Hypothetical: the ATP bans poly strings. What changes?

Kralingen

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
Let’s say the ATP decides modern tennis has gotten out of control and they ban all polyester/co-poly strings tomorrow. No racquet limitations, only strings - natural/multi gut are the only strings allowed.

I understand racquet tech and string physics on some level, but not enough to isolate its impact on the game. this is a question for the racquet experts and especially for the old timer constant “poly has ruined the game” crowd. How would things change? Would it be a big difference, totally reshaping the top 10 and top of the game? Small difference as players would adjust? Small difference for some playing styles but big difference for others?

How would the overall product look? Improved or worsened? No wrong answers here.
 
Nostradamus

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
Kralingen said:
Let’s say the ATP decides modern tennis has gotten out of control and they ban all polyester/co-poly strings tomorrow. No racquet limitations, only strings - natural/multi gut are the only strings allowed.

I understand racquet tech and string physics on some level, but not enough to isolate its impact on the game. this is a question for the racquet experts and especially for the old timer constant “poly has ruined the game” crowd. How would things change? Would it be a big difference, totally reshaping the top 10 and top of the game? Small difference as players would adjust? Small difference for some playing styles but big difference for others?

How would the overall product look? Improved or worsened? No wrong answers here.
Click to expand...

Then i think Benard Tomic will be #1 in the world and would have 22 majors
 
D

Don Felder

Semi-Pro
Kralingen said:
So we’d see the same play styles and a very similar product to today? What is the benefit of poly then?
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Yeah, I think so. I think the modern game is more driven by racquet technology and surface speeds/bounces than string. I don’t think the differences would be major. Subtle possibly.
 
droliver

droliver

Professional
Arguing that it wouldn’t significantly alter the ATP game to remove polyester strings is silly. Watch a baseline rally from 1995 vs today and it jumps off the screen

While power baselining would still predominate, you’d see a big difference in court positioning (closer to the baseline) as the trajectory and spin of the ball is lower. Without the spin from poly, you would see more defensive shots from the backcourt and less of the defense to offense kind of play from 3-5 yards behind the baseline. You’d probably also see more experimenting with serve and volley.
 
A

Arak

Legend
There will be less ball bashing, more finesse, less topspin. Players will have to learn to have more control over their shots. They will adapt eventually. I think it will be beneficial for the spectacle (smarter play) and for the players (less injuries).
 
Kralingen

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
Will there be specific players who struggle with this change, and specific players who flourish? I know there’s a long list who use a full bed of poly.
 
Third Serve

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
Arak said:
Federer, Djokovic, Medvedev, Zverev, Sinner would benefit.
Nadal, Ruud, Thiem, Alcaraz, Rublev, FAA, Tsitsipas would be at disadvantage.
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To be pedantic, not so much that those players’ games benefit but that they’re less negatively impacted than the others
 
A

Arak

Legend
mental midget said:
in all honesty i would like to see this. not a ton would change, but you would see more net play for one thing. good idea, never happen unfortunately.
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I would like to see this happen too. I agree that it won’t make a dramatic difference but it will definitely improve the quality of the spectacle.
 
Russeljones

Russeljones

Talk Tennis Guru
I am also not an expert but I will try.

The spin generation will go down. You need a lot more tension on gut to achieve spin, but you'll still be short. If you do this, your game will need to be rebuilt from scratch.

The string bed sweet spot will decrease. This will make returns and shots on the run much less effective.

On the whole, such a scenario is very likely to favour serve and volley.
 
esgee48

esgee48

G.O.A.T.
If they ban polyester but not softer nylons, I can think ref tensions would start going up. More frequent racquet switching could occur because the spin would destroy the string beds more quickly. A more finesse type game may evolve but I’m not sure about it. Players who have better touch may migrate to all gut. NG-nylon hybrids may predominate. I have a sneaking suspicion that Pro blend hybrids may make a comeback.

S&V or the all court styles may make a comeback. Remember that before the advent of polyester. all styles could be seen, baseliners, S&V, grinders and all courters.
 
M

Max G.

Legend
I don't think it would change much about the current top players - all the players would be affected roughly equally, everyone's gotten adjusted to the game right now. Both aggressive and defensive players nowadays rely on a lot of spin.

The most talented players would be the ones that adjust fastest. So I think the top players would stay there.

...the next fastest to adapt would be the young generation. You'd see the current top players adjust a bit and stay on top for now, but within 2-3 years you'd get an explosion of 18-20 year olds coming out and obliterating everyone, because it's a heck of a lot easier to adjust new technique at age 16 than at age 30.
 
Russeljones

Russeljones

Talk Tennis Guru
Max G. said:
I don't think it would change much about the current top players - all the players would be affected roughly equally, everyone's gotten adjusted to the game right now. Both aggressive and defensive players nowadays rely on a lot of spin.

The most talented players would be the ones that adjust fastest. So I think the top players would stay there.

...the next fastest to adapt would be the young generation. You'd see the current top players adjust a bit and stay on top for now, but within 2-3 years you'd get an explosion of 18-20 year olds coming out and obliterating everyone, because it's a heck of a lot easier to adjust new technique at age 16 than at age 30.
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Nadal announces his retirement the next day. There's your adaptation. He wouldn't know what to do.
 
Kralingen

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
Weren’t Bruguera, Berasetegui, and others able to generate massive amounts of topspin without poly in the 90s? Why would Nadal, Tsitsipas, and others with loopy swing paths suffer?
 
R

RelentlessAttack

Hall of Fame
Kralingen said:
Weren’t Bruguera, Berasetegui, and others able to generate massive amounts of topspin without poly in the 90s? Why would Nadal, Tsitsipas, and others with loopy swing paths suffer?
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I wonder if anyone has RPM numbers from the 90s. I’m guessing it’s a matter of relativity - with poly you can get more spin with less effort so you have a few factors that impact the rally:
- raw RPMs per shot
- consistency of high RPM shots
- ability to hit high RPM aggressive shots from what previously would have been seen as difficult defensive positions
- more aggressive angles and trajectories on previously flatter and deeper putaways when ending points

If you’ve ever gone and ramped up a ball machine to max spin, you’ll probably find that you can handle a few of those super high RPM balls. But if you’re going to have to hit 300 of them, you’ll become fatigued and have more and more difficulty handling them over time
 
R

RelentlessAttack

Hall of Fame
Didn’t Agassi famously say that when he tried poly, he could hit the ball out and have it land in? That implies that he could use much more powerful strokes on an average basis and still keep the ball in play

From anecdotal experience, I’m tall and my serve mechanics are much more professional than the rest of my game. My first experience with poly was that it became trivially easy to kick serves up over the heads of short people. I don’t usually play with a full bed, but when I do I’d have to really mess up to drop serve against a short player. I can imagine the difference in what pros are able to do with the ball off the ground feels similarly or more monumental to them.

Personally I think they should regulate the strings, but also racquet head sizes, racquet composition, and range of swing weights. Where we are now is like if the NHL never regulated the size of goalie pads or the MLB allowed aluminum bats.

A similar situation might be where the NHL allowed composite sticks, and as a result wood sticks completely vanished from the league in a few short years. The composite sticks greatly improve shooting potency. The NHL allowed this change because goalie equipment, goalie technique, and team defensive systems had really reduced offense and the league wanted to increase offense. Probably similar to the ATP wanting to get away from one and done S&V of the Sampras era on fast courts
 
P

PMChambers

Hall of Fame
Banning Poly would affect the game significantly.
Racquet effect - Reduce the head size back to the 85-90 range. There is no benefit in having a larger head with gut. The sweet spot is smaller and the effect of a longer string for increased deflection/snapback isn't there.
Game. style - becomes significantly harder to hit a hard and heavy ball. Defence becomes much harder and going to the net to put away the easy ball becomes more viable.
The offence is harder as well but since defence is harder playing aggressive and following to net for put away becomes easier.
Serve loses spin resulting in reduced average pace. But since defence is harder S&V on good serve becomes viable.
Standing excessively deep is problematic without the spin and dip. The shots flatten this allows players time to push the net against a really deep player. BUT without the kick or heavy ball, there is less requirement to go deep, Players won't need to go so deep.
Short volleys will be very effective as very hard to get a ball up and down. Pace will need to be taken off short and low passing shots.
Surfaces - Grass will be lead worn out behind the bade line and more inside court. This wear will affect baseliners. Weird bounces will hurt more as the sweet spot is reduced. This helps s&V or SHV or at least makes going to net viable.
HC - The ball won't kick as much, it won't be as heavy, and players can stand in more and take it rise as it's less variable. Slow HC still help baseline, baseline will need to finish the point off at net to stop the loopy reset.
Clay - Personal speed and playing safer are more important. Becomes more grinding.
WTA - Was of time think 80/90 WTA with the exception of a few players was MEH.
End-of-day volleying will be much easier but not essentially. The easy put-away volley becomes important. Slower surfaces will play slower as now they favour the bigger power hitters who can unleash their power.
Maybe we see smaller men as once the serve is countered the extra leverage and power can't be used. maybe we see 5'10" players again. Fast counter players with a good feel.
As a side note, the longer a rally goes the more gut string bed opens up and becomes erratic making accuracy harder. Strong savers help by keeping the string bed aligned better but it's still an issue.
 
Karma Tennis

Karma Tennis

Legend
Banning Poly would have virtually no effect on the top tiers of the sport.

Players would simply move to a veryheavy gauge (ie 15 Gauge - 1.40mm or even 1.50mm) synthetic gut and string it at very high tension. Such string configurations would produce very similar results to most current Poly strings. So the style of play would not change very much.

The two things that would significantly change the sport

1/ Much smaller hoop sizes - 85 Sq Inch max for standard hoops, 80 Sq inch for isometric hoops.
2/ Smaller diameter tennis balls that are heavier than the current standard balls.

(These two changes would have much more of an impact on Rafa than on Roger or Novak.)
 
GhostOfNKDM

GhostOfNKDM

Hall of Fame
ttwreader said:
Animal right activists will protest at every tennis event.
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There is synthetic gut as well. Its called gut because it's usually a monofilament which plays softer like the old natural gut.

Polyfilament synthetic strings are made of the same material as synthetic gut but the way the strands are woven/composed gives them durability and 'bite' necessary for spin
 
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GhostOfNKDM

GhostOfNKDM

Hall of Fame
Strings + racquet head size affect what kind of strokes a player can execute:

So poly and larger head sizes have allowed for western grips and being able to crank up the power producing spin + weight of shot.

Balls - their size and weight actually would make a bigger difference in playing style. A heavier and less fluffier ball would jump off the surface faster and stay lower.

I think that would suit the game of players that play off the rise - Fed, Agassi come to mind, and not really suit most of the players from these past two decades
 
junior74

junior74

Talk Tennis Guru
Arak said:
Federer, Djokovic, Medvedev, Zverev, Sinner would benefit.
Nadal, Ruud, Thiem, Alcaraz, Rublev, FAA, Tsitsipas would be at disadvantage.
Click to expand...

Great returners would be a little less great returners if not for polyester strings. That's the single shot it helps the most.
 
Russeljones

Russeljones

Talk Tennis Guru
Karma Tennis said:
Banning Poly would have virtually no effect on the top tiers of the sport.

Players would simply move to a veryheavy gauge (ie 15 Gauge - 1.40mm or even 1.50mm) synthetic gut and string it at very high tension. Such string configurations would produce very similar results to most current Poly strings. So the style of play would not change very much.
Click to expand...
I have a hard time imagining this. The firmness and profile of the poly string is lost. How can a wider, less firm, profile produce a similar interaction with the ball? We are talking about grip, right? The poly string bites into the ball as the string bed makes contact at an angle. That friction would be significantly reduced if the string property is modified as described. Maybe you have an explanation.
 
P

PMChambers

Hall of Fame
RelentlessAttack said:
Personally I think they should regulate the strings, but also racquet head sizes, racquet composition, and range of swing weights. Where we are now is like if the NHL never regulated the size of goalie pads or the MLB allowed aluminum bats.
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Why? And to what? Nat Gut will result in ATP going back to 90 sq inch range. Why composition? Unless you state wood only I don't see any issue with graphite + whatever [fibreglass, kevlar, etc]. Why and what SW? Likely go back to higher SW.
BTW, other than string material there are regulations on all playing equipment. Racquet length, ball weight, etc. People keep stating tennis jas no equipment specs, this is wrong. Tennis allows for material development but not other changes.
 
Russeljones

Russeljones

Talk Tennis Guru
GhostOfNKDM said:
There is synthetic gut as well. Its called gut because it's usually a monofilament which plays softer like the old natural gut.

Polyfilament synthetic strings are made of the same material as synthetic gut but the way the strands are woven/composed gives them durability and 'bite' necessary for spin
Click to expand...
Then they are poly too, aren't they?
 
Karma Tennis

Karma Tennis

Legend
Russeljones said:
Then they are poly too, aren't they?
Click to expand...

Mutifilament strings and synthetic gut strings are most commonly made from nylon which is comprised of a singly polymer.

Most references to POLY strings on tennis threads are actually talking about COpolymer strings which are comprised of more than one polymer.
 
Russeljones

Russeljones

Talk Tennis Guru
GhostOfNKDM said:
Yeah its all complicated now. There are poly filament synthetic 'gut' and monofilament luxilons.

The terminology has stuck though. Polys refer to durable strings that have an angular cross section regardless of actual composition
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@Kralingen bud, we need clarity on this scenario (lol). Natural or synthetic? Synthetic gut, from the sound of things, is dangerously close to poly.

Cat intestines or nothing, I say.
 
P

PMChambers

Hall of Fame
Kralingen said:
All of this is sounding like we’d see a ton more unreturned serves, a lot of mugs missing passing shots, and a lot more UEs and worse play overall.
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Yes. But is it worse? It would be like making cyclist race steel frames again. Yes, it's slower but worse? Baseball does this, there are better materials for bat, there are less home runs as a result, does it make the sport better? Achary has recurve and compound categories, recurve win by hitting the center more often, compound wins by not missing the centre. Is .22 target pistol shooting easier than rifle shooting because it's smaller calibe? The issue with tennis is the court, it wasn't changed to reflect the tech changes. Golf had the same issues, except it's far expensive to stretch a golf course to counter the new drivers. I believe they banned the mega drivers as they countries the course too much.
 
Kralingen

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
Russeljones said:
@Kralingen bud, we need clarity on this scenario (lol). Natural or synthetic? Synthetic gut, from the sound of things, is dangerously close to poly.

Cat intestines or nothing, I say.
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I honestly have no idea. This is why I start threads on TTW, I have played tennis with gut and poly but am no racquet or string expert, nor did I realize there was such a wide range of stringing options.
 
Karma Tennis

Karma Tennis

Legend
Russeljones said:
I have a hard time imagining this. The firmness and profile of the poly string is lost. How can a wider, less firm, profile produce a similar interaction with the ball? We are talking about grip, right? The poly string bites into the ball as the string bed makes contact at an angle. That friction would be significantly reduced if the string property is modified as described. Maybe you have an explanation.
Click to expand...

It all gets down to "How much spin is enough?"

If every player is using a similar string, then the relative differences between spin rates will be the same.
 
Russeljones

Russeljones

Talk Tennis Guru
Karma Tennis said:
It all gets down to "How much spin is enough?"

If every player is using a similar string, then the relative differences between spin rates will be the same.
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It's not so simple, I think. This is why I initially said some players will have to rebuild their game from scratch. If you are relying on certain clearance and inertia that will no longer be there, your effectiveness is going down the drain. If a forehand to someone's backhand was reaching him at shoulder height, but this is now say 10 inches lower and 10% slower, you might be losing the initiative. It's a very complicated scenario.
 
Russeljones

Russeljones

Talk Tennis Guru
Russeljones said:
It's not so simple, I think. This is why I initially said some players will have to rebuild their game from scratch. If you are relying on certain clearance and inertia that will no longer be there, your effectiveness is going down the drain. If a forehand to someone's backhand was reaching him at shoulder height, but this is now say 10 inches lower and 10% slower, you might be losing the initiative. It's a very complicated scenario.
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PS: for those wondering, the rpm triggers and regulates the Magnus Effect that ensures the ball goes downward after it clears the net despite the huge force the player exerts partially upwards. The rpm then also helps transfer this horizontal momentum once the ball hits the court. More rpm = more horizontal momentum (heavy ball).
 
GhostOfNKDM

GhostOfNKDM

Hall of Fame
@Kralingen @Russeljones - whatever changes in regulation, if any, will need to happen in juniors and challengers first.

Its too late for the curent crop of pros to adapt their games when they grew up with polys and big size heads.
 
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