saram
Legend
would anyone here bet the mortgage on Fed really using a retail k90, as per Wilson's claims??????
Not a stock K90...lol.
would anyone here bet the mortgage on Fed really using a retail k90, as per Wilson's claims??????
Wilson and Federer have been proven guilty -- use pj and make the public think Federer was using an n90 or whatever. When they make the same claim this time again that Federer is using a retail Winson racquet (although they may be phrasing differently this time), people would reasonably question their credibility. Thye're guilty AGAIN until proven otherwise.
I think we're having semantic difficulties here. Instead of using the words "guilty" and "innocent", let's use "true" and "false". YES.....it is clear that Wilson falsly sold rackets that were used by Federer when they weren't (although there are some here who would even disagree with THAT claim too). But we do not judge "truth" based on previous statements. The truth or falsness of a statement is based on a specific statement. The statement in question is regarding the current racket - the K90. We cannot use previous statements to judge the "truth" or "falsness" on this specific question.
So where does that leave us? Yes, we can say that Wilson has not been honest in the past. But all that means is that those past statements were not true. Does that mean that Wilson has the propensity to lie.....yes. Does that mean that they necessarily ARE lying.....no. I use the word necessarily for a reason. Asking if anyone would "bet the mortgage" is missing the point. Those are probabilistic questions, not empirical ones. Asking the likelihood of something being true is different from asking if something is actually true. I think that the breakdown in communication about this issue is summed up by the lack of being able to make the aforementioned distinctions.
Is it likely that Wilson is lying? Sure, yeah.
Is Wilson ACTUALLY lying? We don't know. We need empirical evidence.
^^ This is the distinction that must be made.
Well said...are you a lawyer????
Nate is saying that Wilson sends Federer the same K90 as we can buy in the stores but that he then takes it and customizes it to Federer's exact liking (e.g, molds the exact grip size and shape Federer prefers, adds lead tape, etc.).So am I to understand that Nate is suggesting that Roger is not playing with a standard stick afforded to the general public as Wilson claims? Or, am I to understand that Nate customizes it in a way and he will not reveal the secrets? I guess we still don't know if Roger is playing with a stock/available stick as the general public can purchase....hmmm...
Nate is saying that Wilson sends Federer the same K90 as we can buy in the stores but that he then takes it and customizes it to Federer's exact liking (e.g, molds the exact grip size and shape Federer prefers, adds lead tape, etc.).
Is it likely that Wilson is lying? Sure, yeah.
Is Wilson ACTUALLY lying? We don't know. We need empirical evidence.
^^ This is the distinction that must be made.
Wilson, DID however, claim that Federer's K90 and the retail K90 sold in the stores ARE indeed identical.
In fact, I'd bet most people would prefer the retail K95 as it's much easier to use with it's lighter weight, more power, and open string pattern.
Yes, identical as in from the same mold (although this is marketing speek), but that is about it. But you know that.
Not one of the racquets used by the pros are on sale to the public, they are all customized for each pro player. What we are buying is a racquet from a similar mold or PJ made to look like the pro version. Most rec players would hurt themselves with the actual pro version racquets. Do you really think Rafa is playing with an identical Cortex Aero Drive you can go out and buy???
They all have their equipment customized (not just racquets), just like the NASCAR drivers cars or Pro golfers clubs, it how they make their living.
TennezSport
I don't think Wilson could have made what they said any clearer or blatant. Even a person with an IQ in the single digits would understand that the K90 they can buy in the stores is the same racquet that Federer uses. There's no amount of "twisting" that can change what they've stated about Federer's racquet being the same K90 that's sold in the stores. Any other meaning is nothing but a fantasy of your runaway imagination.
Exactly!
It is only BECAUSE Federer is NOT using a paintjob with the K90 that Wilson is making this kind of statement for the first time. They know that the public knows about paintjobs, which is why they went out of their way this time to make it abundantly clear that this time it's not a paintjob but the ACTUAL racquet that Federer uses and it's EXACTLY the same one that Federer pulls out of his bag. If Wilson had thought the public did not know about paintjobs, this would have been a very odd statement to make because then people would think - what do you mean "one of the very few times in history", and that's it's the "actual racquet used by Federer", and that it's "exactly the same one Federer gets"??? Aren't ALL racquets that we buy in the stores the actual and same exact ones that the pros use?
If it wasn't true, they wouldn't have gone way out of their way this time to say - HEY, THIS TIME IT'S NOT A PAINTJOB. IT'S THE ACTUAL ONE THAT FEDERER USES AND IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE ONE SOLD IN THE STORES.
How anyone can misinterpret this is beyond me.
May 24, 2004
Federer keeps abreast of technological advances
By Ashling O'Connor
There is a new weapon in the world No 1’s armoury
ROGER FEDERER’S game is already considered beautiful to behold. So it may come as a surprise that the world No 1 has had cosmetic surgery on his racket. When Federer, the Wimbledon and Australian Open champion, steps on court at Roland Garros this week in his bid for the French Open title, it will be with an injection of silicone implants in his graphite frame.
The 22-year-old from Switzerland hopes that the “molecular nanotechnology” will give him the edge he lacks on clay. In the past two years Federer has not made it past the first round of the French Open and this year’s draw potentially pits him against Gustavo Kuerten, the three-times winner, in the third round.
The revolutionary new technology developed over the past two years by Amer Sports, the company that owns the Wilson brand, involves the injection of silicone oxide crystals into the microscopic air pockets between the graphite fibres in an ordinary tennis racket. The result is twice the strength and twice the stability. Wilson claims that the racket is 22 per cent more powerful than carbon fibre.
“The racket is stiffer and more powerful. It’s more controllable because the silicone can be placed in certain spots,” Roger Talermo, chief executive of Amer Sports, said.
Federer has been practising with the new nCode Six One Tour racket — branded in his red and white national colours — for two months. It is his first change in model for six years. “He is completely happy,” Talermo said. “The top players are so picky, he would not put it in his hands if he was not 100 per cent confident.” Amer Sports, which also makes Atomic skis and Precor fitness machines, is the first tennis racket manufacturer to apply nanotechnology to its products. It initially injected silicone, best known for its use in breast implants, into its Double Core tennis balls, giving them durability beyond the standard set and a half of play. The technology has been used to improve ski wax and is being developed in the aerospace industry.
The company hopes that all its tennis players, including the Williams sisters and Justine Henin-Hardenne, the No 1-ranked female player, will be serving with silicone by the US Open in August. More than a third of tour professionals play with Wilson rackets. The racket will retail for £150.
Yes, but I would hope that the marketing people wouldn't put that "it's his first change in racquet in six years" in print without it having some shred of truth to it. I mean, they wouldn't want to so blatently open themselves up to lawsuits do they? But then again, this is a tennis racquet company, and like all the others, are guilty of the liberal use of paintjobs so they are accustommed to using a lot of marketing spin in their PR. Then again, these companies haven't exactly come out in writing stating that their sponsored pros DO NOT use paintjobs.
Yes it does, because that means it's the industry norm.the fact that the industry uses pj's does not make it ok for wilson to do so.
It is "irrefutable" because no one has yet been able to disprove it.your "irrefutable" evidence is a press release. that's not irrefutable. that's marketing.
I'm not sure why you continue to sing the same song over and over again as though you're trying to prove us wrong, when you have in fact said:
"Federer uses a K90 mold, but it's not out of the realm of possibility that the layup of his racquet is slightly tweaked to meet his specific specs for
flex, weight, balance, and weight distribution."
(This is just to be shared and discussed, without any flaming, trolling, or harassment--AT ALL. You can debate this topic all you want, but please do not cause fights or on-going arguments/problems here. (As many of the informative Federer threads have been deleted due to user politics.) Take that stuff outside of this thread, please.
I do NOT want this thread to become diluted, so please keep in mind what the OP asks.
Yes, he did, except that his was not the same one as the nCode nSix-One Tour sold in the stores, which is why Wilson never made that claim about the nCode nSix-One Tour as they have about the K90.Did Federer ever use the nCode Six-One Tour 90?
That post was from 5/24/04, well before the K90 was introduced and even before the nCode 90 hit the stores:Through out the years you've been lead back and forth to believe whatever they tell you in the news. Yet each new day, you come up with something a little different because the fact remains that it's ultimately all just a guessing game.
that's my point. maybe they are telling the truth but odds are they are not. just because wilson issues a press release proclaiming something does not mean it is true. a press release is not irrefutable evidence as some here think.
Fish and Tursunov aside, I'll stick to the thread title which is about Fed.
Just compare Fed's racquet with retail K90, do you see any visible physical differences? Please be honest on this one.
If no, then there is no empirical evidences that prove otherwise.
We can talk about layup all day but it is just speculation.
Yes, Fed did customise his racquets but the point Wilson is trying to say here is: Fed uses the retail k90 as the base racquet.
It's "irrefutable" in that this press release exists. Can you disprove that this press release exists? No? Then it is irrefutable that it exists and that this evidence does in fact exist. In contrast, there is zero evidence of any kind that Federer does not use a retail K90. The evidence does not even exist. Whereas, the press release that says he uses a retail K90 does exist. That makes it evidence - Exhibit A.it's one thing to have an opinion that fed uses a retail k90. everyone is entitled their opinion. it's quite another to use a press release as your "irrefutable" evidence to back up your opinion that fed uses a retail k90.
"Some people"? I think you're the ONLY one here suggesting that Federer's K90 uses the "PS 6.0 85 composite". That's nothing but unfounded speculation and I've seen nothing at all to convince me that could be even remotely true.Some people would say he is 'NOT using the retail k90 as the base' for his frames, while suggesting that he actually uses the PS 6.0 85 composite (which is known to have incredible ball feel because of the 17mm beam thickness) for his frames instead.
By the way, I am also venturing to say that his frames are also 17mm (like the PS 6.0 85, and not 17.5/18mm like the retail Tour 90s.
Well, most of us rec players on here have customized sticks as well. Once you add lead or an overwrap, you have customized it. From threads in the past from stringers that strung Rafa's stick. There is just a little lead on a stock APD ....
It's "irrefutable" in that this press release exists. Can you disprove that this press release exists? No? Then it is irrefutable that it exists and that this evidence does in fact exist.
maybe BP should have said "unrefuted" instead of "irrefutable"?
Which is why many believe Federer uses a retail K90 because the retail K90 is custom drilled to Federer's string pattern (4 crosses at the PWS) just like the one he uses.With regards to Feds racquet I believe that Greg Raven posted pictures of Feds racquet that shows it's customed drilled for a different string pattern. Point is that the racquets sold to the public are not the racquets the pros use in general.This is nothing new and has been going on for a long time.
He's using a custom mold, and the K Factor may be based on that mold. I was told 'no one is playing with Federer's racquet' and I choose to believe that comment was authentic. Would a racquet built to Federer's specs and desires really be that desirable/usable by the mass market?
Here you go. Both are 17mm.Can anyone confirm if the PS 6.0 85 is 16.5mm-17mm, while the N90/k90 are 17.5mm-18mm?
That's the point. The Original ProStaff was such a great racquet and has such a huge customer base, Wilson would be dumb to deviate from that winning formula. Thus, they will continue to make new versions of the PS 6.0 Original, the latest of which is the K90.why is the k6.1 tour different from all the new kfactor rackets?
it looks old school to me..
the composition is almost the same as the old pro staff...
maybe it is made based upon feds request to wilson???
just my opinion...
I think you left out the retail specs of the K90 that you claim RF is using.
This statement is still true, even if you quote places other than TW.A retail ProStaff Tour 90 is thinner than the retail nCode six-one Tour 90, yet TW says they're both 17mm. While the k90 is the thickest of them all (18mm.) Go figure, huh?
All 3 come out of the same mold so they are all the same thickness. Any differences in measured thickness only has to do with the thickness of each individual paintjob. The PS Tour 90 uses a thin matte paint, whereas, the K90 has a thick "plastic-like sheath" over it.A retail Pro Staff Tour 90 is thinner than the retail nCode six-one Tour 90, yet TW says they're both 17mm. While the k90 is the thickest of them all (18mm.) Go figure, huh?
Thanks for the measurements and for the pics.Some actual measurements with pictures of the following
racquets:
Measurements were taken at the throat and also at the PWS.
The following racquets were measured:
2 K90's
1 PS85 St. Vincent
1 PS85 w/tour 90 paintjob
1 PS85 w/classic paintjob
2 PS85 China
http://www.putfile.com/wonhandbh/images/158469
The K90, St. Vincent, PS85 w/tour90 PJ, & PS 85 w/classic PJ
were all about 18mm.
The 2 china PS85's were a little more than 17mm.
AlpineCadet, you have rock solid reasoning skills: In order to meet Federer’s requirements, plus successfully market the Pro Staff Tour 90, Wilson modified a Pro Staff 6.0 85 mold to include the tapered flanges on the throat, increased the head size to 90 sq.in., and made slight modifications to the PWS shape in order to make it look like a Tour 90 to the untrained eye.
After all that you still call the racquet PS85????