Pushers follow same winning principle as anyone including pros!

user92626

user92626

G.O.A.T.
pencilcheck said:
The simple strategy against pusher is to have footwork, and move and don't get lazy. I shared a vid hopefully to shed some light on how to beat pusher, they are not that scary.
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This doesn't address the problem that players cannot, doesn't know how to, swing at the ball. Oftentimes you see players already there but swing the ball out or into the net.

Also, how do you solve the impatience problem? Footwork, don't be lazy will make hasty players patient?
 
Z

zaph

Professional
user92626 said:
This doesn't address the problem that players cannot, doesn't know how to, swing at the ball. Oftentimes you see players already there but swing the ball out or into the net.

Also, how do you solve the impatience problem? Footwork, don't be lazy will make hasty players patient?
Click to expand...

My solution is not to hit the ball too hard. It seems to work.
 
StringSnapper

StringSnapper

Hall of Fame
ByeByePoly said:
Racquets are like wives ... it's NEVER their fault ... and there will be times you get the silent treatment.
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How do racquets give you the silent treatment?

Maybe in your generation this was a good tactic. But now for me, the dynamics between men and women seem different. Dunno, maybe it's the increase in feminism

Women are fallible humans just like men. But I think we have different desires, so there has to be compromise to make it work. It seems like women want to melt together with someone. But I really like myself and I dont want to risk tainting my own purity hahaha, okay it's more like authenticity. Don't want my authenticity to be tainted.

I dont see the point of getting married outside of having kids right now
 
ByeByePoly

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
StringSnapper said:
How do racquets give you the silent treatment?

Maybe in your generation this was a good tactic. But now for me, the dynamics between men and women seem different. Dunno, maybe it's the increase in feminism

Women are fallible humans just like men. But I think we have different desires, so there has to be compromise to make it work. It seems like women want to melt together with someone. But I really like myself and I dont want to risk tainting my own purity hahaha, okay it's more like authenticity. Don't want my authenticity to be tainted.

I dont see the point of getting married outside of having kids right now
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You are taking my jokes way too seriously. 8-B
 
M

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
Regardless of the obsession with offense on these boards, at every level what you need first and foremost is the ability to handle the pace and heaviness of the majority of your opponent’s shots at that level. Defense lets you legitimately belong at a given level. The exception to this rule is if you have a blitzkrieg serve that masks your defensive weaknesses.

Offense to finally break down players who can defend at your level is what lets you get ahead. However it is easier said than done since offense has always a higher margin for errors than does defense.
 
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M

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
zaph said:
The objective of sports competition is to win and one way of winning is to work harder than your opponent. This works in plenty of sports, Liverpool just won the league based party on running further and working harder than their opponents. In tennis many of the top players are covering a lot of ground and one of their advantages is their exceptional fitness.

If I am fitter and faster than the person I am playing, I would be daft not to use that advantage. Plus everytime I retrieve another ball, my opponent still has to hit it, even if they are not covering the same amount of ground as me. Playing all those extra shots is still mentally and physically draining for them.

I am small, lightly built and fast. It doesn't take much energy for me to cover the court. I play to my strengths. Your advice is like telling a big powerful player not to use their power because not every player can do that. You play to your strengths and one of mine is court coverage.
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Plus who am I to tell someone else who beat me that they should be playing a different style? Would be sour grapes.
 
user92626

user92626

G.O.A.T.
StringSnapper said:
I'm having deep reflections on philosophical concepts. What else is a tennis forum for?!
Click to expand...

WOOWHOOO I finally achieved something in here.

I don't post, reply technical stuff in this place. (It's beneath me if you need to know why.)

I only like to talk and inspire philosophical concepts.


tenor.png
 
user92626

user92626

G.O.A.T.
StringSnapper said:
How do racquets give you the silent treatment?

Maybe in your generation this was a good tactic. But now for me, the dynamics between men and women seem different. Dunno, maybe it's the increase in feminism

Women are fallible humans just like men. But I think we have different desires, so there has to be compromise to make it work. It seems like women want to melt together with someone. But I really like myself and I dont want to risk tainting my own purity hahaha, okay it's more like authenticity. Don't want my authenticity to be tainted.

I dont see the point of getting married outside of having kids right now
Click to expand...
I can't tell if this post is from a man or a woman. It's soo fluid. A true sign of the genderless era :)

@ByeByePoly can you help?
 
Curious

Curious

G.O.A.T.
@user92626 ,
How much does a player try to force the opponent to make an error, make them uncomfortable?
Can that be used as a gauge for the degree of pushing?
Put it this way, are pushers the masters of neutral shots, shots that have no real intention to cause harm?
 
user92626

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Curious said:
@user92626 ,
How much does a player try to force the opponent to make an error, make them uncomfortable?
Can that be used as a gauge for the degree of pushing?

Put it this way, are pushers the masters of neutral shots, shots that have no real intention to cause harm?
Click to expand...
That would be very subjective though. So subjective that it'd be ungaugeable. You may think that pushers aren't doing anything to force errors from opponents, but that's not true.

Every shot pusher gets back is to force their opponent to hit one more and alot of time pushees just cannot handle one more shot.


And then sometimes just the sight of pushers and their styles would force people to convulsion and make errors. Don't forget that.



"The Master appears not doing anything but the work gets done"


Let me reiterate my tip, every player wins by making his opponent uncomfortable. Uncomfortable to hit, to run, to maintain focus, and thus break down. Pushers are no different. They win by the same tactic; ie making their opponent very uncomfortable in hitting one more shot.
 
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Curious

Curious

G.O.A.T.
user92626 said:
Every shot pusher gets back is to force their opponent to hit one more and alot of time pushees just cannot handle one more shot.
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That's not real forcing though. That's forcing someone to make unforced error!
In other words, a pusher is not forcing you to make a forced error.
 
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Z

zaph

Professional
Curious said:
That's not real forcing though. That's forcing someone to make unforced error!
In other words, a pusher is not forcing you to make a forced error.
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They are applying pressure. Their opponent finds the ball is constantly coming back and then means they start to overplay in desperation.

Besides the difference between a forced and unforced error is pretty blurred at amateur levels. Two aggressive players are hitting big shots at each other and one of them hits a huge shot into the corner. It wins the point because their opponent is off balance when they get there and misses the reply. So a forced error or is it?

Someone with my pusher mentality just does every they can to get that same ball back. Squash shot it, scoop it or block it back into play. The aggressive player had the option to hit the same defensive shot, so surely not do so was an unforced error?
 
P

PKorda

Professional
Curious said:
That's not real forcing though. That's forcing someone to make unforced error!
In other words, a pusher is not forcing you to make a forced error.
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Seems like semantics. Forcing someone to hit one more ball is forcing an error
 
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Dartagnan64

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
PKorda said:
Seems like semantics. Forcing someone to hit one more ball is forcing an error
Click to expand...

zaph said:
Two aggressive players are hitting big shots at each other and one of them hits a huge shot into the corner. It wins the point because their opponent is off balance when they get there and misses the reply. So a forced error or is it?
Click to expand...

user92626 said:
That would be very subjective though. So subjective that it'd be ungaugeable. You may think that pushers aren't doing anything to force errors from opponents, but that's not true.

Every shot pusher gets back is to force their opponent to hit one more and alot of time pushees just cannot handle one more shot.
Click to expand...

Tennis has a definition of unforced error: an error by a player who has adequate time and space to make a shot back into the court. A winner is a shot that goes past the opponent without being touched. All other points are forced errors.

It is always the expectation that a player can return a ball for which he has time and space to do so, whether it's the first ball or 30th ball in a rally.

In reality it is quite easy to judge whether a player is setup in time to hit a shot back and when he is not so statisticians can easily keep this stat without it being overly subjective. It's not like trying to judge figure skating.

Bottom line is that a pusher does not force errors, they always give the opponent time and space to make a reply into the court. They feast on unforced errors because humans are imperfect beings and will commit errors even when unforced. Doesn't change the definitions though.
 
P

PKorda

Professional
Dartagnan64 said:
Tennis has a definition of unforced error: an error by a player who has adequate time and space to make a shot back into the court. A winner is a shot that goes past the opponent without being touched. All other points are forced errors.

It is always the expectation that a player can return a ball for which he has time and space to do so, whether it's the first ball or 30th ball in a rally.

In reality it is quite easy to judge whether a player is setup in time to hit a shot back and when he is not so statisticians can easily keep this stat without it being overly subjective. It's not like trying to judge figure skating.

Bottom line is that a pusher does not force errors, they always give the opponent time and space to make a reply into the court. They feast on unforced errors because humans are imperfect beings and will commit errors even when unforced. Doesn't change the definitions though.
Click to expand...
I don’t think it’s a cut and dry as you say. After being moved around the court for 20 balls and someone misses on the 21st that is a different kind of unforced error than someone hitting it into the net on the second ball
 
user92626

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Dartagnan64 said:
Tennis has a definition of unforced error: an error by a player who has adequate time and space to make a shot back into the court. A winner is a shot that goes past the opponent without being touched. All other points are forced errors.

It is always the expectation that a player can return a ball for which he has time and space to do so, whether it's the first ball or 30th ball in a rally.

In reality it is quite easy to judge whether a player is setup in time to hit a shot back and when he is not so statisticians can easily keep this stat without it being overly subjective. It's not like trying to judge figure skating.

Bottom line is that a pusher does not force errors, they always give the opponent time and space to make a reply into the court. They feast on unforced errors because humans are imperfect beings and will commit errors even when unforced. Doesn't change the definitions though.
Click to expand...

It still can be argued what "adequate time and space" means. I bet it means very different things to different people. I mean, 1 ms might be adequate for one, but woefully inadequate for the next person.

For any player worth his salt, given adequate time and space to his liking he's gonna rarely miss the shot. When he missed it's always because he is out of time, bad timing with the ball, weird, inadequate space between him and the ball.

The first axiom of sports, and tennis is no different, is a competition in speed. That's basically taking time from your opponent so he'll lose. That's all.
 
Curious

Curious

G.O.A.T.
user92626 said:
It still can be argued what "adequate time and space" means. I bet it means very different things to different people. I mean, 1 ms might be adequate for one, but woefully inadequate for the next person.

For any player worth his salt, given adequate time and space to his liking he's gonna rarely miss the shot. When he missed it's always because he is out of time, bad timing with the ball, weird, inadequate space between him and the ball.

The first axiom of sports, and tennis is no different, is a competition in speed. That's basically taking time from your opponent so he'll lose. That's all.
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I feel like you almost want to say there’s no such thing as unforced error in tennis!
 
user92626

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Curious said:
I feel like you almost want to say there’s no such thing as unforced error in tennis!
Click to expand...
If you want the concepts of unforce error and force error to exist for some purpose, then they exist for you.

For me it's silly. Tennis is a direct engagement competition between two individual. It's not like golf.

So when you step on the course your opponent already has an influence or a say in your performance. Do you really do anything in tennis in a vacuum, irrespective of opponent? No.
 
Curious

Curious

G.O.A.T.
user92626 said:
If you want the concepts of unforce error and force error to exist for some purpose, then they exist for you.

For me it's silly. Tennis is a direct engagement competition between two individual. It's not like golf.

So when you step on the course your opponent already has an influence or a say in your performance. Do you really do anything in tennis in a vacuum, irrespective of opponent? No.
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I suspect you tend to have high numbers of unforced errors. Correct?
And you want to believe that they’re forced errors.8-B
 
user92626

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Curious said:
I suspect you tend to have high numbers of unforced errors. Correct?
And you want to believe that they’re forced errors.8-B
Click to expand...
Yes. If that helps you to make sense of what you want to believe. Whatever it is. I'm not cruel. I don't want you to feel lost and confused. :)

Most of the time in matches, like today, I'm just too tired to think and categorize different errors.

Hey, is it crazy to play singles when it's 93F outside (probably hotter in the court)?
 
Curious

Curious

G.O.A.T.
user92626 said:
Most of the time in matches, like today, I'm just too tired to think and categorize different errors.
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Make it simple. It’s no rocket science. You have 3 options, not 133!
-Hit a winner
-Hit a neutral ball back
-Hit a ball to put some pressure on the opponent.
Now, to know which one, you need to be smart and calm. I was neither for a long time. Guess what, when I improved the former, the latter got better as well. That’s about it.
 
user92626

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Curious said:
Make it simple. It’s no rocket science. You have 3 options, not 133!
-Hit a winner
-Hit a neutral ball back
-Hit a ball to put some pressure on the opponent.
Now, to know which one, you need to be smart and calm. That’s about it.
Click to expand...
Plus, the 3Fs,

and The ISR, ESR, hammering style. Was my racket dropped on edge or facing the sky? Some muther on TT was advising me that it's very important for power!!!

Is it really sportsmanship to hit my ball there? I better not or I won't be able to show my face in TT again!

Is that a slow ball that I need to move faster? Is this too fast?

Last but not least, my own thoughts... why am I trying so hard when there's no chicks around to show off!!? How many bounces does this fuker needs before serving? Hurry up already.

It's like a godddamn circus in my head.
 
StringSnapper

StringSnapper

Hall of Fame
user92626 said:
Plus, the 3Fs,

and The ISR, ESR, hammering style. Was my racket dropped on edge or facing the sky? Some muther on TT was advising me that it's very important for power!!!

Is it really sportsmanship to hit my ball there? I better not or I won't be able to show my face in TT again!

Is that a slow ball that I need to move faster? Is this too fast?

Last but not least, my own thoughts... why am I trying so hard when there's no chicks around to show off!!? How many bounces does this fuker needs before serving? Hurry up already.

It's like a godddamn circus in my head.
Click to expand...
The three 6s for ladies, the three Fs for tennis. Two different concepts
 
ByeByePoly

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
user92626 said:
Plus, the 3Fs,

and The ISR, ESR, hammering style. Was my racket dropped on edge or facing the sky? Some muther on TT was advising me that it's very important for power!!!

Is it really sportsmanship to hit my ball there? I better not or I won't be able to show my face in TT again!

Is that a slow ball that I need to move faster? Is this too fast?

Last but not least, my own thoughts... why am I trying so hard when there's no chicks around to show off!!? How many bounces does this fuker needs before serving? Hurry up already.

It's like a godddamn circus in my head.
Click to expand...

Now ttw owns you ... you are well past first step "admitting you have a problem" having any chance of helping unless you do a full NYTA escape.

Let me play some nice music for you at least.

"Some dance to remember, some dance to forget"

"We are all just prisoners here of our own device"

 
Dartagnan64

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
user92626 said:
It still can be argued what "adequate time and space" means. I bet it means very different things to different people. I mean, 1 ms might be adequate for one, but woefully inadequate for the next person.
Click to expand...

There will always be a grey zone but it's not as common as you'd like to believe. If someone is still moving as they hit, they are not hitting with adequate time. If someone is jammed up, or the ball bounces at their feet, they don't have adequate space. If someone gets to his spot, has feet planted and full takeback, he has adequate time and space.

Like the one judge said, "I may not be able to define porn but I know it when I see it."


PKorda said:
I don’t think it’s a cut and dry as you say. After being moved around the court for 20 balls and someone misses on the 21st that is a different kind of unforced error than someone hitting it into the net on the second ball
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I think it can be both cut and dried and it can also be true that not all unforced errors are the same. Just like all forced errors aren't the same. And all winners aren't the same. A net cord winner is mostly luck. A 90 mph FH shot to the opposite corner is usually a great shot.
 
user92626

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Dartagnan64 said:
There will always be a grey zone but it's not as common as you'd like to believe. If someone is still moving as they hit, they are not hitting with adequate time. If someone is jammed up, or the ball bounces at their feet, they don't have adequate space. If someone gets to his spot, has feet planted and full takeback, he has adequate time and space.

Like the one judge said, "I may not be able to define porn but I know it when I see it."
Click to expand...
That one judge guy's "knowing" is pretty useless then. It only "works" for him and no one else.

As I suggested to @Curious above if you want the forced, unforced error concepts to exist, then they exist.

These concepts are probably only existing and good for tv announcers and as a form of data for viewers to enjoy. Most players would probably have an entirely different idea when they fail to hit the ball.

I can't count how many times recreational players disagree over how a match is won/lost. The loser suggested he made too many UEs on his own but the winner argued it was due to his great shots. Good luck settling that argument.
 
Z

zaph

Professional
The problem is that when people ball bash they think they aren't winning on unforced errors. Player hits a huge shot, his opponent is also smacking the ball and smacks the reply into the net. In the mind of the ball basher he has won due to a great shot and an error he forced.

In reality he has won due to an unforced error because his opponent could have got the ball back if they hadn't gone for as much.

Basically a large percentage of tennis matches are won on unforced errors, it is just when both players are hitting big, those unforced errors are less obvious.
 
Dartagnan64

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
user92626 said:
I can't count how many times recreational players disagree over how a match is won/lost. The loser suggested he made too many UEs on his own but the winner argued it was due to his great shots. Good luck settling that argument.
Click to expand...

Yes perception may be different than reality. But that's related to inherent confirmation bias of players and has nothing to do with determining what is an unforced error.

I would suspect if you watched a pro match and counted unforced errors, your result would come back very similar to the statisticians count. You might disagree on the odd error but that's fine because it's really a continuous variable as opposed to a discrete variable. There will be a grey zone where it's tough to tell at times. Just as a statistician might miss a slight tick off the racket and count a forced error as a winner.

I don't think it's very hard for me to know when I'm set up to make a shot and I don't think it's very hard for an observer to note the same thing. That's all I'm saying.
 
U

ubercat

Hall of Fame
Tru dat. I m a skilled junk baller and my female tennis partner always complains my matches r too long. BTW she makes us play a grade up on what we should and hardly ever wins a match. To her tactics is an exciting new fragrance by Dior.
 
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