Was the match really that bad?

LetWinner

Rookie
I didn’t think the match was worth the watch, with its lineup that is really more like a M1000 QF and the inclusion of ADM, who is probably one of the toughest players to watch on tour, so I didn’t watch. I was curious how it went so I watched the highlights, and I’m not sure if there were more than 1 or 2 notable/memorable shots/rallies. Sinner seemed to hit much weaker than usual, and ADM was ADM. Maybe the balls/court are too slow. If the highlights were indicative of the match, it was an absolute snoozefest.
 
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norcal

Legend
Win or lose, with Carlos you're going to see some highlight reel shots every couple games. Sinner's great but he's mechanical and uncreative. ADM was being pushed around and couldn't do much. Pretty forgetable stuff really.

Carlos has me spoiled lol.
 

aldeayeah

G.O.A.T.
Just saw the end of 1st set/beginning of 2nd. It was indeed one dimensional, but Sinner showed pretty good level on return and from the baseline. His 1st serve % was low, but the ones that went in earned him easy points. De Minaur was... solid but toothless.
 

Rattie

Legend
I didn’t think either player played well, ADM was simply worse than Sinner. Certainly nothing much impressed me about Jannik’s performance. I’ve seen him play far better
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
I watched the 1st set and from memory neither of them held serve. When I saw the draw, I thought Alcaraz would walk it but he only made the QF.
 

Rattie

Legend
According to Craig O'Shannassy on the ATP site, DeMinaur hit 21 forehand errors and 1 winner, to go with 17 backhand errors and no winners. Sinner went 18 forehand errors and 4 winners, and 14 backhand errors and 2 winners. I didn't watch, but the stats say yes, it was that bad....
That fits with my impression. I’m glad Jannik won his first Masters but it did nothing to convince me he is going to start winning more big titles soon.
 

Clay lover

Legend
According to Craig O'Shannassy on the ATP site, DeMinaur hit 21 forehand errors and 1 winner, to go with 17 backhand errors and no winners. Sinner went 18 forehand errors and 4 winners, and 14 backhand errors and 2 winners. I didn't watch, but the stats say yes, it was that bad....
Wow that's horrible
 

Mike Sams

G.O.A.T.
Seems like Rogers Cup historically has become just a pitstop for players.
There has been a new finalist every year since the past 6 years.
And 2 new finalists the past 2 years with no real consistency among any of them.
 

Mike Sams

G.O.A.T.
According to Craig O'Shannassy on the ATP site, DeMinaur hit 21 forehand errors and 1 winner, to go with 17 backhand errors and no winners. Sinner went 18 forehand errors and 4 winners, and 14 backhand errors and 2 winners. I didn't watch, but the stats say yes, it was that bad....
Basically any of the big 3 could've just stepped in and demolished either of these guys in straights even now :-D
 

Krish0608

G.O.A.T.
That fits with my impression. I’m glad Jannik won his first Masters but it did nothing to convince me he is going to start winning more big titles soon.
Don't tell that to @dking68 . In his head Sinner is the hot favorite for the USO now and is going to have a 2003 Fed like run apparently. :-D
 

RS

Bionic Poster
According to Craig O'Shannassy on the ATP site, DeMinaur hit 21 forehand errors and 1 winner, to go with 17 backhand errors and no winners. Sinner went 18 forehand errors and 4 winners, and 14 backhand errors and 2 winners. I didn't watch, but the stats say yes, it was that bad....
Yikes
 

Clay lover

Legend
Actual W/UE count from live stream:

Sinner 15W (7FH 3BH 5 serve) 25UE (14FH 8BH 3DF), 30% unreturned serve %

De Minaur 3W (1FH 1BH 1 serve) 21UE (12FH 8BH 1DF), 9% unreturned serve %

Craig's charting seems pretty off to me
DeManure still pretty DeGarbo apparently
 

aldeayeah

G.O.A.T.
In a Masters 1000 final surely this is the worst performance ever no? Statistically at least
Dunno, W/UE statistics are a crapshoot. Maybe someone can check the Tennis Abstract raw database.

Perhaps Nadal on clay could have reduced some of his opponents to that kind of numbers?
 

aldeayeah

G.O.A.T.
The match was not pretty for what I saw, but once Sinner got his groove going on he completely denied AdM by taking away time, angles and free serve points.

I think he could have given anyone on tour a pretty tough match, although I'd favor a good playing Med over him because of the matchup (Med would be super happy to depth-bot down the middle all day and return from Pennsylvania)
 
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Federev

Legend
I didn’t think the match was worth the watch, with its lineup that is really more like a M1000 QF and the inclusion of ADM, who is probably one of the toughest players to watch on tour, so I didn’t watch. I was curious how it went so I watched the highlights, and I’m not sure if there were more than 1 or 2 notable/memorable shots/rallies. Sinner seemed to hit much weaker than usual, and ADM was ADM. Maybe the balls/court are too slow. If the highlights were indicative of the match, it was an absolute snoozefest.

I just hope Tommy Paul is still healthy enough to box Mark Zuckerberg in that celebrity match.

If he could beat Alcaraz, I’m putting big money on him to crush FB dude.
 

Torben

Semi-Pro
According to Craig O'Shannassy on the ATP site, DeMinaur hit 21 forehand errors and 1 winner, to go with 17 backhand errors and no winners. Sinner went 18 forehand errors and 4 winners, and 14 backhand errors and 2 winners. I didn't watch, but the stats say yes, it was that bad....
Wow!

Sure doesn’t make for good viewing.

I guess the biggest takeaway is Sinner won his first Masters title.
 

Torben

Semi-Pro
Seems like Rogers Cup historically has become just a pitstop for players.
There has been a new finalist every year since the past 6 years.
And 2 new finalists the past 2 years with no real consistency among any of them.
It’s a tournament where players look to get their feet wet in the beginning of this hard court swing.

Djokovic not playing didn’t surprise me.
 

heavyD

Semi-Pro
Both of the Canadian finals were terrible. Worst finals I have seen this year. Samsonova had a good excuse playing two matches within two hours but de Minaur was terrible as Sinner never had to break a sweat.
 
I didn’t think the match was worth the watch, with its lineup that is really more like a M1000 QF and the inclusion of ADM, who is probably one of the toughest players to watch on tour, so I didn’t watch. I was curious how it went so I watched the highlights, and I’m not sure if there were more than 1 or 2 notable/memorable shots/rallies. Sinner seemed to hit much weaker than usual, and ADM was ADM. Maybe the balls/court are too slow. If the highlights were indicative of the match, it was an absolute snoozefest.
I couldn't watch more than two minutes of the "highlights". One-dimensional, unimaginative, hit the ball over the net until the other guy makes an error, BS. You get more entertainment from a game in an Alcaraz match than from the whole highlights in this bore.
 
According to Craig O'Shannassy on the ATP site, DeMinaur hit 21 forehand errors and 1 winner, to go with 17 backhand errors and no winners. Sinner went 18 forehand errors and 4 winners, and 14 backhand errors and 2 winners. I didn't watch, but the stats say yes, it was that bad....
LOL
 

robyrolfo

Hall of Fame
Sinner's great but he's mechanical and uncreative...
First off, you can't hit as hard as Sinner does and be "mechanical." Something has to be loose and free flowing to get that kind of power.
Second, are drop shots and impressive 'gets" really that creative? Alcaraz's physical characteristics and his frequent use of drop shots make for some entertaining points, but he's not some sort of artistic genius.

I didn’t think either player played well, ADM was simply worse than Sinner. Certainly nothing much impressed me about Jannik’s performance. I’ve seen him play far better
Yes, ADM was quite bad, so what do you want Sinner to do? Sinner was trying to win his first M1000 title, he was a clear favorite, and his opponent wasn't on top form. That's actually a pretty tricky situation, and Sinner did well to just stay calm and do what he needed to do. If your opponent is having a bad day, unless you want to fool around and take some chances, the match is never going to be that great.

According to Craig O'Shannassy on the ATP site, DeMinaur hit 21 forehand errors and 1 winner, to go with 17 backhand errors and no winners. Sinner went 18 forehand errors and 4 winners, and 14 backhand errors and 2 winners. I didn't watch, but the stats say yes, it was that bad....
As @aldeayeah pointed out, these numbers seem way off. The post match stats on the TV feed had a lot more than 6 winners for Sinner, and they weren't all from aces, droppers and volleys...

I thought this was about the Montreal final :D
Yeah, I thought so as well. Because that was just abysmal.

I couldn't watch more than two minutes of the "highlights". One-dimensional, unimaginative, hit the ball over the net until the other guy makes an error, BS. You get more entertainment from a game in an Alcaraz match than from the whole highlights in this bore.
Not sure how much some of you understand the nuances of tennis. Sinner isn't simply "hitting the ball over the net until the other guy makes an error." If that's all you see in his game, maybe check out another sport...
 
Not sure how much some of you understand the nuances of tennis. Sinner isn't simply "hitting the ball over the net until the other guy makes an error." If that's all you see in his game, maybe check out another sport...
Sinner is much better than what he showed yesterday, even if he is no Alcaraz. Yesterday's match was pretty much like that, and that winners stat illustrates this clearly.
 

Rattie

Legend
Yes, ADM was quite bad, so what do you want Sinner to do? Sinner was trying to win his first M1000 title, he was a clear favorite, and his opponent wasn't on top form. That's actually a pretty tricky situation, and Sinner did well to just stay calm and do what he needed to do. If your opponent is having a bad day, unless you want to fool around and take some chances, the match is never going to be that great.
I don’t dispute what you say; I’m simply commenting that Sinner actually wasn’t playing that well. I wanted Jannik to win and I’m glad he did. I simply don’t see anything in that match which convinces me he has improved enough to win more big titles. Perhaps the confidence from this will translate, we shall see. Winning MC didn’t make much difference to Rublev.
Sinner got lucky as an in form opponent may have ended with him being on the receiving end of yet another finals loss. Let’s see how he does going forward, I’m quite happy to be wrong.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
I don’t dispute what you say; I’m simply commenting that Sinner actually wasn’t playing that well. I wanted Jannik to win and I’m glad he did. I simply don’t see anything in that match which convinces me he has improved enough to win more big titles. Perhaps the confidence from this will translate, we shall see. Winning MC didn’t make much difference to Rublev.
Sinner got lucky as an in form opponent may have ended with him being on the receiving end of yet another finals loss. Let’s see how he does going forward, I’m quite happy to be wrong.
Sinner has to beat Medvedev or Djokovic to prove that this win has any meaning.
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
I didn’t think the match was worth the watch, with its lineup that is really more like a M1000 QF and the inclusion of ADM, who is probably one of the toughest players to watch on tour, so I didn’t watch. I was curious how it went so I watched the highlights, and I’m not sure if there were more than 1 or 2 notable/memorable shots/rallies. Sinner seemed to hit much weaker than usual, and ADM was ADM. Maybe the balls/court are too slow. If the highlights were indicative of the match, it was an absolute snoozefest.


Couldn't disagree more personally. Watched it and loved the competitiveness. And I actually commented on how Sinner was hitting the ball. He definitely used more pace and variety in shots, but there was nothing 'weak' about it.
 

Topspin_80

Hall of Fame
Win or lose, with Carlos you're going to see some highlight reel shots every couple games. Sinner's great but he's mechanical and uncreative. ADM was being pushed around and couldn't do much. Pretty forgetable stuff really.

Carlos has me spoiled lol.
You are not alone.

In his short tennis life, he has produced more high lights, than the big 3 combined.

I hope he lasts a long time, we are really lucky having this player.
 
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robyrolfo

Hall of Fame
Sinner is much better than what he showed yesterday, even if he is no Alcaraz. Yesterday's match was pretty much like that, and that winners stat illustrates this clearly.
I see what you are saying, but my point is that yesterday was all about Sinner getting the win (his first at this level). He didn't have to make it pretty, he just had to secure the result, and ADM having such a bad day meant that Sinner could just keep it in 3rd gear and take the win. This was not the match to be judging Sinner's level by. He won a final 6-4. 6-1, and yet he is being criticized...

I don’t dispute what you say; I’m simply commenting that Sinner actually wasn’t playing that well. I wanted Jannik to win and I’m glad he did. I simply don’t see anything in that match which convinces me he has improved enough to win more big titles. Perhaps the confidence from this will translate, we shall see. Winning MC didn’t make much difference to Rublev.
Sinner got lucky as an in form opponent may have ended with him being on the receiving end of yet another finals loss. Let’s see how he does going forward, I’m quite happy to be wrong.
See above. That match couldn't have possibly convinced you (or anyone) of anything. How could it? How could winning 4 and 1 in pretty routine fashion (especially the second set), against a struggling opponent, ever be that convincing? Beating ADM was never going to make a statement or make people think Sinner took some big step forward, no matter what. He was supposed to win.

If anything, it just tells us that Sinner's baseline level of play (his aforementioned 3rd gear), is still pretty darn good.

And I also don't agree he got lucky that ADM wasn't playing well. Maybe (most likely) Sinner raises his game against a better opponent. And besides Murray being a walkover, his draw wasn't super easy. All of his opponents had the potential to be really tough matches, and he still came through with relative ease, only dropping a set to the in-form Monfils (who had just blown away Eubanks and Tsitsipas).

Sinner has to beat Medvedev or Djokovic to prove that this win has any meaning.
It only "means" he can win a M1000, because that's what happened. Nobody is ascribing any higher meaning to it...

Alcaraz isn't an artistic genius, says a post on TTW. This is one of those "art is subjective, but damn your take is objectively bad, mate" moments.
So running down and reaching really tough balls is "artistic" to you? Constant drop shots is artistic to you? You must have some pretty low standards.

(And let me just add something that I'm sure will be really well received on these boards: It's tennis. It's actually a fairly straightforward game, and there isn't as much room for "art" as some of you seem to think. Watch some amazing footballers/soccer players do some amazing things, and then you will see where art can be bought into a conversation about a sport).
 

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
According to Craig O'Shannassy on the ATP site, DeMinaur hit 21 forehand errors and 1 winner, to go with 17 backhand errors and no winners. Sinner went 18 forehand errors and 4 winners, and 14 backhand errors and 2 winners. I didn't watch, but the stats say yes, it was that bad....
Oh… wow…

I’m sure if you split that up into forced errors vs. unforced errors it won’t look as bad but yeah that isn’t great
 

Max G.

Legend
ADM has that effect on people. His defense is so good that he prevents a lot of winners, and manages to keep the point going, even when he's not playing that well otherwise. But at the top level - like against Sinner - he just doesn't have the offense to finish points himself.

So that leaves us with matches like this one, where whoever gets control of the point just can't dictate well enough to finish it. Sinner is better at it because he has a bit more firepower so he could get the occasional winner, which is why he won pretty comfortably in the end.

But there were plenty of points where, like... Sinner hits 3, 4 good shots, running Alex around, but just can't get a short ball out of him. Then Alex hits a good counterpunch shot, putting sinner on the defensive... ...but can't hit with enough power to finish the point, so he runs sinner around for 3-4 shots until Sinner gets back to neutral with a good shot. Eventually someone misses.
 
I see what you are saying, but my point is that yesterday was all about Sinner getting the win (his first at this level). He didn't have to make it pretty, he just had to secure the result, and ADM having such a bad day meant that Sinner could just keep it in 3rd gear and take the win. This was not the match to be judging Sinner's level by. He won a final 6-4. 6-1, and yet he is being criticized...
Do you know what a false dichotomy fallacy is? Why did yesterday have to be about Sinner getting the win vs Sinner getting the win and playing a great match? The match yesterday was crap, going by the highlights alone.
 
So running down and reaching really tough balls is "artistic" to you? Constant drop shots is artistic to you? You must have some pretty low standards.

(And let me just add something that I'm sure will be really well received on these boards: It's tennis. It's actually a fairly straightforward game, and there isn't as much room for "art" as some of you seem to think. Watch some amazing footballers/soccer players do some amazing things, and then you will see where art can be bought into a conversation about a sport).
LOL this is hilarious. Running down the balls is not what makes Alcaraz's game more satisfactory and pleasant to watch, it is his variety. Drop shots? You talk as if that is the only thing he does. It's precisely the fact that Alcaraz uses drop shots, lobs, volleys, and every other single shot in the arsenal, and that he has an attacking mindset and is unpredictable that makes him great. And yes, tennis can be an artistic sport for sure, if it is played with taste. The fact you think there is no room for "art" or creativity in tennis is what is the problem. Apparently, it is you who has the low standards.

One just has to head to Youtube and watch some highlights reels from different players to get an idea of which players are worth watching and which aren't. There is a reason Alcaraz (and Federer before him) have such a huge draw on audiences. People are not all idiots.
 
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