Stronger year: 2013 vs. 2014?

2013 or 2014?

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    51
Third Serve

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
This should actually be an interesting one. These were both solid years, in my view.

The general consensus on this forum has favored 2013. 2014 has historically been lumped in with 2015 and 2016, often to make the point that the whole 2014-2016 period was pretty weak. But I actually think that 2013 has been overrated a little and 2014 underrated a bit. I find them to be pretty close, each having its own advantages and disadvantages. I'm inclined to think the top 2 was stronger in 2013 but the rest of the field was better in 2014.

Here are 2013's advantages, in my opinion:
- 2013 Nadal was certainly the best player from both years.
- 2013 Djokovic was a better #2 than 2014 Federer, and about as good as his 2014 self.
- Murray was much better than in 2014.

Here are 2014's advantages, in my opinion:
- Stan and Cilic stepped it up a lot in 2014, posing legitimate challenges to the Big 3 at 3/4 of the Slams.
- Federer was much better than in 2013.
- Dimitrov, Nishikori, and even Raonic from the lost gen made significant improvements, threatening and even, on a couple of occasions, beating the Big 3 in big matches.
 
F

fedfan24

Hall of Fame
2013 advantage was 2 prime atg’s, a strong murray and wawrinka but a poor federer after the ao

2014 kinda fell apart post rg. you had an old federer doing well in bo3 and some decent nextgen showings. djokovic being subpar for some tournaments levelled the playing field a bit.
 
Federev

Federev

Legend
2014 cause 3 of the big 3 were healthy. And what you cited about Stanislaw and Marin.

In 2013 Fed was a walking back brace.

Now 2012 … that was a great year. Big 4 each took a slam.
 
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
Does 2015 have arguments over 2013 and 2014 ?

Sure I have seen this as a point somewhere in a debate.
 
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F

fedfan24

Hall of Fame
RS said:
Does 2015 have arguments over 2013 and 2014 ?
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biggest mark against 2015 is djokovic in peak form having no meaningful rivals at 3/4 slams. old slow fed or murray playing 2 decent sets is as good as it gets .
 
The Blond Blur

The Blond Blur

G.O.A.T.
Really don’t see how this is close tbh.

2013 Joker was insane at the AO. The 4R match with Stan was better than than the 2014 QF by a good margin. He then went through Berdych, had arguably his most dominant schlem win vs Ferrer, and then beat the best version of MurrayGOAT in the F. I still think Stan wins the 2014 F, but RAFA’s injury took most of the air out of the match.

2013 RG had the Nadavic SF which was better than the 2014 F. And the 4R Stanimal vs Gasquet match was even better than that.

2014 Wimby was better than 2013 as far as match quality goes. Most of the top seeded players got knocked out in the early rounds. The Delpo vs Joker SF was a war. 2013 also has a narrative charm to it since MurrayGOAT ended the 77 UK schlem winner drought, but I’ll still give 2014 the nod.

RAFA’s summer schlem in 2013 was better level wise and storyline wise than anything in 2014 imo. Stan and Joker had another solid (though obviously lower level match compared to the AO showdown) in the SF. The 2013 2-1 Open F was very error prone from Joker, but RAFA did well to force Joker to go for too much throughout the match. It wasn’t the highest quality, but it was better than watching Glasshikori who’s 2-5000 against top 10 opponents get clobbered by Chili.

The 2013 YEC actually had a F and and it was played between the top 2 players in the world. The 2014 F ended in a walkover.

I think 2014 was stronger than 2015 and especially 2016, but it was the biggest false dawn in modern tennis. So many promising showings for the #LostGen only for all of them to take a massive step backwards in 2015. 2016 had all of the Big 3 either out or struggling post RG.
 
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jl809

jl809

Hall of Fame
2013 just about. I know Fed was muggy but he had his moments, it wasn’t a Nadal 2015 situation. Murray and Nadal killed 2014 imo
 
The Guru

The Guru

Legend
2013 has the edge here for me. As far as the slams go I think only Wimbledon was stronger in 14 and unlike TS I don't put 14 Stan over 13 Stan in any meaningful way. I actually think 15>14 and I agree with TS that the 13 cutoff is a little arbitrary. 11-12 and 13-15 are more natural to lump with eachother imo. Or just lump 11-15 all together as there's much more pronounced drop from 15 to the years that followed than 13 or 14 to 15.
 
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
The Guru said:
2013 has the edge here for me. As far as the slams go I think only Wimbledon was stronger in 14 and unlike TS I don't put 14 Stan over 13 Stan in any meaningful way. I actually think 15>14 and I agree with TS that the 13 cutoff is a little arbitrary. 11-12 and 13-15 are more natural to lump with eachother imo. Or just lump 11-15 all together as there's much more pronounced drop from 15 to the years that followed than 13 or 14 to 15.
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2013 vs 2015 at each slam?
 
Third Serve

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
Here's a little Slam comparison:

AO: 2013 gets this by a small but clear margin. Djokovic was a stronger winner than Stan, but the levels of the draws they faced is about even.
- Djokovic went through one of the greatest matches of all time with Stan in the 2013 4R, certainly better than anything in 2014. After that was an okay QF performance from Berdych and a bad SF from Ferrer (Djokovic was spectacular in that match, of course, but Ferrer in that one was comparable to AO 2007 Roddick). Then a good final with Murray. One of the all-time toughest Slam draws anyone has successfully navigated.
- Wawrinka went through a great match with Djokovic in the QF (though a couple steps down from their 2013 encounter), then another great and very underrated SF with Berdych, and an eh final from injured Nadal. Another very tough draw but the edge also goes to 2013 here.

RG: 2013 wins because of the famous semifinal, but 2014 wasn't too bad either. Winner's level was pretty similar across both events. Comparing the two Djokovic-Nadal matches, I think Nadal was better in 2014 but Djokovic was clearly better in 2013 by a margin that outweighs Nadal's improvements in 2014. It's also worth noting the 2014 QF where Ferrer played probably his only good Slam match against a prime Big 3 member, nearly going up 2-0 on Nadal. He fizzled out after that but those first two sets were nice.

W: 2014 wins by a massive margin even if we account for the famous Djokovic-Delpo semifinal in 2013. The sheer depth of the field is matched by few other Slams. The final is good enough, but there’s also the Dimitrov-Djokovic SF which was very good, as well as matches like Cilic-Djokovic and Federer-Wawrinka which had their moments. The 2013 tournament was very forgettable in terms of quality aside from that one match.

US Open: This is a tricky one to compare because Nadal definitely had the tougher road to the title than Cilic (as much deserved hate as Djokovic gets for his performance in the final, he at least got into a position in the match where he could start choking). However, the overall depth of the field was a bit better in 2014. Nishikori had a great run to the final, getting through Raonic and Wawrinka in five-setters and Djokovic in four. Novak wasn’t good at all but I was impressed by Nishikori’s performance. And of course Cilic was very good in the final few rounds. Lastly it’s worth noting that Stan put up a good fight against Djokovic in the 2013 semi, so 2014 doesn’t quite clean sweep depth of the field. I’d give this to 2013 barely.
 
S

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
Third Serve said:
Here's a little Slam comparison:

AO: 2013 gets this by a small but clear margin. Djokovic was a stronger winner than Stan, but the levels of the draws they faced is about even.
- Djokovic went through one of the greatest matches of all time with Stan in the 2013 4R, certainly better than anything in 2014. After that was an okay QF performance from Berdych and a bad SF from Ferrer (Djokovic was spectacular in that match, of course, but Ferrer in that one was comparable to AO 2007 Roddick). Then a good final with Murray. One of the all-time toughest Slam draws anyone has successfully navigated.
- Wawrinka went through a great match with Djokovic in the QF (though a couple steps down from their 2013 encounter), then another great and very underrated SF with Berdych, and an eh final from injured Nadal. Another very tough draw but the edge also goes to 2013 here.

RG: 2013 wins because of the famous semifinal, but 2014 wasn't too bad either. Winner's level was pretty similar across both events. Comparing the two Djokovic-Nadal matches, I think Nadal was better in 2014 but Djokovic was clearly better in 2013 by a margin that outweighs Nadal's improvements in 2014. It's also worth noting the 2014 QF where Ferrer played probably his only good Slam match against a prime Big 3 member, nearly going up 2-0 on Nadal. He fizzled out after that but those first two sets were nice.

W: 2014 wins by a massive margin even if we account for the famous Djokovic-Delpo semifinal in 2013. The sheer depth of the field is matched by few other Slams. The final is good enough, but there’s also the Dimitrov-Djokovic SF which was very good, as well as matches like Cilic-Djokovic and Federer-Wawrinka which had their moments. The 2013 tournament was very forgettable in terms of quality aside from that one match.

US Open: This is a tricky one to compare because Nadal definitely had the tougher road to the title than Cilic (as much deserved hate as Djokovic gets for his performance in the final, he at least got into a position in the match where he could start choking). However, the overall depth of the field was a bit better in 2014. Nishikori had a great run to the final, getting through Raonic and Wawrinka in five-setters and Djokovic in four. Novak wasn’t good at all but I was impressed by Nishikori’s performance. And of course Cilic was very good in the final few rounds. Lastly it’s worth noting that Stan put up a good fight against Djokovic in the 2013 semi, so 2014 doesn’t quite clean sweep depth of the field. I’d give this to 2013 barely.
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Wat8.jpg
 
The_Order

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
Not even close...

2013 saw Nadal and Djoker both rack up 20+ top 10 wins. Del Potro was a force in some important events. Stan had his break out year, was robbed the AO13 4r v Djok, pushed him to the limit at the US Open as well. Murray at Wimbledon... the only downside was Fed's poor year.
 
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
You could make a case Murray Wim 13 outside the one match and Djokovic Wim 13 pre F best Fed and alleged mentally shot Djokovic Wim 14 and then Del Potro was better than anybody else in the remaining draw.
 
The_Order

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
RS said:
You could make a case Murray Wim 13 outside the one match and Djokovic Wim 13 pre F best Fed and alleged mentally shot Djokovic Wim 14 and then Del Potro was better than anybody else in the remaining draw.
Click to expand...

So, OP is completely off the boil then? Would you make a case for any slam in 2014 to be > 2013?
 
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S

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
The Blond Blur said:
Really don’t see how this is close tbh.

2013 Joker was insane at the AO. The 4R match with Stan was better than than the 2014 QF by a good margin. He then went through Berdych, had arguably his most dominant schlem win vs Ferrer, and then beat the best version of MurrayGOAT in the F. I still think Stan wins the 2014 F, but RAFA’s injury took most of the air out of the match.

2013 RG had the Nadavic SF which was better than the 2014 F. And the 4R Stanimal vs Gasquet match was even better than that.

2014 Wimby was better than 2013 as far as match quality goes. Most of the top seeded players got knocked out in the early rounds. The Delpo vs Joker SF was a war. 2013 also has a narrative charm to it since MurrayGOAT ended the 77 UK schlem winner drought, but I’ll still give 2014 the nod.

RAFA’s summer schlem in 2013 was better level wise and storyline wise than anything in 2014 imo. Stan and Joker had another solid (though obviously lower level match compared to the AO showdown) in the SF. The 2013 2-1 Open F was very error prone from Joker, but RAFA did well to force Joker to go for too much throughout the match. It wasn’t the highest quality, but it was better than watching Glasshikori who’s 2-5000 against top 10 opponents get clobbered by Chili.

The 2013 YEC actually had a F and and it was played between the top 2 players in the world. The 2014 F ended in a walkover.

I think 2014 was stronger than 2015 and especially 2016, but it was the biggest false dawn in modern tennis. So many promising showings for the #LostGen only for all of them to take a massive step backwards in 2015. 2016 had all of the Big 3 either out or struggling post RG.
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Yeah, by the way, that wasn't discussed much. In 2014 it was actually one of the weakest WTF ever, even 2017 arguably was a bit better. Even forget about the final. This is supposed to be a tournament of the 8 best players in the world, and one would expect it to be a battle. But in 2014 we had lots of 6-1 6-1 or 6-0 6-1 or 6-3 6-0 or 6-2 6-2 matches, and what's even worse, these so called "top players" were EXPECTED to lose by that scoreline. The only decent match was the Federer-Wawrinka semifinal, and it wasn't great by any means. Ended with a big choke.

So yeah, this pretty much sums it up. 2014 was really the beginning of the weak era.
 
ADuck

ADuck

Legend
Third Serve said:
Look at how beautiful his FH was in the 2014 final. That was only the case in the final set of 2013.
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I think the highlights are a bit misleading, as his forehand looks amazing there, but he also made far more unforced errors which obviously aren't shown. When was the last time you watched both matches in full?
 
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
The_Order said:
So, OP is completely off the boil then? Would you make a case for any slam in 2014 to be > 2013?
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I preferred WI 14 because of the final being one of the better finals but I actually think what I said may be true and cuts down the gap :p
 
F

fedfan24

Hall of Fame
Sampras-Bruguera 1993 said:
2014 began the death of the ATP tour permanently. It hasn't recovered since and most likely never will.
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2017 was a fun fedal nostalgia trip. 2018 was a nice renaissance for djokovic then 2019 had the last big 3 battles. 2020 onward has been tragic though. djokovic mopping up the pathetic tour and watching nextgens choke time and time again
 
S

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
ADuck said:
I think the highlights are a bit misleading, as his forehand looks amazing there, but he also made far more unforced errors which obviously aren't shown. When was the last time you watched both matches in full?
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Actually, some of them are even shown. Like the point at 5:00. Should have added the first break point in that game as well, he made a very similar forehand shank.

 
Third Serve

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
ADuck said:
I think the highlights are a bit misleading, as his forehand looks amazing there, but he also made far more unforced errors which obviously aren't shown. When was the last time you watched both matches in full?
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He made more winners than UFEs on that wing (also true in the 2013 semi) which is quite good for a clay court match. Also forced plenty of errors out of Djokovic.

I haven’t seen the full 2014 match in a long time but I remember being simultaneously impressed with Nadal and disappointed by Djokovic. I’ve seen the 2013 match more recently and my opinion on that one has gone down slightly. Nadal was very good, still, but Djokovic was a lot more inconsistent than I remembered, despite select intervals of very strong play from him.
 
ADuck

ADuck

Legend
Third Serve said:
He made more winners than UFEs on that wing (also true in the 2013 semi) which is quite good for a clay court match. Also forced plenty of errors out of Djokovic.

I haven’t seen the full 2014 match in a long time but I remember being simultaneously impressed with Nadal and disappointed by Djokovic. I’ve seen the 2013 match more recently and my opinion on that one has gone down slightly. Nadal was very good, still, but Djokovic was a lot more inconsistent than I remembered, despite select intervals of very strong play from him.
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One weird thing about Nadal's 2013 clay season is his 2nd serve return points won % is the lowest of his entire career (worse than even 2015/2016).
 
dapchai

dapchai

Legend
2013 was the best year because the GOAT clinched the Wimbledon Championships title in the most decisive way. That win was enough to close the case.
 
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
dapchai said:
2013 was the best year because the GOAT clinched the Wimbledon Championships title in the most decisive way. That win was enough to close the case.
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Murray is considered to have been better in Wimbledon 2012 than 2013? What does it tell us?
 
mike danny

mike danny

Bionic Poster
The Guru said:
2013 has the edge here for me. As far as the slams go I think only Wimbledon was stronger in 14 and unlike TS I don't put 14 Stan over 13 Stan in any meaningful way. I actually think 15>14 and I agree with TS that the 13 cutoff is a little arbitrary. 11-12 and 13-15 are more natural to lump with eachother imo. Or just lump 11-15 all together as there's much more pronounced drop from 15 to the years that followed than 13 or 14 to 15.
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You do make a valid point, but 2014 and 2015, IMO, were visibly weaker than 2011-2013. I definitely wouldn't lump 2015 with years like 2011 and 2012 at all.
 
S

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
mike danny said:
One thing that jumps to me is how in the hell did Djokovic not win more than 1 slam in those years?
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Because winning slams was much tougher back then. People are used to him winning a lot of slams now in the asterisk era. Back then there was a pretty strong Nadal in RG (which is not the case anymore), prime Nadal in USO, prime Murray on grass, Wawrinka was a challenge. There were different players who could fight for titles, and it makes sense that different players won. Only the loss to Nishikori came out of nowhere.
 
mike danny

mike danny

Bionic Poster
StrongRule said:
Because winning slams was much tougher back then. People are used to him winning a lot of slams now in the asterisk era. Back then there was a pretty strong Nadal in RG (which is not the case anymore), prime Nadal in USO, prime Murray on grass, Wawrinka was a challenge. There were different players who could fight for titles, and it makes sense that different players won. Only the loss to Nishikori came out of nowhere.
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Well, I did make abstraction of the Nadal losses.
 
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
mike danny said:
You do make a valid point, but 2014 and 2015, IMO, were visibly weaker than 2011-2013. I definitely wouldn't lump 2015 with years like 2011 and 2012 at all.
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What if 2014-2015 was actually as good as 2011-2012? How can we disprove it?
 
mike danny

mike danny

Bionic Poster
RS said:
What if 2014-2015 was actually as good as 2011-2012? How can we disprove it?
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Pretty easy. Federer and Nadal were clearly worse in 2014-2015 than in 2011-2012 even without taking Djokovic into account. Murray was also worse in 2015 than in 2012.
 
The Guru

The Guru

Legend
mike danny said:
You do make a valid point, but 2014 and 2015, IMO, were visibly weaker than 2011-2013. I definitely wouldn't lump 2015 with years like 2011 and 2012 at all.
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Visibly weaker than 11/12 but not 13 imo that was my point. I wouldn't lump any years ever with 11/12 in terms of quality they're by far the strongest years I've ever witnessed. Ultimately the reason we lump years together is just to make a helpful distinction on eras not because it actually means anything. I don't think 11-13 is a helpful distinction and I certainly don't think 14-present is a helpful distinction. 11-15 is ok 07-15 would also be reasonable but lumping in 14-15 with what came after is just nonsense meant to detract from Djokovic's accomplishments.
 
mike danny

mike danny

Bionic Poster
The Guru said:
Visibly weaker than 11/12 but not 13 imo that was my point. I wouldn't lump any years ever with 11/12 in terms of quality they're by far the strongest years I've ever witnessed. Ultimately the reason we lump years together is just to make a helpful distinction on eras not because it actually means anything. I don't think 11-13 is a helpful distinction and I certainly don't think 14-present is a helpful distinction. 11-15 is ok 07-15 would also be reasonable but lumping in 14-15 with what came after is just nonsense meant to detract from Djokovic's accomplishments.
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Obviously anyone who followed tennis wouldn't do that.

The career inflation era is easily mid 2016-present.
 
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
mike danny said:
Pretty easy. Federer and Nadal were clearly worse in 2014-2015 than in 2011-2012 even without taking Djokovic into account. Murray was also worse in 2015 than in 2012.
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People used to argue that Murray/Stan/Djokovic/Fed (rare here) were peak in 2015. 2014 was never part of the agenda but it was mostly about the field depth being one of the best.
 
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
The Guru said:
Visibly weaker than 11/12 but not 13 imo that was my point. I wouldn't lump any years ever with 11/12 in terms of quality they're by far the strongest years I've ever witnessed. Ultimately the reason we lump years together is just to make a helpful distinction on eras not because it actually means anything. I don't think 11-13 is a helpful distinction and I certainly don't think 14-present is a helpful distinction. 11-15 is ok 07-15 would also be reasonable but lumping in 14-15 with what came after is just nonsense meant to detract from Djokovic's accomplishments.
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2004-2005 is often considered here though. Even 2003 to the occasion. This makes it tricky.
 
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The Guru

The Guru

Legend
RS said:
2004-2005 is often considered here though. Even 2003 is to the occasion. This makes it tricky.
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I mean you can always dive deeper on this stuff and see why it doesn't work when you lump years together it's shorthand that's lacking context. Like I don't think 10 belongs with those years but since it's in the middle it gets included. These distinctions aren't something that should be taken all that seriously. Strong years have weak slams like say 07 AO. You can always delve into more detail.
 
S

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
The Guru said:
Visibly weaker than 11/12 but not 13 imo that was my point. I wouldn't lump any years ever with 11/12 in terms of quality they're by far the strongest years I've ever witnessed. Ultimately the reason we lump years together is just to make a helpful distinction on eras not because it actually means anything. I don't think 11-13 is a helpful distinction and I certainly don't think 14-present is a helpful distinction. 11-15 is ok 07-15 would also be reasonable but lumping in 14-15 with what came after is just nonsense meant to detract from Djokovic's accomplishments.
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When a version of Federer who isn't physically good enough to seriously compete in BO5 is your main rival, this is surely not a strong year. At least Federer in 2006 had a very strong Nadal on clay, at least one surface with a real rival.

Luckily, prime Wawrinka showed up once or twice in a year, otherwise it would have been even worse.
 
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
The Guru said:
I mean you can always dive deeper on this stuff and see why it doesn't work when you lump years together it's shorthand that's lacking context. Like I don't think 10 belongs with those years but since it's in the middle it gets included. These distinctions aren't something that should be taken all that seriously. Strong years have weak slams like say 07 AO. You can always delve into more detail.
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Yeah a lot of people tend to exclude 2010 I guess.

Don’t know how AO 2007 viewed as a slam actually. AO 2007 Gonzo is rated very highly too some say his QF/SF were up with the best big 3 matches and even his final performance has been rated at like a Fed AO 08/11 SF and Murray AO 13 F tier.
 
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