Hypothetical: the ATP bans poly strings. What changes?
- Thread starter Kralingen
- Start date
abmk
Bionic Poster
only appears so because nadal doesn't come in as much and thus doesn't have more of his net game exposed. plus consistent bouncing grass helps.
Lendl's biggest problem on grass was his RoS on inconsistent bouncing grass vs very good SnVers.
He actually should have/could have stayed back more on 2nd serves on grass ala Borg.
Karma Tennis
Legend
Well the main aim is to win the point any way you can. Nadal was clearly more successful at doing that at Wimbledon than Lendl was.
But I agreew with what you say about him staying back more often a la Borg. And IIRC, many commentators back in the day said exactly the same thing. They couldn't understand why Lendl didn't grind out points on grass the way he did on clay and HC. It was almost as if Lendl felt he had to compete with his S&V opponents using their methods rather than trusting in his own strengths to do the job. Borg, and Wilander to a lesser extent, proved it was possible. Pity for Lendl really. But probably had a bit to do with the influence his coach had over him.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
There will be changes for sure though I don't think rallying would nosedive. Only people who haven't actually survived yawnfests like Agassi Chang 96 AO would think poly alone boosted rallying.
But without poly, a tennis player's ability to flatten condition differences and play the same everywhere would be diminished. When you look at pre poly videos on grass, you can see players almost crouching and often hitting groundies from well below the hips. This was a necessary ability at that time. You couldn't use poly to generate so much spin that the ball kicked up even on grass. You had to have effective shots for balls that kept low and too many on tour today don't anymore. Related, you would need serious skills in digging out slices because it would be much harder without poly to help get the ball up over.
In essence, the game would look a lot like the 90s again but with still more uniform stroke production and greater physicality and athleticism.
But without poly, a tennis player's ability to flatten condition differences and play the same everywhere would be diminished. When you look at pre poly videos on grass, you can see players almost crouching and often hitting groundies from well below the hips. This was a necessary ability at that time. You couldn't use poly to generate so much spin that the ball kicked up even on grass. You had to have effective shots for balls that kept low and too many on tour today don't anymore. Related, you would need serious skills in digging out slices because it would be much harder without poly to help get the ball up over.
In essence, the game would look a lot like the 90s again but with still more uniform stroke production and greater physicality and athleticism.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
They could but they couldn't hit through with spin the way today's players can. When I am able to, I will post videos from pre and post poly of clay court tennis. The difference is very apparent. And I am talking 90s in both cases.
droliver
Professional
No, “fast” grass was an absolute mess by the mid 90’s. Literally an unwatchable brand of the game at times on the men’s side. A large % of points less then 4-5 strokes is not very entertaining tennis. There was a reason Wimbledon and others but the bullet with the grass mix and some ball changes.
Grass of the last 15 years or so actually now might be the most entertaining surface ironically. It’s still a much faster style of play, just different. Just some incredible points
Karma Tennis
Legend
The Wimbledon of the mid 1990s was a mess because of the racquets and the strings. It had nothing to do with the surface which had been in use for several decades prior without any issues.
The ideal Wimbledon would favour grass court specialists, big Servers and Serve and Volley play. All that is required to promote this is smaller hooped tennis racquets and mandating the use of natural gut or synthetic gut strings only - no copoly or aramid strings allowed.
Karma Tennis
Legend
Composition of the racquet isn't the issue. It is the hoop size that is the issue and the strings too.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Right, so there used to be this match of Costa v/s Pontas at Barcelona 1997 up on youtube but it's gone.
Nevermind, watch both Kuerten and Bruguera hit the same shot - inside in - in different matches.
Bruguera in 1991 at MC v/s Becker. @ 1:23
And Kuerten hitting inside in at RG v/s Bruguera @ 0:36
Kuerten is hitting through a lot, lot more and yet you can see the spin in the kind of parabolic trajectory of the ball. This, apart from Kuerten's talent, is why Muster or Bruguera were at a loss to figure him out in 1997. He was already showing what poly could do and it created a ruckus then because players tried to say these were like spaghetti strings (which were expressly banned in tennis).
Rafa4LifeEver
G.O.A.T.
Zverev & Sinner?
CHillTennis
Hall of Fame
I think Pete Sampras would come back out of retirement and would run Djokovic and Nadal out of the game.
Oval_Solid
Hall of Fame
points would be shorter
serving would improve
power would become more important than consistency once again
maybe less tennis elbow?
serving would improve
power would become more important than consistency once again
maybe less tennis elbow?
Both have powerful strokes that can benefit from NG. In fact, anyone who doesn’t rely on heavy spin can benefit from NG.
we are high on the scale behind dolphins
Rafa4LifeEver
G.O.A.T.
Sinner is one of the heaviest spin generators, sir.
But his style doesn’t rely on the heavy spin. He doesn’t do the loopy stuff that Nadal, FAA, Ruud do.
droliver
Professional
??? raquets and strings. The players were largely using 85-95 sq inch heads with full gut in the mid 1990's. The serves had gotten so big by so many players it was producing just a terrible product to watch was the problem, but it wasn't really an equipment issue. The surface was imbalanced toward a style of play that was no longer enjoyable, analogous to how old golf courses were made obsolete by bigger, stronger golfers hitting 350+ yds off the tee. The actual play on grass in 2022 is quite interesting to watch. It's still faster with more weird bounces and rewards big serves, but you get a lot of balls in play that are unpredictable
Karma Tennis
Legend
Modern grass tournaments are a lot more like Clay and HC tournaments than they are like the grass tournaments of the 1990s and earlier.
I do not see a problem with Big Servers dominating on grass. I never saw a problem with having grass court specialists and clay court specialist - where often the players would not mix successfully
The main reason Wimbledon descended into a terrible product in the 1990s was because of the Scoring system. Wimbledon should have introduced a 5th Set Tiebreaker decades ago. They finally introduced one a couple of years back.
I don't see how all these poly arguments hold much water when Djokovic is using gut mains
Karma Tennis
Legend
Get two identical raccquets.
String one with a full bed of copoly. String the other one with Nat. Gut mains and copoly crosses.
Specify to the person stringing your racquets that you want them to come off the stringing machine with the same DT value.
Then go and hit with both of them alternating raquets after every few points.
That might get you to reconsider the whole copoly argument.
Just state your point without introducing experiments.
Russeljones
Talk Tennis Guru
And this is the thread you singled out?
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
I would stop watching ATP tennis if they did that.
Oval_Solid
Hall of Fame
they should use a ball that doesnt spin as much
Russeljones
Talk Tennis Guru
It's the most realistic change. Less fluff.
Easiest too, probably cheapest as well. They can’t force players to play with certain strings but balls can and have been modified along the years, perhaps in the wrong direction though.
Karma Tennis
Legend
My point is that Djokovic would not have the same level of control using a full bed of NG as they do with Champions Choice hybrid.
Copoly string in the bed, even if it just in the crosses makes a huge difference to the playability of the racquet and increases the margin for error immensely.
Anyone who has tried the "experiment" recognises that within minutes.
So using a full bed of Copoly enhances the playability even more than that.
Anyway, I don't know why you replied to my post talking about court conditions and scoring systems,with a point about racquet strings.
Karma Tennis
Legend
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Why doesn't he use full poly then?
Your post was linked to strings if you take a look back.
Karma Tennis
Legend
He uses Natural Gut in the mains for comfort.
Novak has suffered from tennis elbow for decades. The use of Full poly would have ended his career 5 years ago.
Kralingen
Talk Tennis Guru
That's not why he uses NG.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
If they had to use synthetic gut strings without any poly on graphite racquets (like the 1990s), then quite a bit would change, especially on grass. Serves would dominate a lot more on grass as returning would be harder to control. The likes of Berrettini, Kyrgios and Isner would fancy their chances more.
Players would have to work harder with each given rally shot in terms of control, as each shot would be naturally flatter and thus the higher risk of error. This is more of a factor on clay and hardcourt. Nadal loves a lot of topspin, and he would have to put more into his shots to get the desired spin.
Also in the 1990s, you had 16 seeds in the majors, and thus those 16 seeds could meet players ranked 17-32 in the first round and/or second round.
Players would have to work harder with each given rally shot in terms of control, as each shot would be naturally flatter and thus the higher risk of error. This is more of a factor on clay and hardcourt. Nadal loves a lot of topspin, and he would have to put more into his shots to get the desired spin.
Also in the 1990s, you had 16 seeds in the majors, and thus those 16 seeds could meet players ranked 17-32 in the first round and/or second round.
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Mustard
Bionic Poster
A bit of gut gives the shots a certain flatness that 100% poly wouldn't. Djokovic likes that for his cross-court backhand in particular.
Karma Tennis
Legend
Well you can believe what you believe. And I will know what I know
For sure NG offers several benefits to Novak in the same way it does to several other player. But the comfort factor is particularly important to Novak because of the issues he has had with his right arm over the years.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Why doesn't everybody use this gut + poly pattern if it's the ideal combo?
mike danny
Bionic Poster
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Fedal in this scenario. Does Nadal's FH still kick up over Fed's BH?
Kralingen
Talk Tennis Guru
But that doesn’t make any sense because he’s used NG mains since way before the 2017 elbow issuesWell you can believe what you believe. And I will know what I know
For sure NG offers several benefits to Novak in the same way it does to several other player. But the comfort factor is particularly important to Novak because of the issues he has had with his right arm over the years.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
It would be harder to keep up all the time. Any given shot without poly is flatter than with poly, but a player like Bruguera still hit a lot of topspin with synthetic gut. Bound to hurt your longevity in the game though. Courier even had "dead arm" for a while.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Some prefer the extra spin of full poly. It is the safest in terms of keeping unforced errors down.
Karma Tennis
Legend
Huh? It makes perfect sense.
NG allows him to continue to play to this day.
Full bed of stiff copoly may have forced him out of the game years ago.
Tennis related arm injuries don't appear overnight. They are the end result of years of swinging tennis racquets with the same repetative movement and absorbing the impact shock of the string bed impacting with the tennis ball.
henrytennisadelaide
Semi-Pro
I don't think this is the case. I think the top guys use gut for its supreme playability and feel etc just as every other player on the planet would if money were no object.
Karma Tennis
Legend
Kralingen
Talk Tennis Guru
Does anyone know if he played with gut when he first came on tour?
TheFifthSet
Legend
well first serve %’s would decrease tremendously too, so probably not significantly more missed returns.
droliver
Professional
And you completely missed the reason for the change then. Mid 90's grass was largely unwatchable on the men's side. More balls in play is inarguably more enjoyable to watch. That was the consensus of the ATP, Wimbledon, and broadcasters after fan interest was plummeting.
It's still also very distinct from clay and hardcourt play in many respects. Big serves are still bigger on it and players with them still tend to do well (Kyrgios, Berratini, Fritz, Isner. etc....) . There's certainly vastly more points played from the backcourt then 25 years ago, but it's a very different style because you can't move as aggressively and slice plays a much bigger role in establishing court position. All in all, its 1000% more interesting game then where it had gotten in the late 20th century
TennisLurker
Professional
If wimbledon were similar to clay Nadal wouldn't have lost to Dustin Brown or Rosol
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