MarinaHighTennis
Hall of Fame
My team made it! It'd be fun to meet up with any of you guys there if you're nearby
4.5 Men's 18&over Nationals - Surprise, Arizona
- Thread starter MarinaHighTennis
- Start date
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Congrats. Do you know your schedule?
schmke
Legend
Nationals site says schedules in early September (https://www.usta.com/en/home/play/adult-tennis/programs/national/usta-league-nationals-schedule.html). But event is October 8-10.
MarinaHighTennis
Hall of Fame
Yeap 2nd weekend of October thurs-sunday
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
I’ll be up watching as usual, so will try to get around to say hello and catch some of you play. Congrats.
McLovin
Legend
I'll be out there Oct 9th & 10th, then maybe again the 15th.
Not playing...my lone 4.5 40+ team didn't make the cut...but to visit my daughter who will be there for 3 weeks working the 3.5 & 4.5 tournaments (so everyone be nice!). So we're going out to visit her for a bit, then up to Sedona & the Grand Canyon for a hike.
Not playing...my lone 4.5 40+ team didn't make the cut...but to visit my daughter who will be there for 3 weeks working the 3.5 & 4.5 tournaments (so everyone be nice!). So we're going out to visit her for a bit, then up to Sedona & the Grand Canyon for a hike.
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
Will be cool to see everyone out here. Hope to get to meet up or at least watch some of you all play.
I thought I saw Sansait just post they are going to sectionals.
I thought I saw Sansait just post they are going to sectionals.
MarinaHighTennis
Hall of Fame
ahh awesome! My team made it to nationals for both 18&over & 40&over 4.5. THey're like a week apart right? Hopefully they won't be too tired
jhick
Hall of Fame
Yeah it looks like they won a 3-2 match at Areas/State this past weekend. I'm guessing they still need to advance through sectionals to get to nationals.
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
Wow, congrats. Yeah I think they follow each other. Dats a lotta tennis matches. Bring ibuprofen!
Is Ian not one of their 8 best players or are they just saving him for nationals?
jdawgg
Semi-Pro
Not uncommon for some of the team to be unavailable (prior commitments), even for the biggest matches.
OnTheLine
Hall of Fame
lordy, adulting just really isn't all that fun ... much rather play a match.
Congrats to those going ...
MarinaHighTennis
Hall of Fame
Yeah haha the weekend after I'm taking my board exams. Hopefully I'm not too stressed out during the tourney
Only playing 2 out of roughly 9 matches is more than an availability issue.
jdawgg
Semi-Pro
Not necessarily, some people are busy adulting, as OnTheLine mentioned.
Also:
Two matches you say? That's the magic number to qualify for Sectionals, AKA minimum number of matches needed to qualify for Sectionals.
Ian is a self-rate, thus subject to disqualification if he gets three strikes. Teams will play those players a minimum number of matches if they're worried about strike outs. I'd be surprised though, because DQs don't happen very often at 4.5. Have to be way out of level. Actually, at PNW sectionals one player did strike out after his first match. I'd guess he was a high 5.0 singles player (don't see those too often at 4.5).
ATX Tennis
Rookie
Not sure their section’s rule on qualifying for sectionals, but you only need to have 2 matches for nationals this year. In Texas self rates needed 3 matches for sectionals, so some players that didn’t have the matches for sectionals might actually be eligible for nationals.
Yeah that was my question. Are they doing it nefariously to prevent Ian from being disqualified?
jdawgg
Semi-Pro
Your question was actually whether or not Ian was a top 8 player on his team. lol
Looking at tennisrecord.com, Ian's matches put him at 4.49 and 4.59 dynamic ratings for each match (which are quite high). The guy that got DQ'd in our region had 4.63ish dynamic ratings for his matches. Ian might actually be in or close to strike land. Is it nefarious to not play that player? Definitely nefarious to drop games.
No my question was Ian a top 8 player or are they saving him for nationals I.e. cheating the system to ensure he doesn’t get disqualified.
jdawgg
Semi-Pro
Either you edited your post, but it doesn't show up as being edited or I'm going crazy.
Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
Is there a site that gives the brackets of the actual teams that played in regionals and the actual teams that will be playing in Nationals?
Sorry if I am just missing the site but I have tried finding this with google and couldn't find either.
Sorry if I am just missing the site but I have tried finding this with google and couldn't find either.
Jack the Hack
Hall of Fame
Here is the high level Nationals schedule for 18s 4.5: https://www.usta.com/content/dam/usta/2021-pdfs/18 Over 4.5 final 9-17-21.pdf
To drill down into the actual teams, you need to do some homework in TennisLink. Go to Home > TennisLink > USTA League > Stats & Standings > Advanced Search and type in the parameters that you are searching for (like Year = 2021, League Type = Adult18&Over, NTRP - 4.5, Gender = Male, Level = National Championships.) Here's what that report generated for me: https://tennislink.usta.com/Leagues/Main/statsandstandings.aspx#&&s=9||79283||118470||2021||20
From within TennisLink, you can click around and find the results you need for each team. You might need to run a Sectional level report for each Section to get those, although I usually just research each team that we're going to play individually. You can also look at player and team records in TennisRecord.com for reconnaissance, although the ratings there are a bit wonky. And finally, if you are wanting to get actual ratings comparisons for lineup decisions, @schmke offers that service from his ratings database, which is the closest you'll get to the USTA computer.
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
Looks like the weather will be great. Unfortuately I am heading up north to look at some investment properties all weekend so will miss the action! All the best to those competing! Get some pics and videos for us.
schmke
Legend
Well, if you had rain yesterday, you are done for the year so all will be dry and good to go in October
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
Well, if you had rain yesterday, you are done for the year so all will be dry and good to go in October
lol, you are probably right.
NumbersGuy
Rookie
I believe you have 48 hours from the end of that Section's Sectionals to file any grievances, even if you're from another Section. Not a very grievance-friendly rule, but there you go. I tried it once and got that answer.
As to college players, I believe if they self-rated before joining the team, then the fact that they are currently on a college team is not used against them.
As to college players, I believe if they self-rated before joining the team, then the fact that they are currently on a college team is not used against them.
Vox Rationis
Professional
The Florida team looks insanely stacked. Their best player has an 11 singles UTR (based on little data but still )
)
MarinaHighTennis
Hall of Fame
Which sections are generally the strongest?
Jack the Hack
Hall of Fame
Here is a list of the men's 18 & over 4.5 national championship results since 2003:
| Year | 1st Place | 2nd Place | 3rd Place | 4th Place |
| 2003 | Mid-Atlantic | Northern California | New England | Southwest |
| 2004 | Northern California | Southern | Southwest | New England |
| 2005 | Southern California | Mid-Atlantic | Missouri Valley | Caribbean |
| 2006 | Texas | Florida | Middle States | Southern |
| 2007 | Hawaii | New England | Middle States | Texas |
| 2008 | Southern | Missouri Valley | Mid-Atlantic | Caribbean |
| 2009 | Northern | Northern California | Mid-Atlantic | Southern |
| 2010 | Caribbean | Mid-west | Texas | Southern California |
| 2011 | Middle States | Southern California | Southern | Pacific Northwest |
| 2012 | Southwest | Mid-Atlantic | Southern California | Texas |
| 2013 | Southern | Pacific Northwest | Northern | Intermountain |
| 2014 | Pacific Northwest | Southern | Texas | Caribbean |
| 2015 | Mid-west | Southern California | Southern | Texas |
| 2016 | Eastern | Southern California | Southwest | Mid-Atlantic |
| 2017 | Mid-west | Mid-Atlantic | Texas | Florida |
| 2018 | Mid-west | Texas | Northern California | Southern California |
| 2019 | Mid-Atlantic | Southern | Mid-west | Middle States |
If you assign a point value so that champions get 4 points, runner-up 3 points, 3rd place 2 points, and 4th place at 1 point, this is how each section has done in the men's 18s 4.5 category over those 17 years:
| Section | Points |
| Southern | 23 |
| Mid-Atlantic | 22 |
| Mid-west | 17 |
| Southern California | 17 |
| Texas | 16 |
| Northern California | 12 |
| Middle States | 9 |
| Southwest | 9 |
| Pacific Northwest | 8 |
| Caribbean | 7 |
| New England | 6 |
| Northern | 6 |
| Missouri Valley | 5 |
| Eastern | 4 |
| Florida | 4 |
| Hawaii | 4 |
| Intermountain | 1 |
From this, you can see that the top Sections for producing great 4.5 teams at Nationals are Southern, Mid-Atlantic, the Mid-west, Southern California, Texas, and Northern California.
If you extrapolated this out for other NTRP levels, I bet the overall results are fairly similar. In fact, I'm sure that someone like @schmke might even have those numbers in his previous studies.
What is somewhat surprising is that Intermountain's best result in all those years was a single 4th place finish. I know that there are some great tennis locations in that Section, including Denver, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, and Boise. I guess those people have other things to do than stack all the best players on one team to make consistent runs, at least at 4.5. However, the fact that Intermountain is so geographically dispersed might be a factor as well. Going to Sectionals there is probably a big travel expense.
All that said, a 4.5 is a 4.5 regardless of where they are. Meaning, a good 4.5 in the Pacific Northwest is going to be a good 4.5 in the Southern Section as well. The advantage of some of these successful Sections is that they just have more players of that level to choose from, and to win at Nationals, you typically have to get a group of the best players from an area to combine all together with the goal of winning.
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reported for spreading lies. Everybody knows that good 4.5 play _in my section only_ and they would be 5.0 anywhere else.......
MarinaHighTennis
Hall of Fame
are you here this weekend? my teams next match is 11am!
Vox Rationis
Professional
How are you guys feeling about your chances? It should be a close final day between So Cal, Southern, Mid Atlantic, and Florida. I could see any of them finishing in that 4th qualifying spot.
MarinaHighTennis
Hall of Fame
I think it'll be determined by our match with southern at 11am. If we win, were in for that last spot.
MarinaHighTennis
Hall of Fame
Beat southern 3-2 but bc we thought we were out of the running we put the rest of our players in and won 3-2 the next match. Sadly, we found out we only needed 2 sets more to make it to the semis so 5th place for us
schmke
Legend
Well done on 5th! That is a nice accomplishment.
Oaf, who is doing your math?
But Northern did have strong singles players, getting one of those might have been tough regardless.Note, it appears you lost the tie-breaker due to your head to head loss to MoValley, not the sets tie-breaker. You actually lost fewer sets (the tie-breaker used) but had lost your first match to them. But perhaps you are meaning had you won one more court somewhere along the lines you would have been 4th.
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MarinaHighTennis
Hall of Fame
Ah yeah we lost to the head to head Mo valley bc we didn't play best players there too. Our team generally is very strong in doubles where if we play our best guys our 1,2,3 are all equal but we lack a singles ringer. Our singles are strong but could lose to anyone still with a battleWell done on 5th! That is a nice accomplishment.
Oaf, who is doing your math?
Note, it appears you lost the tie-breaker due to your head to head loss to MoValley, not the sets tie-breaker. You actually lost fewer sets (the tie-breaker used) but had lost your first match to them. But perhaps you are meaning had you won one more court somewhere along the lines you would have been 4th.
@jdawgg who is your singles guy? We saw the score and we're like oh dang bc we only saw southern with a singles guy in par with him.
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MarinaHighTennis
Hall of Fame
Ah goodluck! They have 2 strong singles and 1 doubles so hopefully the lineups plays right. I believe they have 4 college players (for sure 3) and they are deep enough just to rotate them around
The funny part is they actually won Southern by winning all 3 dubs and losing both singles.
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
MarinaHighTennis
Hall of Fame
Delete
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MarinaHighTennis
Hall of Fame
It was good my first nationals experience and glad I went undefeated. Team didn't make top4 but we are a play everyone team and did well enough without being cutthroat
Vox Rationis
Professional
I’m pretty sure all those “college guys” are actually 23-30ish years old haha. They’ve all graduated for sure. The rest of their team are all late 30s and above that I know of.
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