RS
Bionic Poster
I know you consider Fed in 2005 better
That is why some people might give Hewitt a decent shot of beating Djokovic or taking him 5.
Hewitt vs Federer Highlights | ATP Finals 2002 Semi-Final | TennisTV Highlights
- Thread starter NatF
- Start date
That is why some people might give Hewitt a decent shot of beating Djokovic or taking him 5.
metsman
G.O.A.T.
I'll humor you, we know 12-14 USO Joe is probably not even at peak Murray(=peak Hewitt) levels, 11 is better, and 15 is somewhere in between. 15 Joe probably bit tougher matchup against old Fed due to hitting a deeper ball, however, Hewitt probably is harder to rush and rattle with forward play. Any matchup advantage Djokovic really had was rendered moot by his big ups and downs in that match (and given Djokovic's US Open history, huge fluctuations within a match should really be expected). Same with his serve advantage. Put it this way, pretty easy to see peak Hewitt beating old Fed in tight-ish 4 setter, and 15 Joe going down to 05 Fed by similar scoreline.
Obviously a part of it is Djokovic establishing mental advantage over Federer due to prior meetings which is hard to translate in hypotheticals. But in general I think Federer would be vulnerable to any high level mover and baseliner.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
I don't know whether he was better, I just know that he wasn't worse.I know you consider Fed in 2005 better
Some people always point out to the Agassi final and say Federer was terrible, but not a peep about 2015 Djokovic nearly going 5 vs old man Lopez.
RS
Bionic Poster
Maybe not you just following the general opinion here USO 2005 Fed > USO 2011 Djokovic (slightly) and USO 2011 Djokovic > USO 2015 Djokovic (clearly) that most people do but maybe not you.
So if you think these things then you can say Hewitt was equal to that Djokovic or at least close.
RS
Bionic Poster
So more or less the same level .
metsman
G.O.A.T.
Fed nearly went 5 vs Kiefer also.
The bigger difference is that Agassi was completely hopeless for 2.5 sets in 2005 and played the absolute best he could play to take his set (if he was anywhere near as sloppy as Fed was, even in 2nd set of 15 USO, he would have found it very hard to even win that, but he was basically perfect). But you knew that if Federer stopped coughing up crap on his BH there was almost nothing Agassi could do. At no point in 2015 was Fed playing his cleanest stuff and Djokovic's wild inconsistencies were only exceeded by Federer's even wilder ones and tentativeness on big points. 2005 USO final is more similar in dynamics to 2016 AO just with the set orderings changed a bit, but there it felt like Federer just had no shot in the neutral rallies, Djokovic was just too good. Very different from 2015 USO where Djokovic never brought that level and decisive edge was just flatness from Federer (first set), tentativeness (third set), or just sloppiness (4th set). Even 2015 Wimby seemed much more decisive as Djokovic choked Fed in the first set TB, 3rd set break was a gift, but from there on out was very convincing.
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mike danny
Bionic Poster
Didn't almost go 5 vs Kiefer. It ended 6-4 in the 5th with Fed getting an earlier break as opposed to 7-6 in the 4th like with Djokovic-Lopez.
RS
Bionic Poster
Thought you would be tempted to give Hewitt at least a 5th set in a H2Hconsidering you think a peak Fed > peak Djoko at the USO but fair dues for the answer
metsman
G.O.A.T.
Hewitt going 5 or winning is definitely possible, but hard to make any definite judgements since only comparison point is a hell and heaven Federer.Thought you would be tempted to give Hewitt at least a 5th set in a H2Hconsidering you think a peak Fed > peak Djoko at the USO but fair dues for the answer
Kralingen
Talk Tennis Guru
Hewitt facing the worst crowd in tennis history or not? That was ridiculous, honestly.
Hewitt was definitely impressive especially from the baseline. My only nitpick would be end of 2nd set when he had all those SPs but eventually just succumbed to Fed’s Fearhand as nearly everyone in tennis history would have. He did a nice job of attacking what was a slightly shaky BH, moved well, had a strong mentality for the most part.
I think ‘15 Fed’s bag of tricks would run out before Hewitt did so could definitely see Hewitt beating ‘15erer. But that crowd was insane, it isn’t talked about enough in terms of influencing djokovic’s performance.
as for a direct comparison - Djokovic would be a lot more comfortable in Hewitt’s service games than ‘15 Fed’s. So Novak wins in 4/5. But from the baseline I’ll call it even.
But if both lose to 04-06 Federer anyways what’s the point in comparing them?
metsman
G.O.A.T.
Yeah but Kiefer would have broken in third had Fed not GOATed a passing shot.
Kiefer also served for the 4th or was a break up I believe at wimbledon. Point being to not take the earlier matches seriously (although Lopez match was a QF) as top guys don't get up the same for every match. Joe obviously has more than his share and then some of late round weirdness in matches he should have gotten up for at USO to make the point regardless.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Well, that's why I brought up the match vs Lopez. It was a QF which is pretty much a later stage.
RS
Bionic Poster
Djokovic losing seems the majority view but some people think Djokovic wins as well.Hewitt facing the worst crowd in tennis history or not? That was ridiculous, honestly.
Hewitt was definitely impressive especially from the baseline. My only nitpick would be end of 2nd set when he had all those SPs but eventually just succumbed to Fed’s Fearhand as nearly everyone in tennis history would have. He did a nice job of attacking what was a slightly shaky BH, moved well, had a strong mentality for the most part.
I think ‘15 Fed’s bag of tricks would run out before Hewitt did so could definitely see Hewitt beating ‘15erer. But that crowd was insane, it isn’t talked about enough in terms of influencing djokovic’s performance.
as for a direct comparison - Djokovic would be a lot more comfortable in Hewitt’s service games than ‘15 Fed’s. So Novak wins in 4/5. But from the baseline I’ll call it even.
But if both lose to 04-06 Federer anyways what’s the point in comparing them?
Kralingen
Talk Tennis Guru
With the whole “if old Fed can ___, then peak Fed would ___” thesis behind him Fed will ride the wave to a comfortable hypothetical victory 10/10 times.
However if Djokovic had played say Cilic in the final and put up his SF performance he might have a shot. Unfortunately he is doomed to lose this hypothetical until the end of time. Dropping more than 8 total games to any player over the age of 30 basically means you suck and their younger version would routine you, except if we’re talking about Agassi vs peak Federer of course.
abmk
Bionic Poster
a little more comfortable, but not lot more.
Also hewitt would be even more comfortable in djokovic's service games than he was against 05 fed, quite a bit more in fact.
15 fed had 10 return games with BPs (total of 23 BPs), of which he converted 4. hewitt would convert atleast a couple more.
RS
Bionic Poster
That iswhy your guy wins the most hypotheticals
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RS
Bionic Poster
Sometimes one match vs a considered pesk ATG and post-prime ATG is considered all the difference though
ForehandRF
Legend
2005 Hewitt is not going 5 with 2015 Djokovic, let's be honest here, especially because conditions were slower in 2015 and that won't favor Hewitt's game at all, not to mention that 2015 Djokovic hit deep shots regularly
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Yeah, would need 2013 Djokovic for the possibility of 2005 Hewitt going 5 existing.2005 Hewitt is not going 5 with 2015 Djokovic, let's be honest here, especially because conditions were slower in 2015 and that won't favor Hewitt's game at all, not to mention that 2015 Djokovic hit deep shots regularly
2005 Hewitt wins vs 2014 Djokovic though
RS
Bionic Poster
How do you see Hewitt of the USO 05 SF vs Djokovic of the USO 13 F going then?
mike danny
Bionic Poster
RS
Bionic Poster
In time travel matches you could make them play in USO 2005 speeds as well.2005 Hewitt is not going 5 with 2015 Djokovic, let's be honest here, especially because conditions were slower in 2015 and that won't favor Hewitt's game at all, not to mention that 2015 Djokovic hit deep shots regularly
NatF
Bionic Poster
2005 Hewitt is not going 5 with 2015 Djokovic, let's be honest here, especially because conditions were slower in 2015 and that won't favor Hewitt's game at all, not to mention that 2015 Djokovic hit deep shots regularly
Fed hit a much heavier ball than Djokovic, much easier for Hewitt to deal with...
Yeah, would need 2013 Djokovic for the possibility of 2005 Hewitt going 5 existing.
2005 Hewitt wins vs 2014 Djokovic though
I edited my post.
I could see 2005 Hewitt pushing 2013 Djokovic to 5, just don't know whether he'd win
lol Hewitt would have chances to win against 2013'ovic not just go five, he could definitely go five with 2015'ovic too.
ForehandRF
Legend
NatF
Bionic Poster
Possibly, he was very good there. I think tactically he was better at the USO, the way he attacked the net as a change up was great but maybe pure ballstriking was slightly more solid at the AO particularly the first set of each?
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Really hard to compare which one was better.
NatF
Bionic Poster
Hewitt has never played a baseliner like Djokovic so it becomes pointless if we think about it anyway
News flash, he's played him a bunch of times...metal toe Hewitt even took at a set at the slowest AO of all time in 2012.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Yeah, 2005 USO Hewitt played well vs Fed, would probably have a chance to beat 2013 USO Djokovic.
RS
Bionic Poster
He did face Federer though and some people would put peak Federer with a peak Djokovic as a baseliner.Hewitt has never player a baseliner like Djokovic so it becomes pointless if we think about it anyway
Kralingen
Talk Tennis Guru
I might just be overrating that because of the breadstick he delivered to GOATing Marat in the first set. He was incredibly on point there. Like 1 UE I believe. A shame it only counted as one set.
I do think he got tight in the later stages of the AO final due to the home pressure of it. Missed a lot of first serves iirc, while Marat was dinging them in at like a 70% rate. That more than anything else made the difference in the match, Safin had more winners but a lot of them were serve+1 putaways. He hung with both peak Safin and Federer from the baseline admirably.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
RS
Bionic Poster
Safin of the SF would have straight setted Hewitt
RS
Bionic Poster
On fast surfaces some people think Federer was just as good from the ground as Djokovic in his peak but just in a different way. I saw this debate in a older thread somewhere.
Kralingen
Talk Tennis Guru
lol I do think he was a bit exhausted and lethargic in that first set tbf, no way Safin should be getting breadsticked. But Hewitt was also beasting.Safin of the SF would have straight setted Hewitt
Also as good as Safin was in that SF he arguably should have gone down in 4 with a tiny bit of Fed clutching. I thank the tennis gods for allowing him to save that MP and win the 4th set. Would have been a cruel outcome otherwise
Have you watched Hewitt-Nadal AO '05 btw?
RS
Bionic Poster
If Fed won in 4 vs Safin people might have considered that his best AO. I think any of them winning in 5 was the fairest outcome.
Seen Hewitt vs Nadal AO 05
ForehandRF
Legend
mike danny
Bionic Poster
He was still incredibly elite from the baseline in his younger years. Great defense.I disagree with them in this case.At his best, Federer was a different type of player, a shotmaker with an all court type of tennis, not a baseline juggernaut like Djokovic
And in the AO 2009 F he was incredibly good from the baseline which is the only reason he made the match close because he had a terrible serving day
RS
Bionic Poster
Who do you think had better ground game a peak Federer or a peak Murray?I disagree with them in this case.At his best, Federer was a different type of player, a shotmaker with an all court type of tennis, not a baseline juggernaut like Djokovic
mike danny
Bionic Poster
RS
Bionic Poster
Some of those people count variety and attacking play as part of ground game. Were as most count it as longer rallies and more defensive type play and running.I disagree with them in this case.At his best, Federer was a different type of player, a shotmaker with an all court type of tennis, not a baseline juggernaut like Djokovic
RS
Bionic Poster
Peak Murray or Peak Hewitt off the ground?
ForehandRF
Legend
mike danny
Bionic Poster
D
Deleted member 779124
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I would put the Murray FH at average rather than weak but obviously yes clearly worse than Federer in that regard.
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