 21st Century, especially when you are a service provider in a competitive field. And the unpaid overtime can be a half a day Sunday or like yesterday I logged into work and started at 7.30am and finished 8.00pm - thats a 12.5 hour day that I get paid for 7 hours. I do what is necessary to complete my job.

Sure, there are lots of times it happens and ways to do it, but to request or expect it is absurd unless you are coaching a kid full-time. It should be within the umbrella of the coaches plan for each student.

J

 

[J011yroger]

Teach me!

It's all in the wrist.

J

 

[3loudboys]

Sure, there are lots of times it happens and ways to do it, but to request or expect it is absurd unless you are coaching a kid full-time. It should be within the umbrella of the coaches plan for each student.

J

Hardly an absurdity but I take your point. Rearranging schedules is tough which is why the smart coaches go watch multiple students in a tournament.

 

[giantschwinn]

lol I've watched it 3 times when it was first released It's a great video to show that a child doesn't need to be home schooled to be a great player even today.

My biggest fear is letting my kid go all in on tennis and f*ck his life and he has nothing to fall back on. Watch "Jan: Challenge at the net" on Prime if you want to see what I mean.

 

[J011yroger]

I would be the general manager and bring in coaches for specific things for specific times.

The grip example: Kids aren't stupid(paraphrasing Yandell here), even if you teach them a more old school grip most will naturally move under the handle so to speak once they start competing.

You bring in a guy that's great with foot work, for strategy, for forehands, for kick serves. It's rare that a coach is great at teaching it all.

At the end of the day, it's you and your kid against the world. It's your money, and you're the one driving little Federer to tournaments. The world won't help you (unless you pull a Giorgi) and the USTA might ruin you. lol

J

 

[heninfan99]

Eastern grip doesn't cut it any more.

Did you see RBA crush Kyrgios at ATP Cup?

 

[heninfan99]

J

bitter coach detected

 

[3loudboys]

Great perspectives from both sides in this thread.

 

[J011yroger]

Hardly an absurdity but I take your point. Rearranging schedules is tough which is why the smart coaches go watch multiple students in a tournament.

If your kid takes 1 private per week and you ask me to go watch them in a tournament for half my Saturday, that's absurd. If I am coaching them 6 hours a week I will find a way to get to see them. If there is a tournament where three of my students are playing, I will get there if I can. If they are playing at my club and I am there I will go watch as much as possible.

Same as someone buying 6 racquets from me getting a better deal than someone buying one.

"Why did you give Jane a free bag and not me?"

Because Jane bought 6 racquets, duh.

J

 

[J011yroger]

bitter coach detected

*bitter student

J

 

[heninfan99]

*bitter student

J

the bitter student becomes the rich parent, calls the shots

 

[J011yroger]

the bitter student becomes the rich parent, calls the shots

I'm not rich or a parent.

J

 

[chic]

@J011yroger @3loudboys

This actually seems like an example of a great place for the parent to get involved. Setting up a go pro if the other kids parents are ok with it and editing down the video afterward so the coach can view it later. Or even just tracking the match and handing the data over.

Expecting a coach to abandon their livelihood to go watch tourney more than ocassionally isn't super realistic. Expecting them to go over what happened in a match outside of lesson hours seems more reasonable imo if it's made available to them.

 

[giantschwinn]

Work must be slow for everybody. Oh, it's Friday!

 

[3loudboys]

If your kid takes 1 private per week and you ask me to go watch them in a tournament for half my Saturday, that's absurd. If I am coaching them 6 hours a week I will find a way to get to see them. If there is a tournament where three of my students are playing, I will get there if I can. If they are playing at my club and I am there I will go watch as much as possible.

Same as someone buying 6 racquets from me getting a better deal than someone buying one.

"Why did you give Jane a free bag and not me?"

Because Jane bought 6 racquets, duh.

J

Accept the volume argument 100%. We discussed that you don't need to spend 4 hours watching them - your choice if you want, just pick a local venue.

If you have a student for 1 hour per week that is playing a tournament at your home club or just around the corner locally - wouldn't you WANT to watch them? Even if its just to evaluate how your methods work in a game situation.

 

[3loudboys]

@J011yroger @3loudboys

This actually seems like an example of a great place for the parent to get involved. Setting up a go pro if the other kids parents are ok with it and editing down the video afterward so the coach can view it later. Or even just tracking the match and handing the data over.

Expecting a coach to abandon their livelihood to go watch tourney more than ocassionally isn't super realistic. Expecting them to go over what happened in a match outside of lesson hours seems more reasonable imo if it's made available to them.

Sounds like a sensible suggestion and I wasn't suggesting going to see the kids every week. Twice a year hopefully doesn't overly intrude on the diary and as a professional surely would like to see how your students are doing? Like I said in earlier posts I have experience of coaches who really want to see player development in the arena they are trained for.

 

[heninfan99]

I'm not rich or a parent.

J

we know your role in this, already established

 

[giantschwinn]

A few weeks ago, I saw some UTR 11 kids hitting with their coach. I approached the coach and asked for his number. He gave me a sales pitch and one of the things he mentioned is he goes to kids matches and doesn't charge for going to the matches. My kid is not at the stage yet but I think for older competitive kids it's very important that the coach does that.

The guy probably has 3-4 kids in the tournament so he isn't going there just for one kid...

 

[chic]

Sounds like a sensible suggestion and I wasn't suggesting going to see the kids every week. Twice a year hopefully doesn't overly intrude on the diary and as a professional surely would like to see how your students are doing? Like I said in earlier posts I have experience of coaches who really want to see player development in the arena they are trained for.

Just depends on number of students and age differences. If you have 16 students going to 2-3 different local tournaments: worthy time investment. If you have the same amount living in different districts and only 1-3 will be at a given tournament. That's still 6-10 /52 weekends a year of lost income. Which stacks up quick if you take any vacation and lose days for Holidays

 

[J011yroger]

Work must be slow for everybody. Oh, it's Friday!

Work?

J

 

[J011yroger]

Accept the volume argument 100%. We discussed that you don't need to spend 4 hours watching them - your choice if you want, just pick a local venue.

If you have a student for 1 hour per week that is playing a tournament at your home club or just around the corner locally - wouldn't you WANT to watch them? Even if its just to evaluate how your methods work in a game situation.

Yep, 100%

J

 

[3loudboys]

A few weeks ago, I saw some UTR 11 kids hitting with their coach. I approached the coach and asked for his number. He gave me a sales pitch and one of the things he mentioned is he goes to kids matches and doesn't charge for going to the matches. My kid is not at the stage yet but I think for older competitive kids it's very important that the coach does that.

Sounds like he's a forward thinking business man and interested coach.

 

[J011yroger]

He gave me a sales pitch

Barf.

J

 

[LOBALOT]

There is tons of stuff a parent can do to be a huge help, being an additional coach is rarely one of them.

J

Yes. I also don't think I can expect a coach to take time out of their busy schedule to come see my kid play a tournament match. I know my son's primary coach is lined up back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-back. If each one of these parents expect the coach to come see their kid play I am not sure how that would work and of course do it without canceling one of the other kids.... who also want the coach to come see their kid play.... etc... etc..

This is especially the case when the kid is younger as the coach is more of a technician if I can call it that. The coach will know if the kids backhand needs work from the lesson and they don't need to go to a match to see that.

That said as my son has gotten older we actually have developed more of a team around him and they all communicate with each other. One of them recently graduated from D1 tennis and he works a lot with my son on diet, match strategy, how he approaches the game, etc. He is a bit cheaper than his primary coach and he does come to watch my son play. Note what he is working with my son on necessitates that he come.

I think if a parent is looking to have a coach come see their kid play and work on how they perform during a match this has been an affective and more affordable approach for us.

 

[chic]

I think you should - I have a couple of boys who are coached and I like your philosophies on coaching. As a parent paying for a service then the open communication on development is very important.

I'd really like to get involved in swim or tennis in this aspect. It's just a lot with a 40-50 hour workweek and commuting

Maybe of we all push for workers rights and increased work from home post COVID I'll be able to

 

[J011yroger]

we know your role in this, already established

I'm the anti-hero right?

J

 

[3loudboys]

I'd really like to get involved in swim or tennis in this aspect. It's just a lot with a 40-50 hour workweek and commuting

Maybe of we all push for workers rights and increased work from home post COVID I'll be able to

100% - you have my vote right now.

 

[chic]

I'm the anti-hero right?

J

Would you have it any other way?

 

[3loudboys]

Yes. I also don't think I can expect a coach to take time out of their busy schedule to come see my kid play a tournament match. I know my son's primary coach is lined up back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-back. If each one of these parents expect the coach to come see their kid play I am not sure how that would work and of course do it without canceling one of the other kids.... who also want the coach to come see their kid play.... etc... etc..

This is especially the case when the kid is younger as the coach is more of a technician if I can call it that. The coach will know if the kids backhand needs work from the lesson and they don't need to go to a match to see that.

That said as my son has gotten older we actually have developed more of a team around him and they all communicate with each other. One of them recently graduated from D1 tennis and he works a lot with my son on diet, match strategy, how he approaches the game, etc. He is a bit cheaper than his primary coach and he does come to watch my son play. Note what he is working with my son on necessitates that he come.

I think if a parent is looking to come see their kid play and work on how they perform during a match this has been an affective and more affordable approach for us.

So important for the coach to see the player compete.

 

[3loudboys]

I'm the anti-hero right?

J

Boo - you have adopted the role of pantomime villain effortlessly.

 

[chic]

Yes. I also don't think I can expect a coach to take time out of their busy schedule to come see my kid play a tournament match. I know my son's primary coach is lined up back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-back. If each one of these parents expect the coach to come see their kid play I am not sure how that would work and of course do it without canceling one of the other kids.... who also want the coach to come see their kid play.... etc... etc..

This is especially the case when the kid is younger as the coach is more of a technician if I can call it that. The coach will know if the kids backhand needs work from the lesson and they don't need to go to a match to see that.

That said as my son has gotten older we actually have developed more of a team around him and they all communicate with each other. One of them recently graduated from D1 tennis and he works a lot with my son on diet, match strategy, how he approaches the game, etc. He is a bit cheaper than his primary coach and he does come to watch my son play. Note what he is working with my son on necessitates that he come.

I think if a parent is looking to have a coach come see their kid play and work on how they perform during a match this has been an affective and more affordable approach for us.

I think age is also an important factor here.far less important the younger they are

 

[heninfan99]

I'm the anti-hero right?

J

If JoeDali is Tango, I guess you're Cash?

 

[J011yroger]

Yes. I also don't think I can expect a coach to take time out of their busy schedule to come see my kid play a tournament match. I know my son's primary coach is lined up back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-back. If each one of these parents expect the coach to come see their kid play I am not sure how that would work and of course do it without canceling one of the other kids.... who also want the coach to come see their kid play.... etc... etc..

This is especially the case when the kid is younger as the coach is more of a technician if I can call it that. The coach will know if the kids backhand needs work from the lesson and they don't need to go to a match to see that.

That said as my son has gotten older we actually have developed more of a team around him and they all communicate with each other. One of them recently graduated from D1 tennis and he works a lot with my son on diet, match strategy, how he approaches the game, etc. He is a bit cheaper than his primary coach and he does come to watch my son play. Note what he is working with my son on necessitates that he come.

I think if a parent is looking to have a coach come see their kid play and work on how they perform during a match this has been an affective and more affordable approach for us.

In an ideal world the student would have a coach, a hitting partner slightly better than them who serves as the coach's assistant, and a physical trainer. The coach should be able to do all three jobs (except maybe as a hitter if he is older or as the student gets very good) but it's a better allocation of time and resources if he doesn't. If the coach is a good coach he knows his strengths and weaknesses and will ask his colleagues for help W/R/T certain areas or have the student train with others to shore up weak points. This is similar to what @heninfan99 suggested but it usually doesn't work when the parent does the organizing.

But who could afford that? The time and monetary costs are staggering so everyone ends up cutting corners and cobbling the stuff together, and what you do with what you have determines how good you get.

J

 

[3loudboys]

In an ideal world the student would have a coach, a hitting partner slightly better than them who serves as the coach's assistant, and a physical trainer. The coach should be able to do all three jobs (except maybe as a hitter if he is older or as the student gets very good) but it's a better allocation of time and resources if he doesn't. If the coach is a good coach he knows his strengths and weaknesses and will ask his colleagues for help W/R/T certain areas or have the student train with others to shore up weak points. This is similar to what @heninfan99 suggested but it usually doesn't work when the parent does the organizing.

But who could afford that? The time and monetary costs are staggering so everyone ends up cutting corners and cobbling the stuff together, and what you do with what you have determines how good you get.

J

Its my second mortgage

 

[J011yroger]

If JoeDali is Tango, I guess you're Cash?

Joal is most certainly not Tango. Ray Tango would never drink a Malibu pineapple.

J

 

[chic]

In an ideal world the student would have a coach, a hitting partner slightly better than them who serves as the coach's assistant, and a physical trainer. The coach should be able to do all three jobs (except maybe as a hitter if he is older or as the student gets very good) but it's a better allocation of time and resources if he doesn't. If the coach is a good coach he knows his strengths and weaknesses and will ask his colleagues for help W/R/T certain areas or have the student train with others to shore up weak points. This is similar to what @heninfan99 suggested but it usually doesn't work when the parent does the organizing.

But who could afford that? The time and monetary costs are staggering so everyone ends up cutting corners and cobbling the stuff together, and what you do with what you have determines how good you get.

J

Yeah this is why the structure of swim is so much better. Head coach, age group coaches, and assistant coaches all common on any decent sized team. And trainers and workout specialists or coaches who are certified as such.

But you can fit 70+ kids in a 6 lane 25 yd pool. Tennis just can't match that even with 3 courts and maintain productivity.

 

[giantschwinn]

The bottom line is you are not there and the other coach is there to watch the match. If your kid wins, fine. If your kid loses, the parent is going to ask the coach for his number and the other coach is going to give a sales pitch on how he goes to all his kids matches.

 

[chic]

The bottom line is you are not there and the other coach is there to watch the match. If your kid wins, fine. If your kid loses, the parent is going to ask the coach for his number and the other coach is going to give a sales pitch on how he goes to all his kids matches.

Meh I disagree. If you have the results most parents won't get poached this way.

 

[giantschwinn]

Those who take one lesson a week from you will. Those who's been with you since age 6 probably won't. But you never know...

 

[J011yroger]

The bottom line is you are not there and the other coach is there to watch the match. If your kid wins, fine. If your kid loses, the parent is going to ask the coach for his number and the other coach is going to give a sales pitch on how he goes to all his kids matches.

Bottom line is good coaches don't go to tournaments and try to poach kids.

J

 

[LOBALOT]

I think age is also an important factor here.far less important the younger they are

I agree!!!!

In an ideal world the student would have a coach, a hitting partner slightly better than them who serves as the coach's assistant, and a physical trainer. The coach should be able to do all three jobs (except maybe as a hitter if he is older or as the student gets very good) but it's a better allocation of time and resources if he doesn't. If the coach is a good coach he knows his strengths and weaknesses and will ask his colleagues for help W/R/T certain areas or have the student train with others to shore up weak points. This is similar to what @heninfan99 suggested but it usually doesn't work when the parent does the organizing.

But who could afford that? The time and monetary costs are staggering so everyone ends up cutting corners and cobbling the stuff together, and what you do with what you have determines how good you get.

J

I think it has worked for us and as a parent I do keep it straight. You are correct it is expensive but at the same time if it were the other way and we were expecting his primary coach to go to his matches there would be expense involved as well and the hourly rate for the coach is higher.

We are not wealthy so have had to work hard to help my son and also cut corners on expense where we can (Like buying a stringer and stringing his racquets). I think the coaching team approach has worked for us as it allows us to utilize the expensive resources on developing his skills and relatively lower cost resources for items that take more time (like match hitting, watching him play, reporting back to coach).

It gets back to cost being a barrier to growing tennis. It ain't cheap!

 

[3loudboys]

Just depends on number of students and age differences. If you have 16 students going to 2-3 different local tournaments: worthy time investment. If you have the same amount living in different districts and only 1-3 will be at a given tournament. That's still 6-10 /52 weekends a year of lost income. Which stacks up quick if you take any vacation and lose days for Holidays

Yes fair points - you would prioritise your students by level and number of hours as accept that you can only give so much.

 

[3loudboys]

I agree!!!!


I think it has worked for us and as a parent I do keep it straight. You are correct it is expensive but at the same time if it were the other way and we were expecting his primary coach to go to his matches there would be expense involved as well and the hourly rate for the coach is higher.

We are not wealthy so have had to work hard to help my son and also cut corners on expense where we can (Like buying a stringer and stringing his racquets). I think the coaching team approach has worked for us as it allows us to utilize the expensive resources on developing his skills and relatively lower cost resources for items that take more time (like match hitting, watching him play, reporting back to coach).

It gets back to cost being a barrier to growing tennis. It ain't cheap!

Solidarity brother.

 

[giantschwinn]

A parent wants to see you as invested as they are in their kid's tennis. If you are not there while the other guy is there, it just makes you look bad. Especially when the parent asks you to teach Federer forehand and you insisted on teaching semi western.

 

[3loudboys]

A parent wants to see you as invested as they are in their kid's tennis.

This part sums it up - you want the coach as enthusiastic on the child's tennis and development as you are.

 

[chic]

A parent wants to see you as invested as they are in their kid's tennis. If you are not there while the other guy is there, it just makes you look bad. Especially when the parent asks you to teach Federer forehand and you insisted on teaching semi western.

Right but as we've established, you don't want a tennis coach you want a Federer coach

 

[J011yroger]

I agree!!!!


I think it has worked for us and as a parent I do keep it straight. You are correct it is expensive but at the same time if it were the other way and we were expecting his primary coach to go to his matches there would be expense involved as well and the hourly rate for the coach is higher.

We are not wealthy so have had to work hard to help my son and also cut corners on expense where we can (Like buying a stringer and stringing his racquets). I think the coaching team approach has worked for us as it allows us to utilize the expensive resources on developing his skills and relatively lower cost resources for items that take more time (like match hitting, watching him play, reporting back to coach).

It gets back to cost being a barrier to growing tennis. It ain't cheap!

One of the best things Lansdorp ever said was that champions are built 1 on 1, over hours and hours.

The volume of work and coaching required to reach potential is absolutely staggering.

We are all doing the best we can but I would hazard that 99%+ are limited by time and coaching rather than ability.

J

 

[heninfan99]

In an ideal world the student would have a coach, a hitting partner slightly better than them who serves as the coach's assistant, and a physical trainer. The coach should be able to do all three jobs (except maybe as a hitter if he is older or as the student gets very good) but it's a better allocation of time and resources if he doesn't. If the coach is a good coach he knows his strengths and weaknesses and will ask his colleagues for help W/R/T certain areas or have the student train with others to shore up weak points. This is similar to what @heninfan99 suggested but it usually doesn't work when the parent does the organizing.

But who could afford that? The time and monetary costs are staggering so everyone ends up cutting corners and cobbling the stuff together, and what you do with what you have determines how good you get.

J

It must be done this way unless you send your kid to someone like Todd Widom but he only takes 12 kids at a time. Very view coaches can teach everything a kid needs from 6 to 16 yr. You mentioned bringing in colleagues...well, yeah, of course. This must be done.

And it's going to be expensive anyway you go. My way would be for my kid and it's worked for many.
It's up to every parent to decide how to spend their money and raise their kid.

I won't name names but I see massive holes in the up & coming coaches locally and online. They can be great specialists though.

 

[3loudboys]

It must be done this way unless you send your kid to someone like Todd Widom but he only takes 12 kids at a time. Very view coaches can teach everything a kid needs from 6 to 16 yr. You mentioned bringing in colleagues...well, yeah, of course. This must be done.

And it's going to be expensive anyway you go. My way would be for my kid and it's worked for many.
It's up to every parent to decide how to spend their money and raise their kid.

I've always wanted to ask - have you got a one handed backhand like Justines?

Off topic but I need to know.