Was Graf "slumping" during Seles' supremacy?

I grew up watching Navratilova, Graf, Becker, Conners, Lendl, Edberg and those were the times when access to live matches was not that easy. I remember had to plan in advance to watch all the slams at a club and later, a friends place. I started playing tennis as a young teenager in 1985 too.

I don't mean to challenge the views of anyone here, but taking the liberty to share some facts, available publicly, in chronological order as well. Please feel free to correct me in case, though I should be accurate in mentioning all the numbers and details. I think we all agree that 1990's was a different era all together and competence of Seles and Graf was as good as the best that was in any era, if not better.

Graf was inhuman and she was developed like that by her father who actually made her go into practice even after a 10 hour flight directly, with a jet lag. Her training regime was so tough that she actually hated it at times, which she mentions in her interview. Her robotic approach at times during matches, particularly while getting up from the breaks (before umpire call of "time"), frustrated many.

In 1990, a playboy model surfaced claiming to be the mother of Peter Graf's son. This scandal, slowly and gradually, escalated and devasted the entire family. All the details, including the timing are still available online. Media in those days was worst as the hunger for scandal was much greater than todays and journalists were like sharks. The family even thought of leaving Germany for good. Graf went though a rough patch and started to lose key matches, and important to mention here is Seles had not yet started her winning streak. So Seles's peak had not started yet, but all-time-low period of Graf started.

Graf's annual winning percentage declined from 98% in 1989 to 94% in 1990 and then 89% in 1991 as she lost 8 matches. Now against whom did she lose those 8 matches
-2 against Novotna
-4 to Sabatini
-1 each to Sanchez and Navratilova
I don't think she lost any match to Seles in 1991, which in fact is the year when Seles winning streak started. nothing to take any credit away from Seles, but lets not also tarnish the greatness of Graf because Graf lost mostly to other players who cleared the pathway for Seles. Yes, highly probable that had Graf won and reached finals, Seles would have defeated her, but that's why I am summarising all the numbers. Graf had a bad patch.
In 1992, Graf continued to lose, she lost a total of 7 matches
-2 to sabatini
-1 each to Lori, Novotna, Capriati, Sanches and Seles. It would be worth mentioning here that out of all these losses, the toughest one was against seles as Seles took it to 3rd set 10-8. And also important that the same year, Graf defeated Seles easily in Wimbledons final 6-2,6-1.

So Seles had won 7 slams till this time. Could Graf have won those 7 if Seles had not born?. No, because Graf lost 5 of those 7 slams even without playing Seles.

Now comes 1993, the unfortunate year in which Seles got stabbed. Graf lost AO to Seles, continued her losing streak by losing to Navratilova in February, a final to Sanchez in March and another final to Sanchez in April.

So let's put some facts upright. During those 26 months period, Graf lost to almost all her key opponents. her win-loss record against Seles was almost 50/50 surprisingly as they played 5 matches (the first one , RG 1990 was the one I mentioned Seles won before her winning times started). However, her win/loss record against Sanchez and Sabatini remained extremely poor. Guess her win/loss record against Sabatini 7 losses against just 1 win. If we were forced to chose one person who destroyed Graf during that time, it was definitely Sabatini and numbers tell us that Seles would be too down on that list. Important to highlight, her loss to Sabatini was her last loss ever to Sabatini. She played another 7 matches against Sabatini after that and won all of them.

I have tried to capture everything from my memory and the records. Happy to be stand corrected in case i may have made an error anywhere.

10nispro said:

If we were forced to chose one person who destroyed Graf during that time, it was definitely Sabatini and numbers tell us that Seles would be too down on that list.

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From 1990-1993, Sabatini had some wins against Graf, but Graf was 3-1 against her in Majors. Conversely, while Graf had some wins against Seles in this period, Graf was 1-3 against her in Majors.

buscemi said:

From 1990-1993, Sabatini had some wins against Graf, but Graf was 3-1 against her in Majors. Conversely, while Graf had some wins against Seles in this period, Graf was 1-3 against her in Majors.

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The rationale of summarising the stats was not the performance in majors, it is just to show a winning/losing trend. As just a year before in 1989, Graf lost only 2 matches in the entire year, winning 97. That went down to 94 % and rocked bottom at 87% in 1991. And if we include the whole of 1990 as well as 1993, then she played 11 matches against Sabatini losing 7, and 7 matches against Seles, losing 4.

10nispro said:

The rationale of summarising the stats was not the performance in majors, it is just to show a winning/losing trend. As just a year before in 1989, Graf lost only 2 matches in the entire year, winning 97. That went down to 94 % and rocked bottom at 87% in 1991. And if we include the whole of 1990 as well as 1993, then she played 11 matches against Sabatini losing 7, and 7 matches against Seles, losing 4.

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The fact is that Seles was never the same player after the stabbing, so Graf had very weak competition for the rest of her career, until the Williams Sisters arrived on the scene. Seles won her pre stabbing slams because she was tougher than Graf in the finals 90-93

thrust said:

The fact is that Seles was never the same player after the stabbing, so Graf had very weak competition for the rest of her career, until the Williams Sisters arrived on the scene. Seles won her pre stabbing slams because she was tougher than Graf in the finals 90-93

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I have presented the numbers above. Her being tougher than Graf statement is not supported by the numbers. The point is that Seles was the same after stabbing as she defeated everybody after her comeback except for Graf until AO, the year Graf retired in 1999. If only Graf would have retired (or got defeated by other players), Seles would have won a few more slams just like the 1996 AO which she won because Graf did not play. Seles's highest annual winning percentage, even during her peak, was 93%, much lower than the best of Graf or Navratilova's. And talking about competition, the same players who were defeating Graf during 90-93 (making pathway for Seles to win) played till as much time as Graf played. in 1990's, there was a stream of new players, and it was not like 2008 when Henin retired and there wasn't any competition. Capriati, Lindsay Davenport, Mary Pierce, Martina Hingis, Martinez; all of these came well before the Williams sisters.

10nispro said:

The point is that Seles was the same after stabbing as she defeated everybody after her comeback except for Graf until AO, the year Graf retired in 1999.

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Do you really think Seles from 1991-1993 is losing to Novotná in the 1996 French Open QF or Studeníková in the 1996 Wimbledon second round? She was clearly worse after the stabbing. And, even if I could buy the argument that Seles was the same after the stabbing, she lost the improvements that she would have made in her game from 1993-1995.

Graf v Hingis stats?

10nispro said:

I have presented the numbers above. Her being tougher than Graf statement is not supported by the numbers. The point is that Seles was the same after stabbing as she defeated everybody after her comeback except for Graf until AO, the year Graf retired in 1999. If only Graf would have retired (or got defeated by other players), Seles would have won a few more slams just like the 1996 AO which she won because Graf did not play. Seles's highest annual winning percentage, even during her peak, was 93%, much lower than the best of Graf or Navratilova's. And talking about competition, the same players who were defeating Graf during 90-93 (making pathway for Seles to win) played till as much time as Graf played. in 1990's, there was a stream of new players, and it was not like 2008 when Henin retired and there wasn't any competition. Capriati, Lindsay Davenport, Mary Pierce, Martina Hingis, Martinez; all of these came well before the Williams sisters.

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The fact IS the Graf and Seles were way above the rest of the field by 93, so when Seles was attacked, Graf had the field to herself. Of course, she had some loses, as NO great player will ALL the time. They are human, after all.

buscemi said:

Do you really think Seles from 1991-1993 is losing to Novotná in the 1996 French Open QF or Studeníková in the 1996 Wimbledon second round? She was clearly worse after the stabbing. And, even if I could buy the argument that Seles was the same after the stabbing, she lost the improvements that she would have made in her game from 1993-1995.

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You have failed to mention that she won against Novotna in 1995 in the USO and that was after stabbing. Novotna's annual winning percentage peaked in 1996 (so if you can acknowledge Sele's peak, why deny Novotna of what she deserves) and she defeated not just Seles, she defeated Graf, Sanchez, Hingis and many others in 1996.
And as I mentioned before, Seles was never near-to-invincible. Her peak was 1992 and she lost to 5 players including Jennifer Capriati. In 1993 before stabbing, she got defeated by old Navratilova (who lost to the same Novotna two months later)

Studenikova in wimbledon? Did Seles ever go through beyond QF in wimbledon except for once in 1992? And such examples come in everyones' career; Steffi losing to Lori in 1994 Wimbledon R1

Seles's injury was a minor wound. Pursuing her tennis career after that was her choice and taking an unneeded long break was her decision. She moved to USA and her sympathies obviously multiplied as she, advertantly or inadvertently, played the victim card.

10nispro said:

You have failed to mention that she won against Novotna in 1995 in the USO and that was after stabbing. Novotna's annual winning percentage peaked in 1996 (so if you can acknowledge Sele's peak, why deny Novotna of what she deserves) and she defeated not just Seles, she defeated Graf, Sanchez, Hingis and many others in 1996.
And as I mentioned before, Seles was never near-to-invincible. Her peak was 1992 and she lost to 5 players including Jennifer Capriati. In 1993 before stabbing, she got defeated by old Navratilova (who lost to the same Novotna two months later)

Studenikova in wimbledon? Did Seles ever go through beyond QF in wimbledon except for once in 1992? And such examples come in everyones' career; Steffi losing to Lori in 1994 Wimbledon R1

Seles's injury was a minor wound. Pursuing her tennis career after that was her choice and taking an unneeded long break was her decision. She moved to USA and her sympathies obviously multiplied as she, advertantly or inadvertently, played the victim card.

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1. Sure, Seles beat Novotná at the 1995 U.S. Open and then lost to her at the 1996 French Open, where she had won 3 straight titles at ages 16-18 before the stabbing. I don't think many people think pre-stabbing Seles loses to Novotná in the 1996 French Open (and in straight sets, to boot).

2. Yes, Novotná played great in 1996, but you also need to take that into account when considering the Graf/Sabatini H2H and how much evidence it provides of Graf slumping. Sabatini played her best between Wimbledon/U.S. Open 1990-1993.

3. Before the stabbing, Seles played Wimbledon at 15, 16, and 18, making a final (losing to Graf), making a QF (losing 9-7 in the third set to finalist Garrison), and losing in the fourth round (to Graf). I don't see that Seles losing to Studeníková in the second round.

4. Seles was pretty invincible in the months leading up to the stabbing. She won the 1992 U.S. Open without dropping a set, losing a total of 27 games. Starting with the 1992 U.S. Open, she was 36-1 before the stabbing, with the only loss coming in the final of Paris, 7-6 in the third set, to Navratilova when Seles had the flu.

buscemi said:

1. Sure, Seles beat Novotná at the 1995 U.S. Open and then lost to her at the 1996 French Open, where she had won 3 straight titles at ages 16-18 before the stabbing. I don't think many people think pre-stabbing Seles loses to Novotná in the 1996 French Open (and in straight sets, to boot).

2. Yes, Novotná played great in 1996, but you also need to take that into account when considering the Graf/Sabatini H2H and how much evidence it provides of Graf slumping. Sabatini played her best between Wimbledon/U.S. Open 1990-1993.

3. Before the stabbing, Seles played Wimbledon at 15, 16, and 18, making a final (losing to Graf), making a QF (losing 9-7 in the third set to finalist Garrison), and losing in the fourth round (to Graf). I don't see that Seles losing to Studeníková in the second round.

4. Seles was pretty invincible in the months leading up to the stabbing. She won the 1992 U.S. Open without dropping a set, losing a total of 27 games. Starting with the 1992 U.S. Open, she was 36-1 before the stabbing, with the only loss coming in the final of Paris, 7-6 in the third set, to Navratilova when Seles had the flu.

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36 straight wins is not a streak dude and doesn't even come in the top 10, or lets say, it doesn't even beat the top 4 by Graf herself. Many people who watched tennis then can easily believe that pre stabbing Seles could lose to Novotna, and those who were not there and only review the records/recordings, I can share that her first winning streak, started with a loss to Laura Gieldermiester and finished with a loss to Zina Garrison between which she won 36 continuous games; so if she could lose to those two at her peak, "many" people can easily relate her loss to Novotna. I understand that you want to see her losing in the second round to an ordinary player, the fact is that any player can be defeated even she herself lost in USO 3rd round to a nobody in 1990.

Graf was slumping, and that's what I have said. And that's the evidence I have provided. There is no argument. Graf was slumping and that's what was capitalised by Seles.

10nispro said:

36 straight wins is not a streak dude and doesn't even come in the top 10, or lets say, it doesn't even beat the top 4 by Graf herself. Many people who watched tennis then can easily believe that pre stabbing Seles could lose to Novotna.

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Seles was 26-1 at the French Open before the stabbing, with 3 straight titles and her only loss being a three setter to Graf in the 1989 QF when she was 15. I don't think many people have Novotná beating that version of Seles at the French Open on their bingo card.

buscemi said:

Seles was 26-1 at the French Open before the stabbing, with 3 straight titles and her only loss being a three setter to Graf in the 1989 QF when she was 15. I don't think many people have Novotná beating that version of Seles at the French Open on their bingo card.

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Your arguments now don't warrant a response. Navratilova was 76-0 (not like 26-1 of a selected tournament) and she lost 77th match to Helena Sukova who was not even top 5 then. And with your logic, lol, "many people" would want a player to continue winning forever based on a 4 year trend. Its sports dude where every day is a new day, leave alone the aging factor along with new entrants.

10nispro said:

Your arguments now don't warrant a response. Navratilova was 76-0 (not like 26-1 of a selected tournament) and she lost 77th match to Helena Sukova who was not even top 5 then. And with your logic, lol, "many people" would want a player to continue winning forever based on a 4 year trend. Its sports dude where every day is a new day, leave alone the aging factor along with new entrants.

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My argument isn't that it's impossible that Novotná could have beaten pre-stabbing Seles at the 1996 French Open, just that it is very unlikely. You made the argument that "Seles was the same after stabbing." My point is that the loss to Novotná in straight sets in the 1996 French Open QF is evidence that contradicts that claim. You seem to think it's consistent with your claim. I disagree.

buscemi said:

My argument isn't that it's impossible that Novotná could have beaten pre-stabbing Seles at the 1996 French Open, just that it is very unlikely. You made the argument that "Seles was the same after stabbing." My point is that the loss to Novotná in straight sets in the 1996 French Open QF is evidence that contradicts that claim. You seem to think it's consistent with your claim. I disagree.

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We can agree to disagree here. Because you are comparing situation years apart. And your biggest assumption is that a player will remain the same as time pass by. Hingis was a much better player , reaching R4 at just 14, SF 15 and reaching 4 consecutive finals (winning 3 out of those) at just 16. Had she been stabbed, it would have been said that she would have won 30 majors but tennis is not just extrapolation and forecast.
So, we will agree to disagree.

Well if Seles never existed Graf wins only 4 slams from 90-92 (the only one she gains is 90 French). Compared to her 8 from 87-89 and 10 from 93-96 (11 without Seles). I guess you do the math, LOL! Or another way to look at it, Graf wins 10 from 87-90 without Seles (gaining 90 French), only 2 from 91-92 without Seles, and 11 from 93-96 without Seles (gaining 93 Australian). So in 91-92 averages only 1 per year even with Seles, vs an average of 2.5 per year from 87-90 and 2.75 per year from 93-96. Again pretty simple answer.

agressivefloater said:

Well if Seles never existed Graf wins only 4 slams from 90-92 (the only one she gains is 90 French).

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You don't think Graf wins the 1992 French Open?

buscemi said:

You don't think Graf wins the 1992 French Open?

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Naw Sabatini beats her very likely. She owned Graf that period (won 7 of their last 8 matches), clay was Sabatini's best surface and Graf's 2nd worst (after rebound ace) and the one win was Graf just barely winning on grass, her best surface by far, and Sabatini's worst. And even in that match Sabatini served for it twice, on grass. Honestly on clay at that time Sabatini is probably a worse opponent for Graf than Seles is, given what a nemisis opponent Sabatini was for Graf in general this time period, and Graf lost to even Seles, albeit just barely, and the semi final was equally as competitive as the final.

agressivefloater said:

Naw Sabatini beats her very likely. She owned Graf that period (won 7 of their last 8 matches), clay was Sabatini's best surface and Graf's 2nd worst (after rebound ace) and the one win was Graf just barely winning on grass, her best surface by far, and Sabatini's worst. And even in that match Sabatini served for it twice, on grass. Honestly on clay at that time Sabatini is probably a worse opponent for Graf than Seles is, given what a nemisis opponent Sabatini was for Graf in general this time period, and Graf lost to even Seles, albeit just barely, and the semi final was equally as competitive as the final.

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Please check all the matches of Sabatini vs Graf. Sabatini never owned Graf and was winning these matches because, as I have mentioned, Graf was going through a major stress. All tennis fans are fully aware of it as her father's scandal was the top page of every newspaper and tabloid. It was for the first time, that press was finally told after a year, not to ask any personal question from Graf (and yet there were violations). Graf started losing matches from everyone. The 7/8 number you have picked up is from the same bad patch. they played two dozen matches after that across all surfaces and Graf won all of them. Also check their records before. And that 7/8 is the example I use. She was being beaten by a player she used to own 7/8 and yet against Seles, her record was only 3/5 during the same coinciding period. By the way

10nispro said:

Please check all the matches of Sabatini vs Graf. Sabatini never owned Graf and was winning these matches because, as I have mentioned, Graf was going through a major stress. All tennis fans are fully aware of it as her father's scandal was the top page of every newspaper and tabloid. It was for the first time, that press was finally told after a year, not to ask any personal question from Graf (and yet there were violations). Graf started losing matches from everyone. The 7/8 number you have picked up is from the same bad patch. they played two dozen matches after that across all surfaces and Graf won all of them. Also check their records before.

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I already admited it is pretty clear to me Graf was playing worse in 91-92 with my breakdown of the slam victories even without Seles, so not sure what you are even arguing with me about. The fact is, as we both admit, Graf was poorer during this period. That only further bolsters the argument Sabatini would likely win their hypothetical meeting at the 92 French Open. She won 7 of 8 matches vs Graf going into that match, and it was on Sabatini's best surface, and easily won their previous clay meeting, and the semi final and final were similarily competitive matches vs the same opponent who is a far worse opponent for Sabatini than she is for Graf, so all that considered would likely win. We are not discussing who wins more often between Graf and Sabatini at their best, which everyone with a brain knows the answer to, we are discussing who would likely win the hypothetical 92 French Open final, during a period we both agree Graf was far from her best ever form to begin with.

agressivefloater said:

Naw Sabatini beats her very likely. She owned Graf that period (won 7 of their last 8 matches), clay was Sabatini's best surface and Graf's 2nd worst (after rebound ace) and the one win was Graf just barely winning on grass, her best surface by far, and Sabatini's worst. And even in that match Sabatini served for it twice, on grass. Honestly on clay at that time Sabatini is probably a worse opponent for Graf than Seles is, given what a nemisis opponent Sabatini was for Graf in general this time period, and Graf lost to even Seles, albeit just barely, and the semi final was equally as competitive as the final.

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It would have been an interesting match. As you note, Sabatini had that run against Graf, with her final win coming at Amelia Island in 1992. Then, Graf won their final 8 matches starting with Wimbledon 1992. So, a hypothetical 1992 French Open match would have fallen right between those two runs.

buscemi said:

It would have been an interesting match. As you note, Sabatini had that run against Graf, with her final win coming at Amelia Island in 1992. Then, Graf won their final 8 matches starting with Wimbledon 1992. So, a hypothetical 1992 French Open match would have fallen right between those two runs.

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Two single hand back-hand players, both Right handed, no grunting, Its a rarity in women's tennis (and about to become a rarity in mens too unfortunately)

buscemi said:

It would have been an interesting match. As you note, Sabatini had that run against Graf, with her final win coming at Amelia Island in 1992. Then, Graf won their final 8 matches starting with Wimbledon 1992. So, a hypothetical 1992 French Open match would have fallen right between those two runs.

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That is true, but I think Graf actually gained some confidence from the 92 French despite losing. Coming back from the bagel vs Sanchez in the semis, and coming back in the final despite faltering at the very end. Her confidence in general this period was at its all time lowest so the 92 French regained some of her old confidence despite not winning. Sabatini I think it was the opposite. Her loss to Seles in the semis was the 2nd big loss blowing a lead, the other to Graf in the 91 Wimbledon final. I think that along with not coming through in any majors after the 90 US Open despite her great regular tour performances sapped a lot of confidence, and she was already on the beginning of a slow road to irrelevance after RG 92 concluded. Notice how by the 92 US Open and 93 Australian Opens people had already stopped talking about her as a real contender for majors, something she had been all of 88-92 French Open, particularly the 90 US Open-92 French Open period. People always claim the 93 RG quarter final with Mary Joe Fernandez is what finished her, well sort of, but she was already kind of done for close to a year before then IMO.

agressivefloater said:

I already admited it is pretty clear to me Graf was playing worse in 91-92 with my breakdown of the slam victories even without Seles, so not sure what you are even arguing with me about. The fact is, as we both admit, Graf was poorer during this period. That only further bolsters the argument Sabatini would likely win their hypothetical meeting at the 92 French Open. She won 7 of 8 matches vs Graf going into that match, and it was on Sabatini's best surface, and easily won their previous clay meeting, and the semi final and final were similarily competitive matches vs the same opponent who is a far worse opponent for Sabatini than she is for Graf, so all that considered would likely win. We are not discussing who wins more often between Graf and Sabatini at their best, which everyone with a brain knows the answer to, we are discussing who would likely win the hypothetical 92 French Open final, during a period we both agree Graf was far from her best ever form to begin with.

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Did she easily win? That was the Amelia Island/Bausch & Lomb final that Sabatini won 6-2, 1-6, 6-3. Looks like Graf even generated more break points in the match, but only won 4/11 while Sabatni converted 5/9.

agressivefloater said:

That is true, but I think Graf actually gained some confidence from the 92 French despite losing. Coming back from the bagel vs Sanchez in the semis, and coming back in the final despite faltering at the very end. Her confidence in general this period was at its all time lowest so the 92 French regained some of her old confidence despite not winning. Sabatini I think it was the opposite. Her loss to Seles in the semis was the 2nd big loss blowing a lead, the other to Graf in the 91 Wimbledon final. I think that along with not coming through in any majors after the 90 US Open despite her great regular tour performances sapped a lot of confidence, and she was already on the beginning of a slow road to irrelevance after RG 92 concluded. Notice how by the 92 US Open and 93 Australian Opens people had already stopped talking about her as a real contender for majors, something she had been all of 88-92 French Open, particularly the 90 US Open-92 French Open period. People always claim the 93 RG quarter final with Mary Joe Fernandez is what finished her, well sort of, but she was already kind of done for close to a year before then IMO.

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I agree with basically all of this. I think that Graf from the 1992 French Open to the stabbing was playing at a pretty high level, and I think the 1992 French Open was pretty much the end of Sabatini's best stretch of tennis.

10nispro said:

Please check all the matches of Sabatini vs Graf. Sabatini never owned Graf and was winning these matches because, as I have mentioned, Graf was going through a major stress. All tennis fans are fully aware of it as her father's scandal was the top page of every newspaper and tabloid. It was for the first time, that press was finally told after a year, not to ask any personal question from Graf (and yet there were violations). Graf started losing matches from everyone. The 7/8 number you have picked up is from the same bad patch. they played two dozen matches after that across all surfaces and Graf won all of them. Also check their records before. And that 7/8 is the example I use. She was being beaten by a player she used to own 7/8 and yet against Seles, her record was only 3/5 during the same coinciding period. By the way

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Stress is part of life, professionals in every field have to perform as professionals with personal 'stress' all the time. Surgeons perform, lawyers perform. Chefs have to cook great food. Writers are expected to write well. Teachers are expected to teach effectively. True some tennis players handle stress well and others do not. Evidently your excuse is to say that Graf cannot keep her personal problems off the tennis court and concentrate on the ball, which is an odd thing to say of a champion of this caliber. Its a skill set most players learn before they reach the top ten. I am not buying it. Graf's history of consistency in performance throughout her career suggests she's figured that lesson out.

BTURNER said:

Stress is part of life, professionals in every field have to perform as professionals with personal 'stress' all the time. Surgeons perform, lawyers perform. Chefs have to cook great food. Writers are expected to write well. Teachers are expected to teach effectively. True some tennis players handle stress well and others do not. Evidently your excuse is to say that Graf cannot keep her personal problems off the tennis court and concentrate on the ball, which is an odd thing to say of a champion of this caliber. Its a skill set most players learn before they reach the top ten. I am not buying it. Graf's history of consistency in performance throughout her career suggests she's figured that lesson out.

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why didn't Seles win after she came back? Her wound was just half an inch and doctors said it would heal in max 45 days, which it did

10nispro said:

I grew up watching Navratilova, Graf, Becker, Conners, Lendl, Edberg and those were the times when access to live matches was not that easy. I remember had to plan in advance to watch all the slams at a club and later, a friends place. I started playing tennis as a young teenager in 1985 too.

I don't mean to challenge the views of anyone here, but taking the liberty to share some facts, available publicly, in chronological order as well. Please feel free to correct me in case, though I should be accurate in mentioning all the numbers and details. I think we all agree that 1990's was a different era all together and competence of Seles and Graf was as good as the best that was in any era, if not better.

Graf was inhuman and she was developed like that by her father who actually made her go into practice even after a 10 hour flight directly, with a jet lag. Her training regime was so tough that she actually hated it at times, which she mentions in her interview. Her robotic approach at times during matches, particularly while getting up from the breaks (before umpire call of "time"), frustrated many.

In 1990, a playboy model surfaced claiming to be the mother of Peter Graf's son. This scandal, slowly and gradually, escalated and devasted the entire family. All the details, including the timing are still available online. Media in those days was worst as the hunger for scandal was much greater than todays and journalists were like sharks. The family even thought of leaving Germany for good. Graf went though a rough patch and started to lose key matches, and important to mention here is Seles had not yet started her winning streak. So Seles's peak had not started yet, but all-time-low period of Graf started.

Graf's annual winning percentage declined from 98% in 1989 to 94% in 1990 and then 89% in 1991 as she lost 8 matches. Now against whom did she lose those 8 matches
-2 against Novotna
-4 to Sabatini
-1 each to Sanchez and Navratilova
I don't think she lost any match to Seles in 1991, which in fact is the year when Seles winning streak started. nothing to take any credit away from Seles, but lets not also tarnish the greatness of Graf because Graf lost mostly to other players who cleared the pathway for Seles. Yes, highly probable that had Graf won and reached finals, Seles would have defeated her, but that's why I am summarising all the numbers. Graf had a bad patch.
In 1992, Graf continued to lose, she lost a total of 7 matches
-2 to sabatini
-1 each to Lori, Novotna, Capriati, Sanches and Seles. It would be worth mentioning here that out of all these losses, the toughest one was against seles as Seles took it to 3rd set 10-8. And also important that the same year, Graf defeated Seles easily in Wimbledons final 6-2,6-1.

So Seles had won 7 slams till this time. Could Graf have won those 7 if Seles had not born?. No, because Graf lost 5 of those 7 slams even without playing Seles.

Now comes 1993, the unfortunate year in which Seles got stabbed. Graf lost AO to Seles, continued her losing streak by losing to Navratilova in February, a final to Sanchez in March and another final to Sanchez in April.

So let's put some facts upright. During those 26 months period, Graf lost to almost all her key opponents. her win-loss record against Seles was almost 50/50 surprisingly as they played 5 matches (the first one , RG 1990 was the one I mentioned Seles won before her winning times started). However, her win/loss record against Sanchez and Sabatini remained extremely poor. Guess her win/loss record against Sabatini 7 losses against just 1 win. If we were forced to chose one person who destroyed Graf during that time, it was definitely Sabatini and numbers tell us that Seles would be too down on that list. Important to highlight, her loss to Sabatini was her last loss ever to Sabatini. She played another 7 matches against Sabatini after that and won all of them.

I have tried to capture everything from my memory and the records. Happy to be stand corrected in case i may have made an error anywhere.

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I like this post and find it persuasive and I appreciate its tone. But then I ask my question. 'So what?' I still hold Graf responsible for her slump, her 'mental fragility' at the time. She chose to play because she believed she could win under those circumstances. she accepted the checks and any cars, and accolades and good press for the successes. She richely deserves the wins and has to suck up the losses because they all represented her own decisions.

And I still laud Seles, Sabatini, and Sanchez for being the kind of players who can sense and exploit any perceived mental fragility in opponents that heretofore frustrated them, , shake off any self doubts, and take full advantage. They get the full win on their record. Further, I can suppose that had Dad not had the scandal, the same propensity toward mental fragility to the same degree, will still exist, and another circumstance might induce a different slump and again, opponents will fall into categories of the kind that can take advantage, and the kind that won't and these same players will fall into the former category.

I do have to note for the record, that Graf has one of the most consistent records of any champion in majors and ranking, and that this propensity for mental fragility that you allege here, has to be comparatively insignificant or she would not have such a sterling record. So again 'so what'? the records of Graf's stand, and the records of Sabatini, Sanchez and Seles stand.

BTURNER said:

I like this post and find it persuasive and I appreciate its tone. But then I ask my question. 'So what?' I still hold Graf responsible for her slump, her 'mental fragility' at the time. She chose to play because she believed she could win under those circumstances. she accepted the checks and any cars, and accolades and good press for the successes. She richely deserves the wins and has to suck up the losses because they all represented her own decisions.

And I still laud Seles, Sabatini, and Sanchez for being the kind of players who can sense and exploit any perceived mental fragility in opponents that heretofore frustrated them, , shake off any self doubts, and take full advantage. They get the full win on their record. Further, I can suppose that had Dad not had the scandal, the same propensity toward mental fragility to the same degree, will still exist, and another circumstance might induce a different slump and again, opponents will fall into categories of the kind that can take advantage, and the kind that won't and these same players will fall into the former category.

I do have to note for the record, that Graf has one of the most consistent records of any champion in majors and ranking, and that this propensity for mental fragility that you allege here, has to be comparatively insignificant or she would not have such a sterling record. So again 'so what'? the records of Graf's stand, and the records of Sabatini, Sanchez and Seles stand.

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Well, what I have mentioned is it an excuse for her losses. I myself say that records are records and there are no what ifs. My argument is only for those who were not there in the 90s and they look at the old records and news and pass a sweeping statement that she could not have won so many had seles not been stabbed which is far from truth. what I have mentioned, is also something quite known to all the regulars who watched tennis then (and even if those who did not read the news, commentators discuss that in most of her matches)

buscemi said:

I agree with basically all of this. I think that Graf from the 1992 French Open to the stabbing was playing at a pretty high level, and I think the 1992 French Open was pretty much the end of Sabatini's best stretch of tennis.

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Which then brings us to the elephant in the room that the diehard Graf-ites are usually in denial about - the AO 93 final. In spite of Graf playing heaps better than in the 90-91 slump, Seles won the second and third sets handily. She got double breaks over Graf in both sets and Graf failed to break her even once.

If you break down the ins and outs:

(a) Seles had plenty of success on the ad serve especially going down the T because Graf tried to convert every ad return into a forehand.

(b) When Graf did take the ad return with the backhand, her tendency to now slice them (where she used to hit topspin backhand returns in '88) sometimes made them a sitting duck for Seles. The point at 1:02:30 (30-40 at 4-3 second set) is case-in-point. Graf's return is much too tame for a fairly unthreatening Seles second serve and Seles takes over the point thereafter.


(c) In long rallies, especially in the third set, Graf could not match Seles' consistency and often ended up making errors in trying to force the issue. She was also getting bothered by Seles' ability to step in and take her slices early. You can see both the things happening at 1:32:30 (40-40 at 4-2 third set, the point after which Graf gave up completely).

In short, it would appear that Seles was now starting to figure out Graf. That is why the stabbing argument comes up over and over. It doesn't matter if Seles had indeed come back in '94 (and I believe she may well have without her own father's serious health issues). In '93, after AO, Seles appeared poised to climb all over her older rival and close the gap in the slam count. She lost precious momentum when she was taken out of the game by the most horrific incident we have ever seen happen to a tennis player on court (in sharp contrast to Graf's daddy and other issues which many other players have dealt with).

I don't count out Graf. I think she would have found solutions. For one, she started hitting the forehand better as well as serving better with the Wilson. She also improved her footwork running across to the forehand corner. This was another Achilles' heel of hers that Seles exploited brilliantly in the '93 final and the numerous (and increasingly botched) lobs Graf had to come up with on the forehand side in that match bear testimony to this. She was taking too many small steps and losing precious time. Look at this point at 11:54 from the '99 match between the two. Graf lost this match because she choked badly from a commanding lead in the first set but look at how she was able to run past singles alley from the other side of the baseline and hit a DTL winner. As strange as it sounds, the younger Graf of '93 wouldn't have got there in time and likely ended up lobbing it.


Nevertheless, for all that I think these adjustments would have helped Graf make every match against Seles tough and also win some of them, especially on grass, the complexion of the rivalry would have changed had Seles dominated the tour for a third year running in '93. And their records would then look very different from the way they do now.

Dolgopolov85 said:

Which then brings us to the elephant in the room that the diehard Graf-ites are usually in denial about - the AO 93 final. In spite of Graf playing heaps better than in the 90-91 slump, Seles won the second and third sets handily. She got double breaks over Graf in both sets and Graf failed to break her even once.

If you break down the ins and outs:

(a) Seles had plenty of success on the ad serve especially going down the T because Graf tried to convert every ad return into a forehand.

(b) When Graf did take the ad return with the backhand, her tendency to now slice them (where she used to hit topspin backhand returns in '88) sometimes made them a sitting duck for Seles. The point at 1:02:30 (30-40 at 4-3 second set) is case-in-point. Graf's return is much too tame for a fairly unthreatening Seles second serve and Seles takes over the point thereafter.

(c) In long rallies, especially in the third set, Graf could not match Seles' consistency and often ended up making errors in trying to force the issue. She was also getting bothered by Seles' ability to step in and take her slices early. You can see both the things happening at 1:32:30 (40-40 at 4-2 third set, the point after which Graf gave up completely).

In short, it would appear that Seles was now starting to figure out Graf. That is why the stabbing argument comes up over and over. It doesn't matter if Seles had indeed come back in '94 (and I believe she may well have without her own father's serious health issues). In '93, after AO, Seles appeared poised to climb all over her older rival and close the gap in the slam count. She lost precious momentum when she was taken out of the game by the most horrific incident we have ever seen happen to a tennis player on court (in sharp contrast to Graf's daddy and other issues which many other players have dealt with).

I don't count out Graf. I think she would have found solutions. For one, she started hitting the forehand better as well as serving better with the Wilson. She also improved her footwork running across to the forehand corner. This was another Achilles' heel of hers that Seles exploited brilliantly in the '93 final and the numerous (and increasingly botched) lobs Graf had to come up with on the forehand side in that match bear testimony to this. She was taking too many small steps and losing precious time. Look at this point at 11:54 from the '99 match between the two. Graf lost this match because she choked badly from a commanding lead in the first set but look at how she was able to run past singles alley from the other side of the baseline and hit a DTL winner. As strange as it sounds, the younger Graf of '93 wouldn't have got there in time and likely ended up lobbing it.

Nevertheless, for all that I think these adjustments would have helped Graf make every match against Seles tough and also win some of them, especially on grass, the complexion of the rivalry would have changed had Seles dominated the tour for a third year running in '93. And their records would then look very different from the way they do now.

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there is a difference between most horrific and sadest incident. Seles stabbing was extremely sad, but calling it most horrific is just reading the headlines of the news which depicted a 9 inches knifed used to stab and only when you read the details it said it was half an inch minor wound which doctors said would heal in max 45 days.
the question is why didn’t seles return?
I would have partially agreed had seles been stabbed to the point of leaving her physically disabled to play tennis but that is not the case. So all your analysis is one sided. And I am repeating the question again and again. What happened to seles after stabbing. Her wound did not even require any constructive surgery which most tennis players go through sometimes in their career. The wound healed itself in a month

Hmm, at the top, tennis is a mental game. Being stabbed on court... that'd make that court something other than a safe space. For how long is not something anyone could predict.

10nispro said:

there is a difference between most horrific and sadest incident. Seles stabbing was extremely sad, but calling it most horrific is just reading the headlines of the news which depicted a 9 inches knifed used to stab and only when you read the details it said it was half an inch minor wound which doctors said would heal in max 45 days.
the question is why didn’t seles return?
I would have partially agreed had seles been stabbed to the point of leaving her physically disabled to play tennis but that is not the case. So all your analysis is one sided. And I am repeating the question again and again. What happened to seles after stabbing. Her wound did not even require any constructive surgery which most tennis players go through sometimes in their career. The wound healed itself in a month

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You are having to repeat yourself again and again because you're being deliberately obtuse about it. It isn't about disability but safety. Let me make a very crude analogy to get the point across though I doubt even that's going to. You're saying it doesn't matter if Gunter merely got Seles' pants down and was pulled away by the police before he could commit the deed and you would 'partially agree' if he actually rap-ed her. The simple point is in a developed nation like Germany and especially in a tournament in a major city like Hamburg, a tennis player shouldn't have had to be afraid that a deranged fan of her arch rival would assault her. The fact that Gunter could use German law to escape punishment compounded matters and in the mind of an adolescent like Seles, only aggravated the sense of the tennis world in general and in Germany in particular being cruel to her.

Right, she started "slumping" when Seles came along, and suddenly stopped slumping when Monica got stabbed...

Dolgopolov85 said:

You are having to repeat yourself again and again because you're being deliberately obtuse about it. It isn't about disability but safety. Let me make a very crude analogy to get the point across though I doubt even that's going to. You're saying it doesn't matter if Gunter merely got Seles' pants down and was pulled away by the police before he could commit the deed and you would 'partially agree' if he actually rap-ed her. The simple point is in a developed nation like Germany and especially in a tournament in a major city like Hamburg, a tennis player shouldn't have had to be afraid that a deranged fan of her arch rival would assault her. The fact that Gunter could use German law to escape punishment compounded matters and in the mind of an adolescent like Seles, only aggravated the sense of the tennis world in general and in Germany in particular being cruel to her.

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I am not getting obtuse about anything. I have said that those who were not there in 90s watching, are not in a position to understand or say anything. I have given a timeline of events along with matches showing Graf had a rough patch which started before Seles winning. Also given details of the patch. I have also asked a question as to why Seles did not return in time when the wound was just a minor wound. Nobody has answered that too? How much time was seles in the hospital including the Psychological evaluation?

10nispro said:

I am not getting obtuse about anything. I have said that those who were not there in 90s watching, are not in a position to understand or say anything. I have given a timeline of events along with matches showing Graf had a rough patch which started before Seles winning. Also given details of the patch. I have also asked a question as to why Seles did not return in time when the wound was just a minor wound. Nobody has answered that too? How much time was seles in the hospital including the Psychological evaluation?

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And why she took so long to return from injury has been explained to you. So pretending you don't know does make you obtuse. She was simply scared it would happen again to her, a problem compounded when Gunter didn't go to prison. Harping on it being a minor wound when she was assaulted from behind, ie ambushed, does make you not just obtuse but dumb.

And re the timeline, you must have achieved it through the selective cherrypicking of events that Graf diehards specialize in. Graf had won the 1990 AO and was on as relentless a winning streak as ever when she met Seles in the Berlin final and lost. And then she lost in the RG final to Seles even though she hadn't dropped a set en route. Somehow all the blackmail paparazzi stuff didn't bother her against the others, only against Seles, huh! There is a pretty good case to be made that those losses caused a crisis of confidence in her and hence why she slumped through 1991. In 92, she wasn't slumping anymore nor in 93. Though, again, post her loss to Seles at AO, the indecision and diffidence of the early 90s seemed to return as she lost to ASV at Key Biscayne. But with Seles out of the way, the rest of the field being mediocre helped her back into form as she won matches she should have lost, as against Novotna at Wimbledon.

Dolgopolov85 said:

And why she took so long to return from injury has been explained to you. So pretending you don't know does make you obtuse. She was simply scared it would happen again to her, a problem compounded when Gunter didn't go to prison. Harping on it being a minor wound when she was assaulted from behind, ie ambushed, does make you not just obtuse but dumb.

And re the timeline, you must have achieved it through the selective cherrypicking of events that Graf diehards specialize in. Graf had won the 1990 AO and was on as relentless a winning streak as ever when she met Seles in the Berlin final and lost. And then she lost in the RG final to Seles even though she hadn't dropped a set en route. Somehow all the blackmail paparazzi stuff didn't bother her against the others, only against Seles, huh! There is a pretty good case to be made that those losses caused a crisis of confidence in her and hence why she slumped through 1991. In 92, she wasn't slumping anymore nor in 93. Though, again, post her loss to Seles at AO, the indecision and diffidence of the early 90s seemed to return as she lost to ASV at Key Biscayne. But with Seles out of the way, the rest of the field being mediocre helped her back into form as she won matches she should have lost, as against Novotna at Wimbledon.

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Nothing makes me obtuse only because you are ignorant of all the facts. A very kind senior member inboxed me yesterday and suggested I can, if i want to, make use of the "link" option here instead of writing everything again. I have taken his advice, so very briefly, I am summarising a sequence of events, not for the members who are fans of another player and just passing sweeping statements after googling, but only for new members who are young and interested in tennis and also engage in objective discussions on the greatest ever tennis players. So here it is. The timelines starts at quart 1, 1990:-
-Graf had some personal issues, her father's scandal which was sensationalised. (Evidence of this is available if you google in the news. as well as if you will any of her matches, the commentators would mention this in detail. Even in some of the press conferences the reporters bugged Graf, but as the issue escalated, reporters were forbidden to discuss any personal issue with Graf)
-She started losing matches well before Seles started winning (Evidence of this is also available in Tennis abstract matches)
-Seles, while Steffi was losing matches, started winning. Her peak had not started while Graf's was already on the decline. During this period of 25 months, Graf lost many matches, mostly to players she had historically been defeating. Her win loss record against Sabatni during this time was I think 8-2 (sabatini winning 8). Graf hardly played any finals against Seles as she got defeated earlier and Seles won by defeating the other players. Her win loss record against Seles during this time was relatively even 3-2 (Seles winning 3). Evidence along with dates of all the matches is also available in tennis abstract.
-Once her personal issue was over, Graf won all her future matches against Sabatini, while Seles disappeared. Important to mention, she won the wimbledon final against Seles in 1991, and if you listen to that commentary, the commentators at the start of the match, would also be discussing that her fathers issue seemed to be finally over.
-Now, the elephant in the room, and what I have been asking in the chains above, Why didn't Seles return? Nobody has answered, and since people who are arguing with me have nothing to do with Seles. All they want is to make another player look great, so they want to steal the glory away from Graf. So obviously they don't know the answer to this question because you just can't find everything in google. One needs to have some background in order to google properly or else Siri can do a better job than any of us. Coming back to the discussion, Seles's wound was a minor wound. Doctors confirmed that none of her nerves was damaged and all they did was to stitch it up. Her total stay at the hospital was for only 36 hours, including the Pysch evaluation. They confirmed that she would be fit to play within a month to 45 days max. While the incident was a sad one, it was actually funny (that we learned only later once doctors confirmed) to watch the headlines of the news those days as they dramatised it totally ; "the attacker used a 9 inches dagger and if it would have been slightly down, it would have punctured her lungs". And under the same headline, they mention the doctors advise as well that it was near the shoulder and just needed normal stitches and she should be up in 45 days.
-Where did she disappear then? this is the question I have been asking and since focus of debaters here is different they don't know this or don't want to discuss about it. A week after the attack, while Seles was recovering, her father was diagnosed with a prostrate cancer. Seles, in her own words in 1998, says that that was the most shocking news of her life, that gave her too much stress. By december the same year, something malignant was found in his stomach too which was terminal. At her father's Eulogy, quite later, she mentioned that she was very close with her father and it just the thought of losing him when she learned that it was cancer, took everything away from her.
-So I come back to the point, her wound was a minor wound. It did not have any long term physical or psychological issues. She went through a personal issue, which was to happen regardless of stabbing.
-It's also important to mention here that Seles had a lot of other controversies which quickly disappeared due to the sympathy. And one relevant thing is the disclosure issue. She did not play wimbledon a year earlier and withdrew just days before. Surprisingly, before she withdrew, there was a rumour that she will skip wimbledon (for some technical reason pertaining to ranking), and when she finally did, there was a lot of controversy. She initially informed that she had a personal accident but when she was fined, she also had to skip the federation cup saying she had a stress fracture (and then later Shin splinters). As federation cup was a pre-requisite for Olympics so she had to provide a medical certificate in order to be eligible for Olympics. Meanwhile, she played an exhibition match in USA (just a day before Federation cup). Her medical certificate was reviewed and ITF was not satisfied so she was banned from playing the Olympics. Jennifer Capriati won that gold (a part of the trend/evidence as I mentioned that Graf was already losing to many).

So, if we go ahead with ifs and buts, the first if should be "Had Steffi not gone through that stressfull period, Seles would have needed at least another year and a half or so to climb up the level to give a good competition"
Second if would be, "had she not been stabbed, Steffi could not have gotten her world number 1 ranking for another few weeks, may be" But then, Seles father got cancer so she would have been under stress, the same scenario which actually occurred.

But there are no ifs and buts in tennis. Court has phenomenal achievements in her career, more than any player. and gladly, even with all the conspiracy theories, she achieved her Grand slam in the open era (though open era in women did not add much of a difference), and she even came back after giving birth and won a slam. It's just sad that some favourite players could never do that but that doesn't mean that one belittle the achievements of Court. Graf completed most of her significant achievements including golden slam and calendar slam before the stabbing. And again, it's sad that 'some' favourite player could never do that in twice as many years as Graf played. That doesn't mean using a sympathy card against Graf to take away her achievements.

In tennis, what has happened, it's happened. GOATs are determined by accomplishment, not by ifs and buts.

10nispro said:

-She started losing matches well before Seles started winning (Evidence of this is also available in Tennis abstract matches)

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I looked at Tennis Abstract to confirm I wasn't crazy. Graf was on a 66 match winning streak before Seles beat her in the 1990 Berlin final. Graf then steamrolled through six straight set wins at the French Open before Seles beat her again in the final. Only then did Graf start losing to other players.

Meanwhile, that Berlin final was Seles's 25th straight win, and the French Open was Seles's 32nd straight win.

buscemi said:

I looked at Tennis Abstract to confirm I wasn't crazy. Graf was on a 66 match winning streak before Seles beat her in the 1990 Berlin final. Graf then steamrolled through six straight set wins at the French Open before Seles beat her again in the final. Only then did Graf start losing to other players.

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It was April 1990 was the month Graf's father issue was surfaced in the news paper, though it was going on before that. So she started losing. Seles lost matches to ordinary players even after winning from Graf. She lost of Zina Garrison, unseeded Linda, Amy Frazier. And before she defeated Graf, she also lost to unseeded Rosalyn, Martina and Laura Arraya. Graf lost more matches against other players than against Seles.

10nispro said:

It was April 1990 was the month Graf's father issue was surfaced in the news paper, though it was going on before that. So she started losing. Seles lost matches to ordinary players even after winning from Graf. She lost of Zina Garrison, unseeded Linda, Amy Frazier. And before she defeated Graf, she also lost to unseeded Rosalyn, Martina and Laura Arraya. Graf lost more matches against other players than against Seles.

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I'm not sure how any of this helps your argument. Sure, 16 year-old Seles was still prone to upsets in 1990. No one would dispute that. Despite that, she was still clearly on the rise in early 1990, before her two wins over Graf, having won 24 straight matches before winning their Berlin final and 31 straight matches before their French Open final. The fact that Seles was still struggling against some lesser players but able to take Graf down in back-to-back tournaments, including a Major (final), speaks volumes about her.

And sure, Graf was having off-the-court issues in 1990. Still, despite those off-the-court issues, she continued her winning streak from 1989, with that streak reaching 66 before the loss in the Berlin final to Seles. As a result, we can't really say whether it was the off-the-court issues or Seles that caused Graf's results to take a turn from the worse. In all likelihood, it was some combination of the two.

buscemi said:

I'm not sure how any of this helps your argument. Sure, 16 year-old Seles was still prone to upsets in 1990. No one would dispute that. Despite that, she was still clearly on the rise in early 1990, before her two wins over Graf, having won 24 straight matches before winning their Berlin final and 31 straight matches before their French Open final. The fact that Seles was still struggling against some lesser players but able to take Graf down in back-to-back tournaments, including a Major (final), speaks volumes about her.

And sure, Graf was having off-the-court issues in 1990. Still, despite those off-the-court issues, she continued her winning streak from 1989, with that streak reaching 66 before the loss in the Berlin final to Seles. As a result, we can't really say whether it was the off-the-court issues or Seles that caused Graf's results to take a turn from the worse. In all likelihood, it was some combination of the two.

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I don’t think you are reading correctly, probably uou don’t want to. And frankly, I mentioned, that my above explanation is for those who want to understand. For you my friend, achievements of all players are there in the record. No matter, how much you try to take away from Court, Graf, and Martina will be in the top 3 by any metrics. cheers

buscemi said:

I'm not sure how any of this helps your argument. Sure, 16 year-old Seles was still prone to upsets in 1990. No one would dispute that. Despite that, she was still clearly on the rise in early 1990, before her two wins over Graf, having won 24 straight matches before winning their Berlin final and 31 straight matches before their French Open final. The fact that Seles was still struggling against some lesser players but able to take Graf down in back-to-back tournaments, including a Major (final), speaks volumes about her.

And sure, Graf was having off-the-court issues in 1990. Still, despite those off-the-court issues, she continued her winning streak from 1989, with that streak reaching 66 before the loss in the Berlin final to Seles. As a result, we can't really say whether it was the off-the-court issues or Seles that caused Graf's results to take a turn from the worse. In all likelihood, it was some combination of the two.

Click to expand...

Didn't you hear him? "You're not reading correctly". Oh and "probably you don't want to". The temerity to claim THAT! Not many forum participants here have needed the mirror as badly as @10nispro.

10nispro said:

Nothing makes me obtuse only because you are ignorant of all the facts. A very kind senior member inboxed me yesterday and suggested I can, if i want to, make use of the "link" option here instead of writing everything again. I have taken his advice, so very briefly, I am summarising a sequence of events, not for the members who are fans of another player and just passing sweeping statements after googling, but only for new members who are young and interested in tennis and also engage in objective discussions on the greatest ever tennis players. So here it is. The timelines starts at quart 1, 1990:-
-Graf had some personal issues, her father's scandal which was sensationalised. (Evidence of this is available if you google in the news. as well as if you will any of her matches, the commentators would mention this in detail. Even in some of the press conferences the reporters bugged Graf, but as the issue escalated, reporters were forbidden to discuss any personal issue with Graf)
-She started losing matches well before Seles started winning (Evidence of this is also available in Tennis abstract matches)
-Seles, while Steffi was losing matches, started winning. Her peak had not started while Graf's was already on the decline. During this period of 25 months, Graf lost many matches, mostly to players she had historically been defeating. Her win loss record against Sabatni during this time was I think 8-2 (sabatini winning 8). Graf hardly played any finals against Seles as she got defeated earlier and Seles won by defeating the other players. Her win loss record against Seles during this time was relatively even 3-2 (Seles winning 3). Evidence along with dates of all the matches is also available in tennis abstract.
-Once her personal issue was over, Graf won all her future matches against Sabatini, while Seles disappeared. Important to mention, she won the wimbledon final against Seles in 1991, and if you listen to that commentary, the commentators at the start of the match, would also be discussing that her fathers issue seemed to be finally over.
-Now, the elephant in the room, and what I have been asking in the chains above, Why didn't Seles return? Nobody has answered, and since people who are arguing with me have nothing to do with Seles. All they want is to make another player look great, so they want to steal the glory away from Graf. So obviously they don't know the answer to this question because you just can't find everything in google. One needs to have some background in order to google properly or else Siri can do a better job than any of us. Coming back to the discussion, Seles's wound was a minor wound. Doctors confirmed that none of her nerves was damaged and all they did was to stitch it up. Her total stay at the hospital was for only 36 hours, including the Pysch evaluation. They confirmed that she would be fit to play within a month to 45 days max. While the incident was a sad one, it was actually funny (that we learned only later once doctors confirmed) to watch the headlines of the news those days as they dramatised it totally ; "the attacker used a 9 inches dagger and if it would have been slightly down, it would have punctured her lungs". And under the same headline, they mention the doctors advise as well that it was near the shoulder and just needed normal stitches and she should be up in 45 days.
-Where did she disappear then? this is the question I have been asking and since focus of debaters here is different they don't know this or don't want to discuss about it. A week after the attack, while Seles was recovering, her father was diagnosed with a prostrate cancer. Seles, in her own words in 1998, says that that was the most shocking news of her life, that gave her too much stress. By december the same year, something malignant was found in his stomach too which was terminal. At her father's Eulogy, quite later, she mentioned that she was very close with her father and it just the thought of losing him when she learned that it was cancer, took everything away from her.
-So I come back to the point, her wound was a minor wound. It did not have any long term physical or psychological issues. She went through a personal issue, which was to happen regardless of stabbing.
-It's also important to mention here that Seles had a lot of other controversies which quickly disappeared due to the sympathy. And one relevant thing is the disclosure issue. She did not play wimbledon a year earlier and withdrew just days before. Surprisingly, before she withdrew, there was a rumour that she will skip wimbledon (for some technical reason pertaining to ranking), and when she finally did, there was a lot of controversy. She initially informed that she had a personal accident but when she was fined, she also had to skip the federation cup saying she had a stress fracture (and then later Shin splinters). As federation cup was a pre-requisite for Olympics so she had to provide a medical certificate in order to be eligible for Olympics. Meanwhile, she played an exhibition match in USA (just a day before Federation cup). Her medical certificate was reviewed and ITF was not satisfied so she was banned from playing the Olympics. Jennifer Capriati won that gold (a part of the trend/evidence as I mentioned that Graf was already losing to many).

So, if we go ahead with ifs and buts, the first if should be "Had Steffi not gone through that stressfull period, Seles would have needed at least another year and a half or so to climb up the level to give a good competition"
Second if would be, "had she not been stabbed, Steffi could not have gotten her world number 1 ranking for another few weeks, may be" But then, Seles father got cancer so she would have been under stress, the same scenario which actually occurred.

But there are no ifs and buts in tennis. Court has phenomenal achievements in her career, more than any player. and gladly, even with all the conspiracy theories, she achieved her Grand slam in the open era (though open era in women did not add much of a difference), and she even came back after giving birth and won a slam. It's just sad that some favourite players could never do that but that doesn't mean that one belittle the achievements of Court. Graf completed most of her significant achievements including golden slam and calendar slam before the stabbing. And again, it's sad that 'some' favourite player could never do that in twice as many years as Graf played. That doesn't mean using a sympathy card against Graf to take away her achievements.

In tennis, what has happened, it's happened. GOATs are determined by accomplishment, not by ifs and buts.

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buscemi already pointed out that in fact Graf was on a winning streak right before Berlin 1990. In fact, she hadn't lost a single match in 1990 before that match and hadn't dropped a set in that tournament. It's all here:


So you're wrong, completely wrong about your beloved player. And since you refuse obdurately to even get past that single point, it is pointless debating the rest with you. Even when the facts are literally flung in your face, you shuffle about and vociferously deny them. Your opinions then fare even worse.

Dolgopolov85 said:

buscemi already pointed out that in fact Graf was on a winning streak right before Berlin 1990. In fact, she hadn't lost a single match in 1990 before that match and hadn't dropped a set in that tournament. It's all here:

Tennis Abstract: Steffi Graf WTA Match Results, Splits, and Analysis

So you're wrong, completely wrong about your beloved player. And since you refuse obdurately to even get past that single point, it is pointless debating the rest with you. Even when the facts are literally flung in your face, you shuffle about and vociferously deny them. Your opinions then fare even worse.

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Ok so, I am also wrong when I say that Margaret Court has 24 slams, she also has a grand slam and also highest WTA titles as well as the highest winning percentage in slams. Steffi Graf remained number one for most weeks, most year end number 1, grand slam, golden slam, highest consecutive finals among these top 5 players, highest minimum titles per slam and 10 consecutive years with at least one slam win. Navratilova has a winning streak of 74 matches and 13 tournaments. All great players are my beloved players.
And here is not the end. Many players have an all time meaningful record including Henin, Hingis, Evert.I think even Capriati has one.
I don't think your favourite player is listed because she actually has none. That doesn't mean you start stealing credit away from others.

You can continue with your ifs and buts friend. I would only respond if you can show some meaningful achievement of your beloved player. Thanks and Cheers

10nispro said:

Ok so, I am also wrong when I say that Margaret Court has 24 slams, she also has a grand slam and also highest WTA titles as well as the highest winning percentage in slams. Steffi Graf remained number one for most weeks, most year end number 1, grand slam, golden slam, highest consecutive finals among these top 5 players, highest minimum titles per slam and 10 consecutive years with at least one slam win. Navratilova has a winning streak of 74 matches and 13 tournaments.

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Look, all that's true about Court and Navratilova. What's also true is that Court had her amazing run starting in 1969, turning the tables on Billie Jean King after her great 1968. And Navratilova took the WTA crown back from Evert after she regained it from 1980-1981.

Meanwhile, Seles had those wins over Graf at age 16 and took her WTA crown at age 17. Unlike with Court and Navratilova, however, Graf never took her WTA crown back from her rival. Instead, it was given to her when Seles was stabbed by a lunatic. It's too bad that Seles never got to prove whether she could keep her crown and that Graf never got to prove she could take it back.

buscemi said:

Look, all that's true about Court and Navratilova. What's also true is that Court had her amazing run starting in 1969, turning the tables on Billie Jean King after her great 1968. And Navratilova took the WTA crown back from Evert after she regained it from 1980-1981.

Meanwhile, Seles had those wins over Graf at age 16 and took her WTA crown at age 17. Unlike with Court and Navratilova, however, Graf never took her WTA crown back from her rival. Instead, it was given to her when Seles was stabbed by a lunatic. It's too bad that Seles never got to prove whether she could keep her crown and that Graf never got to prove she could take it back.

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It's too bad you are not willing to open your eyes my friend because Graf proved what she had to prove. In fact, Graf's accomplishment in just one year 1988 were phenomenal. Grow up

10nispro said:

It's too bad you are not willing to open your eyes my friend because Graf proved what she had to prove. In fact, Graf's accomplishment in just one year 1988 were phenomenal. Grow up

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Graf's 1988 was phenomenal. Full stop.

Graf from the 1993 French Open to the 1994 Australian Open was also phenomenal. I just wish we would have gotten to see her match up with Seles at some or all of those Majors.

buscemi said:

Graf's 1988 was phenomenal. Full stop.

Graf from the 1993 French Open to the 1994 Australian Open was also phenomenal. I just wish we would have gotten to see her match up with Seles at some or all of those Majors.

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That's your wish and that way, there can be a lot of wishes, like wish Court and Hingis could play at their peak, and it's your way of looking at it. I don't know whether you went to see their live match at anytime or not?
And they played more matches as well. If Seles was not able to overcome her mental grief/stress, she cannot be the greatest player

10nispro said:

Ok so, I am also wrong when I say that Margaret Court has 24 slams, she also has a grand slam and also highest WTA titles as well as the highest winning percentage in slams. Steffi Graf remained number one for most weeks, most year end number 1, grand slam, golden slam, highest consecutive finals among these top 5 players, highest minimum titles per slam and 10 consecutive years with at least one slam win. Navratilova has a winning streak of 74 matches and 13 tournaments. All great players are my beloved players.
And here is not the end. Many players have an all time meaningful record including Henin, Hingis, Evert.I think even Capriati has one.
I don't think your favourite player is listed because she actually has none. That doesn't mean you start stealing credit away from others.

You can continue with your ifs and buts friend. I would only respond if you can show some meaningful achievement of your beloved player. Thanks and Cheers

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Wow, talk about a gigantic deflection. Whoever said anything about Court? You still won't admit, never will, the basic fact that Graf didn't lose a single match in 1990 until she played Seles at Berlin. And FYI I used to like Graf more in the 90s. But that's because I hadn't met deranged fans like you.

Dolgopolov85 said:

You still won't admit, never will, the basic fact that Graf didn't lose a single match in 1990 until she played Seles at Berlin.

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Where I have said I haven't agreed? Was that the point from where Seles started to win? She lost matches to ordinary players after that and her winning streak did not start then.

Dolgopolov85 said:

And FYI I used to like Graf more in the 90s. But that's because I hadn't met deranged fans like you.

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I am not a fan of Graf by the way. I am a fan of tennis and great players. But it's good to know you don't like Graf anymore.
I am sure it would hurt to see so many achievements tagged to her, and none with your favourite player