Hypothetical: the ATP bans poly strings. What changes?

[Dolgopolov85]

Weren’t Bruguera, Berasetegui, and others able to generate massive amounts of topspin without poly in the 90s? Why would Nadal, Tsitsipas, and others with loopy swing paths suffer?

They could but they couldn't hit through with spin the way today's players can. When I am able to, I will post videos from pre and post poly of clay court tennis. The difference is very apparent. And I am talking 90s in both cases.

 

[droliver]

We also need much more surface variety. Grass should be very fast

No, “fast” grass was an absolute mess by the mid 90’s. Literally an unwatchable brand of the game at times on the men’s side. A large % of points less then 4-5 strokes is not very entertaining tennis. There was a reason Wimbledon and others but the bullet with the grass mix and some ball changes.

Grass of the last 15 years or so actually now might be the most entertaining surface ironically. It’s still a much faster style of play, just different. Just some incredible points

 

[Karma Tennis]

No, “fast” grass was an absolute mess by the mid 90’s. Literally an unwatchable brand of the game at times on the men’s side. A large % of points less then 4-5 strokes is not very entertaining tennis. There was a reason Wimbledon and others but the bullet with the grass mix and some ball changes.

Grass of the last 15 years or so actually now might be the most entertaining surface ironically. It’s still a much faster style of play, just different. Just some incredible points

The Wimbledon of the mid 1990s was a mess because of the racquets and the strings. It had nothing to do with the surface which had been in use for several decades prior without any issues.

The ideal Wimbledon would favour grass court specialists, big Servers and Serve and Volley play. All that is required to promote this is smaller hooped tennis racquets and mandating the use of natural gut or synthetic gut strings only - no copoly or aramid strings allowed.

 

[Karma Tennis]

They may as well ban nano tech and go back to wooden rackets then

Composition of the racquet isn't the issue. It is the hoop size that is the issue and the strings too.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

They could but they couldn't hit through with spin the way today's players can. When I am able to, I will post videos from pre and post poly of clay court tennis. The difference is very apparent. And I am talking 90s in both cases.

Right, so there used to be this match of Costa v/s Pontas at Barcelona 1997 up on youtube but it's gone.

Nevermind, watch both Kuerten and Bruguera hit the same shot - inside in - in different matches.

Bruguera in 1991 at MC v/s Becker. @ 1:23

And Kuerten hitting inside in at RG v/s Bruguera @ 0:36

Kuerten is hitting through a lot, lot more and yet you can see the spin in the kind of parabolic trajectory of the ball. This, apart from Kuerten's talent, is why Muster or Bruguera were at a loss to figure him out in 1997. He was already showing what poly could do and it created a ruckus then because players tried to say these were like spaghetti strings (which were expressly banned in tennis).

 

[Rafa4LifeEver]

Federer, Djokovic, Medvedev, Zverev, Sinner would benefit.
Nadal, Ruud, Thiem, Alcaraz, Rublev, FAA, Tsitsipas would be at disadvantage.

Zverev & Sinner?

 

[CHillTennis]

Let’s say the ATP decides modern tennis has gotten out of control and they ban all polyester/co-poly strings tomorrow. No racquet limitations, only strings - natural/multi gut are the only strings allowed.

I understand racquet tech and string physics on some level, but not enough to isolate its impact on the game. this is a question for the racquet experts and especially for the old timer constant “poly has ruined the game” crowd. How would things change? Would it be a big difference, totally reshaping the top 10 and top of the game? Small difference as players would adjust? Small difference for some playing styles but big difference for others?

How would the overall product look? Improved or worsened? No wrong answers here.

I think Pete Sampras would come back out of retirement and would run Djokovic and Nadal out of the game.

 

[Oval_Solid]

points would be shorter
serving would improve
power would become more important than consistency once again
maybe less tennis elbow?

 

[Arak]

Zverev & Sinner?

Both have powerful strokes that can benefit from NG. In fact, anyone who doesn’t rely on heavy spin can benefit from NG.

 

[chrisb]

Human's are animals too. Right?

we are high on the scale behind dolphins

 

[Rafa4LifeEver]

Both have powerful strokes that can benefit from NG. In fact, anyone who doesn’t rely on heavy spin can benefit from NG.

Sinner is one of the heaviest spin generators, sir.

 

[Arak]

Sinner is one of the heaviest spin generators, sir.

But his style doesn’t rely on the heavy spin. He doesn’t do the loopy stuff that Nadal, FAA, Ruud do.

 

[droliver]

The Wimbledon of the mid 1990s was a mess because of the racquets and the strings. It had nothing to do with the surface which had been in use for several decades prior without any issues.

The ideal Wimbledon would favour grass court specialists, big Servers and Serve and Volley play. All that is required to promote this is smaller hooped tennis racquets and mandating the use of natural gut or synthetic gut strings only - no copoly or aramid strings allowed.

??? raquets and strings. The players were largely using 85-95 sq inch heads with full gut in the mid 1990's. The serves had gotten so big by so many players it was producing just a terrible product to watch was the problem, but it wasn't really an equipment issue. The surface was imbalanced toward a style of play that was no longer enjoyable, analogous to how old golf courses were made obsolete by bigger, stronger golfers hitting 350+ yds off the tee. The actual play on grass in 2022 is quite interesting to watch. It's still faster with more weird bounces and rewards big serves, but you get a lot of balls in play that are unpredictable

 

[Karma Tennis]

??? raquets and strings. The players were largely using 85-95 sq inch heads with full gut in the mid 1990's. The serves had gotten so big by so many players it was producing just a terrible product to watch was the problem, but it wasn't really an equipment issue. The surface was imbalanced toward a style of play that was no longer enjoyable, analogous to how old golf courses were made obsolete by bigger, stronger golfers hitting 350+ yds off the tee. The actual play on grass in 2022 is quite interesting to watch. It's still faster with more weird bounces and rewards big serves, but you get a lot of balls in play that are unpredictable

Modern grass tournaments are a lot more like Clay and HC tournaments than they are like the grass tournaments of the 1990s and earlier.

I do not see a problem with Big Servers dominating on grass. I never saw a problem with having grass court specialists and clay court specialist - where often the players would not mix successfully

The main reason Wimbledon descended into a terrible product in the 1990s was because of the Scoring system. Wimbledon should have introduced a 5th Set Tiebreaker decades ago. They finally introduced one a couple of years back.

 

[Bambooman]

Modern grass tournaments are a lot more like Clay and HC tournaments than they are like the grass tournaments of the 1990s and earlier.

I do not see a problem with Big Servers dominating on grass. I never saw a problem with having grass court specialists and clay court specialist - where often the players would not mix successfully

The main reason Wimbledon descended into a terrible product in the 1990s was because of the Scoring system. Wimbledon should have introduced a 5th Set Tiebreaker decades ago. They finally introduced one a couple of years back.

I don't see how all these poly arguments hold much water when Djokovic is using gut mains

 

[Karma Tennis]

I don't see how all these poly arguments hold much water when Djokovic is using gut mains

Get two identical raccquets.

String one with a full bed of copoly. String the other one with Nat. Gut mains and copoly crosses.

Specify to the person stringing your racquets that you want them to come off the stringing machine with the same DT value.

Then go and hit with both of them alternating raquets after every few points.

That might get you to reconsider the whole copoly argument.

 

[Bambooman]

Get two identical raccquets.

String one with a full bed of copoly. String the other one with Nat. Gut mains and copoly crosses.

Specify to the person stringing your racquets that you want them to come off the stringing machine with the same DT value.

Then go and hit with both of them alternating raquets after every few points.

That might get you to reconsider the whole copoly argument.

Just state your point without introducing experiments.

 

[GregN]

I wish the ATP would ban stupid meaningless threads on TW

 

[Russeljones]

I wish the ATP would ban stupid meaningless threads on TW

And this is the thread you singled out?

 

[socallefty]

I would stop watching ATP tennis if they did that.

 

[Oval_Solid]

they should use a ball that doesnt spin as much

 

[Russeljones]

they should use a ball that doesnt spin as much

It's the most realistic change. Less fluff.

 

[Arak]

It's the most realistic change. Less fluff.

Easiest too, probably cheapest as well. They can’t force players to play with certain strings but balls can and have been modified along the years, perhaps in the wrong direction though.

 

[Karma Tennis]

Just state your point without introducing experiments.

My point is that Djokovic would not have the same level of control using a full bed of NG as they do with Champions Choice hybrid.

Copoly string in the bed, even if it just in the crosses makes a huge difference to the playability of the racquet and increases the margin for error immensely.

Anyone who has tried the "experiment" recognises that within minutes.

So using a full bed of Copoly enhances the playability even more than that.

Anyway, I don't know why you replied to my post talking about court conditions and scoring systems,with a point about racquet strings.

 

[Karma Tennis]

.

 

[Bambooman]

My point is that Djokovic would not have the same level of control using a full bed of NG as they do with Champions Choice hybrid.

Copoly string in the bed, even if it just in the crosses makes a huge difference to the playability of the racquet and increases the margin for error immensely.

Anyone who has tried the "experiment" recognises that within minutes.

So using a full bed of Copoly enhances the playability even more than that.

Anyway, I don't know why you replied to my post talking about court conditions and scoring systems,with a point about racquet strings.

Why doesn't he use full poly then?

Your post was linked to strings if you take a look back.

 

[Karma Tennis]

Why doesn't he use full poly then?

Your post was linked to strings if you take a look back.

He uses Natural Gut in the mains for comfort.

Novak has suffered from tennis elbow for decades. The use of Full poly would have ended his career 5 years ago.

 

[Kralingen]

He uses Natural Gut in the mains for comfort.

Novak has suffered from tennis elbow for decades. The use of Full poly would have ended his career 5 years ago.

That's not why he uses NG.

 

[Mustard]

If they had to use synthetic gut strings without any poly on graphite racquets (like the 1990s), then quite a bit would change, especially on grass. Serves would dominate a lot more on grass as returning would be harder to control. The likes of Berrettini, Kyrgios and Isner would fancy their chances more.

Players would have to work harder with each given rally shot in terms of control, as each shot would be naturally flatter and thus the higher risk of error. This is more of a factor on clay and hardcourt. Nadal loves a lot of topspin, and he would have to put more into his shots to get the desired spin.

Also in the 1990s, you had 16 seeds in the majors, and thus those 16 seeds could meet players ranked 17-32 in the first round and/or second round.

 

[Mustard]

Why doesn't he use full poly then?

Your post was linked to strings if you take a look back.

A bit of gut gives the shots a certain flatness that 100% poly wouldn't. Djokovic likes that for his cross-court backhand in particular.

 

[Karma Tennis]

That's not why he uses NG.

Well you can believe what you believe. And I will know what I know

For sure NG offers several benefits to Novak in the same way it does to several other player. But the comfort factor is particularly important to Novak because of the issues he has had with his right arm over the years.

 

[mike danny]

A bit of gut gives the shots a certain flatness that 100% poly wouldn't. Djokovic likes that for his cross-court backhand in particular.

Why doesn't everybody use this gut + poly pattern if it's the ideal combo?

 

[mike danny]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Fedal in this scenario. Does Nadal's FH still kick up over Fed's BH?

 

[Kralingen]

Well you can believe what you believe. And I will know what I know

For sure NG offers several benefits to Novak in the same way it does to several other player. But the comfort factor is particularly important to Novak because of the issues he has had with his right arm over the years.

But that doesn’t make any sense because he’s used NG mains since way before the 2017 elbow issues

 

[Mustard]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Fedal in this scenario. Does Nadal's FH still kick up over Fed's BH?

It would be harder to keep up all the time. Any given shot without poly is flatter than with poly, but a player like Bruguera still hit a lot of topspin with synthetic gut. Bound to hurt your longevity in the game though. Courier even had "dead arm" for a while.

 

[Mustard]

Why doesn't everybody use this gut + poly pattern if it's the ideal combo?

Some prefer the extra spin of full poly. It is the safest in terms of keeping unforced errors down.

 

[Karma Tennis]

But that doesn’t make any sense because he’s used NG mains since way before the 2017 elbow issues

Huh? It makes perfect sense.

NG allows him to continue to play to this day.

Full bed of stiff copoly may have forced him out of the game years ago.

Tennis related arm injuries don't appear overnight. They are the end result of years of swinging tennis racquets with the same repetative movement and absorbing the impact shock of the string bed impacting with the tennis ball.

 

[henrytennisadelaide]

Huh? It makes perfect sense.

NG allows him to continue to play to this day.

Full bed of stiff copoly may have forced him out of the game years ago.

Tennis related arm injuries don't appear overnight. They are the end result of years of swinging tennis racquets with the same repetative movement and absorbing the impact shock of the string bed impacting with the tennis ball.

I don't think this is the case. I think the top guys use gut for its supreme playability and feel etc just as every other player on the planet would if money were no object.

 

[Bambooman]

I wouldn't say every player would. I think Nadal could afford gut. Even custom made from Spanish fighting Bulls.

 

[Blade0324]

The only real difference I see is that players would be bringing like 10 plus racquets to each match for broken strings

 

[Karma Tennis]

I don't think this is the case. I think the top guys use gut for its supreme playability and feel etc just as every other player on the planet would if money were no object.

Sure.

But I am talking specifically about Novak, not any other players.

 

[Kralingen]

I wouldn't say every player would. I think Nadal could afford gut. Even custom made from Spanish fighting Bulls.

Does anyone know if he played with gut when he first came on tour?

 

[TheFifthSet]

All of this is sounding like we’d see a ton more unreturned serves, a lot of mugs missing passing shots, and a lot more UEs and worse play overall.

well first serve %’s would decrease tremendously too, so probably not significantly more missed returns.

 

[droliver]

Modern grass tournaments are a lot more like Clay and HC tournaments than they are like the grass tournaments of the 1990s and earlier.

And you completely missed the reason for the change then. Mid 90's grass was largely unwatchable on the men's side. More balls in play is inarguably more enjoyable to watch. That was the consensus of the ATP, Wimbledon, and broadcasters after fan interest was plummeting.

It's still also very distinct from clay and hardcourt play in many respects. Big serves are still bigger on it and players with them still tend to do well (Kyrgios, Berratini, Fritz, Isner. etc....) . There's certainly vastly more points played from the backcourt then 25 years ago, but it's a very different style because you can't move as aggressively and slice plays a much bigger role in establishing court position. All in all, its 1000% more interesting game then where it had gotten in the late 20th century

 

[TennisLurker]

If wimbledon were similar to clay Nadal wouldn't have lost to Dustin Brown or Rosol

 

[Karma Tennis]

And you completely missed the reason for the change then. Mid 90's grass was largely unwatchable on the men's side. More balls in play is inarguably more enjoyable to watch. That was the consensus of the ATP, Wimbledon, and broadcasters after fan interest was plummeting.

It's still also very distinct from clay and hardcourt play in many respects. Big serves are still bigger on it and players with them still tend to do well (Kyrgios, Berratini, Fritz, Isner. etc....) . There's certainly vastly more points played from the backcourt then 25 years ago, but it's a very different style because you can't move as aggressively and slice plays a much bigger role in establishing court position. All in all, its 1000% more interesting game then where it had gotten in the late 20th century

The primary reason for the change was MONEY. The TV Broadcasters basically instigated the change. Of course the ATP followed suite because it was in the best financial interests of the players to go after the money.

The AELTCC didn't care either way. But they went along for the ride. If you think the AELTCC worry about fan interest then I suggest you don't understand the AELTCC.

If wimbledon were similar to clay Nadal wouldn't have lost to Dustin Brown or Rosol

I never said that the modern grass is similar to clay. I said this ...

Modern grass tournaments are a lot more like Clay and HC tournaments than they are like the grass tournaments of the 1990s and earlier.

Both you and droliver fired blank shots there.

 

[crimson87]

Yeah sure modern WB is so interesting... Nothing better than watching 2 6'3 and up bolleteri bots with their big but erratic serves, non existent slices and netgames and ugly 2 handed backhands stroll around the court with poor mobility

Yay modern tennis!

 

[Olli Jokinen]

Didn’t Agassi famously say that when he tried poly, he could hit the ball out and have it land in? That implies that he could use much more powerful strokes on an average basis and still keep the ball in play

From anecdotal experience, I’m tall and my serve mechanics are much more professional than the rest of my game. My first experience with poly was that it became trivially easy to kick serves up over the heads of short people. I don’t usually play with a full bed, but when I do I’d have to really mess up to drop serve against a short player. I can imagine the difference in what pros are able to do with the ball off the ground feels similarly or more monumental to them.

Personally I think they should regulate the strings, but also racquet head sizes, racquet composition, and range of swing weights. Where we are now is like if the NHL never regulated the size of goalie pads or the MLB allowed aluminum bats.

A similar situation might be where the NHL allowed composite sticks, and as a result wood sticks completely vanished from the league in a few short years. The composite sticks greatly improve shooting potency. The NHL allowed this change because goalie equipment, goalie technique, and team defensive systems had really reduced offense and the league wanted to increase offense. Probably similar to the ATP wanting to get away from one and done S&V of the Sampras era on fast courts

Edberg returns and wins the CYGS.